That I did not check K8    It does change something on VIC output you can see it 3 pictures above that showed coil output above, below 50% at 50% and above 50% it could be caused by the voltage level change I just did not look at it that way but this is one of the effects of changing voltage level.  I just did not try to measure it.  Can see the VIC 50% one in last picture as well.   With other settings I had set if you drop below 50 the signal goes away which what happens when you lower voltage drops below minimum value.  When you raise voltage the AM signal fills in more.   I have seen this happen in my testing when I was changing the offset voltage.

To some extend you can also see the signal fill in when you change the gain on VIC.

What I do not know is how much you can get it to change.  My guess is it will go up some but not all the way to 11/12 volts.  Will check both K8 and VIC and report results.  I believe in pictures of VIC I had scope set to display DC offset. What is miss leading in picture is the Digital pulse is always 12V.

Earl

From Ronnies Video posted earlier in the the top yellow trace is taken from the K8 output , so the  we understand from that video and comments is that
the gate  changes and the k8 applied voltage (yellow will rise as accelerator pressed

so of coarse be interesting to see we have that occurring with the new set up and tps
Dan

https://youtu.be/rxAXwFLd6YU

Dan,

I did some additional testing today focused on K8 output and input from K11 though I also looked at VIC output.  Found K8 output does change with M input.  Voltage level of M does not change it is the duty cycle change that cause the voltage output change.  I did capture screen shots and will post them.

I did find a couple of issues that we will need to resolve.  I will show what they are in follow up which will take me a while to write up.  Basic problem, which I had found in my first test system, is we need to change phasing of the K8 and K3 signals.   The M signal going to K3 is correct but we need to invert signal going to K8.

This will fix 2 things  1) put the digital signal in the pulse and not in the space in the signal going out of VIC 2) cause the Voltage of K8 to rise with larger duty cycle instead of fall, 

Glad I did this test I had tried several different things to get K8 voltage output to change none of them worked did not think about duty cycle.

I expect we will need to make 2 changes I) to K11 to select inverted pulse to K8 and get it on output pin and 2) Vic to change path to K8

Earl

Yes very good the K8 is important it was a piggy back daughter board before on the k11  but we  put a db 37 on it and hard wired into matric main board  Very great  as we advance these main board  tools help us find the  things out  with out re wiring every thing each time I hope
Dan

I did several tests to see effect of changes then settled on a fairly standard scope settings the first pictures is different setup but wanted to show it as it was not what I expected.

P1 shows the output of the K11 test point and the output of K11 M/M1 signal from the schematic I expected them to be the same, but they are not they are inverted from each other.

CH1 Yellow K11 Test Point
CH2 Blue K11 M/M1 Output

The pictures P2 – P8 I used the following scope setup you can see duty cycle and voltage levels on analog signals in the picture.  I tried to capture both K8 and VIC outputs at each duty cycle setting.

CH1 Yellow was on K11 Test Point do show duty cycle
CH2 Blue is either K8 or VIC Output intent is to show voltage level and signal for each duty cycle.

At this point I decide that while the above is useful information it did not accurately reflect the input that K8 and VIC are seeing as the K11 Test Point is inverted from M and it turns out also the K3 output.  I did check that M and K2 they are in sync as they allowed me to use the K3 output to show the current duty cycle.  The pictures PP1 to PP5 show several different duty cycles.

Scope setup for this set
CH1 Yellow is on K3 output
CH2 Blue is either K8 or VIC Output

Couple of things to (1) As duty cycle goes down the voltage goes up – this is the reverse of what happened in the first set of pictures.  Actual input did not change only the duty cycle information from reference changed as the actual signal is inverted from the K11 test reference in first set. (Duty cycle is also reversed).  (2) If you look at the VIC output you will see that the Digital signal is now in the Pulse where it should be not in the space like it was in first set of pictures.

You will see PP5 has a higher duty cycle than PP4 even though it PP5 says lowest setting that is because I had to raise duty cycle to get signal out of VIC to show.  (note:  I was not changing any other settings during this test and you maybe able to get signal at lower duty cycle if you adjust offset and/or gain on VIC)

I my original test system I had to invert the K3 input to get the digital signal to be on rising part of AM signal.  We may need to do the same thing here but, in this case, I believe we need to invert the signal to K8 so that voltage rises with duty cycle instead of decrease.  (Remember in the first set duty cycle was backwards from actual input but it showed voltage increasing with duty cycle.)

This should be easy to do as K11 creates multiple outputs that are basically the same single or the same signal inverted.  What I do not have is the K11 Gerber that shows 37 pin connector mapping to K11 outputs. Note: Schematic shows input to K8 to be synced to fall edge.

I would like to double check that inverting K8 input works and I also want to check the VIC has the AM signal and Digital signal properly in phase.

Very Cool Like this Scope shots

I feel we should be careful not to change the Circuits as they are made by stan and will do as stan had them doing,
 some inversion may incur at or in vic

the gerber k11 db 37 was posted in this thread earlier

Thanks I found it.   Was checking the phase of the M/M1, M2, M3 and M4 and checking to make sure the signals get through to the terminals pads in front of the 37 pin connect on Matrix board.   I verified path for everything and it is correct.  But I did find an issue which maybe caused by me using CD4081BE chip as a replacement for the SN7408N chip.  Both are quad duel input AND chips.

The M/M1 and M4 signals get through this chip as the both go thru an inverter that pulls signal up to 5 volt levels.  The M2 and M3 signals go the AND gate directly from the 122N and are on the correct input pins but signal level is too low and there is no output.   I have order some other 4708 chips to see if they will work.   Not a big problem for us as we are not currently using either M3 or M4 but wanted to report what I found.   Replacements chips should be here Friday and I will retest. 

