Hi

Kevin West send me this a while back though you should think about this alittle in this thread.

Kevin is a dedicated guy , and like all of us abit crazy too, but he may have something

as follows , wer to you kevin and others

 Right now I'm trying to tune the primary and secondary to resonate at the same freq. I hope to post a video of it later this week. Here is the video I'm currently trying to reproduce. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY

dan
www.securesupplies.biz

Quote from Kevin West on August 11th, 2013, 09:16 AM

Right now I'm trying to tune the primary and secondary to resonate at the same freq. I hope to post a video of it later this week. Here is the video I'm currently trying to reproduce. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY

Seems pretty simple huh.  Current from nowhere lit the bulb connected to the secondary side of the take-apart transformer.  And I do mean nowhere since the bulb on the primary side did not light.  Neat parlor trick.  Let me explain how that is done.  The filaments in the two bulbs are not matched.  The bulb on the primary side requires more current to illuminate it, so "when in resonance", the same current that is lighting the bulb on the secondary side is also passing through the bulb on the primary side, only it doesn't light it.  Only when "out of resonance" does the bulb on the primary side get hit with enough current to illuminate it.

Sorry guys, you do not get something for nothing.

Thanks for playing.

I found this thread by accident I would like to hear comments on the theory could the vic operate in that way

========================
 Sum of 3 phase current is ZERO « on: May 27, 2013, 06:34:12 am » the other day i was doing amp readings on a 3 phase motor at work. I noticed that each leg had 20.9 amps more or less, but when i clamped the probe around all 3 conductors at the same time, i noticed the amperage was zero. maybe this was the secret to high voltage and very low amps ! NOTICE that in steve meyers canadian patent for a three phase circuit for 9 cells, there are three sections to the circuit, in his hydroxy generating station circuit. is the end result the cancellation of one phase by the other two? when stan meyer said to look at the snowflakes , was he referring to the pattern? is there three phase symmetry there? and does thos correspond to the phase angle of the hydrogen bond? wondering if that square circuit board on the end of all those VIC cards, that nobody seems to know about, is the key to a three phase sequencing of the signals, to cancel out the currents in the combined water bath cell array? Logged Online Hidden Administrator Hero member **** Posts: 2918 water structure and science Re: Sum of 3 phase current is ZERO « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 12:15:55 pm » interesting question... Logged Online Hidden Global Moderator Hero member **** Posts: 1682 Re: Sum of 3 phase current is ZERO « Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 16:40:12 pm » well If you turn on a lamp and clamp the probe on the two wires feeding it, of course its going to read zero too. The clamp meter measures the magnetic field related to the current flowing on the wire... if you get current in one direction its able to measure it... but its not able to do it if you get one current canceling the other... Logged Offline Hidden Member ** Posts: 246 Re: Sum of 3 phase current is ZERO « Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 04:07:09 am » Hey Ali, do you have a link to Steve Myeres Canadian patent? Logged Offline Hidden Member ** Posts: 246 Re: Sum of 3 phase current is ZERO « Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 03:39:48 am » Quote from: Hidden on May 27, 2013, 06:34:12 am the other day i was doing amp readings on a 3 phase motor at work. I noticed that each leg had 20.9 amps more or less, but when i clamped the probe around all 3 conductors at the same time, i noticed the amperage was zero. maybe this was the secret to high voltage and very low amps ! NOTICE that in steve meyers canadian patent for a three phase circuit for 9 cells, there are three sections to the circuit, in his hydroxy generating station circuit. is the end result the cancellation of one phase by the other two? when stan meyer said to look at the snowflakes , was he referring to the pattern? is there three phase symmetry there? and does thos correspond to the phase angle of the hydrogen bond? wondering if that square circuit board on the end of all those VIC cards, that nobody seems to know about, is the key to a three phase sequencing of the signals, to cancel out the currents in the combined water bath cell array? Give us those referance's will ya? to Steve's Canadian patent and that square circuit nobody knows about. The snowflake question " why is snow white" I sent James this: "Snow is a whole bunch of individual ice crystals arranged together. When a light photon enters a layer of snow, it goes through an ice crystal on the top, which changes its direction slightly and sends it on to a new ice crystal, which does the same thing. Basically, all the crystals bounce the light all around so that it comes right back out of the snow pile. It does the same thing to all the different light frequencies, so all colors of light are bounced back out. The "color" of all the frequencies in the visible spectrum combined in equal measure is white, so this is the color we see in snow, while it's not the color we see in the individual ice crystals that form snow." From this link: http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/atmospheric/question524.htm James tried to describe the paragraph and Steve eventually said ... that was a frequency and not the answer he was looking for so I searched more and found this... well something similar to this but its the same answer: http://harijan.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/why-is-snow-white/ Once I seen the answer also was because air I ended my search on that quest. I would bet if there is a circuit on the VIC card nobody knows what it is .. I bet its an impedance circuit as in Steve's patent.

