The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017

Matt Watts

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #375, on November 19th, 2017, 08:28 AM »
Yes, good catch Tavote.  Three orders of magnitude takes the whole equation well out of bounds.

So what are looking at here in Newman's book?  Hopefully not B.S.


~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #377, on November 19th, 2017, 08:35 AM »Last edited on November 19th, 2017, 09:04 AM
Matt. How dose current effect the velocity factor? 

Its to my understanding that the smaller the current the slower it travels. So if this it true is not the current a major factor in this? 

~Russ

Edit. After looking can we calulate this for an inductor like this?  Seems link no.


Matt Watts

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #379, on November 19th, 2017, 10:01 AM »
Steinmetz is the man and his calculations are a very good starting point.  Thanks chuff for putting that back out on the table.

Matt Watts

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #380, on November 19th, 2017, 10:07 AM »Last edited on November 19th, 2017, 10:17 AM
Quote from ~Russ on November 19th, 2017, 08:32 AM
So what,  I need x100. 500lb of 38?
Three orders of magnitude.  Not 30 kilometers of wire, 30,000 kilometers of wire.  Not going to happen while I'm still alive.

I think we need to look at multiple pulses per half revolution.  The trick to doing this properly is figuring out whether we need a closed end or open end at the point of reflection.  I'd have to go back and look at the John Shive wave propagation video again--electrically and mechanically things are flipped.

If we do 1000 pulses per half revolution, then we're back in the ballpark again.  Otherwise it would appear Dr. Hastings is up in the night.  Propagation is just way too fast to overcome with lengths of wire.

And we still need to figure out if removing the negative inductance is necessary.  I tend to think so, especially when using higher voltages.  That big blob of wire becomes nothing more than one of Tesla's top loads which I really don't think we want.  It's a catch-22.  You want a relatively small air core where the magnetism concentrates, but to do that you put a lot of turns of wire in close proximity to each other; that becomes more of capacitor than it does an inductor.  The only saving grace is the rotor begins to act like a self-unsaturating (since it rotates) core.

This whole exercise digs at the heart of what exactly is inductance.  Wires lying next to each other with their gryoscopic particles scrubbing or binding against each other.  This must be the whole reason the length of wire rejects any change in current.  Changing the current creates friction at the gyroscopic particle level.  Friction is the compression of these particles which we see as resistance.  It's all interwoven and difficult to fully comprehend everything happening at once.

Tavote

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #381, on November 19th, 2017, 11:30 AM »
Quote
Three orders of magnitude.  Not 30 kilometers of wire, 30,000 kilometers of wire.  Not going to happen while I'm still alive.
Yea, even if you increase the speed to 60 Hz (3600 RPM) you would still need 2 500 000 meters (2 500 Km) of wire.

Thank you Matt for the way to calculate the Km of wire, it helped me alot :)


~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #383, on November 19th, 2017, 12:23 PM »
Somthing tells me. We are looking st this all wrong...

The math used to calulate propagation of current in a wire must include the coil. 

Most of what I see on this volicity factor is not the case.

We know that when we turn on a coil. The current dose not start to flow utill the voltage reaches the peek. (Or close to. It) 

With this in mined we need to look at what happens when we turn off the coil before it reaches max voltage.

One pulse duration.

From 0 to 1/4 of the input voltage.

We know for sure that we will get back EMF but the current dose not come from the source. It comes from the change in magnetic feild.

Add the magent moving past the coil and you get " 2 for 1 so to speak. "

Any hoo back to thinking I go....
~Russ

sonnet

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #384, on November 19th, 2017, 12:26 PM »Last edited on November 19th, 2017, 12:37 PM by ~Russ
Just throwing it out there.
Question
Would we not slow the current / propagation down if we had or put in resistance after the coil...????

