Haxar,

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Pulse/resonate the coil at SRF of 110Hz and make the magnet move, without additional input.

Not sure what you mean because the pulsing of the coil is an input that is supplying energy to the coil.

SS

So why does the current consumption of the coil go down when you pulse it and it pulses on the neo magnet and kicks it away from the coil?

This is an application of Lenz's law, something that is talked about almost obsessively among free energy enthusiasts.

Suppose you had the neo magnet in your hand and the coil was connected to a load resistor.  Then if you moved the magnet back and forth in front of the coil you would feel the resistance to movement in your hand because of Lenz's law.  You moving the magnet with your hand turns the coil into a generator coil and the coil generates EMF and that pushes current through the resistor.  So your moving hand is the power source and power flows from your hand into the load resistor because of Lenz's law.

When you pulse the coil essentially the same thing is happening but this time power is flowing from the coil into the magnet and kicking the magnet away and therefore putting mechanical energy into the magnet.

Let's say current flows clockwise through the coil and that generates a north that faces the neo magnet.  Well then obviously the neo magnet has a north facing the coil because it gets pushed away:

[S **COIL** N]     [N **NEO** S]

So the neo magnet gets kicked away to the right.

[S **COIL** N]     [N **NEO** S]

So the neo magnet gets kicked away to the right.

So now let's apply Lenz's law to this situation.  As the neo magnet moves away from the coil, the coil sees increasing north flux because as the neo magnet moves away there is decreasing flux cancellation from the north flux coming from the neo magnet.

So, the coil sees increasing north flux and therefore from Lenz's law there must be an EMF induced in the coil to decrease the north flux in the coil.  Effectively the EMF acts to generate south flux in an attempt to cancel out the increasing north flux.

Therefore if we are applying 12 volts and that causes clockwise current flow to generate a north, then the EMF wants to cause counter-clockwise current flow to generate a south.   That means that the EMF acts against the 12-volt supply and effectively subtracts from the voltage applied to the coil by the power supply.

In other words, if the power supply is supplying +12 volts to the coil, then at a certain point in time there is -2 volts of EMF induced in the coil from the receding neo magnet.   Therefore with less net voltage of +10 volts applied to the coil, the current draw of the coil goes DOWN when the coil pulses and kicks the neo magnet away.

This is how a pulse motor works and this is how a Newman pulse motor works.

So, that is the explanation for the current draw for the coil decreasing when the neo magnet is kicked away.  In other words, when you have a motoring effect where the pulsed coil makes a magnet move away (like in a conventional pulse motor) the current draw of the drive coil goes DOWN because the EMF induced in the coil from the moving neo magnet reduces the effective voltage applied across the coil by the power supply.

So, that's only half the story.  Any takers to complete the story and explain the full energy dynamics for when the coil kicks the neo magnet away?

SS

Isn't that only 1/4 the story? The magnet in the Newman replication motor returns, after all. In your thought experiment, it doesn't. To fully account for energy flow, we must account for the full cycle (2 of them per revolution).

The remaining cycle should be as follows:
Once the magnetic rotor aligns with the coils generated magnetic field,
the rotor has momentum due to the weight to carry it past the alignment
phase.  Then when the segment comes up with the blank the coils field
starts to collapse without any back EMF.  At the same time with the coil
circuit open, the magnetic rotor can swing past the coil without Lenz law
affecting the magnets motion. The next phase will be the short.  When the
rotor reaches the correct place the commutator shorts the coil using the
energy from the still collapsing field in the coil.  When this happens the coil
produces an opposite magnetic field than it had when it was connected to
the batteries.  Thereby pulling the rotor back into a vertical position.  Once
the rotor reaches this position, the momentum from the flywheel/rotor carries
it past the vertical position and to the next phase.  That should complete the
picture.

Quote

SS

So, that's only half the story.  Any takers to complete the story and explain the full energy dynamics for when the coil kicks the neo magnet away?

You might be alluding to negative resistance in arc phase. The subject in wiki has a lot of math a day or two to program for various solid state devices. Not so common applied to mechanical generators though coil oscillation is treated.

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"Resistance can be linear or non-linear in nature, but never negative. Linear resistance obeys Ohm’s Law as the voltage across the resistor is linearly proportional to the current through it. Non-linear resistance, does not obey Ohm’s Law but has a voltage drop across it that is proportional to some power of the current."

