Quote from Matt Watts on April 29th, 2017, 01:13 PM

:imsorry:

I'm a tad bit confused after this latest project, so I may not be much help until I get my head wrapped around this.   :thinking:  These are open ended coils yet they behave just as though they were normally terminated.  Somehow impedance at frequency completely overrides the infinite DC resistance.  Not just a little bit, completely.

And it's just like the problem we have with the WFC, I can't measure the capacitance at all--meter just says, "Open".

You won't and can't measure capacitance or high impedance across the cell without an analyser, it's impossible. You won't even get the correct impedance or capacitance across an open ended or closed loop series oscillator unless the system is at resonance. The only thing you can measure is dc ground state, impedance of the termination as dc resistance and the VSWR.
Series circuits are incredibly complex circuits when you talk about termination impedance at resonance.

Quote from Matt Watts on April 29th, 2017, 01:13 PM

:imsorry:

I'm a tad bit confused after this latest project, so I may not be much help until I get my head wrapped around this.   :thinking:  These are open ended coils yet they behave just as though they were normally terminated.  Somehow impedance at frequency completely overrides the infinite DC resistance.  Not just a little bit, completely.

And it's just like the problem we have with the WFC, I can't measure the capacitance at all--meter just says, "Open".

Of course they do. It behaves the same as a dipole which has 75 ohms impedance across the termination. Even at resonance when that circuit is closed loop, there will be a series high impedance node exactly half way round the system and the capacitance of the circuit controls that very impedance figure.

Well, I can take a 3000 volt 10pF capacitor and connect it to my meter, and the meter reads it just fine and pretty accurate too.

But when I take two long pieces of wire and wrap them bifilar around a 50mm tube, the meter reads zippo, yet when I calculate things out, the capacitance has to be in excess of 50-100pF.

So what gives?   Is this some different kind of capacitance?  Is that why my meter can't read it?  Does this capacitance not charge up the same way?  Do RC time constants only work in certain situations?

Honestly, I'm at a loss for the moment.

Here's what I think...

Capacitor is way too generic of a term.  A col/cap (or transmission line for that matter) doesn't "charge" at all until is reaches a certain voltage.  So no, all capacitors are not created equal.  And a WFC capacitor is the most difficult type of capacitor to charge up, with a spark gap capacitor being just as difficult.

It's all about "opposition to change".  First you have to identify the "change" you're interested in.  Then you have to place boundaries on the "amount of change" you are interested in.  And lastly, you have to subject the DUT to that "amount of change" and time how long it takes.  Once you do that and see that different devices are all over the map, you throw-out inductance and capacitance because they become meaningless terms.

Read Tesla's patent and papers on the pancake bifilar, there are some interesting anotations. They do not behave like single coils at all and the capacitance is emmense. He talks about the electrostatic properties taking over and also a good read is Tom Beardon about the same subject.

Erfinder posed this on the OU forum and to be honest, I'm not sure what two types of LC oscillators he is referring to.  Do you know Nav?  You've studied Tesla.

Quote from Erfinder

This is where things get complicated......we must allow ourselves to think outside of our comfort zones.  There are two fundamental types of LC oscillator, you know what they are, but do you know what they are?  What we want is immaterial!  How we interpret what the system demands is where we have stagnated.  We have a textbook definition of what an LC is, and as such, we have a text book approach in dealing with them.  It struck me as curious how Tesla related and operated the two LC types within the same system, doing so in such a way so as to send a message....  Read his words carefully, study the images he associated with those words....  Leave your brain at the door....comprehension must precede interpretation.

What you see is what you get, I am begging you all to see more...what's obvious when strolling the gold paved roads of oblivion.......