The only thing I'd like to add is that when you clamp all 3 wires at the same time on a healthy 3-phase motor, where the currents are symmetric and equal in size, then you will always end up getting 0 amp as a result of that.
There's no secret involved in that, OTOH it tells you that the motor is indeed healthy and performing just as it shold.

Quote from Lynx on September 24th, 2013, 11:56 AM

The only thing I'd like to add is that when you clamp all 3 wires at the same time on a healthy 3-phase motor, where the currents are symmetric and equal in size, then you will always end up getting 0 amp as a result of that.
There's no secret involved in that, OTOH it tells you that the motor is indeed healthy and performing just as it shold.

BUt does this cancel amps and let voltage go to infinity?


Tht is the vital knowledge is that the key and how to we fine tune what we all have done with that goal in mind

daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

Quote from securesupplies on September 25th, 2013, 10:03 PM

Quote from Lynx on September 24th, 2013, 11:56 AM

The only thing I'd like to add is that when you clamp all 3 wires at the same time on a healthy 3-phase motor, where the currents are symmetric and equal in size, then you will always end up getting 0 amp as a result of that.
There's no secret involved in that, OTOH it tells you that the motor is indeed healthy and performing just as it shold.

BUt does this cancel amps and let voltage go to infinity?


Tht is the vital knowledge is that the key and how to we fine tune what we all have done with that goal in mind

daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

No no, if you measure the individual phase currents to the motor one by one you will get the motor's apparent current for the load at hand.
If the motor is indeed healthy the currents will also be equal in both size and direction.
This in turn means that the sum of all the currents is zero, which is just as it should on any healthy symmetric 3-phase load.

A tiny tutorial:



In this example the apparent (or active or reactive, same principle) current is 30 amps.
Measuring the individual phase currents will give you 30 amps for each of the phases but if you clamp them all together and measure you will end up with zero amps as the currents sort of "cancels eachother out" if you get what I mean.
This because the currents are symmetrical (they are all 120 degrees phase shifted in relation to eachother) and equal in size (30 amps).
Any other scenario, where either the currents aren't equal in size or they aren't 120 degrees phase shifted from eachother then you would start to see some amps on the clamp meter, which of course would tell you that the motor is not as healthy as it should be.

HTH

Quote from Lynx on September 25th, 2013, 11:36 PM

Quote from securesupplies on September 25th, 2013, 10:03 PM

Quote from Lynx on September 24th, 2013, 11:56 AM

The only thing I'd like to add is that when you clamp all 3 wires at the same time on a healthy 3-phase motor, where the currents are symmetric and equal in size, then you will always end up getting 0 amp as a result of that.
There's no secret involved in that, OTOH it tells you that the motor is indeed healthy and performing just as it shold.

BUt does this cancel amps and let voltage go to infinity?


Tht is the vital knowledge is that the key and how to we fine tune what we all have done with that goal in mind

daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

No no, if you measure the individual phase currents to the motor one by one you will get the motor's apparent current for the load at hand.
If the motor is indeed healthy the currents will also be equal in both size and direction.
This in turn means that the sum of all the currents is zero, which is just as it should on any healthy symmetric 3-phase load.

A tiny tutorial:



In this example the apparent (or active or reactive, same principle) current is 30 amps.
Measuring the individual phase currents will give you 30 amps for each of the phases but if you clamp them all together and measure you will end up with zero amps as the currents sort of "cancels eachother out" if you get what I mean.
This because the currents are symmetrical (they are all 120 degrees phase shifted in relation to eachother) and equal in size (30 amps).
Any other scenario, where either the currents aren't equal in size or they aren't 120 degrees phase shifted from eachother then you would start to see some amps on the clamp meter, which of course would tell you that the motor is not as healthy as it should be.

HTH

so when it is a alternator supplying stephens circuit what does it do?

Quote from securesupplies on September 26th, 2013, 06:29 AM

so when it is a alternator supplying stephens circuit what does it do?

