What i am saying is there is nothing about Stan's Vic or Cell that is fixed in value, it is all variable with the right knowledge. It all can be controlled, to output the most power to the cell and it's only limitations is that of the designed of it all. The more design flaws you have in it the less power you have to the cell, the less power you have the less gas you will be able to create (If any gas at all.) But with the right design it can be scaled up or down from Stan's Vic and number of cells. But you are correct in what your saying but when you have chokes involved on both sides of the secondary things start to get messy real quick as far as the cell goes. I'm not getting into the different frequency's of the coils and harmonics of them, Nav has done a wonderful job explaining all that in his post. All I am trying to say is you have to get rid of all coil resistance of the wire also in order to truly impedance match the secondary side to the cell, canceling out the inductors and capacitors at the right frequency want cut it. There is still resistance in the wire of the coils that has to be dealt with. In Stan's Vic you have 3 coils of wire that has 70 ohms or more in each one of them and also 1 that has 11 ohms all on the secondary side. Question is what are you going to do with all that resistance that is in the wire? Frequency and Duty cycle will never get rid of it. So what method are you going to use to deal with it to match it to the cells? The answer is hidden in the number (10).

Where magnetic vectors are cancelled, the voltage field is 90 degrees out of phase to the linear inductance.
So the resistance of the coil is no longer a linear value. You would need to measure the coil at very low voltage first and establish its electrostatic inductance as a resistance value then match the capacitive reactance in the tubing of the cell. As you go up in voltage steps keep matching the cell's reactance to the changing resistance value. When the coil goes up in distributed capacitance, the distributed inductance rises square to voltage and its resistance value changes. Therefore its PEAK resistance must be matched in the cell not its free space resistance.

Ronnie, are you saying that when you charge the secondary and the chokes, after the primary is shut off and resonance takes place when resonance has finished and the primary is switched back on, the primary will be confronted with the combined left over resistance from the static inductance field and you need to cancel that resistance with a primary match?

i removed the last 3 comments, Please keep to the topic.

Thank you.

~Russ

gpssonar,

The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is you could be matching the cells impedance at a given frequency to the series resistance of the 3 coils,
If that's not it i need to do some more reading,

Thanks for you response

Not a problem Russ.It was something that most people already knew anyway. But your right it didn't need to be repeated. But I will put back one part of my post that you erased, because it is important to the discussion here. (When you know who blew up his unit on purpose, at the you know who's show (it was due to the Amps)). He knew exactly the voltage level that it was going to blow. only way to know this is having it to blow at that level of voltage before. If everyone could have seen the amp meter right before it blew you would have seen the amp meter peg out. How do I know? Because over the years I've done it myself more times than i can count, and I have a bucket full of blown mosfets and burnt up magnet wire to prove it. But not on purpose though, it was because i had not yet figured out all i needed to know, but I made progress each time.

Nav, since we are talking about VIC's in this thread, let's compare VIC's of two different types Stan used.
Why not compare the copper VIC that is used for the 11 cavity cell to the Stainless steel wire VIC used for the water spark plug. It may lead you to some answers your looking for.
Question is, Why is there less resistance in the copper VIC for the 11 cavity cell? and more resistance in the stainless steel Vic for one spark plug cell? I would like to see what peoples opinion is on this. Should lead to a pretty good discussion.

Quote from gpssonar on December 3rd, 2015, 06:13 PM

Nav, since we are talking about VIC's in this thread, let's compare VIC's of two different types Stan used.
Why not compare the copper VIC that is used for the 11 cavity cell to the Stainless steel wire VIC used for the water spark plug. It may lead you to some answers your looking for.
Question is, Why is there less resistance in the copper VIC for the 11 cavity cell? and more resistance in the stainless steel Vic for one spark plug cell? I would like to see what peoples opinion is on this. Should lead to a pretty good discussion.

Copper is more conductive and less resistive than steel. So when building a small spark plug cell you need to match the resistance of the small stainless plug which means using less conductive more resistive stainless steel wire.
In the 11 cell array the total amount of stainless steel used and its resistance value would need to match the resistance of the copper cell.

