Thanks gpssonar,

I agree you could do an experiment like that but I would need to know the size of the cell he used,

I have plenty of metered variable voltage & current limit power supply's up to 40v & 50a plus a 0-600v 110ma  supply & plenty of distilled water and rain water,

a test you could do  for water resistivity uses 1cm x 1cm  plates spaced @ 1cm and shows resistivity for distilled water in the 18 million ohms region,

To get the 1cm test down to 4000ohms/cm you need about 125 ppm tds & 600ohms about 835ppm tds

Stan's chart gives a value of 78.54ohms for distilled water @ <2ppm tds,

we could calculate the plate size and spacing needed to reduce the 18 million ohms of distilled water in the 1cm test down to the 78ohms of Stans chart.

I would think you will find your answer in the gap spacing when you do your testing.. Just to help you get to a fast answer. Remember everything is variable and not fixed in both the vic and cell.

The only figure I can think of is capacitive reactance and dynamic resistance at resonance. In a band pass filter we have an inductor(secondary) that is parallel to a capacitor, both the inductor and capacitor can be replaced with a resistor but the resistor that replaces the capacitor is called a dynamic resistor in a resonant circuit and it has a calculation Rd=L/rL C.
This gives a dynamic range for the resistor as the voltage builds up because as the voltage builds up it doesn't hit the exact resonance until the maximum voltage is applied. Therefore, the cell would need a dynamic reactance through voltage amplitude.

Ronnie, if I place a voltage across my cell perhaps 1vdc in distilled water, there will be a resistance value that is related to voltage pressure and as I increase the voltage to 2v the resistive value will change. Then 4v, 6v, 8v, 10v and finally 12v. If I write each resistive value down and see the relationship, then when I use Ohms law I can calculate what that value would be at HV because it should be the same relationship at 1kv through 12kv as it is 1v through 12v.
So @ maximum voltage of perhaps 12kv the capacitive reactance for the dielectric property of distilled water should be 78.54 Ohms and this is the resistance of the voltage pressure which Stan shows as 2 semi circles.

Is the answer that is worth it's weight in gold...the power of 10? Has to do with every time it goes through the choke it's increased by a power of 10?

Quote from monster3d on December 7th, 2015, 06:02 AM

Is the answer that is worth it's weight in gold...the power of 10? Has to do with every time it goes through the choke it's increased by a power of 10?

There's just no point anymore. There are things that are important to the VIC that only certain people have been privy to having had first hand experience of or information from people that have had their hands on it. Without that information its almost impossible to reverse engineer without burning thousands of dollars worth of coils out and wasting time.
If members won't give an helping hand who know certain little things then its pointless.
Clique's taunting other members with claims of success and not prepared to share it.
Thanks to the good folks that contributed and helped me and I hope did a little bit to help others.
I've decided to scrap my Stan Meyer work in favour of a nice guitar project so in the words of good men of good will from all around the world to the 'clique of utmost super self importance':

Ok, that's a bit over the top Nav, so I removed the picture.

Oh geez...

Nav, in between coats of lacquer, have a look at this gizmo and tell me you if see something fundamental.

I do, but I need to do some experiments on each individual piece to solidify my understanding.

Sorry if I said something wrong. I know very little about this specific area and was just repeating something that someone once told me. Not trying to throw anyone off or anything.

What I do know is something is wrong with the world right now...and I have noticed a lot of things about the way things work...

In 1978 Jack Nickolson had a hydrogen car....what the hell is wrong with us?

For the greater good,
Doug

I re-read Nav's post. You can delete my previous post if you wish...I clearly see what he means now.

nav i used labview and analazed in a graph being plot in real time the resistance of the water as function of voltage..there are some osciloscope with division math funtion and you can do that measurement with a resistor and a simple probe

basically for very pure water the resistance is consistent over from 2 to 60 v what i can read direct with labview at the time...

also i measured the impedance as function of frequency by the same methode but pulsing with Half bridge... and it behaves as a capacitor indeed..

good luck to you guys

My second try at the question about chokes and the importance of the number 10.

A change in power by a factor of 10 corresponds to a 10 dB change in level. At thehalf power point an audio circuit or an antenna exhibits an attenuation of 3dB. A change in voltage by a factor of 10 results in a change in power by a factor of 100, which corresponds to a 20 dB change in level. A change in voltage ratio by a factor of 2 approximately corresponds to a 6 dB change in level.

Happy New Year!

Hello together.

Stanley Meyer used U cores with a permeability of about 2000. What speaks against it to take a toroid? The permeability is at about 5000. User Nav spoke before about.What do you think?

If you have a way to add a gap and over 10000 turns of windings to a toroid, go for it.  Seems to me this would be impractical though.

