Testing of why [K] did not shut off cell.

I did some tests on why [K] did not shut off cell when Gas Feedback sensed an over pressure condition.  As it is difficult to get to all the connections on K3 Matrix Card and interface on K3 is only a few resistors and one 2n2222 transistor, I decided to build a bread board version of the interface.  Only other thing I need was +5v and ground and few jumper cables to hook everything up.  Below is the piece of circuit from figure 6 (K3) that I built.

When pressure is low (normal) the voltage on Pin 4 of the AND gate is 5-volts and cell is on.   When tank press is Over Pressure Limit, LED comes and both [K] and [11/12] changes state which should pull the input to Pin 4 AND low, so the cell turns off.  That was not happening.

To see what is happening I just need to monitor line to Pin 4 with a voltmeter and monitor the state of [K] which I also did with voltmeter as a double check.  With this setup I could also see the voltage levels of the input to the 2N2222 chip.  I set tank pressure to over pressure and voltage on Pin 4 stayed high at 5-volts even though K was now low, 0.75-volts.

I then lowered pressure on tank.  The LED dimmed but did not go out as it should.  I then checked the voltage on the [K] output pad of GSF1 and it was 8.2-volts. It appears I was getting feedback from the K3 circuit, but Pin 4 input was low 0.0-volts.  Lowering the input voltage to system did not cause LED to go off.  I expect this caused by having a 5-volt level system and 10-volt level system tied together.

From this is appears that we need a high input on [K] to turn cell off not a low input.  I had not notice this before as I am testing card on the desktop and did not have [K] connected.
 
I decide to do one more test as all I need to do move was the jumper from [K] to [11/12] then I did that the voltage on Pin 4 of AND went low when LED came on and it when high when LED went off.  I also did not have the feedback problem on [11/12] output that I had [K].

As this worked it should be fairly easy to fix on card.  Just swap connections to pins 5 and 6 on 37 pin connector and relabel pads on board.

NOTE:  I did also verify that LED on K3 actually went out when I connected jumper to the K input screw terminal for GSF1.  Which verifies all the VIC Matrix traces for the K] signal as well as the K interface on K3.

Note on another item. I did figure out what the Limit Selector switch does.  It allows you to look at either the current tank pressure or the the currently tank over pressure setting.  More detail in documentation I have written.  With fix to make [K] work I now have the lower part of board working and most of documentation for that part written including testing I did.  I do need to go back and correct a few things based on what I learned in these latest tests about the K 11/12 interfaces.

Caution:  This means if you build Gas Feedback card and  K3 the Gated Pulse Frequency Generator to match schematics the [K] interface will not work correctly.  Swapping labels [K] and [11/12] on Gas Feedback Schematic will fit problem as long as the output from the new labels go to output pins with old name. Reason for doing is you then have a [K] at the correct voltage levels.

OK so I am editing the gas feed back card here for power corrections

Can we recap or update

1 Matrix mainboard traces are there any changes for traces on matrix in regards to the gas feedback k or other as i have not edited it yet
2 GSFB1 I am making last set of corrections to gas feedback card

Dan

Earl

Updated Gas Feed Back version1  with the power changes

Attached here  GERBER

if any other changes to matrix or this board they are welcomed
I am nearly complete on the auto start and will send

Dan

If we swap K and 11/12 output pins on Gas FeedBack Card then traces for K on VIC Matrix are correct -
We do need to remove 11/12 trace on VIC Matrix going to VIC Board

Dan

I got thinking about fix above that work.  I guess how you fix interface problem depends on long range plans for the board / system.  The way it currently matches Stanley's schematic.  That makes sense as you would expect K to go low to turn something off and 11/12 to go high with over pressure.  The problem is an interface issue.   The fix above solves that problem. 

But you could leave board as is and swap the pins for K and 11/12 on VIC Matrix board but not change labels.  Then both boards would match schematics and you have fixed interface problem.  If you do this you just need to document change some place.  Your call which fix you use as you control the intended use of these boards.

If I understand your intent your want these boards to be a training tool.  Which means keeping them as close to Stanley schematics as possible could be a big factor.  If the intent is to always use them with VIC Matrix then change the VIC board to fix [K] problem may make the most sense.

ok checking

Yes as we are saying that [K] should be other interface and if you do this fix you change the trace at 37 pin connector to get in on the correct output pin to match the way the VIC Matrix is wired.  Then if you follow trace from pad to output pin everything has same name.

Re Matrix Main Board power Traces, bridges

Since I am going to edit the gas 11/12 off main board
can you indicate  on picture below
any trace jumpers you want put on
for power area and to the power card

i will do same time, welcome to add jumper switch or other if you feel needed
goal was to have 1st 2nd 3 third power redundancy ready incase of failure so one could jump to get
cell back running in case of short


Dan

I can to that.  VIC Matrix power traces will be easy as I know the pinout of power card.