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #385, on November 19th, 2017, 12:38 PM »
Quote from sonnet on November 19th, 2017, 12:26 PM
Just throwing it out there.
Question
Would we not slow the current / propagation down if we had or put in resistance after the coil...????
you need the copper... other types of resistances are not the same, also the interactions with the rest of the coil and such help the impedance.


if it were the same they would not have made delay lines like they do... ( did)

~Russ

PS. sorry i edited your post, thinking i hit quote... doh... but did not change any of your stuff.

sonnet

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #386, on November 19th, 2017, 01:13 PM »
Also guys, something I have heard no reference to but may be relevant.
Does the flux from the permanent magnet impede the current flow in the coil any;
that is to say as the magnetism grows in the coil will the current be impeded by the flux of the permanent magnet???
sorry if that's a silly question

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #387, on November 19th, 2017, 01:44 PM »
Quote from sonnet on November 19th, 2017, 01:13 PM
Also guys, something I have heard no reference to but may be relevant.
Does the flux from the permanent magnet impede the current flow in the coil any;
that is to say as the magnetism grows in the coil will the current be impeded by the flux of the permanent magnet???
sorry if that's a silly question
If you look how the emf from the magnet flows according to Newman... that answer should answer its self...

also i think ALL of us are thinking to hard... Newman gave us ALL the answers to make a simple device... now its about testing it. the way he states to make it... will start there. thinking like Newman, See what Newman saw, Then make it better.

This all makes me think i should make the simple replication that he gave to the patent office. there is enough information on that unit to build it to spec.
it was calmed to be 1/2 watt in, 10 watts out. that's enough to run its self if it acts the same as he saw it...

this makes life simple to build it.
the second options to do it as he showed in his " merry Christmas" motor... he also gives enough info there and it would be a better motor to test me thinks...

we need to master what Newman is trying to teach us. and if we have not this is all a waist of time, as most of theses answers are already answered...
~Russ

sonnet

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #388, on November 19th, 2017, 01:53 PM »
Quote
also i think ALL of us are thinking to hard
lol I know I am, thought you guys were just cruising...
but yer trying to work out an improvement motor has got to be harder than the original versions.

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #389, on November 19th, 2017, 04:43 PM »Last edited on November 19th, 2017, 04:47 PM
i was not thinking clearly, but the results wont change lol so make some scene of it...

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=OgvPWQBGMWk

Took about 2 seconds to "charge" this inductor, 13.8Khoms, Think its 38 or 40 AWG, spool of 1lb i think, 17.4 OZ.
also took that long to "discharge"

seems to act like a capacitor more than anything...

I have know idea what that first part it... This image is the short switch on time. the long "charge" time is up to 2 seconds for 12-13V
resistor is 1K. measuring there for current draw. i need to do theses over with better understanding... odd results.

~Russ

Magneton

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #390, on November 19th, 2017, 06:30 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on November 19th, 2017, 01:44 PM
This all makes me think i should make the simple replication that he gave to the patent office. there is enough information on that unit to build it to spec. it was calmed to be 1/2 watt in, 10 watts out. that's enough to run its self if it acts the same as he saw it... this makes life simple to build it.

the second options to do it as he showed in his " merry Christmas" motor... he also gives enough info there and it would be a better motor to test me thinks... we need to master what Newman is trying to teach us. and if we have not this is all a waist of time, as most of theses answers are already answered... ~Russ
I think you are right about starting with a simple replication...the only hesitation I have is with the commutator on the "Christmas gift" model. Do we know for sure what the commutator configuration was?

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #391, on November 19th, 2017, 06:50 PM »
Quote from Magneton on November 19th, 2017, 06:30 PM
I think you are right about starting with a simple replication...the only hesitation I have is with the commutator on the "Christmas gift" model. Do we know for sure what the commutator configuration was?
Right. However. We do know that after we build it. We can then make the commutator fit the motor.


Becuse we know what we are looking for.. 

So its a coin toss.

The idea is to prove the idea.

Newman did it with a monster motor build from somthing like 55miles of 5AWG...

It proved the point with out a dought.

However it did not make. Much torque.  So I'm all in for 55miles of 5AWG...

:)   

But his next 3 models were big cylinder coils with a magnet on the outside.

So that sounds doable.

Then the advanced models were window motors as we see... 

So in the end. I think what's the fastest way to the point.

Seems like the second option...

We need to voite. I'll set up a poll
~Russ


Cycle

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #393, on November 19th, 2017, 07:50 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on November 17th, 2017, 08:07 PM
Reducing skin effect is the whole purpose behind Litz wire.
Maximizing use of the skin effect is the whole purpose behind Litz wire. By maximizing the amount of 'skin', one maximizes the amount of current the wire can carry, as the inner bulk of the wire carries little current. This is why a hollow tube can carry approximately twice the current than a solid strand of the same size can carry... it has 'skin' on the inside of the tube as well as the outside.

