Quote from adys15 on November 2nd, 2012, 04:13 PM

Hy JP and all,today i'v been playing with alex crkt ,just the left 555 in the skem.,and Don was right .. this crkt and lawton's  does NOT output a 50% duty,because when you change the freq. you alter the duty...because you modify the resistance of the 2 10k rez(in alex skem)...I started the circuit build exactly and it was outputing 70% duty...so i put another 10k in series with the one between pin7 and pin2.....it corected the duty to 60%...then i lowered the outher 10k rez..put 4.7k and then gave 50% duty...so lawton=waist of time...that's why Stan used the decade counters on 9xa...to modify the freq without altering the duty.My 9xa is outputing distorted 50% duty signals ...and when i stop the freq selector the led still blinking...its a mess....i dont know what else to build...

my choice:

Buy a simple preprogrammed microcontroller pulse generator version 2 from www.source-for-innovations.com and you get variable duty, frequency, pll, harmonics search, multiple pulse trains with exact and variable scope parameter change features, lcd or windows display for less than 100 bucks. ask them for specific information of extended version 2 features. they are building an expanding family of customized controllers.

you´ll have no more trouble with duty shift, sponaneous frequency changes and jumps by the pots. instead you get a professional laboratory device. you also get high power switches for transformer, coils and EEC. they are galvanically isolated.
2 years ago I built some circuit like lawton, russic, globalcast.
it went into the trash can because of too many restrictions.

they are all the same 555 stuff with the same kind of trouble. professional engineers know that those 555 can´t be successfully used for full scale pulse generators. 555 is a low cost optimized long time timer with limited variability.
people will get big trouble trying to use pll lock with gating but no one has reached that level up to now as seems.

who has tried to make harmonic searches for the vic or 8xa coils? only a microcontroller serves those advanced features.

Quote from bussi04 on November 5th, 2012, 03:52 PM

Quote from adys15 on November 2nd, 2012, 04:13 PM

Hy JP and all,today i'v been playing with alex crkt ,just the left 555 in the skem.,and Don was right .. this crkt and lawton's  does NOT output a 50% duty,because when you change the freq. you alter the duty...because you modify the resistance of the 2 10k rez(in alex skem)...I started the circuit build exactly and it was outputing 70% duty...so i put another 10k in series with the one between pin7 and pin2.....it corected the duty to 60%...then i lowered the outher 10k rez..put 4.7k and then gave 50% duty...so lawton=waist of time...that's why Stan used the decade counters on 9xa...to modify the freq without altering the duty.My 9xa is outputing distorted 50% duty signals ...and when i stop the freq selector the led still blinking...its a mess....i dont know what else to build...

my choice:

Buy a simple preprogrammed microcontroller pulse generator version 2 from www.source-for-innovations.com and you get variable duty, frequency, pll, harmonics search, multiple pulse trains with exact and variable scope parameter change features, lcd or windows display for less than 100 bucks. ask them for specific information of extended version 2 features. they are building an expanding family of customized controllers.

you´ll have no more trouble with duty shift, sponaneous frequency changes and jumps by the pots. instead you get a professional laboratory device. you also get high power switches for transformer, coils and EEC. they are galvanically isolated.
2 years ago I built some circuit like lawton, russic, globalcast.
it went into the trash can because of too many restrictions.

they are all the same 555 stuff with the same kind of trouble. professional engineers know that those 555 can´t be successfully used for full scale pulse generators. 555 is a low cost optimized long time timer with limited variability.
people will get big trouble trying to use pll lock with gating but no one has reached that level up to now as seems.

who has tried to make harmonic searches for the vic or 8xa coils? only a microcontroller serves those advanced features.

Great Thought,Bussi04.

thanks
geenee

Quote from bussi04 on November 5th, 2012, 03:52 PM

my choice:

Buy a simple preprogrammed microcontroller pulse generator version 2 from www.source-for-innovations.com and you get variable duty, frequency, pll, harmonics search, multiple pulse trains with exact and variable scope parameter change features, lcd or windows display for less than 100 bucks. ask them for specific information of extended version 2 features. they are building an expanding family of customized controllers.