Pretty much what the VIC does, only on a larger scale which includes moving parts etc.
The 3-phase voltage is rectified so all phases contributes to driving the cell.
By changing the rotational speed of the alternator the output frequency also changes, which makes it a fairly crude way of changing the frequency IMO.
But hey, if it works it works.
If it ain't broke don't try to fix it
Btw, this is also the way Stan used to run his first (?) WFC before developing the VIC so I guess Steve indeed knows his way around this >less advanced< version of it.

http://www.powerstream.com/inv.htm#3-phase

can we use any of these to create the right environment

Quote from securesupplies on September 27th, 2013, 02:38 AM

http://www.powerstream.com/inv.htm#3-phase

can we use any of these to create the right environment

Who knows?
To me it's just way too much money involved just for the sake of experimenting, I'll take the more low budget route here, scavenging old TV sets for inductors, wires, cores etc.
'Tis the tinkerers way

Quote from securesupplies on September 27th, 2013, 02:38 AM

http://www.powerstream.com/inv.htm#3-phase

can we use any of these to create the right environment

No, of course the frequency must be variable.

you need to use 3 of those (I used one DCP 390/60), but they are > 1000 € each.

http://www.servowatt.de/en/produkte11.php

then you drive those three power amplifiers with a 3 phase sine generator from the shelf and there you go ...

of course a bit costy ... THAT kind of equipment is used in scientific laboratories.

not cheap, but exact and fully functional for that purpose ...

who told that prototyping´s cheap???

please donate now :-)

Quote from bussi04 on September 27th, 2013, 03:26 AM

Quote from securesupplies on September 27th, 2013, 02:38 AM

http://www.powerstream.com/inv.htm#3-phase

can we use any of these to create the right environment

No, of course the frequency must be variable.

you need to use 3 of those (I used one DCP 390/60), but they are > 1000 € each.

http://www.servowatt.de/en/produkte11.php

then you drive those three power amplifiers with a 3 phase sine generator from the shelf and there you go ...

of course a bit costy ... THAT kind of equipment is used in scientific laboratories.

not cheap, but exact and fully functional for that purpose ...

who told that prototyping´s cheap???

please donate now :-)

so using this equipment de what is the most ideal config

if you mentioned it you should map it out and post it some one might actually do it
so share the idea for diagram for 3 of those units

Dan

I wanted to remind  and encourage

senior member of forum to

carefully add key knowledge to these guides they are

open source and meant to be a cheat sheet fast reference not a BOOK.

These are designed to give new people and rebuilder a fast uptake
and start at a higher level more readily


http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=394&highlight=guides


Daniel
www.securesupplies.biz    hydrogen pages

Quote from securesupplies on September 25th, 2013, 10:03 PM

BUt does this cancel amps and let voltage go to infinity?

Maybe understanding how a neutral wire condition occurs may help you understand the phase cancelation of more complex  polyphase sytem....

In the image bellow you will see two separate line voltages supplying two different motors.

In the top image the common wire will have full line voltage potential if measured with volt meter.

In the bottom image we see that it’s not necessary to carry two different common lines to carry  the current back to its source so we combine them into one line.

because there are two different line potentials at different phase angles that are sharing the same  path home. in the area where they share this path["common wire"] they intersect each other relative to its angle and this causes a net cancelation at that point and registers as zero. that why its called a neutral wire. [technicaly speaking its never realy neutral there is always variations.]

They are 180 degrees out of phase. When one is cycling in the positive direction the other is cycling in the negative direction this is why they cancel.

so in the "common" wire we cause them to meet each other.

because of this phenomenon the local codes allow the neutral wire in a house to be smaller guage than the line wire because it heat loss is insignificant compared to line voltage.

Think of it  as a see saw where you have two forces one pushing and one pulling. if you were to sit in the middle of that see saw then your movement would be minimal compared to the opposite extreme.

I believe this also help to see
so I am posting here for sharing and replicating

Daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

The only way economic way to build a Vic and have it work is through resonant frequencies. Each cell will have a different resonant frequency since each cell has been built different by a lot of different people. The condition that determines the resonant condition of a Vic is the two inductors and the water gap. The inductive reactance and capacitive reactance must be equal to achieve resonant condition. That condition matches impedance perfectly to so the capacitive reactance impedance equally opposes the impedance of the inductive reactance. Once this resonant condition is obtained it must be locked on to and tracked by a PLL.

Quote from Sirgoose on November 18th, 2013, 05:38 AM

The only way economic way to build a Vic and have it work is through resonant frequencies. Each cell will have a different resonant frequency since each cell has been built different by a lot of different people. The condition that determines the resonant condition of a Vic is the two inductors and the water gap. The inductive reactance and capacitive reactance must be equal to achieve resonant condition. That condition matches impedance perfectly to so the capacitive reactance impedance equally opposes the impedance of the inductive reactance. Once this resonant condition is obtained it must be locked on to and tracked by a PLL.