Quote from nav on April 28th, 2017, 02:54 PM

Stan says in the NZ video that the resonance changes as more bubbles in the cell effect the dielectric property but I don't think it will drop close to air because there is still a dielectric path around the bubbles, I would say it might drop to between 50 and 60 but not down to 2 or 3. If you use a capacitance calculator, a reactance calculator etc then the calculations come out at impossible ranges but I guess we are dealing with unknowns so anything can happen.
Nothing seems to fit on paper and most struggle getting voltage on the WFC at all. Was studying things this afternoon at work and it seems to me that the VIC acts in a very perculiar manner, it acts like the chokes are on another transformer core somehow compared to the primary and secondary, Stan definately says that the chokes are already primed with a magnetic field when the secondary collapses so they must have been initially primed by the core flux but then when the secondary begins to collapse they retain their magnetic field long enough during the secondary current phase to restrict such current. The only way you can think of is that the chokes are completely out of phase with the secondary somehow to cause a time delay. But in the NZ video Stan points to the negative choke and says there is a phase difference between it and the secondary. Been going through a view of Stan's papers and found several references to the negative choke marked as a current limiting inductor as well as another one that has a centre tap on the secondary which is connected to another variable inductor seperate from the two chokes. But the hardest part to understand is even though he current limits the secondary then how is he current limiting the chokes which are also by all intents and purposes also secondaries? The diode? But if he can current limit the chokes with a diode then he can also current limit the secondary with a diode so its kind of confusing. He seems to be current limiting the secondary as if the chokes are the load but the chokes have already been primed by the core flux so how can they be a load on the secondary unless they are completely decoupled from the core? Its as if it acts as one transformer during primary pulsing then turns into two transformers during pulse off time.
The chokes act like they place no load on the primary at all even though they were primed by the core flux to begin with. Perhaps its a seperate impedance that is caused by the gate where the primary initialises the core flux, primes the secondary and the chokes then the impedance caused by the gate frequency decouples the chokes from the core somehow, or perhaps the chokes were never coupled to the primary in the first place?
It seems to defy all transformer known logic and understanding.
There has got to be a definate solution somewhere along the line and if I had to make a bet it would have to relate to phase shift between the chokes and secondary that has been overlooked by mainstream science somehow. We know how to trap high impedance differential mode currents in electronics but its always on a seperate core with seperate chokes from the main transformer, there are no references anywhere to trapping high impedance, high frequency differential mode currents on the same core as the line input, it's just not written about or known about yet Stan has done it.

the diode is used as a switch but not as a rectifier. so it could be decoupling component.

Quote from Matt Watts on April 29th, 2017, 04:30 PM

Erfinder posed this on the OU forum and to be honest, I'm not sure what two types of LC oscillators he is referring to.  Do you know Nav?  You've studied Tesla.

If I were making an educated guess at what he's talking about and judging by what i've experienced myself lately i'd say we are talking about the different capacitances and inductances in normal RF oscillators and longtitudinal oscillators.
Normal unbalanced RF oscillators use both the ground wave and the air wave in some systems and are dc grounded but others are balanced such as dipoles and for them not to be effected by the ground they need to be placed a full incident wave above the ground.
Longtutudinal waves use the ground wave in a big way but don't rely on the air wave as much but it is still there and capacitance is king in this type of circuit because it massively compensates for this type of unbalanced system.
Matt, when the line termination behaves like it does on your bifilar it was doing the same as my bifilar the other week when I showed you the video, both respective systems were not resonant with the drive frequency and then we have both voltage and RF oscillations leaving an open ended termination at a certain impedance, the system will not be in tune until you terminate it with a resistor that matches the oscillator impedance just like you terminate an RF oscillator with an antenna that matches the oscillator impedance.
It matters not whether it be a hugely capacitive circuit or normal inductive/capacitive reactance circuit, you still have to terminate it with the correct impedance for resonance otherwise it will spew spurious emmissions from everywhere and reflect the signal back at the oscillator causing high VSWR and burn out the secondary in Stan's VIC.