Bussi,
I sent them an email requesting more information, as I really like this approach.  Are you using one of these, or know of anyone else posting results using a microcontroller like this?

Quote from Badger on November 9th, 2012, 05:36 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 5th, 2012, 03:52 PM

my choice:

Buy a simple preprogrammed microcontroller pulse generator version 2 from www.source-for-innovations.com and you get variable duty, frequency, pll, harmonics search, multiple pulse trains with exact and variable scope parameter change features, lcd or windows display for less than 100 bucks. ask them for specific information of extended version 2 features. they are building an expanding family of customized controllers.

Bussi,
I sent them an email requesting more information, as I really like this approach.  Are you using one of these, or know of anyone else posting results using a microcontroller like this?

Badger,

yes, I use the windows frontend type and I also use the lcd display version. the lcd version has 2 rotary encoders for parameter input and operation control.
I will post a detailled description of the pulse generator here at the end of the week with some photos and maybe a youtube video.
Another user I know for the circuit is my research partner h2opower, a former member of this forum. he has used the harmonic search function for his VICs and WFCs to raise voltage up to more than 1000 V.
Observing an oscilloscope showing the voltage over the cell shows frequency dependent voltage dynamics. i.e. those step charging dynamics evolve in the minute range once the right frequency is found. finding the right frequency is comfortable because you can change frequency in user defined steps. i.e. frequency change step 0.5 hz or frequency change step 223 hz as you demand.
you also have exact frequency and duty control and all values have real time display. a built in isolated system bus prepares for complex motor system control i.e. CAN-bus.

enjoy :-)

Quote from bussi04 on November 11th, 2012, 09:49 AM

yes, I use the windows frontend type and I also use the lcd display version. the lcd version has 2 rotary encoders for parameter input and operation control.
I will post a detailled description of the pulse generator here at the end of the week with some photos and maybe a youtube video.
Another user I know for the circuit is my research partner h2opower, a former member of this forum. he has used the harmonic search function for his VICs and WFCs to raise voltage up to more than 1000 V.
Observing an oscilloscope showing the voltage over the cell shows frequency dependent voltage dynamics. i.e. those step charging dynamics evolve in the minute range once the right frequency is found. finding the right frequency is comfortable because you can change frequency in user defined steps. i.e. frequency change step 0.5 hz or frequency change step 223 hz as you demand.
you also have exact frequency and duty control and all values have real time display. a built in isolated system bus prepares for complex motor system control i.e. CAN-bus.

This unit you speak of seems to be far more accurate than my Arduino PulseGen setup I am using.  Are you able to tell yet if having this highly accurate resolution is key to finding resonant frequencies?  I mean does 0.5Hz in a 47.000KHz range make a noticeable difference?  I ask because it seems apparent to me I may well be stepping right over key frequencies without knowing it.

Years ago I built an engine management system for a race car when crank trigger circuits were just become the established norm.  In order to have the precision necessary, I ended up building a custom PLD PWM that was clocked by a 10MHz source with 24-bit accuracy giving me the ability to precisely manage injection and spark within tenths of degrees of crank rotation at 10,000+ RPM.  It made all the difference in the world on the track.

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Haven't tested yet.
We are going to try circuits and toroid coil with 9 tubes.
Still a week or two from assembly and wiring.
May do 1 tube testing in a day or two.
Not sure.
Sorry,
JP

Quote from MeyerandMe on November 12th, 2012, 08:31 PM

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Haven't tested yet.
We are going to try circuits and toroid coil with 9 tubes.
Still a week or two from assembly and wiring.
May do 1 tube testing in a day or two.
Not sure.
Sorry,
JP

Great ,JP.
What's spec of your toriod coil?Is it a ferrite core or soft iron core?

thanks
geenee

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Be aware that the only way you can replicate alex's setup is by preventing leakage. Alex did this by not submerging his tube completely in water but by only placing water between the inner and outer tube so the outside of the outer tube has contact with the air only. If there is any leakage at all it will not work.

Quote from Sharky on November 13th, 2012, 12:35 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Be aware that the only way you can replicate alex's setup is by preventing leakage. Alex did this by not submerging his tube completely in water but by only placing water between the inner and outer tube so the outside of the outer tube has contact with the air only. If there is any leakage at all it will not work.

