one day at at time, one understanding at a time, one prayer at a time, one piece of wisdom at a time.
~Russ
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1250, on February 14th, 2018, 09:56 AM »
The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1251, on February 14th, 2018, 10:08 AM »
from the book, Hastings
"my opinion is that an excess charge is left in the coil when the input voltage is cut off,
at this point a spark appears and a huge induced E.M.F is created in the coil.
this E.M.F SHOULD disappear quickly ( showing up as a spike). However, the High
Voltage remains, Having the Period of the moving magnet. this indicates that the magnet
is "Pushing" an excess charge around in the coil, and this appears as excess current when
contact is re-established with the battery. "
while its ringing, you can " push" the voltage to one side. this i have seen. i need to look at this more closely.
The fact that it lasts the entire period of the moving magnet is the induction. this also can be observed.
This could be the SRF or the induction. Depending on the coil and the RPM. more thought here is needed.
"there is also the issue of the "anomalous" current which appears during the spark.
it is unclear from the photos whether this current appears in the coil, but it has the
proper sigh and magnitude to drive the magnet."
This needs to be looked at more closely. because yes. there is a big current spike. its fast too.
just some thoughts i wanted to remember later...
~Russ
"my opinion is that an excess charge is left in the coil when the input voltage is cut off,
at this point a spark appears and a huge induced E.M.F is created in the coil.
this E.M.F SHOULD disappear quickly ( showing up as a spike). However, the High
Voltage remains, Having the Period of the moving magnet. this indicates that the magnet
is "Pushing" an excess charge around in the coil, and this appears as excess current when
contact is re-established with the battery. "
while its ringing, you can " push" the voltage to one side. this i have seen. i need to look at this more closely.
The fact that it lasts the entire period of the moving magnet is the induction. this also can be observed.
This could be the SRF or the induction. Depending on the coil and the RPM. more thought here is needed.
"there is also the issue of the "anomalous" current which appears during the spark.
it is unclear from the photos whether this current appears in the coil, but it has the
proper sigh and magnitude to drive the magnet."
This needs to be looked at more closely. because yes. there is a big current spike. its fast too.
just some thoughts i wanted to remember later...
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1252, on February 14th, 2018, 11:06 AM »Last edited on February 15th, 2018, 09:07 AM
I'm going to try to answer my own questions now that i see things more clearly. ( edit 2-15-18, i was not thinking right so ignore theses thoughts till later posts starting at 2-15-18)Quote from ~Russ on February 5th, 2018, 09:44 PM 10. It did not change and is decaying at the same rate or close to it of the charge time. Even with current flowing in the wrong direction. it can only collapses as fast as the coil's inductance will let it.
11. The magnetic field is still going in the same direction it was applied but getting smaller now (decaying via the "resistance" of induction, and the resistance of the battery circuit)
12. No, The field is still the same polarity. until its totally gone, then it can revere if the time is great enough.
13. only after the total time it takes to decay the magnetic field that was built up in the coil. this also means the magnet is still going to go the same way it was until the field is decayed totally.
14. no, the current can be going the wrong way and the field will only decay faster i would guess. so the magnet can still go forward even though the current i s backwards for the time ti takes to decay. then at that point it will reverse and stop the magnet. but that time is longer normally if the RPM is fast enough. this is why bad brushes are good it fires very fast and the current will go backwards with out stopping the decay as fast.
15. i dont understand what i was asking lol
on a new thought, the same thing applies in the SRF mode.
The "ring" is just that its a ring between the coils self inductance and self capacitance, but the magnetic field is still there until it decays. so if you short the coil at any time during the ring down the current will still be in the same direction ( current will equal about the same amount of decay on the ring) . allays the case until the magnetic field is gone. The ring its self is the inertia its self of the "gyros" slamming to a stop.
more thoughts there but still looking at it more clearly.
see here for the correct thoughts on this. http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48424#msg48424
~Russ
If there is voltage and current in the coil from the battery, ( lets say 100V @ +1ma) and then we induce more voltage in the coil than we are putting in so that the current is going backwards, (110V @ -1ma) 10.what happens to the magnet field? 11.is it still going in the same direction or is is stopped / nall'd? 12.or is it reversed as the meters say (negative)?