The system i'm building Matt has an oscillator which is the audio transformer and i'm passing the signal through a stand alone choke. The choke is similar to an high pass filter and i'm asking the choke to cut off current that is of higher frequency/higher impedance than the oscillator, the diode half rectifies the signal from the transformer into an higher impedance, higher frequency signal which the choke absorbs as induction so it's perfectly understandable exactly what Stan was trying to do.
But here lies an important factor: The current in the audio transformer lags the voltage by 90 degrees and the voltage has already begun to influence the choke before the current magnetises the choke core which is what we want it to do. Then the signal is terminated by the audio transformer and therefore the choke is completely isolated from the input signal and decoupled from any primary. At this stage you've already won because you've only used primary current to magnetise two cores and nothing else, there is still no power factor involved but it doesn't finish there. The chokes magnetic field will still collapse in the opposing direction from which they were charged which is against the bias of the diode so current isn't a factor but we still need to get the voltage from the choke into the series circuit and the WFC. The only direction is in the bias of the diode back through the secondary of the audio transformer and to do that you'd need to match the impedance of the choke with the cell. But here lies a great observation by Tesla and others: Even though the bias diode blocked the current from the choke reaching any primaries and therefore we have absolute decoupling going on, the choke can be made to resonate in an LC circuit and offload its voltage but a totally new phenomenon appears, the bias diode doubles the LC resonance yet again.
Conclusions to this: If the audio transformer is running at 5khz then the high impedance, high frequency signal going into the choke is 10Khz because of the half rectification. Stan calls this a frequency doubler. The choke is inductive and supresses the 10khz current from the transformer then tries to collapse in the opposite direction from which it was charged but the bias diode stops this, but then the energised choke forms an LC circuit with the cell BUT the diode doubles this frequency and that is why no calculations ever work out. The LC circuit when it is built MUST be resonant at TWICE the self resonance of the choke not it's normal 10Khz self resonant frequency. The path through the secondary and the diode must be capable of resonating at 20Khz and this is why transformers cores are important, some people will have built the secondary core to take 10khz when in fact it needs to take 20khz.
Another piece of the jigsaw is now in place. Tesla was a genius.

Quote from Matt Watts on April 29th, 2017, 01:48 PM

Well, I can take a 3000 volt 10pF capacitor and connect it to my meter, and the meter reads it just fine and pretty accurate too.

But when I take two long pieces of wire and wrap them bifilar around a 50mm tube, the meter reads zippo, yet when I calculate things out, the capacitance has to be in excess of 50-100pF.

So what gives?   Is this some different kind of capacitance?  Is that why my meter can't read it?  Does this capacitance not charge up the same way?  Do RC time constants only work in certain situations?

Honestly, I'm at a loss for the moment.

the capacitance measurement works by dc pulsing the capacitor and measure charge/decharge time and calculate capacitance.
that works fine for caps without relevant inductance.
a bifilar coil has lots of inductance and so the cap measurement doesn´t work because capacitive and inductive effects are mixed.

so both parts capacitance and inductance have to be separated in the measurement procedure.

making a one-shot measurement might work because it´s low frequency.

5 years ago i built a wfc capacitance measurement tool that might also work for your coil.

due to the fact that ne555 has a voltage window between 1/3 Vdd and 2/3 Vdd you can build a one-shot scenario measuring charge/discharge time at know charging resistance and then calculate capacitance.

This is what occurs with an audio transformer and a stand alone choke, the resonant LC circuit has to be 4 times higher frequency than the main pulse and appears during pulse off time in the 180 degrees of pulse off. You can see how this would fit into the 5 coil VIC but what you can't understand is how the chokes are decoupled from the primary flux.
Unless in the 5 coil VIC the primary totally ignores the higher impedance in the core of course which means you would need a core that worked well at 5khz to energise it then performed badly at 20khz so that the primary became decoupled from the chokes/secondary at that frequency. Or you could have a VIC that didn't work at all at 5khz and you coupled the primary to the secondary with proximity, then the core becomes inductive at 10-20khz, do you see what i'm getting at guys?

I think were moving on rapidly.

Haven't posted in a while, I seen here where people are still struggling with the 78.54 ohms. The 78.54 ohms is the ohm value that is the Z Series resistance that is left over when you have a L value and and a C value in series at a resonate frequency.
Example: If we have an inductor value of 1262.7 mH and a Capacitance value of 489 pF the resonate Frequency will be 6.40 kHz with a Z series resistance of 78.54 ohms
Hope this helps with another piece of the puzzle to clear up the 78.54 ohms.