Posted: December 4th, 2015, 04:09 AM

Therefore if you have 230 Ohms between the three coils on the VIC and your primary is 10 Ohms you would need a 220 Ohm resistor across the primary so when the primary is switched back on you balance that figure. When you are building your cell in series tubes, the total resistance of the cell would be 230 Ohms for a 10 cell array, thats 23 Ohms per tube set. However, when building in parallel its a different calculation and if you built a six tube array each tube pair would need to be 1400 Ohms in free space to match 230 Ohms.
Therefore it would be easier to work in sets of ten tube arrays because of the resistance difference between stainless steel and copper. Its easier to calculate and build.
So if you have a 238 Ohms across the three coils in the VIC, all you have to do is multiply it by 10 in each tube pair so each pair of tubes would be 2380 Ohms.
To scale it down you go in series instead of parallel and change the resistance of the coil wire.

Those reactive inductance values on a ferrite core that are missing for 10Khz are important because I can match the 1.2 million ohms of the free space model in my capacitive reactance with a 1000mm2 plates but to match my plates in a ferrite core I need the reactive inductance value in a ferrite core to set the plate size value.

Here is a question worth its weight in gold. The chart below shows the resistance of the secondary and the two chokes in free space on their own and they are all in the 70's of Ohms.
But when they are pulsed at 10Khz in the circuit the two chokes have a massive 1.2 million Ohms impedance each yet the secondary is 190,000 Ohms. Who is smart enough to know why? The answer reinforces something I said recently.

Quote from gpssonar on December 3rd, 2015, 03:13 PM

Not a problem Russ.It was something that most people already knew anyway. But your right it didn't need to be repeated. But I will put back one part of my post that you erased, because it is important to the discussion here. (When you know who blew up his unit on purpose, at the you know who's show (it was due to the Amps)). He knew exactly the voltage level that it was going to blow. only way to know this is having it to blow at that level of voltage before. If everyone could have seen the amp meter right before it blew you would have seen the amp meter peg out. How do I know? Because over the years I've done it myself more times than i can count, and I have a bucket full of blown mosfets and burnt up magnet wire to prove it. But not on purpose though, it was because i had not yet figured out all i needed to know, but I made progress each time.

hi Ronnie, i did not remove anything in your posts it was some one else's. no worries.  keep on keeping on!

~Russ

Ronnie, if I have a cell that is 1000mm2 with a certain gap and a certain dielectric constant, I have a capacitive reactance value that is great to work with at my desired frequency. It also matches the freespace model of 1.2 million Ohms. But in order to decide my plate size in a ferrite core I need those ferrite core reactive inductance figures.

Well, normally I wouldn't get into details in such a thread like this, but since you're asking I couldn't help but noticing that by using the given numbers in the chart I can't really understand the given results in the chart for the individual coils at hand and by that I mean by using the school book formula for calculating inductive reactance, XL = 2 * PI * F * L, the numbers don't add up to match those found in the chart for the given frequencies at hand.

On the other hand it does say R @ [frequency], not XL @ [frequency] , so maybe I just don't get it, I'll buy that.

Also, if I understand it correctly each coil were separately pulsed, I.E they were not connected to any other coil as they were pulsed, while also not being on any core of any sort, only air, right?

If it's easier to explain all this by showing me a document that which explains all this = feel free to point me there.

Quote from Lynx on December 4th, 2015, 10:54 AM

Well, normally I wouldn't get into details in such a thread like this, but since you're asking I couldn't help but noticing that by using the given numbers in the chart I can't really understand the given results in the chart for the individual coils at hand and by that I mean by using the school book formula for calculating inductive reactance, XL = 2 * PI * F * L, the numbers don't add up to match those found in the chart for the given frequencies at hand.

On the other hand it does say R @ [frequency], not XL @ [frequency] , so maybe I just don't get it, I'll buy that.

Also, if I understand it correctly each coil were separately pulsed, I.E they were not connected to any other coil as they were pulsed, while also not being on any core of any sort, only air, right?

