"Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"

mercury101

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #75, on October 24th, 2016, 03:45 PM »
No worries. Take your time. If someone is going to have a hissy fit and be cranky about a late reply then they need to have a beer have a smoke have a tea or a coffee and remember they are not paying you for your help or your time. Patients is a virtue and if someone wants road rage because they are impatient well thats their problem.
Do what you can Mr. Ronnie. And if you feel fustrated take a break. As for others here if you are impatient then you know what else you have to work on besides a vic! Can anyone else here help Mr. Ronnie with the questions? If so can you step in? I would if i could but i am not there yet.

Merc
Quote from gpssonar on October 24th, 2016, 03:20 PM
I working on it Nav, I can only answer one question at a time, It's only me trying to do this. I am asking for help form anyone that knows anything about all this to help me out and take some of the questions off me. I'm doing the best i can if I'm not getting to everything at once fast enough please help. There is only one me! I gave Matt a copy of how Stan's coils are arranged a while back. I don't have that information with me where I'm at now due to personal reasons. If he can put it up for everyone that would be great. If not I will have to do it again a post it.
I know they are people that is way ahead of everyone else, but you have to keep in mind I'm trying to lay this out for people that is just starting also.

I started this thread posting what is needed to get a cell working in my first post for those that are way ahead of everyone else.
That should have been the key everyone was and has been looking for. From what I've seen that's where everyone got stuck at.

HHO-Dan

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #76, on October 25th, 2016, 04:00 AM »
I have a question about the coils....
I have wound about 15 coils and found out that you can wind them fast and end up with lots of space between the wraps and higher MFD's and OHMS or you can go slow and try to wind a perfect coil.
So my question is..
Do we need to wind perfect coils?

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #77, on October 25th, 2016, 09:07 AM »Last edited on October 25th, 2016, 09:13 AM
Quote from HHO-Dan on October 25th, 2016, 04:00 AM
I have a question about the coils....
I have wound about 15 coils and found out that you can wind them fast and end up with lots of space between the wraps and higher MFD's and OHMS or you can go slow and try to wind a perfect coil.
So my question is..
Do we need to wind perfect coils?
im going to try to answer this, Ronnie fix me if i'm wrong.

Dan. its always best to have the best wound coil you can. this make everything eazer for tuning, however i think if each coil is a mess... it will still work, you just need to know the math...  so you can get the parameters right. there will be math needed to get this working from my experience. you cant just hope to through wire on the bobbins and make some cells.

however i'm not currently qualified to give you the math. at least not in the detail needed, but i have in the past worked with Ronnie and my a lot of coil winding / testing coils with meters to know this is true.

~Russ

X-Blade

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #78, on October 25th, 2016, 12:43 PM »
Ronnie, now Im getting this signal across the cell:



Did I made any mistake?
I checked the wires and thats all OK.


Im using 2 core Setup (1 transformer and 1 bifilar coil).

Thank you.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #79, on October 25th, 2016, 12:44 PM »
P.S. the interval between the two waveforms is the gating

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #80, on October 25th, 2016, 01:14 PM »Last edited on October 26th, 2016, 11:30 PM
Quote from X-Blade on October 25th, 2016, 12:44 PM
P.S. the interval between the two waveforms is the gating
Run it without gating--just a nice 50% duty cycle square wave.  Also, provide the signal with a bipolar transistor (i.e. TIP122) and not a MOSFET for the time being.  The less variables outside the actual VIC the better--KISS.

X-Blade

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #81, on October 25th, 2016, 01:18 PM »
Thank you Matt Watts.

I just cant understand why it is looking like na AC wave, swinging above and beyond the 0V, if I remove the gating I cannot see the step charge rising

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #82, on October 25th, 2016, 02:44 PM »Last edited on October 25th, 2016, 03:04 PM
Quote from nav on October 24th, 2016, 04:09 PM
Stan used the wiper arm on L2 to regulate the voltage on one set up but on the bifilar set up there is no regulator apart from the plates. That would mean the plates would need to form a plasma ark to create a voltage dump so that the reactance of the cell could be matched. Here is how I think Tesla did it:
Anyway i'm hogging your thread, sorry i'll just be on the sidelines from now on.
I want to put to rest what the L2 choke is:
I haven't told this to anyone so your going to see it here for the first time.
It is a built in Phase-Shifter Circuit in the VIC, It is for the purpose of providing a desired phase shift in the output voltage compared with the input voltage.
Depending on the value of the capacitor and the value of the variable resistor or (inductor) you can determine the phase shift you want.
Kinda looks like the Frequency doubling Stan talks about, don't it?