He showes in one of his vides the cell submerged in water,i tried  it all believe me almost a week of testing and nothing.my test tube has water just in between ,to make it easy to understand it has a upsidedown bottle treaded on the inside of the outer tube and it is isolated by air....tried with smaler tube submered and not completely submerged..and the results wore the same...the signal looks just like the input.The only thing i haven't tried is distiled water...Cheers!!!

Quote from adys15 on November 13th, 2012, 02:27 AM

Quote from Sharky on November 13th, 2012, 12:35 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Be aware that the only way you can replicate alex's setup is by preventing leakage. Alex did this by not submerging his tube completely in water but by only placing water between the inner and outer tube so the outside of the outer tube has contact with the air only. If there is any leakage at all it will not work.

He showes in one of his vides the cell submerged in water,i tried  it all believe me almost a week of testing and nothing.my test tube has water just in between ,to make it easy to understand it has a upsidedown bottle treaded on the inside of the outer tube and it is isolated by air....tried with smaler tube submered and not completely submerged..and the results wore the same...the signal looks just like the input.The only thing i haven't tried is distiled water...Cheers!!!

Ok, if it doesn´t seem to work there is a single way to proceed here at the forum ...

Alex has to redo the experiment and show that it works. scientific method is based on replication. so an experiment must be confirmed by replication.
Alex starting this research path should jump in and support until replication is done by a second source. the setting seems to be that simple that redoing the experiment should be no problem at all.

somewhere else here at the forum people think about receiving the Keshe reactor technology information to RWG research or to make some here at the forum a US representative for that technology.

Wow!

to be serious we must implement professional interaction and cooperation to get any kind of project successfully done here. it´s not donation but technical and scientific competence that creates results. there are no technical products and processes done without exact calculation.

so where are the calculation an simulation threads?
few of us here seem to have scientific background so there is an increased demand for personal support. let´s make this playground a laboratory and interested experimentators a competence team.

that will make the move from a team with a dream to a real dream team :-)

any idea?

Quote from Dog-One on November 11th, 2012, 11:44 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 11th, 2012, 09:49 AM

yes, I use the windows frontend type and I also use the lcd display version. the lcd version has 2 rotary encoders for parameter input and operation control.
I will post a detailled description of the pulse generator here at the end of the week with some photos and maybe a youtube video.
Another user I know for the circuit is my research partner h2opower, a former member of this forum. he has used the harmonic search function for his VICs and WFCs to raise voltage up to more than 1000 V.
Observing an oscilloscope showing the voltage over the cell shows frequency dependent voltage dynamics. i.e. those step charging dynamics evolve in the minute range once the right frequency is found. finding the right frequency is comfortable because you can change frequency in user defined steps. i.e. frequency change step 0.5 hz or frequency change step 223 hz as you demand.
you also have exact frequency and duty control and all values have real time display. a built in isolated system bus prepares for complex motor system control i.e. CAN-bus.

This unit you speak of seems to be far more accurate than my Arduino PulseGen setup I am using.  Are you able to tell yet if having this highly accurate resolution is key to finding resonant frequencies?  I mean does 0.5Hz in a 47.000KHz range make a noticeable difference?  I ask because it seems apparent to me I may well be stepping right over key frequencies without knowing it.

Years ago I built an engine management system for a race car when crank trigger circuits were just become the established norm.  In order to have the precision necessary, I ended up building a custom PLD PWM that was clocked by a 10MHz source with 24-bit accuracy giving me the ability to precisely manage injection and spark within tenths of degrees of crank rotation at 10,000+ RPM.  It made all the difference in the world on the track.

the resonance effect and the step charging effect are unstable conditions. that means that there are many frequency and mark/space conditions that show no relevant effect on gas production or stay cool condition.

but there are some special pulsing frequency conditions in the VIC where Meyer effects raise. to search for them it´s no perfect choice to use a 555 timer and a 10 kOhm potentiometer where any single 1/2 mm change will result in a frequency change in the hundreds of hz at higher frequencies or in the miliseconds of space. at least you need to zoom the scales.

compare the resonance and step charging condition to an unstable dynamic process balancing a robot as shown at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn88BwA2YtI. there is no way to balance the robot by prodding by hand. in our case hands stands for a simple pot.

there is only a small parameter slot for proper operation at VIC/WFC and that is exactly what the pulse generator from www.source-for-informations.com serves for research support. once the operation conditions are found the same configuration can be reprogrammed for end product style operation.