13.If its reversed is the magnetic field also reversed? 14.dose the current need to be going in the correct direction to keep the magnetic field in the same polarity if there is 100V and +1ma already applied? 15.we never changed the polarity of the voltage applied, only the current direction?
all things that are slightly confusion. because yes, you can induce more current and voltage than it takes to run IN THE SAME DIRECTION,
BUT, the current is now going IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.... but yet the magnet still wants to spin? hummm...
that's something to think about, see if each of you can take on this questions. ( i labeled them for you )
~Russ
notes and shots from today attached HERE
11. The magnetic field is still going in the same direction it was applied but getting smaller now (decaying via the "resistance" of induction, and the resistance of the battery circuit)
12. No, The field is still the same polarity. until its totally gone, then it can revere if the time is great enough.
13. only after the total time it takes to decay the magnetic field that was built up in the coil. this also means the magnet is still going to go the same way it was until the field is decayed totally.
14. no, the current can be going the wrong way and the field will only decay faster i would guess. so the magnet can still go forward even though the current i s backwards for the time ti takes to decay. then at that point it will reverse and stop the magnet. but that time is longer normally if the RPM is fast enough. this is why bad brushes are good it fires very fast and the current will go backwards with out stopping the decay as fast.
15. i dont understand what i was asking lol
The "ring" is just that its a ring between the coils self inductance and self capacitance, but the magnetic field is still there until it decays. so if you short the coil at any time during the ring down the current will still be in the same direction ( current will equal about the same amount of decay on the ring) . allays the case until the magnetic field is gone. The ring its self is the inertia its self of the "gyros" slamming to a stop.
more thoughts there but still looking at it more clearly.
see here for the correct thoughts on this. http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48424#msg48424
~Russ
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1253, on February 14th, 2018, 12:07 PM »
Russ,
For me, your question and answer exercise in the previous posting is too difficult to understand. I am assuming it's all related to what the coil is doing as it interacts with the rotating rotor magnet. This is where a timing diagram illustrating the concepts would help. And if you actually were to do a timing diagram you might surprise yourself because then all of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle have to fit together.Quote Note during self-resonance the magnetic field completely disappears when the self-capacitance is at the peak voltage.
When you did the self-ringing tests for the coil I am under the impression that you just tapped the big coil for a second with voltage and then disconnected from the big coil and scoped the voltage swing on the coil as it rang at about 118 Hz. Then you worked the formula for LC resonance backwards and knowing the inductance of 4400 Henries you got a self-capacitance of 480 pF.
To get some insight into the amount of energy in the self-resonance, you could take the peak voltage that you observed when self-resonating and calculate the maximum energy stored in the self-capacitance of 480 pF. Then find out what the maximum self-resonant current would be for the 4400 Henry coil based on the same amount of energy.
I an going to guess that the equivalent self-resonant current would be minuscule. So when you say, "so if you short the coil at any time during the ring down the current will still be in the same direction" that may be true but the real question is what is the magnitude of that theoretical current compared to the typical current flow of a few mA through the coil during the normal operation of the pulse motor?
And I stress that this is "theoretical" current because when the coil is self-ringing there is actually no current flowing at each of the two terminals of the coil. So who is to say that when you short out a self-resonating coil that current will actually start flowing?
SS
For me, your question and answer exercise in the previous posting is too difficult to understand. I am assuming it's all related to what the coil is doing as it interacts with the rotating rotor magnet. This is where a timing diagram illustrating the concepts would help. And if you actually were to do a timing diagram you might surprise yourself because then all of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle have to fit together.
The "ring" is just that its a ring between the coils self inductance and self capacitance, but the magnetic field is still there until it decays. so if you short the coil at any time during the ring down the current will still be in the same direction ( current will equal about the same amount of decay on the ring) . allays the case until the magnetic field is gone. The ring its self is the inertia its self of the "gyros" slamming to a stop.
When you did the self-ringing tests for the coil I am under the impression that you just tapped the big coil for a second with voltage and then disconnected from the big coil and scoped the voltage swing on the coil as it rang at about 118 Hz. Then you worked the formula for LC resonance backwards and knowing the inductance of 4400 Henries you got a self-capacitance of 480 pF.
To get some insight into the amount of energy in the self-resonance, you could take the peak voltage that you observed when self-resonating and calculate the maximum energy stored in the self-capacitance of 480 pF. Then find out what the maximum self-resonant current would be for the 4400 Henry coil based on the same amount of energy.
I an going to guess that the equivalent self-resonant current would be minuscule. So when you say, "so if you short the coil at any time during the ring down the current will still be in the same direction" that may be true but the real question is what is the magnitude of that theoretical current compared to the typical current flow of a few mA through the coil during the normal operation of the pulse motor?