Nowadays winding a toroidal cores is not an issue. The original core of Stanley, a toroidal and a good E Core should be compared. The high permeability of cores has a positive effect on the generation of high voltage. It is also interesting whether Mulilayer winding technology from E Core is better than a single winding two coils next to each other on a U core. This should be examined more closely to the magnetic coupling to better understand. What you should also keep a close watch is the natural resonance of each individual coil.

Quote from gpssonar on December 6th, 2015, 07:17 AM

Everything I have said here has been said in my own personal thread. Good example is what has been discussed here about the dielectric changing from water to gas. How many times can you go to my thread and other places and show me where i told everyone that you had to start at 2 volts and tune and raise the voltage to 4 volts and tune and so on and so on. What is this telling you? I will answer it for you, it is telling everyone that i was tuning into the dielectric (properties of water) even Stan told everyone that was what he was doing. I would assume people has no clue what the dielectric properties of water is. I can't help if people don't have the common since to research about things they know nothing about.

Still wondering how Stan came up with the constant Re=78.54 ohms value. It is correct, he mentioned that value all over the place. Looking at his patent there is an analysis how he did the amp leakage test comparing different configurations to restrict current. In the graph we see different level of voltages and configurations. Also in the table with different types of water we see the Re of 78,54ohm.

So every water capacitor has an Re of 78.54 ohm... ?

Using the minimum gap separation of 1/16 inch we get maximum gas generation with maximum voltage.

I ask this because he said it's the gap separation which determine the operation but does this mean it's always 78.54 ohm no matter the gap separation?

Is this always valid using all kinds of water? The table with water-types states different ppm...
(rainwater 16.1ppm TDS ->25.2microS/cm).

@Ronnie,
I hope Ronnie would answer my question, why you changed the gap spacing in the WFC?
Also using the Impedance Matching Formula, I get a low turn count using the (secondary, chokes and Re) resistance.
Did he used the 1:30 ratio for the secondary only or what?

~webmug

Quote from Webmug on April 28th, 2017, 10:59 AM

Still wondering how Stan came up with the constant Re=78.54 ohms value. It is correct, he mentioned that value all over the place. Looking at his patent there is an analysis how he did the amp leakage test comparing different configurations to restrict current. In the graph we see different level of voltages and configurations. Also in the table with different types of water we see the Re of 78,54ohm.

So every water capacitor has an Re of 78.54 ohm... ?

Seems we need to know how that is done because from what I understand from Ronnie, it begins to change within the cell and we have to be able to track it electronically.

Stan uses Ohms as the unit, so maybe the calculation of impedance in free space would be a clue how we should calculate it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_of_free_space

Quote from Webmug on April 28th, 2017, 10:59 AM

Using the minimum gap separation of 1/16 inch we get maximum gas generation with maximum voltage.

I ask this because he said it's the gap separation which determine the operation but does this mean it's always 78.54 ohm no matter the gap separation?

The capacitance should continue to climb as the spacing is reduced.  But from here it doesn't look to be linear:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html

At some point though, it no longer makes sense to continue going smaller because the bubbles will no longer escape due to differences in density.

Stan says in the NZ video that the resonance changes as more bubbles in the cell effect the dielectric property but I don't think it will drop close to air because there is still a dielectric path around the bubbles, I would say it might drop to between 50 and 60 but not down to 2 or 3. If you use a capacitance calculator, a reactance calculator etc then the calculations come out at impossible ranges but I guess we are dealing with unknowns so anything can happen.
Nothing seems to fit on paper and most struggle getting voltage on the WFC at all. Was studying things this afternoon at work and it seems to me that the VIC acts in a very perculiar manner, it acts like the chokes are on another transformer core somehow compared to the primary and secondary, Stan definately says that the chokes are already primed with a magnetic field when the secondary collapses so they must have been initially primed by the core flux but then when the secondary begins to collapse they retain their magnetic field long enough during the secondary current phase to restrict such current. The only way you can think of is that the chokes are completely out of phase with the secondary somehow to cause a time delay. But in the NZ video Stan points to the negative choke and says there is a phase difference between it and the secondary. Been going through a view of Stan's papers and found several references to the negative choke marked as a current limiting inductor as well as another one that has a centre tap on the secondary which is connected to another variable inductor seperate from the two chokes. But the hardest part to understand is even though he current limits the secondary then how is he current limiting the chokes which are also by all intents and purposes also secondaries? The diode? But if he can current limit the chokes with a diode then he can also current limit the secondary with a diode so its kind of confusing. He seems to be current limiting the secondary as if the chokes are the load but the chokes have already been primed by the core flux so how can they be a load on the secondary unless they are completely decoupled from the core? Its as if it acts as one transformer during primary pulsing then turns into two transformers during pulse off time.
The chokes act like they place no load on the primary at all even though they were primed by the core flux to begin with. Perhaps its a seperate impedance that is caused by the gate where the primary initialises the core flux, primes the secondary and the chokes then the impedance caused by the gate frequency decouples the chokes from the core somehow, or perhaps the chokes were never coupled to the primary in the first place?
It seems to defy all transformer known logic and understanding.
There has got to be a definate solution somewhere along the line and if I had to make a bet it would have to relate to phase shift between the chokes and secondary that has been overlooked by mainstream science somehow. We know how to trap high impedance differential mode currents in electronics but its always on a seperate core with seperate chokes from the main transformer, there are no references anywhere to trapping high impedance, high frequency differential mode currents on the same core as the line input, it's just not written about or known about yet Stan has done it.