Innovationsshop are using the same propeller processor as in the video with it´s extraordinary real time processing capacity.

Presumably as well, this is why the feedback is important - the tiny changes in the highly dynamic system will need minute adjustments based on the conditions in the WFC at any given microsecond (like the surface area covered by bubbles, changes in heat, etc).  It seems logical to me that this would need to be at a high resolution within known operating parameters - so using things like an arduino may be possible if the digital resoultion is "zoomed" right in to where the magic happens and not across a full range of higher and lower frequencies.

Quote from bussi04 on November 13th, 2012, 03:50 AM

Quote from Dog-One on November 11th, 2012, 11:44 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 11th, 2012, 09:49 AM

yes, I use the windows frontend type and I also use the lcd display version. the lcd version has 2 rotary encoders for parameter input and operation control.
I will post a detailled description of the pulse generator here at the end of the week with some photos and maybe a youtube video.
Another user I know for the circuit is my research partner h2opower, a former member of this forum. he has used the harmonic search function for his VICs and WFCs to raise voltage up to more than 1000 V.
Observing an oscilloscope showing the voltage over the cell shows frequency dependent voltage dynamics. i.e. those step charging dynamics evolve in the minute range once the right frequency is found. finding the right frequency is comfortable because you can change frequency in user defined steps. i.e. frequency change step 0.5 hz or frequency change step 223 hz as you demand.
you also have exact frequency and duty control and all values have real time display. a built in isolated system bus prepares for complex motor system control i.e. CAN-bus.

This unit you speak of seems to be far more accurate than my Arduino PulseGen setup I am using.  Are you able to tell yet if having this highly accurate resolution is key to finding resonant frequencies?  I mean does 0.5Hz in a 47.000KHz range make a noticeable difference?  I ask because it seems apparent to me I may well be stepping right over key frequencies without knowing it.

Years ago I built an engine management system for a race car when crank trigger circuits were just become the established norm.  In order to have the precision necessary, I ended up building a custom PLD PWM that was clocked by a 10MHz source with 24-bit accuracy giving me the ability to precisely manage injection and spark within tenths of degrees of crank rotation at 10,000+ RPM.  It made all the difference in the world on the track.

the resonance effect and the step charging effect are unstable conditions. that means that there are many frequency and mark/space conditions that show no relevant effect on gas production or stay cool condition.

but there are some special pulsing frequency conditions in the VIC where Meyer effects raise. to search for them it´s no perfect choice to use a 555 timer and a 10 kOhm potentiometer where any single 1/2 mm change will result in a frequency change in the hundreds of hz at higher frequencies or in the miliseconds of space. at least you need to zoom the scales.

compare the resonance and step charging condition to an unstable dynamic process balancing a robot as shown at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn88BwA2YtI. there is no way to balance the robot by prodding by hand. in our case hands stands for a simple pot.

there is only a small parameter slot for proper operation at VIC/WFC and that is exactly what the pulse generator from www.source-for-informations.com serves for research support. once the operation conditions are found the same configuration can be reprogrammed for end product style operation.

Innovationsshop are using the same propeller processor as in the video with it´s extraordinary real time processing capacity.

I was planning on going the route of the Arduino PulseGen, but now I'm reconsidering.  Bussi, that would be great if you could post some more info on the pulse generator you're using, I think I would like to give that a try.  Wish they would email me back... I'm not even sure if they will to ship to US or not.  Like you say, we need more experimenters posting data and results!

DogOne,
I'm impressed you were able to build your own engine management system, that must have taken some serious effort.  I was trying to find an open source, "off the shelf" ECU that could work for this application, thinking it would be too much work to build one from scratch.  Did you look into that option, like Freescale? or something like that?