And I stress that this is "theoretical" current because when the coil is self-ringing there is actually no current flowing at each of the two terminals of the coil. So who is to say that when you short out a self-resonating coil that current will actually start flowing?
SS
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1254, on February 14th, 2018, 12:34 PM »
Russ,Quote With respect to a coil in a conventional sense, the spark is associated with having current flowing through the coil and then open-circuiting the coil. The coil then generates whatever voltage is required to keep the current flowing, and that voltage strips the electrons off of the various air molecules and turns the air into a conducting plasma. That conducting plasma might look like a resistor of several hundred ohms and so the stored energy in the inductor is burned off during the plasma spark.
So, during this spark process the current flow in the coil starts at the flow rate immediately before the spark, and then quickly decreases to zero, there is no "big current spike." I am not sure if this is a misconception that you picked up somewhere else or if it is a claim that is made in association with the Newman motor. Plus the big rotating rotor magnet and the mechanical energy it stores may come into play here.
In general, when you see a plasma spark being generated by a coil that is telling you that the current flow in the coil is quickly dropping to zero as the coil is drained of stored energy.
SS
"there is also the issue of the "anomalous" current which appears during the spark.
it is unclear from the photos whether this current appears in the coil, but it has the
proper sigh and magnitude to drive the magnet."
This needs to be looked at more closely. because yes. there is a big current spike. its fast too.
So, during this spark process the current flow in the coil starts at the flow rate immediately before the spark, and then quickly decreases to zero, there is no "big current spike." I am not sure if this is a misconception that you picked up somewhere else or if it is a claim that is made in association with the Newman motor. Plus the big rotating rotor magnet and the mechanical energy it stores may come into play here.
In general, when you see a plasma spark being generated by a coil that is telling you that the current flow in the coil is quickly dropping to zero as the coil is drained of stored energy.
SS
sonnet
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1255, on February 14th, 2018, 12:56 PM »
So who is to say that when you short out a self-resonating coil that current will actually start flowing?
correct me if you see errors in this.
If the coil goes into the short with a magnetic field left over from the 'run' (i.e. not totally decayed) then should we not have a static (fixed) potential when we get to the 'short'...(this is assuming the spark has not consumed all the left over field as I put it, if it has destroyed the field then this question is irrelevant).
So if we have got this far and we have a shorted coil, with a potential charge in it, we still have a rotating magnet inducing more voltage into the coil and along with that induced voltage a current...
have you any views on what starts to manifest from the shorted coil relationship to the rotating magnet.
regards
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1256, on February 14th, 2018, 01:00 PM »
Russ,
For me, your question and answer exercise in the previous posting is too difficult to understand. I am assuming it's all related to what the coil is doing as it interacts with the rotating rotor magnet. This is where a timing diagram illustrating the concepts would help. And if you actually were to do a timing diagram you might surprise yourself because then all of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle have to fit together.
Note during self-resonance the magnetic field completely disappears when the self-capacitance is at the peak voltage.
When you did the self-ringing tests for the coil I am under the impression that you just tapped the big coil for a second with voltage and then disconnected from the big coil and scoped the voltage swing on the coil as it rang at about 118 Hz. Then you worked the formula for LC resonance backwards and knowing the inductance of 4400 Henries you got a self-capacitance of 480 pF.
To get some insight into the amount of energy in the self-resonance, you could take the peak voltage that you observed when self-resonating and calculate the maximum energy stored in the self-capacitance of 480 pF. Then find out what the maximum self-resonant current would be for the 4400 Henry coil based on the same amount of energy.
I an going to guess that the equivalent self-resonant current would be minuscule. So when you say, "so if you short the coil at any time during the ring down the current will still be in the same direction" that may be true but the real question is what is the magnitude of that theoretical current compared to the typical current flow of a few mA through the coil during the normal operation of the pulse motor?
And I stress that this is "theoretical" current because when the coil is self-ringing there is actually no current flowing at each of the two terminals of the coil. So who is to say that when you short out a self-resonating coil that current will actually start flowing?
SS
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1257, on February 14th, 2018, 01:03 PM »Last edited on February 27th, 2018, 03:57 PM
I agree with you there SS.
correct me if you see errors in this.