The chokes have got to be decoupled from the primary flux, they must be. Even if you had the two chokes 180 degrees out of phase with the primary they would still act in normal transformer mode and pass the load impedance back to the primary. How can a transformer couple magnetic flux from the primary to the chokes to build up a magnetic field during pulse on then during pulse off not be coupled to the primary and only the secondary?
C'mon, there has to be answers.

Perhaps his diode was magic lol and could pass voltage but not current.

Quote from nav on April 28th, 2017, 02:54 PM

Stan says in the NZ video that the resonance changes as more bubbles in the cell effect the dielectric property but I don't think it will drop close to air because there is still a dielectric path around the bubbles, I would say it might drop to between 50 and 60 but not down to 2 or 3. If you use a capacitance calculator, a reactance calculator etc then the calculations come out at impossible ranges but I guess we are dealing with unknowns so anything can happen.

Well Nav, I agree that the capacitance wasn't also changing much. If the capacitance would drop down with 2 or 3 dielectric the choke LC is out of range.  Stan had his 5 coiler VIC designed for natural rain water. So the ppm didn't change too much (TB water table). All that changed could be tuned with the range of the scanner electronics.



My conclusion is that the above impedance match is wrong!! Prove me wrong...

~webmug

Webmug I can't get any calculation anywhere near an LC circuit with the water gap at between 0.5mm and 1.5mm, a dielectric constant of 78-80 with the 5 coil VIC driving. The calculations are way out of range and so is the reactance.
In spice, you can't decouple the chokes from the primary even 180 degrees out of phase, none of it computes.
Anyway, going back to the New Zealand video I keep going on about Stan mentions the reason he chose 10-20khz was because it falls into the audio range and he could use audio transformers. There are no audio transformers with high impedance chokes on the core available, the chokes are stand alone and therefore decoupled from the primary so this afternoon I built an high impedance choke with two bifilars on my new ferrite core and i'm going to drive them with a 1:6 step up audio transformer.
My new power supply has arrived, my pulse gen is on order and new oscilloscope is waiting for a factory re-stock before more are available.
The choke has 100ohms of 30 gauge on each side making 4x50 ohm individual coils. It's going to be configured as a high impedance transmission line choke both sides driven by the audio transformer and are additive to the choke flux so i'm going to go for as much induction as I can get, possibly with air gaps.

Matt I know you'll have some ideas for this new choke but this circuit is on the list first. There are cross over circuits between the bifilars in some of Stan's patents so they may be on the cards but first things first I need a really good audio transformer and for the rest of my gear to come, i'm also incasing everything in an aluminium box because of the emmissions from my last experiment all over the house. And don't worry Matt, if things don't go as we want them to then the parallel resistance will be hitting the circuit (probably your spark gap idea). Those chokes though will be frequency swept to see where the voltage amplitude is greatest and where they are resonant first and then the audio transformer will be driven at half that frequency, the circuit will double the choke frequency via the diode.

Quote from nav on April 29th, 2017, 01:00 PM

Matt I know you'll have some ideas for this new choke but ...

:imsorry:

I'm a tad bit confused after this latest project, so I may not be much help until I get my head wrapped around this.   :thinking:  These are open ended coils yet they behave just as though they were normally terminated.  Somehow impedance at frequency completely overrides the infinite DC resistance.  Not just a little bit, completely.

And it's just like the problem we have with the WFC, I can't measure the capacitance at all--meter just says, "Open".

The system will use current, Stan says magnetising his cores with the magnetising current for VICS and chokes will always use current and he mentions up to 3 amps in the NZ video. If this new choke core takes magnetising current from the secondary then so be it but what we don't want it to do is go beyond that magnetising current and hopefully the diode will take care of that, stopping the choke from current reversal.