Quote from Badger on November 13th, 2012, 10:19 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 13th, 2012, 03:50 AM

Quote from Dog-One on November 11th, 2012, 11:44 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 11th, 2012, 09:49 AM

yes, I use the windows frontend type and I also use the lcd display version. the lcd version has 2 rotary encoders for parameter input and operation control.
I will post a detailled description of the pulse generator here at the end of the week with some photos and maybe a youtube video.
Another user I know for the circuit is my research partner h2opower, a former member of this forum. he has used the harmonic search function for his VICs and WFCs to raise voltage up to more than 1000 V.
Observing an oscilloscope showing the voltage over the cell shows frequency dependent voltage dynamics. i.e. those step charging dynamics evolve in the minute range once the right frequency is found. finding the right frequency is comfortable because you can change frequency in user defined steps. i.e. frequency change step 0.5 hz or frequency change step 223 hz as you demand.
you also have exact frequency and duty control and all values have real time display. a built in isolated system bus prepares for complex motor system control i.e. CAN-bus.

This unit you speak of seems to be far more accurate than my Arduino PulseGen setup I am using.  Are you able to tell yet if having this highly accurate resolution is key to finding resonant frequencies?  I mean does 0.5Hz in a 47.000KHz range make a noticeable difference?  I ask because it seems apparent to me I may well be stepping right over key frequencies without knowing it.

Years ago I built an engine management system for a race car when crank trigger circuits were just become the established norm.  In order to have the precision necessary, I ended up building a custom PLD PWM that was clocked by a 10MHz source with 24-bit accuracy giving me the ability to precisely manage injection and spark within tenths of degrees of crank rotation at 10,000+ RPM.  It made all the difference in the world on the track.

the resonance effect and the step charging effect are unstable conditions. that means that there are many frequency and mark/space conditions that show no relevant effect on gas production or stay cool condition.

but there are some special pulsing frequency conditions in the VIC where Meyer effects raise. to search for them it´s no perfect choice to use a 555 timer and a 10 kOhm potentiometer where any single 1/2 mm change will result in a frequency change in the hundreds of hz at higher frequencies or in the miliseconds of space. at least you need to zoom the scales.

compare the resonance and step charging condition to an unstable dynamic process balancing a robot as shown at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn88BwA2YtI. there is no way to balance the robot by prodding by hand. in our case hands stands for a simple pot.

there is only a small parameter slot for proper operation at VIC/WFC and that is exactly what the pulse generator from www.source-for-informations.com serves for research support. once the operation conditions are found the same configuration can be reprogrammed for end product style operation.

Innovationsshop are using the same propeller processor as in the video with it´s extraordinary real time processing capacity.

I was planning on going the route of the Arduino PulseGen, but now I'm reconsidering.  Bussi, that would be great if you could post some more info on the pulse generator you're using, I think I would like to give that a try.  Wish they would email me back... I'm not even sure if they will to ship to US or not.  Like you say, we need more experimenters posting data and results!

DogOne,
I'm impressed you were able to build your own engine management system, that must have taken some serious effort.  I was trying to find an open source, "off the shelf" ECU that could work for this application, thinking it would be too much work to build one from scratch.  Did you look into that option, like Freescale? or something like that?

in this video http://youtu.be/GnpPhfVBsXM you can watch what Meyer described as the step charging effect. the voltage increases over a long time of serveral minutes until it reaches maximum peak voltage.

we have always to keep in mind that Meyer´s tech looks fairly simple but it isn´t at all. all components must exactly fit to one another.

in this video the circuit used by True Green Solutions from Innovationsshop allows to set up a pulse window of exactly 5 pulses with pulse length adjusted in the 100s´ ns range and the same for the gating space time. you can´t get that with 2 timers 555 because gating on time scale is not syncronized to the pulse time base there.
the best you can expect for 555 is sweeping pulses between 4 and 6 or 3 and 7 and changing pulse count from 5 to 4 or from 5 to 6 makes a real difference in step charging behaviour. you also can expect that the first pulse and/or the last pulse of the pulse train is shortened for the same reason mentioned above.

that shows the advantage of an exact laboratory pulse generator where all time bases are stable and synchronized over a dual timer based circuit.

at the end of the week I will show sample configurations of pgen V2.0 and some more description and application information.

stay tuned!