A working cell video will not help anyone. How many videos have you and everyone else watched of Stan's and still can't figure it out. The people that understands what I'm telling them will be able to figure it out. I just posted a key piece to the puzzle and it just went over your head like a jet. And by the way I had them remove your post on the other forum calling me a Liar.

Quote from gpssonar on October 11th, 2017, 03:31 AM

Haven't posted in a while, I seen here where people are still struggling with the 78.54 ohms. The 78.54 ohms is the ohm value that is the Z Series resistance that is left over when you have a L value and and a C value in series at a resonate frequency.

This 78.54 ohms is only true when C happens to be a water capacitor correct?

If C was say an air capacitor, then the left over value might be something like 300 ohms.  Not exactly sure of that number, but I do recall hearing a number in that range for the impedance of free space.

Matt it can hold true to any capacitor and the dielectric your trying to tune into. (Air for example). But as Stan stated you are tuning into the properties of water which he calls 78.54 ohms. I gave an example of a value of an inductor and capacitor in series that will give you the resistance of the properties of water. If you change any value of the inductor or capacitor you will see how hard it is to find that value. You will also see why people are chasing the frequency all over the place and accomplishing little to no results. Again it's all a tunned circuit of resonance.

I'm beginning to understand.  There seems to be a sweet spot with resonant circuits.  Still unable to put my finger on it exactly.  What I mean is:

You can take any capacitor and any inductor, build a tank circuit and make it resonate at some frequency, but there's more to the puzzle than that.  In reality there is a most perfect capacitor and most perfect inductor for doing this.  I started to discover this with Russ' cap-coil-cap transfer demonstration.  Not any parts will work.  You need a matched pair of caps and inductor.  So with Stan's system or any other resonant system for that matter, there should be two plots you can make--one for the inductor and another for the capacitor; where these two plots intersect should give you the exact components you need.  Once I get my head wrapped around how to generate these plots, life should become much easier.  My gut feeling is these plots are an overlay of the series and parallel resonance, since a tank circuit IS BOTH series and parallel simultaneously.

Let me play with those values:

Quote from gpssonar

inductor value of 1262.7 mH
Capacitance value of 489 pF
resonate Frequency will be 6.40 kHz
Z series resistance of 78.54 ohms

And see if I can work this out on paper the way I think things have to be.


And thank you Ronnie for sticking around.  A little push now and then really does help a lot.

Quote from gpssonar on October 11th, 2017, 06:18 AM

A working cell video will not help anyone. How many videos have you and everyone else watched of Stan's and still can't figure it out. The people that understands what I'm telling them will be able to figure it out. I just posted a key piece to the puzzle and it just went over your head like a jet. And by the way I had them remove your post on the other forum calling me a Liar.

Duly noted, many thanks Sir :thumbsup:

X-Blade I don't want the attention or the BS to go along with it. I've made less than 5 post in over a year now. But I still do a lot of reading and keep informed on what's being said here and else where. I make one post that goes over your head like a jet and were right back where we was over a year ago. All I can hope for is someone gets something from that post. To keep the drama down here on this forum, I'll just send Pm's out to those that want them.

I'm new in the forum,but i'm been investigating about wfc.Everyone knows about the circuit, the coils,the cells...but dont work. At this point, I think its more easy to know what is fail ,if we search what was hiding or eliminated the people who kill stanley meyer (like 918 op amp). I say this becouse this has been pased with other invertors and the people who killed him would ensure no one make it work.


Sorry for my english.

Thanks Ronnie.

X-Blade is now disqualified.

Ronnie
Is any person who , with your help got working cell and fracture water In Stan's way?

Quote from andy on October 14th, 2017, 08:42 AM

Ronnie
Is any person who , with your help got working cell and fracture water In Stan's way?

andy, The answer is no as far as i know. I haven't helped anyone in over a year now, been to busy taking care of my mom and other things. Neal and his wife came down from Canada a couple months ago for a week, They are coming back again in December to go on a Cruise to the Bahamas with me and my family. We are going to get back at it then, I had to rebuild some of the GMS cards due to a situation I had, That is all done now and it's back to working again. I have a new work shop set up now, with several new pieces of new equipment. But anyway hope to get back at things in full swing in December.

The show must go on