If it's easier to explain all this by showing me a document that which explains all this = feel free to point me there.

Look at the coils reactance @ 10Khz compared to other frequencies. Most frequencies, each coil has the same ball park figure but @ 10Khz the two chokes become highly reative towards each other and the impedance is an exact match even though the coils are not evenly wound and have different static resistance. That mismatch shows up somewhere else but not in the chokes and I have measured it many times. Its called bias and is transfered to something else that is willing to except it.

Ok, thanks.

completely useless data from chart

Quote from Ris on December 4th, 2015, 11:53 AM

completely useless data from chart

please Specify what data is useless,  the comment is not helpful with out more info.

~Russ

Like Lynx said  reactance numbers do not match to the frequency,away off.

Quote from Ris on December 4th, 2015, 02:16 PM

Like Lynx said  reactance numbers do not match to the frequency,away off.

It depends what dielectric constant you use in the equasion

Ronnie, have you got a video of your cell producing gas instead of a spark plug?

Yes, but not to be shared at this point in time. Several of them. Sorry guy's that i can't be more active in the discussion, My Wife's mother is in ICU with several strokes all at once. Not looking good for her. Maybe I can be of more help later. One thing i can help with is the dielectric. Stan shows many many times that is 78.54 ohms in natural water. It can range anywhere from 70 to 80 depending on the water and Temp. Read the Tech Brief, it is referenced at least 5 or 6 times not including other documents and patents.

Quote from nav on December 4th, 2015, 02:25 PM

It depends what dielectric constant you use in the equasion

I doubting very much that temperatures from then on this planet was changed so much since the measurements are carried out.

Quote from gpssonar on December 4th, 2015, 02:47 PM

Sorry guy's that i can't be more active in the discussion, My Wife's mother is in ICU with several strokes all at once. Not looking good for her. Maybe I can be of more help later.

Sorry to hear that Ronnie, Godspeed to you and yours.

Lynx, you are not alone in not getting it, I don't understand the terminology either,

Im sure somebody must have pointed this out in the past but here's my take on it,

a chokes value & resultant opposition to current flow is expressed as Xl or inductive reactance in ohms @ any given frequency, not resistance r,
as Stan says in his talk its the magnetic field generated in the choke that opposes current flow,

I don't understand where the 78ohms for waters dielectric value comes from either,
Stan says in his talk tuning into the dielectric value of water,

since the resistance r of cells with pure water is very high and he's talking about capacitors I presume he's talking about the dielectric constant which is around 78-80 for pure water depending on temp and dissolved gases and changes as Stan says depending on contaminates in the water and the quantity of gas in the cell,

you would need an AWFULL lot of contaminants to get anything close to 78ohms of resistance,
since Stan is talking about natural & distilled water without any added electrolytes there are no or very little contaminants,

dielectric constant is a unitless value not an ohmic value,
The dielectric constant determines the capacitance value of the cells for any given plate area and spacing,
that's not resistance r its capacitive reactance or Xc in ohms at any given frequency,

when the chokes Xl is equal to the capacitors Xc they cancel to x=0 or a resonant condition,

can anybody explain where these unconventional terms come from?

Thanks.

The mathematics work perfectly in those charts. From those charts I have worked out that the inductive reactance @ 10Khz needs to be 1.02 million Ohms. It's capacitive reactance is 15.6pf
1. Flat plates: @10Khz
If you have a flat plate 24.2 x 24.2 mm2, a gap of 1mm its inductive reactance is 1.02 million Ohms @ 15.6pf in the plates.
2, Tubes: @10Khz
If you have a pair of tubes 16 inches long then you have 29,450mm2 of surface area per tube set, a gap of 5mm, and 156.6 pf per tube set. This is devided by 10 in a series calculation of 10 tube sets and is 15.6pf and 1.02 million ohms for the entire tube set.
The maths is perfect if you know what you're looking at. If you don't know what your looking at none of it will make sense and you won't be able to scale any of it down to a spark plug sized cell.