Quote from geenee on November 12th, 2012, 10:44 PM

Quote from MeyerandMe on November 12th, 2012, 08:31 PM

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Haven't tested yet.
We are going to try circuits and toroid coil with 9 tubes.
Still a week or two from assembly and wiring.
May do 1 tube testing in a day or two.
Not sure.
Sorry,
JP

Great ,JP.
What's spec of your toriod coil?Is it a ferrite core or soft iron core?

thanks
geenee

Until we have tested and proven a circuit and coils we don't think it makes sense to say what we built.
When we have something successful that we can spec out we will be ready to share it.
There is no help for anyone telling about things that haven't proven to work.
Cheers,
JP

Quote from MeyerandMe on November 15th, 2012, 02:25 PM

Quote from geenee on November 12th, 2012, 10:44 PM

Quote from MeyerandMe on November 12th, 2012, 08:31 PM

Quote from adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 12:47 PM

Hy JP!Did you manage to get Alex's circuit to work?i tested diffrent caps and variations of wfc,coils,diodes..bateries...nothing worked,the voltage staid low,and the signals looked the same as input....

Haven't tested yet.
We are going to try circuits and toroid coil with 9 tubes.
Still a week or two from assembly and wiring.
May do 1 tube testing in a day or two.
Not sure.
Sorry,
JP

Great ,JP.
What's spec of your toriod coil?Is it a ferrite core or soft iron core?

thanks
geenee

Until we have tested and proven a circuit and coils we don't think it makes sense to say what we built.
When we have something successful that we can spec out we will be ready to share it.
There is no help for anyone telling about things that haven't proven to work.
Cheers,
JP

Btw today i tried with distiled water and the voltage climbed 2 volts more(8v) and the rest was the same...

to ionize water need 20kv++/for mininum distance(maybe 1mm gap).back emf that can work that.hard to make stable dc high voltage(20kv) and cause break down dielectric(amps flow).just high voltage spike.that i think.

thanks
geenee

Quote from geenee on November 15th, 2012, 06:48 PM

to ionize water need 20kv++/for mininum distance(maybe 1mm gap).back emf that can work that.hard to make stable dc high voltage(20kv) and cause break down dielectric(amps flow).just high voltage spike.that i think.

thanks
geenee

That's what I also think Meyer used in his WFC, extremely short bursts of HV DC.
I think that's the only way to apply any kind of high voltage to a pair of electrodes
submerged in water.
That has yet to be proved, hopefully it's not too far away though :)

Quote from Lynx on November 16th, 2012, 01:20 AM

Quote from geenee on November 15th, 2012, 06:48 PM

to ionize water need 20kv++/for mininum distance(maybe 1mm gap).back emf that can work that.hard to make stable dc high voltage(20kv) and cause break down dielectric(amps flow).just high voltage spike.that i think.

thanks
geenee

That's what I also think Meyer used in his WFC, extremely short bursts of HV DC.
I think that's the only way to apply any kind of high voltage to a pair of electrodes
submerged in water.
That has yet to be proved, hopefully it's not too far away though :)

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

I tried puting 2 wfc in series but the voltage droped even more...what a surprise!

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

I tried puting 2 wfc in series but the voltage droped even more...what a surprise!

they must be isolated from each other at the outside tube so that current can´t bypass the serial configuration in  a common water bath.

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

Because it is a dynamic system I think the PLL is not fast enough to balancing the changin effects in the WFC.
Also more than one water type should work...Stan said it worked with all types of water and when there are more contaminents (dirt,salt,...) in the water the frequency of the PLL was automatically rising.
I was thinking also on a charging pump application for the capacity of the WFC. Unfortunately the low resistance of water will always short out this capacity. So no load can be saved.
Do you have a source to the 50µs? This looks quite fast. So the step charging musst be finished after this period of time. The frequency of the short pulses musst be quite higher to gain voltage like in a charging pump.