In other places Stan has fed output of 122N either thru and amplifier or pull circuit before using 122n output.

After verifying M4 works and is the inverse of M I modified VIC Matrix I cut the M trace from K11 to both K8 and K3 see picture.  On my VIC Matrix I ran a jumper from K11 M4 to K8 M terminal (may want to relabel K8 terminal M4).  I also ran a jumper from K11 M terminal to K2 M terminal.  You can see changes needed to VIC Matrix in picture below.

Reason for this is to put the signals going to K8 and K3 in the proper sync.  I will show this in test pictures below

After making these changes I captured a few screen shots to shows effect of changes.

A made no changes to K11 other than fix a bad connection to M4 path.  What I did change is the input to K8 on the VIC Matrix, it is now M4.  While I did rewire the M input to K3 that was only to remove K8 from the trace path.

Keep in mind both M and M4 signals are generated by LS122N on K11. They are just the inverse of each other.  I made this change as K8 schematic shows sync on falling pulse and K3 does not.  (My earlier testing show me this was required testing above showed correct signal for each board)

I capture a few screen shots to show the effect of this change.
Scope setup
CH1 Yellow is K3 output in all case and shows duty cycle
CH2 Blue is K8 output, I left table to show voltage levels

Picture PM1 shows that the rise of the AM starts with the start of the pulse.  I used a low scale setting so you can better see the AM wave.

Picture PM2 – PM4 have the scale changed so voltage rise stays on screen.  You can also see that the voltage now rises with increased duty cycle.

Picture PM5 show K3 and VIC output to show that the digital information is in the pulse as it should be.

I will admit I did not expect changing duty cycle to affect the voltage level like it does. But this answers one of the questions I had when I start this project, where is voltage level changed?

Note:  The output levels of K8 lower and upper limits are set by the offset and gain pots on front panel of K8 (these are the same pads that were on original K11 front panel).  I now can see their purpose as they do not do much when input has a fix 50% duty cycle.

I plan on going back to my K8 document and add information about the affect of duty cycle.  This is an import piece of information that is missing.

ok

Dan,

Update attached document to include test results above and information an explanation about the affect that a variable duty cycle has on K8 output [A].   I have changed the order of information slight to provide emphasis on the affect of the variable duty cycle and to show sync relationship to VIC out put.  Have include these three goals as part of that discussion.  Initial test of K8 using 50% duty cycle is still included will detailed analysis of circuit.  I just moved it down in document.

We are trying to satisfy these three goals.
1.   The digital pulses occurs in the positive part to the gate pulse
2.   The analog wave starts to rise at the leading edge to the positive part of the gate pulse
3.   The analog signal voltage offset rises when the duty cycle of gate pulse increases

The testing above shows when we use [M] into K3 and [M4] into K8 we satisfy all three goals.   Signals out of VIC are in the correct sync because the leading edge of [M4] is in sync with trailing edge of [M].  So when we use [M4] in K8 were are in effect syncing on the trailing edge of [M] as show on schematic.

This also means voltage out of K8 rise with duty cycle and duty changing pulse duty cycle length does not affect sync of the VIC pulse.

Earl

I received the LS7408 chips and installed one on K11 on board output.  M2 and M3 now work so version of chip does make a difference.

Earl

ok reading and working on gerbers here

Managed to complete these 2 Corrections

K3 and the Matrix gerbers updated and attached

PLease do cross check i got the correction all on them

I am working on k11 tps merge and some more audit of boms

re compiled the gerbers on 9th of june 2022 and reposted here
as back silk and holes missing

Dan

Dan

New K3 line goes to correct place but traces cross.   See picture and route that works.

VIC Matrix changes for M and M4 are correct.

Dan,

While you are merging K11 and the LED TPS card you may want to add a means of setting a minimum voltage on the LED TPS card.  As it currently works if the voltage drops be a certain level the K11 output pulse completely disappears.  You can keep this from happening already on the upper end by setting the upper limit using the pot on the LED TPS card. I did this in my testing.

While the Offset Pot will set a lower limit on K8 (idle setting) this only sets minimum voltage level of the K8 output however, there needs to minimum width pulse on the K8 input or no analog wave is generated,   This could be done using another pot on TPS input on LED card to set lower limit.  Note:  This does not apply to manual K8 input as that is always a square wave.

Note:  I am assuming the output the TPS can go to zero and we do not want this to turn cell off.

Earl

Hi OK Making Changes  Dan

BOM Updates Everything easy Just Takes Time !

 Gerber tps k11 merge done I post shortly

DD

Update for Power card BOM

Gas Feed Back Stan Meyer Version 1
Geber Last Changes Attached .

Earl Can you post BOM list for parts you have on Board testing there.
 
Dan

Gas Card Version 1 Bom ( draft)
need to check against current update changes  gerber

Working on it

Dan

I looked at BOM for Gas card and found a few things missing also noticed labels are missing on Gerber file good new is values on board are correct.  Values and missing items are in XLS file and label correction are in picture

I add 2 columns to your BOM  number is first column is part number reference for caps, trim resistors and IC value.

Second is comment of values I use when things did not match.

While I did not note it on BOM I just looked down on finished board and saw I used to different types of caps for C1 the one at top 0.01uF is 103 ceramic and one in lower middle C1 is a larger green electrolytic.  Most like should have different "C" numbers in BOM

Went back and updated BOM to reflect this called green cap C5 also made update to picture below so both attachments should now reflect this change.