OK, thanks, I didn't realise that, 
I only worked on petrol engines requiring electronic ignition.

In that case I assume that to inject the gas it will need to be compressed
to a higher pressure than the compression in the cylinder
is there no risk of detonation before it enters the cylinder?

just did a little googling, this extract seems to summarise;
" It was shown that the initial pressure above 1 bar reduces the auto-ignition temperature.
For instance, the auto-ignition temperature of 778 K at 2 bar of initial pressure
reduces to the temperature of 687 K at pressure of 74 bar.
Dilution of the stoichiometric hydrogen-oxygen mixture with up to 75% of steam
increases an auto-ignition temperature only in 15-20K depending on the initial pressure."

using the ideal gas law P.V=R.T implies to me that somewhere between 2.5 and 3 atmospheres compression
the gas could autoignite,
some of the heat caused by compression will be carried away by the walls of the  compression device
but theoretically it still seems quite a risk to me.
what am I missing? (other than practical experience with HHO)

True that, HHO development, and production is the main problem of on board cells in cars. the volume of fuel must be high enough to work correctly.

I would start with a lawn mower, or small gas generator. even a moped, or motor bike. a chain saw perhaps.

with a small enough motor on board hho cells should work well.  CFM of a 8 cylinder motor requires over 750 cfm  a volume of fuel air mixture to meet the demands of the motor..

we all now that HHO is corrosive, and i would use stainless steel cylinder wall jackets, and pistons if you want to use this method for street use it is true it will reduce the motors life if not modified.

A hydrogen fuel cell would be a better way to use this power, and convert it  to electricity. 

to sulaiman: in stans system, he adds exhaust gases back into the water, in order to change the flame rate of the hho to match gasoline, the exhaust gases ( largely nitrogen), I'm guessing their will be not much oxygen in the exhaust gases.Someone else might be able to explain it better,
but he did experiments and found he could adjust the flame burn rate to be same as petrol ( or whatever fuel the engine ran on). This also meant the timing didn't need adjusting ( I think!).
Have you got a link for the article you quoted on compression and hho ignition, I would be interested to read it?
to freethisone: you mention 750cfm what are the units 'cfm'?

my extract was from an extract http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/csd/events/GK2012/presentations/posters/88Kuznetsov.pdf
a google search for "hydrogen oxygen flame speed" will keep you busy for days!

mixing the HHO with exhaust gas ... I have vague memories of this
I think that for petrol or diesel engines the purpose was to maintain compression at low throttle for economy,
but I'm not sure ...
my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a... fraid.

Quote from brettly on March 11th, 2015, 03:40 AM

too Russ:
have you got a modified injector drawing that irons out the errors in the previous dimensions/drawings of stans that had some errors as previously brought up in this thread?


to sulaiman: in stans system, he adds exhaust gases back into the water, in order to change the flame rate of the hho to match gasoline, the exhaust gases ( largely nitrogen), I'm guessing their will be not much oxygen in the exhaust gases.Someone else might be able to explain it better,
but he did experiments and found he could adjust the flame burn rate to be same as petrol ( or whatever fuel the engine ran on). This also meant the timing didn't need adjusting ( I think!).
Have you got a link for the article you quoted on compression and hho ignition, I would be interested to read it?
to freethisone: you mention 750cfm what are the units 'cfm'?

can you please point out any errors you may be talking about. if there in this thread then i should look, but i know we spent a lot of time going over things to make sure there right...



on the exhaust, its not going back in to the water. its going back in to the air intake. just FYI.

thanks,

~Russ

CFM i think is the correct abbreviation.  the rate, and volume of air going into the air intake.  or like a holly carburetor,   800 cfm, 750 cfm relates to the volume of air flow.

by use of the o2 side of the hho cell, and only piping in fresh 02 before the mass air, unit, should result in a more clean burn of fuel. with no adverse effects on the motor.

it was said millions of years ago 02 levels on earth were about 22%

Quote from brettly on March 11th, 2015, 03:40 AM

what are the units 'cfm'?

CFM is Cubic Feet per Minute

Here is one of those handy online converters: :)
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/flow_rate_volume/ft3_min.html

ok cfm technically would be cf/m, maybe its common to just use cfm.
to russ: I posted a pic of error on page 6 this thread

http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=1586.0;attach=4382;image

     

Question

What are the Benefits of exhaust Re feed besides controlling flame speed?

For Example HH+O into diesel and add exhaust refeed

Dan
danieldonatelli1@gmail.com

Emissions (NOX) and flame speed.  That would about cover it.