"Resistance is pure and is not affected by frequency with the AC impedance of a resistance being equal to its DC resistance and as a result can not be negative. Remember that resistance is always positive, and never negative".

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/dccircuits/dcp_1.html

Not much reference to the use in mechanical motor generators (except in the coil or arc component independently) .

The link though describes conductance in Siemens with reciprocal resistance for very low voltage conditions.

Not to get overly complicated or off the topic a physical I/0 or OU can be confirmed and compared to the theory and is why
we make empirical research experiments. So you can calculate the physical watt output (of the magnet sliding across the table)
 or measure it and compare it to the theoretical electrical watt output.

 

Cycle,

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Isn't that only 1/4 the story? The magnet in the Newman replication motor returns, after all.

It's a simplified example that can be applied to the Newman motor.  But following your train of thought and dropping a hint, it's only 1/8 of the story.

Repeating the question:  Any takers to complete the story and explain the full energy dynamics for when the coil kicks the neo magnet away?

SS

Quote

Repeating the question:  Any takers to complete the story and explain the full energy dynamics for when the coil kicks the neo magnet away?

SS

What you are asking can be accomplished given the time and knowledge and dependent on that supply.

If you speak of describing the complete functioning of the mechanism then you are delving into the realm of modeling for it is merely a description and not a physical item itself.

Modern prototyping makes use of virtual modeling and that is constructed on the framework of a mathematical model. It then follows that the mathematical model should have a high degree of accuracy in its description of reality.

Of course the description can not be complete in the sense that a complete description is by definition ad infitum.

Talisman
I would agree and a fairly complete description can be found in any common textbook on induction motor-generators. In fact I used to build my own grid and island  mode induction generators for fun... and it was fun. For instance when the load exceeds the capacitance required to store the reactive current the system crashes. When it does it can oscillate independently at the LC of the stator-external capacitor outside the context of the grid current developing high voltages as a parallel-series resonant circuit. This is why hands on will always Trump textbook theory. I also found I could ping the pole transformer and detect it's reflection which was kind of neat. In affect we are limited only by our imagination not textbook theory.

What is missing in the discussion is discussing what is going on with the voltage to complete the picture.

In the case without the neo magnet being kicked away by the coil pulse, the voltage drop starts at 100% being used or "eaten" by the inductor and in the short term from the start of the pulse it is mostly being "eaten" by the inductor.  Therefore in the beginning of the pulse the vast majority of the (voltage x current x time) energy is going into the inductor and being used to build up the magnetic field around the inductor.

Towards the end of the pulse where there is higher current flow, most of the voltage is being "eaten" by the resistance of the coil and the (voltage x current x time) energy is turning into waste heat.

In the case with the neo magnet being kicked away by the coil pulse, then instead of a two-way voltage divider inside the coil that changes with respect to time, you have a three-way voltage divider that changes with respect to time.

You can see how the moving neo magnet also "eats" it's share of the total available voltage drop.  This is identical to the EMF waveform that is induced in the coil by the north pole flux from the neo magnet that is decreasing with respect to time as the neo magnet is kicked away from the coil.  For the neo magnet the (voltage x current) represents the real time power that the coil is exporting to the outside world and the (voltage x current x time) represents the total amount of mechanical energy that is put into the kick of the neo magnet.

Perhaps most importantly, the voltage drop "eaten" by the neo magnet does not contribute to the process of building up current in the coil, rather, it "steals" that voltage drop for a different purpose.  And as a result, there is LESS current flowing through the coil when the neo magnet is kicked away by the pulsing of the coil.

Now this has come full circle.  Russ believed that the magnetic field in an LC resonator, let's say in the Newman motor, could make the rotor magnet move without affecting the amplitude of the LC resonance.

Well, this is dead wrong.  You now know that when the magnetic field subtended by the LC resonator makes the rotor magnet move, the very act of the movement of the rotor magnet induces a small EMF pulse inside the LC resonator and that EMF pulse inside the LC resonator "eats" some of the available voltage inside the LC resonator that drives the resonance.  With less voltage available to drive the resonance, the amplitude of the resultant current flow in the resonator decreases.