I tried to test power card yesterday but there is something wrong.  As soon as I throw the switch to turn on power on board it pulls my power supply down to 4 .4 volts.  Have not yet trouble shot it other than looking at traces.  I think is is SCR connections but not sure.

Left side
Pin 1    Shunt
Pin 2   +12V   
Pin 3   +10V   
Pin 4   N/C
Pin 5    +5V   
Pin 6   N/C
Pin 7   GND
Pin 8   N/C
Right side
Pin 9    Shunt
Pin 10   N/C
Pin 11   +12V
Pin 12    N/C
Pin 13   +10V
Pin 14   N/C
Pin 15    +5V
Pin 16   N/C
Pin 17   GND
Pin 18   N/C
Pin 19   N/C
What we need to do is connect the 4 left side power lines to 4 right side power lines on VIC Matrix board.

The way Stanley’s power board is built right side is always on unless fuse blows.  Then you can turn left side on with switch.  I built my copy of board with 2 switches that turn the +12 in lines on/off and did not use fuse. Switches connect to power board. 

As all you need to do is switch +12v inputs to board switches could be on VIC Matrix instead of power board.

It looks like if you move current +12v input up then traces would be easy to add on right side like traces on bottom.

Dan I did get Stanley's power board working will post need changes later but wanted to let you know if you use Stanley's power board there is an issue with current VIC Matrix traces.

Consist the below as FYI as I do not recommend using Stanley's card with VIC Matrix. 

Issue is due to the SCR on Stanley's card if you provide  it exactly +12V then you will not get 10Volts out of 317 as the SCR drops the voltage output below 12v so there is not enough head room for the 317T to generate 10v (I got around 9.6)

The fix would be to provide Stanley's power card with with a higher than 12 volt input.  However, that means the way traces are drawn the 12V line to all the cards would be higher than 12-volts.  This also could be fixed by connecting 12v line to other boards to the 7812 voltage regulator directly below the 15 amp Fuse at to of board the way it's drawn in diagram above (way it is now).   If you then take 12V+ input from the 15 amp fuse that goes pin1 of 8712 and connect to both terminal screws above both +12v terminal screws you would have a different input lines for Stanley's card (see more below).

Now doing all this only makes sense if you are using Stanley's Power Card with the SCR.  However, when using the VIC Matrix board the SCR is not needed as you have already regulated the voltage to +12V with the 7812.

When using VIC Matrix I would recommend using a different version of the power card without the SCR.  You can even use Stanley's if you bypass the SCR.

After I wrote the above I realize that Stanley's power board actually produced the regulated +12 Volt using the SCR I think he most like used the 2 shunt lines (see connector list above) that go to the fuse and switch as the battery input to SCR Pin2 and that SCR Pin1 that goes to 317T is also goes to the 12V output diode but not through the fuse and Switch.  In that case the line from 15 amp fuse would go to the shunt pin inputs and not the 12V as these would be outputs (These are available on the 2 screw terminals above the 2 12v ones).  (This make Stanley's power board make more sense but is still do not recommend using it with the VIC Matrix as you would have 2 separate 12V active sources on same pins unless you add another switch).  Note:  I will write this all up in a document on power card so people understand what he was doing.

I hope all this not too confusing. 

Dan,

I have document some information on Stanley's power board based on my testing.  I have already completed and test the modification to first part needed make it work with existing VIC Matrix card.  Also include change information to make in work fully with VIC Matrix board include needed changes to VIC Matrix board.  Document will explain and fully make the above clearer.  I do plan to write this up in a different format assuming all changes to card are made.  Will be close to format I used for other cards describing inputs/out puts and controls.

CAUTION:  DO NOT use unmodified card with VIC Matrix and  DO NOT even hooking power up to it until until modify as it has a dead short.  Fortunately my power supply had over current protection and I did damage anything as I was testing card standalone.   Short exist on both sides of card.

Dan finally got around to looking at Gas Feedback Power correction.  There is another error one due to my sloppy drawing did not realize I had drawn over a connection point to resister.  Green in top picture show what I told you but I meant what is in the bottom picture.  I was just trying to connect both pin 4s of A38 and A39 to GND.  As it is we have GND and power both connected to same pin on A39.

Remove Yellow traces and Add red

Thanks Earl
reading through it now

Dan

So first since I am wanting  to edit the Matrix first so competed
can we show on picture these ?