If the coil goes into the short with a magnetic field left over from the 'run' (i.e. not totally decayed) then should we not have a static (fixed) potential when we get to the 'short'...(this is assuming the spark has not consumed all the left over field as I put it, if it has destroyed the field then this question is irrelevant).
So if we have got this far and we have a shorted coil, with a potential charge in it, we still have a rotating magnet inducing more voltage into the coil and along with that induced voltage a current...
have you any views on what starts to manifest from the shorted coil relationship to the rotating magnet.
regards
Don't forget. Madder in motion tents to stay in motion. This IS the magnetic feild. It has mass via inertia. This is why the current still gose in the same direction.
~Russ
sonnet
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1258, on February 14th, 2018, 01:09 PM »
The reasion I say that current keeps goong in the same direction is that I have seen this time and time again on my scope shots. I'll post some.
Don't forget. Matter in motion tends to stay in motion. This IS the magnetic field. It has mass via inertia. This is why the current still goes in the same direction.
So our magnetic field is growing again????
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1259, on February 14th, 2018, 01:11 PM »
Cool, so the voltage does grow??? so we have current.
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48397#msg48397
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1260, on February 14th, 2018, 01:18 PM »Last edited on February 14th, 2018, 01:20 PM
from the book, Hastings
"my opinion is that an excess charge is left in the coil when the input voltage is cut off,
at this point a spark appears and a huge induced E.M.F is created in the coil.
this E.M.F SHOULD disappear quickly ( showing up as a spike). However, the High
Voltage remains, Having the Period of the moving magnet. this indicates that the magnet
is "Pushing" an excess charge around in the coil, and this appears as excess current when
contact is re-established with the battery. "
while its ringing, you can " push" the voltage to one side. this i have seen. i need to look at this more closely.
The fact that it lasts the entire period of the moving magnet is the induction. this also can be observed.
This could be the SRF or the induction. Depending on the coil and the RPM. more thought here is needed.
~Russ
see the tail end of ring? it is " pushed" in to the direction of the induced field.
the timing was just right here to see that. the right gap size and the right induction time.
and its even above the voltage of the battery in this case...
~Russ
~Russ
Voltage here, voltage there, voltage everywhere...
Voltage being a differential between two measurement points describing the difference in dielectric potential.
We need to be a bit more careful when we throw the term "voltage" around.
We know these fields are composed of waves of energy, so we must precisely indicate the two reference points where we take a voltage measurement. We look at the oscilloscope and say, "Aah-haa, we have a voltage here", but mechanically what does that really mean? It could mean the potential changed at one of the measurement points, or the other, or both. If it's both, then there are two different energy waves passing by each of the measurement points. We only see the sum or the difference of these two waves. If we assume there is only one energy wave, we could be very incorrect in our thinking. I'm rather certain this is why many of the Russian researchers prefer to look at the current, a single point where we measure the flow and direction. We can add multiple current probes to get an indication if there are multiple energy waves in motion.
Voltage being a differential between two measurement points describing the difference in dielectric potential.
We need to be a bit more careful when we throw the term "voltage" around.
We know these fields are composed of waves of energy, so we must precisely indicate the two reference points where we take a voltage measurement. We look at the oscilloscope and say, "Aah-haa, we have a voltage here", but mechanically what does that really mean? It could mean the potential changed at one of the measurement points, or the other, or both. If it's both, then there are two different energy waves passing by each of the measurement points. We only see the sum or the difference of these two waves. If we assume there is only one energy wave, we could be very incorrect in our thinking. I'm rather certain this is why many of the Russian researchers prefer to look at the current, a single point where we measure the flow and direction. We can add multiple current probes to get an indication if there are multiple energy waves in motion.
sonnet
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1262, on February 14th, 2018, 01:21 PM »
while its ringing, you can " push" the voltage to one side. this i have seen. i need to look at this more closely.
sorry i just want to be clear on this russ...
and I do second SS statement when we are batting statements about it would be great to emphasis where the statement relates to 'run' or 'short'
to keep me lol if not all others in the picture clearly.
Regards
sonnet
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1263, on February 14th, 2018, 01:30 PM »
ok, you made this more clear,....matt has a good point...
and my use of terminology i admit is poor..
I should say we enter the short with a stored/static charge??? yer
and we have a voltage when the current is flowing???? yer
and my use of terminology i admit is poor..