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #83, on October 25th, 2016, 02:58 PM »
Quote from X-Blade on October 25th, 2016, 01:18 PM
I just cant understand why it is looking like na AC wave, swinging above and beyond the 0V, if I remove the gating I cannot see the step charge rising
Remember that Ronnie said you'll only see the step charging as the water is being displaced.  Depending upon the parameters you have, this may happen so fast you may never see it unless you have a nice DSO with a lot of memory.

The idea of keeping it simple means essentially to just run the cell full throttle--let it produce all it can.  Gating is not required for this.  With gating, you are actually creating a condition of start/stop on the cell continuously, instead of just letting the voltage rise on its own.  Gating is pretty important when you are trying to maneuver your buggy into a garage packed with equipment; so is voltage control on the primary.  If you're hammer down on the open road, the input voltage will be max at 12 volts and gating shut off.

Gating manipulates the production rate; voltage control sets the energetic value of the gas.  Both together allows you to control an engine perfectly for the conditions.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #84, on October 25th, 2016, 03:05 PM »Last edited on October 25th, 2016, 03:09 PM
Quote from gpssonar on October 25th, 2016, 02:44 PM
I want to put to rest what the L2 choke is:
It is a built in Phase-Shifter Circuit in the VIC, It is for the purpose of providing a desired phase shift in the output voltage compared with the input voltage.
Ah Hah!

That's what I suspected.  Like I've said before, timing is everything.  Look at where that red line is.  Do you see your voltage required to get electrolysis started?   I do.

And since it's timing related, you know what that means--changing the running frequency will raise heck with your desired phase shift.  So you have to get the running frequency nailed down before you attempt to adjust the negative choke or all bets are off.

X-Blade

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #85, on October 25th, 2016, 03:08 PM »
Ronnie, do you have any scope  shot across the cell showing the step-charge that  you can share, please?
Thank you.

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #86, on October 25th, 2016, 03:13 PM »Last edited on October 25th, 2016, 03:25 PM
You are exactly right about that Matt!!!!! and at hammer down and if the gas pressure gets to high in the cell the gas management card shut the cell down to a preset voltage but never turning it completely off and once the cell drops to a low pressure per-set value it turns the cell back on again.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #87, on October 25th, 2016, 03:24 PM »
Quote from X-Blade on October 25th, 2016, 03:08 PM
Ronnie, do you have any scope  shot across the cell showing the step-charge that  you can share, please?
Thank you.
Not on the computer I'm using, I will send you a PM telling you why I don't have things here with me. If you think your going to see step charging after it goes into resonance. You want!

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #88, on October 25th, 2016, 03:33 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on October 25th, 2016, 03:05 PM
Ah Hah!

That's what I suspected.  Like I've said before, timing is everything.  Look at where that red line is.  Do you see your voltage required to get electrolysis started?   I do.

And since it's timing related, you know what that means--changing the running frequency will raise heck with your desired phase shift.  So you have to get the running frequency nailed down before you attempt to adjust the negative choke or all bets are off.
You got it Matt!
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #89, on October 25th, 2016, 03:47 PM »
@ Nav

This is a photo that I got from Adam that I gave him how the coils are arranged on Stan's Vic.

mercury101

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #90, on October 25th, 2016, 03:57 PM »
Hmm.  A phase shift.
I seem to remember a torid coil or transformer also provides phase shift but perhaps too much for the application ?

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #91, on October 25th, 2016, 04:07 PM »
Merc, you have to be able to control the phase shift it in Stan's system.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #92, on October 25th, 2016, 04:12 PM »
Quote from gpssonar on October 25th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Merc, you have to be able to control the phase shift it in Stan's system. Like Matt said timing is everything.