If you have water droplets and not steam, you will get some amount of added power with the droplets flashing over to steam.

 thinking there is more here, refeed of hh and O  as water and pushing out the nitrogen from air intensifying the bang
and push result need more info on this

to Share info so people IMPLEMENT  it

Daniel

Modern cars use EGR valves to recirculate exhaust gasses back into the combustion chamber. The primary reason for this is to lower the combustion chamber temperatures. By keeping the temperatures in the cylinder below 2000 deg F. prevents the formation of NOX gasses. That's it. Stan uses the gasses to slow down the burn rate of the hydrogen by diluting it with the spent gasses that are not burnable.
Don

Yes Don, most correct.  The basic principal is to separate (molecularly) the fuel from the oxidizer; doing this controls the reaction speed and intensity.  If you take a compound like nano-thermite for instance, the reason it is so powerful is because the oxidizer is in very close proximity to the reactive element (the fuel).  This is essentially what we have in a gaseous state with HHO--an extremely well mixed stoichiometric substance.  Consider the fire triangle (Fuel, Oxygen & Ignition), with HHO all we lack is the ignition, the fuel (Hydrogen) and the Oxygen is all distributed exactly right for nearly instantaneous combustion.

By creating the correct barrier between the fuel and Oxygen, we can control the combustion rate based on the amount of time needed for these two components to migrate and come in contact with each other.  This barrier can be Nitrogen, water, anything inert that can separate the fuel from the Oxygen.

Just a tidbit to toss out there...

I was fortunate enough to visit the General Motors Powertrain engineering facility in Pontiac Michigan.  What I got to see was the research being done using microwave ignition systems.  The problem the engineers were having and probably why you don't see vehicles today with these systems is that the fuel/air mix would spontaneously combust.  There was no flame front that would drive the piston down.  All of the fuel would instantly combust in all directions; the effect being much like HHO.  This is completely counter to the way a piston engine needs the fuel to burn--a nice steady controlled push that drives the piston (not the cylinder walls and head).

A good example of how fuel should burn in a piston engine is actually much like a firearm with gunpowder.  You want a flame front that progresses in a linear direction, burning at a controlled rate and ending when the piston/projectile no longer needs additional acceleration energy.  Gunpowder is actually manufactured to precisely create a barrier between the fuel and oxidizer, so the burn rate is consistent and predictable, creating just the right amount of pressure.

Quote from Matt Watts on April 14th, 2015, 08:02 PM

Yes Don, most correct.  The basic principal is to separate (molecularly) the fuel from the oxidizer; doing this controls the reaction speed and intensity.  If you take a compound like nano-thermite for instance, the reason it is so powerful is because the oxidizer is in very close proximity to the reactive element (the fuel).  This is essentially what we have in a gaseous state with HHO--an extremely well mixed stoichiometric substance.  Consider the fire triangle (Fuel, Oxygen & Ignition), with HHO all we lack is the ignition, the fuel (Hydrogen) and the Oxygen is all distributed exactly right for nearly instantaneous combustion.

By creating the correct barrier between the fuel and Oxygen, we can control the combustion rate based on the amount of time needed for these two components to migrate and come in contact with each other.  This barrier can be Nitrogen, water, anything inert that can separate the fuel from the Oxygen.

Just a tidbit to toss out there...

I was fortunate enough to visit the General Motors Powertrain engineering facility in Pontiac Michigan.  What I got to see was the research being done using microwave ignition systems.  The problem the engineers were having and probably why you don't see vehicles today with these systems is that the fuel/air mix would spontaneously combust.  There was no flame front that would drive the piston down.  All of the fuel would instantly combust in all directions; the effect being much like HHO.  This is completely counter to the way a piston engine needs the fuel to burn--a nice steady controlled push that drives the piston (not the cylinder walls and head).

A good example of how fuel should burn in a piston engine is actually much like a firearm with gunpowder.  You want a flame front that progresses in a linear direction, burning at a controlled rate and ending when the piston/projectile no longer needs additional acceleration energy.  Gunpowder is actually manufactured to precisely create a barrier between the fuel and oxidizer, so the burn rate is consistent and predictable, creating just the right amount of pressure.

:thumbsup2:

Quote from Secure Supplies on March 24th, 2015, 06:26 PM

thinking there is more here, refeed of hh and O  as water and pushing out the nitrogen from air intensifying the bang
and push result need more info on this

ALSO PREVENTS BACKFIRE

https://youtu.be/lJKCZhyh4nE




to Share info so people IMPLEMENT  it

Daniel

any progress on the injectors?
anyone managed to make a bang or flame .................or something????
cant wait to see any results!