Note Power source was a battery or alternator which runs above 12-volts typical 13-14-volts
our will of coarse be same but we have added  new power condition section on matrix main board
as you know on left of matrix card .
 
VIC Matrix Board
1.
Run traces from 15 AMP Fuse at top of power section to both the Screw Terminals above the +12V terminals
or to the Pins 1 and 9 of the 37-pin connector.  (This gets “battery power to card).

2
There also needs to be a new switch that switches off the 12v input power to the power connector. 
Switch needs to turn of the output the 7812 Regulator, below 15 Amp Fuse, to any power going to right. 

With Stanley Power card in place 12-volt power to those lines will be provided by the SCR.
 This will keep from having 2 active source providing 12-volts on the same lines.

=================
If you can show on picture these power trace changes or where you want switch  I can have all matrix changes completed next day

The Power Card
i am making current edit changes to traces and diodes,

So we get the silk marking in/out correct and new arrangement right

I have added pictures here  for the face panel switch to connect so people have a chance to follow

Earl can you show on the jump lines on picture 3 attached here  connection  from switches to board ,
and i will remark or check accordingly as word is challenging  to follow


Notes on this you  made
1
I believe into card was on pins 1 and 9 which
are connected through the shunts to the ON/OFF switch on left side and FUSE on right side.

2
The other side of switch is connected to the SCRs on PIN 2 which is the input.

3
 The output of SCR is on PIN 1 which goes to the input PIN 3 of the 317T and is 12V, as long as input to SCR is above approximate 13-volts due to voltage drop.  Voltage drop is standard in voltage regulator and must be accounted for.

Now to complete the card the card the output of the SCRs on PIN 1 needs to be routed past the switches to through the 12V diodes and out to output PINs 2 and 11.

 

Dan,

First Picture card and panel do not go together - wrong circuit that is the voltage amplitude control circuit.   I have never seen circuit for power card.

Here is the front panel connection - I did not attempt to land the 4 position lines on specify pads as there are no labels on the switch numbers - Pads are in pairs   As drawn is 1 B10, 2 B5, 3 A10 and 4 A5

Note:  I am assuming side A is the side with the Fuse as that would be side normally in use.

Second Picture is the Matrix changes Just for Stanley's Power Card

My plan for today is Modify and test 12V output line. Not concerned about it easy fix.  Hardest part will be switching diode directions.  Already did other 4 when I am done all three will be same directions with bar on connector side.

Pictures for the Assembled power card
i have here for those studying this

the pictures are taken to show the  face panels connections for cross checking what we are discussing

DD

noted like this ok i will mark sil and mark through holes etc

Re this
First Picture card and panel do not go together - wrong circuit that is the voltage amplitude control circuit. 
 I have never seen circuit for power card. ok  this is noted this was done by Alex petty , so if not related i put there now we can ignore it

Meyer work is funny that is why we review all some times the answers are in front of us  , hard part has been connect these dots

I will get a Schematic drawn up for the power card to it is in existence
Thanks
Dan

Earl Rest for matrix noted and will work through it I will re draw connections to face panel and board pic
 so it is more clear  for people to follow
thank you it all help people learn and us re view and find things we missed
please review pics above for things we missed

Hi Earl

I have gone the right the board i have here very close for the wiring to face panel
this is how one here is done, not sure if wrong ot need adjustment but this is a little easier to see

not sure what those blue line are in/out fb 37 
happy to accept corrections or edit before i do the gerbers matrix and power card finals

I welcome all comments if some thing comes to mind on this as we document
please also refer to zoomed in pics above

Dan

re the  4 position switch  what is it doing exactly ?
just switching between voltages?

Dan,

The Blue lines are 13/14 input to card from Battery/Alternator - I just finished testing card using them Set power supply at 13 volts - Then SCR puts out 12.12 volts on pins 2s and 11 of broad depending on side selected.    You do need to move trace going from pin 1 of SCRs off fuse and switch pads they go directly to 12 out diode.  This was in document I sent.

I now tested both sides of power out with modifications and the all work at this point even test that correct voltage appears on the pads for the four pin switches.

The four pin switch provide a way to monitor voltage going to the 10 and 5 volts output diodes as points connect to board side on diodes.  This then goes to test point so changes nothing but can tell if each regulator is working and level of output.

The attached Document is my first cut at describing the function of the board based on my testing.

This is a picture of the power board with Side A being tested (I am using switch instead of fuse).

Note:  The Lines On Matrix board from 15 Amp to pins 1 and 11 support the input power source.

Dan,

The way fuse and switch are wired in photo both sides of board would either always be ON or OFF as fuse and switch are in series.  I had assume only one side would be active at a time. If both side are active then you may not want to link the sides on the Matrix board the way I was suggesting.