I should say we enter the short with a stored/static charge??? yer
and we have a voltage when the current is flowing???? yer
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1264, on February 14th, 2018, 01:33 PM »
from that last link your statement above relates to "short" or "run"
sorry i just want to be clear on this russ...
and I do second SS statement when we are batting statements about it would be great to emphasis where the statement relates to 'run' or 'short'
to keep me lol if not all others in the picture clearly.
Regards
see my scope short here ( posted while you were typing probably) http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48407#msg48407
sonnet
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1265, on February 14th, 2018, 01:35 PM »
lol, yer gottcha bud thxs
sonnet
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1266, on February 14th, 2018, 01:42 PM »Last edited on February 14th, 2018, 02:08 PM
so the voltage (in the short) should steadily increase over time (as the rotor revolves more and more), building our magnetic field with time to a greater level...?????
This assumes we leave the short with a quantity of magnetic field as well, without it being lost to the spark/battery...my thinking the battery would have resistance so field drop would be restrained and speed of rotor will be needed...
It would be nice if and when time is ready we could search for the evidence of this...
This assumes we leave the short with a quantity of magnetic field as well, without it being lost to the spark/battery...my thinking the battery would have resistance so field drop would be restrained and speed of rotor will be needed...
It would be nice if and when time is ready we could search for the evidence of this...
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1267, on February 14th, 2018, 03:01 PM »
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1268, on February 14th, 2018, 03:10 PM »Last edited on February 14th, 2018, 04:53 PM
Sonnet,Quote When the coil has current circulating through it during the shorting phase then we can say that there is no voltage across the inductance, but at the same time there will be a measurable voltage drop across a given length of wire due to the resistance of the wire. The two things are happening at the same time.
ADDENDUM: A correction is in order here. From above, the current in the coil is decreasing, and therefore the current is changing. That means that by definition the coil is generating an EMF. However that EMF voltage is the same voltage that is dropping across the distributed resistance of the wire itself. So you have a voltage drop per unit length of wire, but when you go "full circle" though the full length of the coil you arrive at a place at the same potential from where you started (you are back at the same place.)
I think a related concept related to inductors in general that people may have difficulty in understanding relates to the voltage across an inductor. Suppose we imagine an ideal inductor with no resistance in the wires. Then a general statement is that when there is a DC current flowing through the inductor then there is no voltage across the inductor. So making a short across the inductor would apply in this case. It's only when the current is changing through the inductor with respect to time do you see voltage across the two terminals of the inductor. Since an inductor is a current-based device it is also appropriate to say that an inductor is never a source of voltage per se. Rather, when an inductor is connected to a voltage source and absorbing energy, it's the voltage source that determines the voltage across the inductor. Of course that seems like a sensible statement. On the other hand, when the inductor is discharging energy, it's the load across the inductor terminals that determines the voltage, not the inductor itself. So in a sense, an inductor almost "doesn't care" what the voltage across the inductor terminals are, that is always determined by external factors. This all makes sense once you understand inductors because they are current-based devices. I don't know if what I posted helped or confused but that's the way it is. When in doubt, going back to the flywheel analogy (voltage = torque, current = RPM) can really help because then it is much easier to visualize these concepts.Quote In the conventional electronics universe, you have to say, "with current flowing through it" because "a potential charge in it" is meaningless with respect to an inductor. But I still understand what you are trying to say, which is that there is energy in the coil.Quote Yes, I do have some views but I would give myself a "B" on visualization, and not an "A+." Here is what I see: (I have a "B" so I might be wrong but my confidence is reasonably high)
Let's say the coil is pointing north towards the rotor magnet, and the rotor magnet itself has a north approaching the coil. Well, we know that north repels north, so the rotor magnet will slow down due to magnetic repulsion. What about the current in the coil? The answer is that the current flow in the coil will increase.
Assuming that I am correct, why is that? And as you can imagine there are different combinations of north and south and approaching and receding between the coil and rotor magnet and I am not going to answer them all.
Note this relates directly to my bare-bones experiment which so far nobody has commented on. Hence understanding the bare-bones experiment would be good for all interested parties.
SS
If the coil goes into the short with a magnetic field left over from the 'run' (i.e. not totally decayed) then should we not have a static (fixed) potential when we get to the 'short'...(this is assuming the spark has not consumed all the left over field as I put it, if it has destroyed the field then this question is irrelevant).
So if we have got this far and we have a shorted coil, with a potential charge in it, we still have a rotating magnet inducing more voltage into the coil and along with that induced voltage a current...
have you any views on what starts to manifest from the shorted coil relationship to the rotating magnet.