Quote from ~Russ on April 14th, 2015, 09:23 PM

:thumbsup2:

simple split the injector into two flame fronts, or I have the ultimate invention. adding hyper active ozone, and nitrogen into the mix to fuel the oxidizer  at much greater speed...
in fact its very simple.

I simply advance these concepts before your eyes..
new injector type. v type flames fronts.
hho  vaporized instantaneously into  superheated steam, at even boiling water temperatures..

on demand with a simple glow plug under pressure.. hit  the steam with 50,000 volts under pressure.  even ultrasonic fog will work..

I have many new advancements .

I can make a ozone nitrogen rector that burns co2....and water...

I just looked at the video link above. I went and visited that hydrogen car project about 20years ago, they had a newer model when i visited, the hydrate storage system was installed and working. A little bit about that project: i'm not sure if it still continues ( I'm guessing it is), as each year new students ( undergrads) would work on the project. They developed a wealth of technical knowledge on what modifications are needed to run an engine on hydrogen. And there are many.
It looks like electric cars are going to take some of the car market, rather than hydrogen. Though in the longer term there is still a place for water based vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aixCHPnXBZg

nope... I haven't tested it yet. then again i still have more work to do on the VIC...  wheres the time... will get there.

any of you think you have what it takes ? a simple portable torch  is made by making the nozzle and glow plug. by  testing water from steam, or, heat,  mist or fog from transducer or  directly to a flame. by use of glow plug. Or, carbon ark.

FYI, h2oplasmaplug has already done some tests like that. years ago. ~Russ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-vqi6FNztI

yea well as you see this is a good start.

needs advancements. this is the precondition of steam to a vapor , the rare gas is now primed. a glow plug is used to precondition the water into a superheated steam. the ozone from the ark is a added feature.


now I use a inline tesla turbine to mix the ozone, and water. just for fun.. includes the pressure needed., and volume of vapor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVMDIqxpyuE

there are many more ways to do this..

one common misconception is that in the voltage zone the gases and water droplets are still gaseous and droplets ( a mixture), the water condenses under pressure when going into the voltage zone.
So in fact you have liquid bulk water with dissolved gases in it.
The injector in my view works on the same method as the wfc ( 9 cylinder tubes), there is continuous bulk liquid water inbetween stainless plates, the injector is same thing but much smaller surface area and higher pressure, plus very fast movement of bulk water across the voltage zone.

Nice piece of work, that ceramic and steel injector. I like to hear about anyone who managed to run at idle at least, an engine with that water/electrolytic gases emulsion.
I bet no one will do it!
As Meyer never did it!
The water as fuel is a misconception.
An internal combustion engine is pressure differential machine. To replace the fuel combustion ( pressure generator with more than 70% thermal looses) one need to inject a fluid that will expand.
A liquid that become gaseous. It need an electrochemical close loop "reactor " involving water, air and electricity.
 Only spark plug engines may work.

 Any electric spark on air ( no fuel used ) will ionize the air producing instable ionic compounds. Ionizing water and mixing it with exhausted gases from previous cycle generate various nitrogen compounds.
 Nitrogen is " chemically compressed".

Hydrogen( as gas)  ammount is required to assure detonation that will trigger deflagration of the mixture.
Homogenous ignition.

To convert an engine on this mixture one need to replace or modify the throttle also.
The engine should run on very low fresh ( but also " prepared" by ionization ) air and mostly on close loop.
The electric  energy to convert air and water in explosive mixtures is at least equal than kinetic energy  provided by deflagration of this.
Think to a Moebius strip.

And to not forget the neglected PCV oil fumes!
If engine is old enough to produce this oil vapors and the oil quality is the right one then the thermal energy is at least equal with gasoline vapours that were proved to offer 100-400 mpg.

Overall is not hydrogen from water as fuel.
It may be possible to produce more hydrogen by an inteligent voltage/ current manipulation of an LC.
But it aslo produce the best main ingredient : hydrogen peroxide!
Low current, high DC voltage over water lead to Ionization:
2H2O+voltage=H3O+OH
By alternating the polarity at certain frequency next step may be electro- oxidation of water:
2H2O+voltage= 2H+H2O2
The input is voltage and OH(-)  may release an "internal" electron to one temporarily attached proton from H3O(+) but there is not such thing of a magic frequency of water.

Is a combination of factors  to every device and conditions.
Not need that injector to be exactly as Meyer did it!