In simple terms, when the magnetic field of the LC resonator makes the rotor magnet move, then the total energy in the LC resonator decreases, no ifs, ands or buts.  Effectively, the LC resonator is transmitting power into the outside world when the rotor magnet moves, and over the total span of time that the rotor magnet moves, that represents a transmission of energy into the outside world and as a result the total energy in the LC resonator decreases.

SS

SS, 

Turn your magnet parall with the coil.  Repet the experment.

You  will see a totally diffrent result. 
This is key. 



Any hoo,  back to the coil. 

Me and Richard made some progross.  We want to be able to make fine changes to the firing of the coil.  So we started on the electronic controled mechanically switched version to fire the coil.  The real voltages are starting to show them. Shelfs too. 

https://youtu.be/jwHghf8kKeg

~Ruas

And some. Induction effects.  With the right timming you can do some verry Intresting stuff.

And again the reasion for the better timming device.  (Mechanical still though)

https://youtu.be/syKSzIkQWTE

~Russ

Some fun for you.  Ring test,  you can see the full potental of the voltage ring now due to the relay switcher. 

See input voltage at top. 

Pegging my. Meters and its flatlighning lol. 

Could not even get to the norm voltage of 550v
Would blow stuff up...

~Russ

Russ, 
Instead of using so many 9v in series, would it not be easier to use a chopper with
a 9v battery to convert the low voltage into a HV dc then feed your coil circuit with that?

Possible.  But the main reasion is to have a steddy state of voltage soruce that can act as a capacitor,  as well as be able to charge.  (Thses are carbon zink,  dry cells.  Non rechargeable,  but will except the small charge at the levels we are dealing with,  over time they will short out.  This is ok for its a proof of consept. ) 

Think of the batterys as a catalyst. 

~Russ

I wonder if you could run it with a modified fluorescent ballast? 

Later,
Brad

It can be ran with Manny power sources. 

However 100% isolation from ground and other veribals are nessecary to make proper mesuremnts and confirm other phenomenon that this device works as stated. 

~Russ

Thinking again....

After re reading the first 5 chapters of the book.  I see where he gets his "extra" energy.  If there is no losses in the system and your doing it right.  Then the power going in is used in 100% efficiency.  And this is the conversion process.  The production efficiency  is = basicaly to the amount of matter in motion one can make for the given small input.  The feild its self is the "extra" energy. Its basicaly there even if you don't want it to be. 

So the idea is that the current going in is = to the current going out. When meaured by the ends of the coils. 

 Then if you short the coil.  Where  dose that " extra" current come from?  From the feild its self. 
We already saw that in the right process we can get a longer decay from the feild than we put in.  This is true for all coils but these big ones are verry keen on this.  Eazy to see this and mesure it. 

So.  its all about using this " extra" energy from the feild.  (Yes I know it seems obvious)

Take a wire 800 feet long and mesure the current going in and going out.  Its the same.  Now do the same test and short the wire.  You can see that there is no "extra current" flowing after the short.
Repeat the test but this time with a coil using the same 800 feet of wire...  Now there is extra current flowing when shorted...

Those 2 are the same experment one in a coil forum and one not.  One has "extra" current and one dose not. 

Do not blindly say this is false. 

I think extracting it as i spoke about in my last posts with the high voltage (Shorting in to a cap at the peak of the wave)  makes sence. 

We can then mesure the power stored in the cap and see if its more or less then the applyed.

Becuse its the way we can get this extra energy out fast with out the matic feild at all.  Becuse its collapsed.  And there is no induction effect to slow how much out we can get.  Its allrealy "pushed " upagenst one side via the slamming stop of the current.  Just as I discussed in the pipe made of a rubber hose. 

All the pressure all ready to burst out of one side and a void in the other.  Huge potental difference. 


Current in = current out when both ends of the coil are conected to the battery.  There for the magnetic feild is "extra" matter in motion waiting to be extracted.  Or let it go to waist via  a spark or other...

Again induction plays a vital roll here.  As stated Manny times. 

For those not playing the newman view and haven't read the book and clearly seen what newman did...  I would not respond to this post.  As I'll have a hard time responding as I know those responces arnt in light of what Newman teaches.  Sorry,  just the way it is right now.  Don't be blinded by the teachings you  think you already know... And I wont be blinded by the standard view of what's conventialy thought. 