~Russ

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #93, on October 25th, 2016, 05:35 PM »Last edited on October 25th, 2016, 10:54 PM
Quote from mercury101 on October 25th, 2016, 03:57 PM
Hmm.  A phase shift.
I seem to remember a torid coil or transformer also provides phase shift but perhaps too much for the application ?
Merc, if you dont know much about the phases and what it dose with C and L do read up on it, you will need to know about it, google "Power Factor" and r3ead up on it,

also read up on it here find the sections related to L C and Resonance, and Power factor.
 http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/books/Hawkings%20Electrical%20Guide%20Full%20Set%20Vol%201-10.zip

if you under stand phase shift, sorry for extra information, for others who do not know the relationship between voltage and current, do read up on it.

Ronnie, i have a simple Question. explain how and why the diode is in there. we know we are trying to make DC not AC Correct?

for for me the diode dose may have more reason than meets the eye.

like here look at where the ground is, this is in only a few diagrams everything else the ground is left off. :

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #94, on October 25th, 2016, 05:35 PM »
Gnd
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #95, on October 25th, 2016, 05:40 PM »
another interesting note...  look at what that diagram states ... not just water but water and its gases. some food for thought.

~Russ

gpssonar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #96, on October 25th, 2016, 06:15 PM »
Russ, i haven't seen that drawing where did it come from?  It goes against everything he has said about an isolated ground. It has to be a mistake or something. I have looked at all his VIC's and none of them are grounded. So I can't comment on that one, other than he mislabeled it.

I would like to draw up something to explain the diode before I comment on it. So I can put some visual to it. I will work in it and post it.

Matt Watts

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #97, on October 25th, 2016, 07:29 PM »Last edited on October 25th, 2016, 07:40 PM
Quote from gpssonar on October 25th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Merc, you have to be able to control the phase shift it in Stan's system.
Like Matt said timing is everything.
And for this circuit, timing is handled by the length of wire.  You have an AC signal originating from the secondary, one side heads down the positive choke; the other down the negative choke.  Now one might think where these two signals meet at the WFC, you have maximum voltage separation and that's true, at resonance.  But you don't have resonance until the water is displaced.  What you have is a direct short through the water.  In essence the output of both chokes are shorted together at this stage in the operation.  That's a no-go all the way around.  But we still have this little trick we can play and that is shortening the length of wire on the negative choke.

Let's suppose we have a center-tapped secondary and at that center-tap we connect the ground of our two-channel scope as a reference point.  Now we connect probe-A to the output of the positive choke and probe-B to the output of the negative choke.  What should we see?  If the two chokes are equal length, we'll see two identical signals, perfectly in-phase.  Make sense?   The signal has to travel equal lengths of wire through each choke and therefore they will arrive at the same point at exactly the same time.

Now what happens if we shorten the negative choke (take off turns)?   You don't suppose we'll see a phase shift do you?  We should.  The signal from the negative side of the secondary should get to the output of the negative choke first.  So now run a differential between probe-A and probe-B.  You should see a voltage there.  If that voltage exceeds 2 volts per cell, bingo!  You have the start of electrolysis in your WFC.  Get to that point and you're off to the races.

So now do you see how to tune the negative choke with water in the WFC after you have already tuned for resonance with high voltage on an empty (dry) WFC?

The thing to keep in mind with Stan's technique, you are only creating just enough phase shift to squeak out a few volts to start electrolysis; once resonance takes over, these few volts are far overcome by the thousands of volts when the water is fully displaced in the WFC.  The little bit of voltage loss due to this phase-shift becomes negligible.

haxar

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #98, on October 25th, 2016, 09:00 PM »
Quote from gpssonar on October 25th, 2016, 03:47 PM
@ Nav

This is a photo that I got from Adam that I gave him how the coils are arranged on Stan's Vic.
Can you identify, which coil in red would be L1 and L2 in this orientation?

Yellow == Primary
Green == Feedback
Blue == Secondary
L1 == Top or Bottom of image?
L2 == Top or Bottom of image?

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #99, on October 25th, 2016, 09:15 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on October 25th, 2016, 05:35 PM
if you under stand phase shift, sorry for extra information, for others who do not know the relationship between voltage and current, do read up on it.
Also relevant is videos from Sparkfun regarding voltage, current, and ohm's law. It's helpful to understand what they are:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfhFXjsrw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYwNj9uauJ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jB6hDUqN0Y