Yeah thats right, but also for meyers circuits the laws of electrotechnical circuits operation are valid. Btw. do we know which high voltage is necessary to ionize or split water without amps.

Thanks, Amsy :)

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

I tried puting 2 wfc in series but the voltage droped even more...what a surprise!

Which voltage? voltage measured over one WFC? Or the overall voltage of the VIC?

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 08:10 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

I tried puting 2 wfc in series but the voltage droped even more...what a surprise!

they must be isolated from each other at the outside tube so that current can´t bypass the serial configuration in  a common water bath.

very isolated,2separated bothles with 1tube in each

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 09:11 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

Because it is a dynamic system I think the PLL is not fast enough to balancing the changin effects in the WFC.
Also more than one water type should work...Stan said it worked with all types of water and when there are more contaminents (dirt,salt,...) in the water the frequency of the PLL was automatically rising.
I was thinking also on a charging pump application for the capacity of the WFC. Unfortunately the low resistance of water will always short out this capacity. So no load can be saved.
Do you have a source to the 50µs? This looks quite fast. So the step charging musst be finished after this period of time. The frequency of the short pulses musst be quite higher to gain voltage like in a charging pump.

Yeah thats right, but also for meyers circuits the laws of electrotechnical circuits operation are valid. Btw. do we know which high voltage is necessary to ionize or split water without amps.

Thanks, Amsy :)

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Quote from bussi04 on November 16th, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote from Amsy on November 16th, 2012, 04:20 AM

Quote from adys15 on November 16th, 2012, 03:30 AM

Thouse hv bursts will end up 10v...even if you increase the impedance of the wfc.ohm's law bulshetU=I*R=10V from 20kv...where r=10M...bulPoo...

I can agree to this.
There is no chance to hit a low resistance like water with 20kV.
So on every secondary side of high voltage transfo the voltage will brake down, because it nearly a dead short circuit.
You can calculate which power would be necessary to reach 20kV on the water.
P=U²/R --> so you can replace the variable U with 20kV and R with a very tiny value, like 20 ohms or something for water because of the ions inside.
For comparison:
Air does have a large ohmic resistance. Replace the variable R with a very high value and you will see whats happening. The VIC has a hugh difference in function when ideling or like dead short with water.

But we have not only high pulses.
There is an Diode-L-CR-L Network which is been feeded with positive (diode) voltage pulses. So that the voltage can rise on the secondary, it is necessary that the resistance will go up. For example: Meyer did this by replacing the coils with stainless steel wire to get ~12kOhms /coil. Thats a good value. Depending which power is feeded in on the primary side, U secondary=sqrt(PxR).
So because of the large coils, the high frequency and the R inside the coils, the current is inhibited, thats a good basic to prevent electrolyses. But which Effect will this have on the C?
The C will be loaded with every puls. But how high is the ending voltage in the C. Does the C load to the value of the peaks? Or maybe lower because of the voltage dividing effect of the network?

Basically there is no magic behind producing high voltages out of a flyback or an Obit or something like this. It is always depending on the complete Z on the secondary side. When high enough you reach high voltage.
regards!

h2opower´s experiment shows that 10 isolated steel tubes in line in destilled water driven by a VIC of a primary, 1 secondary, 2 magnet wire coils, 2 steel wire coils can be stressed to 500 - 1000 V. that means 50 to 100 V over a single cell. And there is step charging.

water as a dielectric is a good isolator for at least 50 µs until dielectric breakdown. so imagine the pulsing core configuration as a charge pump being supplied by moderate RMS amps at the primary and supplying high peak amps phase shifted to voltage for a short time at vic output. or think about the vic being a damped LCL oscillator with specific magnetic flux (because of the steel wire) with primary pulse excitement.

it´s a dynamic system! as you can´t expect a car engine working fired by a sequence of matches (wrong timing and wrong adjustment) you cant´t expect Meyer´s WFC work beyond the limits of operational parameters. those are core, inductance, capacitance, resistance, length, distance, pressure, water quality, voltage and timing.

I tried puting 2 wfc in series but the voltage droped even more...what a surprise!

Which voltage? voltage measured over one WFC? Or the overall voltage of the VIC?

across wfc's