ADDENDUM: A correction is in order here. From above, the current in the coil is decreasing, and therefore the current is changing. That means that by definition the coil is generating an EMF. However that EMF voltage is the same voltage that is dropping across the distributed resistance of the wire itself. So you have a voltage drop per unit length of wire, but when you go "full circle" though the full length of the coil you arrive at a place at the same potential from where you started (you are back at the same place.)
I think a related concept related to inductors in general that people may have difficulty in understanding relates to the voltage across an inductor. Suppose we imagine an ideal inductor with no resistance in the wires. Then a general statement is that when there is a DC current flowing through the inductor then there is no voltage across the inductor. So making a short across the inductor would apply in this case. It's only when the current is changing through the inductor with respect to time do you see voltage across the two terminals of the inductor. Since an inductor is a current-based device it is also appropriate to say that an inductor is never a source of voltage per se. Rather, when an inductor is connected to a voltage source and absorbing energy, it's the voltage source that determines the voltage across the inductor. Of course that seems like a sensible statement. On the other hand, when the inductor is discharging energy, it's the load across the inductor terminals that determines the voltage, not the inductor itself. So in a sense, an inductor almost "doesn't care" what the voltage across the inductor terminals are, that is always determined by external factors. This all makes sense once you understand inductors because they are current-based devices. I don't know if what I posted helped or confused but that's the way it is. When in doubt, going back to the flywheel analogy (voltage = torque, current = RPM) can really help because then it is much easier to visualize these concepts.
So if we have got this far and we have a shorted coil, with a potential charge in it
So if we have got this far and we have a shorted coil, with a potential charge in it, we still have a rotating magnet inducing more voltage into the coil and along with that induced voltage a current...
have you any views on what starts to manifest from the shorted coil relationship to the rotating magnet.
Let's say the coil is pointing north towards the rotor magnet, and the rotor magnet itself has a north approaching the coil. Well, we know that north repels north, so the rotor magnet will slow down due to magnetic repulsion. What about the current in the coil? The answer is that the current flow in the coil will increase.
Assuming that I am correct, why is that? And as you can imagine there are different combinations of north and south and approaching and receding between the coil and rotor magnet and I am not going to answer them all.
Note this relates directly to my bare-bones experiment which so far nobody has commented on. Hence understanding the bare-bones experiment would be good for all interested parties.
SS
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1269, on February 14th, 2018, 03:27 PM »
Russ,Quote I looked and the data is all over the map. I picked the first reading of 3.8 KV peak-to-peak which is the highest of all of the readings and sounds high but let's run with it. L = 4400 Henries, C = 480 pF.
480 pF @ 1.9 KV = 866 micro Joules.
E = 1/2 L i^2
2E = L i^2
i^2 = 2E/L
i = SQRT(2E/L)
i = 0.627 mA
If the peak-to-peak voltage is correct, then the current is reasonably high relative to the normal operating current of the coil.
See the white board a few posts back. I have the pk - pk voltage there in green. You can do that calualtion.
480 pF @ 1.9 KV = 866 micro Joules.
E = 1/2 L i^2
2E = L i^2
i^2 = 2E/L
i = SQRT(2E/L)
i = 0.627 mA
If the peak-to-peak voltage is correct, then the current is reasonably high relative to the normal operating current of the coil.
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1270, on February 14th, 2018, 04:14 PM »
Russ,Quote I can't see current DC current flowing in a coil with a presumably smaller AC ringing current superimposed on the DC current and that AC current is associated with the self-resonance of the coil. I think it is more like the coil is in self-resonance, or DC current is flowing through it, or current is changing in one direction only, or there is no current flowing through the coil. I view those four cases as normally mutually exclusive.
SS
This is why the current still gose in the same direction. Even while it is ringing.
SS
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1271, on February 14th, 2018, 04:33 PM »
Okay, so it's the "Revenge of Bare-Bones Time #1."
Take a simple fist-sized air-core pulse motor coil: <12-volt power supply +ve> --> <coil> --> <transistor switch> --> <Ground>
The transistor is switched on with a one-shot 0.1 second pulse. The coil has a reverse-biased diode across it to discharge the coil after the pulse.
Test A: Pulse the coil.
Test B: Put a 1" neo magnet an inch away from the coil and pulse the coil. Observe the magnet get kicked away from the coil by about six to ten inches.