So what it comes down to is finding the correct frequency for the setup at hand, which already has it's intrinsic inductances and capacitances which the circuit is put together with.
One way to find this frequency would be to feed the circuit with a signal generator and then compare the cell voltage with the total inductance voltage using an oscilloscope for example and when you get the voltage on the cell to be equal in amplitude with the voltage of the inductances then you know what frequency to lock on to.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_reactance for further references.

Quote from Lynx on November 18th, 2013, 06:42 AM

Quote from Sirgoose on November 18th, 2013, 05:38 AM

So what it comes down to is finding the correct frequency for the setup at hand, which already has it's intrinsic inductances and capacitances which the circuit is put together with.
One way to find this frequency would be to feed the circuit with a signal generator and then compare the cell voltage with the total inductance voltage using an oscilloscope for example and when you get the voltage on the cell to be equal in amplitude with the voltage of the inductances then you know what frequency to lock on to.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_reactance for further references.

Resonant frequency calculator website
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm

The smaller the water gap; the closer the plates of the water capacitor is the higher the capacitance will be. If you want a particular frequency you must engineer your inductance and capacitance around it.

Quote from Sirgoose on November 18th, 2013, 11:21 AM

The smaller the water gap; the closer the plates of the water capacitor is the higher the capacitance will be. If you want a particular frequency you must engineer your inductance and capacitance around it.

The inductances can be measured and/or calculated fairly easily but the cell capacitance is quite complicated to measure or calculate.
The most easy way would be to actually feed the circuit with a variable frequency and as I stated earlier check for equal voltages of the cell and all the combined inductances, that's when you know that you have the correct frequency.
Once you know the frequency (and the total inductance) you can use the general LC frequency formula in reverse in order to calculate the cell capacitance, which of course would reflect the current cell properties at hand, be it what kind of water you use, temperature, the water conductance, cell dimensions, etc etc.

Yeah I see your point. The injector will act as the water capacitor and depending on how you make it will determine that part of the equation. So once injector is made if you want a particular frequency you would be required to change the induction to find the resonant frequency that way. Same principle, just in a different way. For example Stan often said he set the resonant frequency of his VIC to 5Khz. So with the injector, 5khz frequency, and one resonant choke being the constant. We would then adjust the second resonant choke to adjust the Vic so it becomes resonant at 5khz.
This is some good stuff. I appreciate your hard work and insights to bring this technology out for the people.  

Quote from Sirgoose on November 18th, 2013, 02:56 PM

Stan often said he set the resonant frequency of his VIC to 5Khz

Do you have a document or a link to where Stan said that he used 5 KHz?
Thanks.

Lynx, This patent has the 5khz in it. He pulses it at 5khz because of the frequency doubling effect you get 10khz. He also gives an example of the gating frequency. He also states if you use larger capacitors than a 3 inch the frequency can be up to and above 50khz.

Thanks GPS, appreciate it

Quote from gpssonar on November 19th, 2013, 02:52 AM

Lynx, This patent has the 5khz in it. He pulses it at 5khz because of the frequency doubling effect you get 10khz. He also gives an example of the gating frequency. He also states if you use larger capacitors than a 3 inch the frequency can be up to and above 50khz.

that´s interesting. if it were a bare resonant effect I would expect frequency to be lower for higher capacitance of cells ...

Quote from bussi04 on November 19th, 2013, 12:08 PM

Quote from gpssonar on November 19th, 2013, 02:52 AM

Lynx, This patent has the 5khz in it. He pulses it at 5khz because of the frequency doubling effect you get 10khz. He also gives an example of the gating frequency. He also states if you use larger capacitors than a 3 inch the frequency can be up to and above 50khz.

that´s interesting. if it were a bare resonant effect I would expect frequency to be lower for higher capacitance of cells ...

From page 14:

Quote

Larger resonant cavities and higher rates of consumption of water in the conversion process require higher frequencies such as up to 50 KHz and above.

This could mean if you were to use larger cells and consume more water in the process, I.E produce a higher flow of HHO, then perhaps the frequency must be anything up to 50 KHz, which in turn means that you must adjust the inductances to meet the resonant action of the tuned LC circuit at these higher frequencies.
That also suggests that you could set a frequency, let's say 40 KHz then for arguments sake and instead of adjusting the frequency you adjust the inductances until the voltage starts increasing (step charging) over the cell.
I agree though with what you say that if you were to switch to use larger cells in your current setup, without changing the inductances, you would most probably likely have to decrease the switching frequency for the VIC in order to find resonant action again.