God bless

~Russ

Yeppers.

Every conventional motor is also a generator--problem is the generator's polarity is backwards and fights (tries to kill the dipole) of the source power we send to the motor.  What you are getting real close to is reversing this problem by using the proper amount of delay; that's delay in the form of coil shorting.  Yes it can be done and the term used is augmentation.  Erfinder knows this concept well and he has burned up several of his motors learning how to do it properly.

For those that understand this concept, it should be quite reasonable to convert a motor into a transforming generator (i.e. Jim Murray) and from there to a pure transformer, fully solid state, no moving parts.  But as Russ says, "One day at a time."

Russ,

Quote

Turn your magnet parall with the coil.  Repet the experment.

You  will see a totally diffrent result.
This is key.

There are no exceptions or work-arounds for Faraday's law and Lenz's law.  Making the magnet parallel with the coil will not change anything.  The magnet will still subtend flux through the coil and the coil will react based on the rate of change of flux through the coil with respect to time.  This is the deck of cards that Nature has given us to play with.  What can happen however is that changing the orientation of the magnet with respect to the coil can minimize the flux changes greatly reducing the effects and that can lead someone into doing bench experiments and deluding themselves into thinking that they are seeing something that is not there.

The real take-away here is that when you are powering a motor of some kind the voltage associated with the current draw of the motor has to be accounted for.  Typically there are resistive losses that consume some of the voltage, there is magnetic energy that consumes some of the voltage, and there is voltage that is consumed that is associated with the mechanical work output of the motor.  If the accumulated magnetic energy has nowhere to go then it becomes a plasma discharge and/or it becomes a low or high-voltage ring-down with some capacitive elements in the motor.  And all of these parameters can change with respect to time, and that's why timing diagrams are so critical to understanding how any motor works.

SS

I have the advantage of not being smart enough.  I would like to start experimenting here with what I have on hand.  I have been trying to think up a timing circuit to make with my Raspberry pi or aurdino to start testing out pinging coils.  I was looking at some oscopes and found a 200 mhz 2 channel scope for around 380.  Worst case scenario is I learn a little bit about electronics and physics and spend money on a hobby...no different than someone dropping money on some other hobby they may have...

Quote from SqueezingSparks on February 18th, 2018, 06:43 AM

There are no exceptions or work-arounds for Faraday's law and Lenz's law.  Making the magnet parallel with the coil will not change anything.  The magnet will still subtend flux through the coil and the coil will react based on the rate of change of flux through the coil with respect to time.  This is the deck of cards that Nature has given us to play with.

So all this work Russ has been doing is a dead end then?  "It can't be done."  Should he just give up?  Is that what you are trying to say in a round-about way?  Guess I'm confused about your motivation.  Newman clearly states the way conventional motors are built is wrong.  You seem to be discounting that Russ isn't trying to build a conventional motor.  I mean seriously, Russ is the only person I know to build a pulse motor that spun in excess of 100,000 RPM, he does know a thing or two about going off the beaten path.

Squeeze, I just like to see a little more encouragement and desire to see Russ assemble a properly working Newman device.  Please try to stay on-track here.  If anyone can do this, Russ can, I have no doubt.  He's all-in for the long haul.  Let's do what we can to assist.  If you see something obvious, by all means, jump-in and describe the situation that has to be overcome and some methods to do it.  You got to want this thing man, as much as the rest of us do.  We all have to stay positive and stay focused.  It's the only way.

Quote from Brad on February 18th, 2018, 06:48 AM

I have the advantage of not being smart enough.  I would like to start experimenting here with what I have on hand.  I have been trying to think up a timing circuit to make with my Raspberry pi or aurdino to start testing out pinging coils.  I was looking at some oscopes and found a 200 mhz 2 channel scope for around 380.  Worst case scenario is I learn a little bit about electronics and physics and spend money on a hobby...no different than someone dropping money on some other hobby they may have...

I think its a fantastic idea! 

Sounds like that scope. Will work just fine! 

Be careful  of ground loops with scopes.  Most all scopes have grounds tied togther. 

A cheep signal generater will go a long way as well! 

~Russ