So, there is your absolute barest bones test that emulates the essence of what we were just talking about. So the question is can you explain the energy dynamics for the two tests and can you explain the differences (if any) between the two tests?
So, part of the answer is that when you do Test B with the added neo magnet, the current draw of the coil goes DOWN.
So why is that? What's going on? What about the other questions? Anybody willing to take a stab so we learn about how a pulse motor works?
SS
Take a simple fist-sized air-core pulse motor coil: <12-volt power supply +ve> --> <coil> --> <transistor switch> --> <Ground>
The transistor is switched on with a one-shot 0.1 second pulse. The coil has a reverse-biased diode across it to discharge the coil after the pulse.
Test A: Pulse the coil.
Test B: Put a 1" neo magnet an inch away from the coil and pulse the coil. Observe the magnet get kicked away from the coil by about six to ten inches.
So, there is your absolute barest bones test that emulates the essence of what we were just talking about. So the question is can you explain the energy dynamics for the two tests and can you explain the differences (if any) between the two tests?
So, part of the answer is that when you do Test B with the added neo magnet, the current draw of the coil goes DOWN.
So why is that? What's going on? What about the other questions? Anybody willing to take a stab so we learn about how a pulse motor works?
SS
itzon
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1272, on February 14th, 2018, 04:52 PM »
Suppose we imagine an ideal inductor with no resistance in the wires. Then a general statement is that when there is a DC current flowing through the inductor then there is no voltage across the inductor. So making a short across the inductor would apply in this case. It's only when the current is changing through the inductor with respect to time do you see voltage across the two terminals of the inductor. Since an inductor is a current-based device it is also appropriate to say that an inductor is never a source of voltage per se. Rather, when an inductor is connected to a voltage source and absorbing energy, it's the voltage source that determines the voltage across the inductor. Of course that seems like a sensible statement.
SS
SqueezingSparks
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1273, on February 14th, 2018, 05:06 PM »
Itzon:Quote An inductor is very difficult for many people to understand. Hence it is not surprising that you call them falsehoods. If you want no resistance you can look at a superconducting inductor. Not exactly something that you can play with on the bench, but you can discuss wire with zero resistance in terms of an inductor.
As far as an inductor not being a source of voltage goes, of course any device that outputs electrical power outputs a combination of voltage and current, that is a given. But this is all about a deeper understanding of how an inductor works. Is it a device that outputs voltage or is it a device that will produce a variable voltage as a response to external conditions? It is a subtle difference that can be understood. For example, if you short it it outputs no voltage at all. When it comes to outputting infinite voltage, that is theoretical. But here is the key thing: The inductor has the capability to output infinite voltage but in the real world it's impossible to have a load condition that results in an infinite voltage being output. However, you can have a load condition that gives you very very high voltages.
All of this makes sense if you can adopt and embrace the flywheel analogy and think various examples through to a successful conclusion. It allows you to avoid the math, which I assume many will appreciate.
SS
I know this is what is taught in EE, but it is horroriblly incorrect. It is pure fantasy to say an inductor has no resistance. It is not appropriate to say that an inductor can not be a source of voltage, just as much that a voltage can go to infinity during certain conditions. How can you blindly accept these falsehoods?
As far as an inductor not being a source of voltage goes, of course any device that outputs electrical power outputs a combination of voltage and current, that is a given. But this is all about a deeper understanding of how an inductor works. Is it a device that outputs voltage or is it a device that will produce a variable voltage as a response to external conditions? It is a subtle difference that can be understood. For example, if you short it it outputs no voltage at all. When it comes to outputting infinite voltage, that is theoretical. But here is the key thing: The inductor has the capability to output infinite voltage but in the real world it's impossible to have a load condition that results in an infinite voltage being output. However, you can have a load condition that gives you very very high voltages.
All of this makes sense if you can adopt and embrace the flywheel analogy and think various examples through to a successful conclusion. It allows you to avoid the math, which I assume many will appreciate.
SS
~Russ
Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #1274, on February 14th, 2018, 05:31 PM »
SS while your thinking about flywheels...
think about spin with in that flywheel...
the flywheel as a whole will rotating but the atoms them self's are also rotating with in that rotation... and they can be deflected... this is a key importance in understanding behind the stranded model.
~Russ
think about spin with in that flywheel...
the flywheel as a whole will rotating but the atoms them self's are also rotating with in that rotation... and they can be deflected... this is a key importance in understanding behind the stranded model.
~Russ