One has to size the wire to the frequency used... the lower the frequency, the thicker the 'skin'. At RF frequencies, the 'skin' is very thin, so maximizing the amount of 'skin' is necessary to get a conductor to carry more current. Thus Litz wire.

Cycle

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #394, on November 19th, 2017, 08:00 PM »Last edited on November 19th, 2017, 08:05 PM by Cycle
Quote from ~Russ on November 19th, 2017, 04:43 PM
i was not thinking clearly, but the results wont change lol so make some scene of it...

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=OgvPWQBGMWk

Took about 2 seconds to "charge" this inductor, 13.8Khoms, Think its 38 or 40 AWG, spool of 1lb i think, 17.4 OZ.
also took that long to "discharge"

seems to act like a capacitor more than anything...

I have know idea what that first part it... This image is the short switch on time. the long "charge" time is up to 2 seconds for 12-13V
resistor is 1K. measuring there for current draw. i need to do theses over with better understanding... odd results.

~Russ
Can you stack two of those together to create an ad hoc 'bifilar'?

For coil ring down, use diodes (or a PNP/NPN transistor pair to get lower cutoff backflow than diodes can provide) to unidirectionally pump that ringing voltage out of the coil and into a cap.

Matt Watts

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #395, on November 19th, 2017, 08:17 PM »Last edited on November 19th, 2017, 08:29 PM
Okay retest for current, same secondary on my NST.  Resistance checked at 33.95k Ohms.

For this test I connected a 47k Ohm resistor in series with the coil acting as somewhat of a voltage divider so that we can see the voltage drop (which is actually now measuring current) across the coil during charge and resume at discharge.  At about a 3x time constant I get 20ms.



So it appears to me we must put a definite current across the coil in order to see the effect of inductance.  Voltage alone will shoot straight through.

So the question of have in regards to a motor build is what fraction of the time constant is best for one half revolution at normal running speed.  The smaller this fraction, the less current the motor draws.  Might be worth playing around with the calculator and get some ballpark numbers:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indtra.html#c1

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #396, on November 19th, 2017, 08:29 PM »
Matt. I feel your test with that NST will show results differ than an air core.

But none the less. I'm glad your looking. I have been looking all day on this stuff as well. 

Your current curve vs voltage seems to be the ezcatly oppiset of what I habe seen on line today.  Acordding to phase shift.  Where is yhe phase shift in that?  Seems to be throughing me off.

This video hits alot. Of good. Points...


https://youtu.be/i-2qKGpGQ4g

After watching that and seeing how "simple" it is. It gives me hope in the true statements... Once you find the answer... It will be so simple you won't believe it.

OnePower. Unfortunately I only have one of thses coils. I do have one with slightly bigger wire on it.

I'll have to look at that circuit. Seems good. I have a feeling that the transistors I'll be needing though are not going to handle the voltages of the big coil...

~Russ


Matt Watts

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #397, on November 19th, 2017, 08:46 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on November 19th, 2017, 08:29 PM
Matt. I feel your test with that NST will show results differ than an air core.
Yes, I'm sure it would.  I have a big spool of 30 AWG, but unfortunately I can't get to the inside end.  Have to use what I have and what I have shows me we can do this with nearly zero voltage drop which means there's practically no current flow.  The dipole will still be at each end of the coil, but the coil won't be killing it.
Quote from ~Russ on November 19th, 2017, 08:29 PM
Your current curve vs voltage seems to be the ezcatly oppiset of what I habe seen on line today.  Acordding to phase shift.  Where is yhe phase shift in that?  Seems to be throughing me off.
There's no appreciable phase shift Russ.  What you are seeing in my scope-shots is the raw output from the signal generator in yellow.  In purple is the voltage drop across the coil.  What I'm interested in is pure inductive behavior to get an idea of just what kind of a time constant will be needed to keep the coil from drawing too much current.  As you can see in the simple formula, keeping the inductance quite a bit larger than the resistance makes for a larger time constant.  We want our pulses to be a tiny fraction of this time constant.  By doing so, the current never climbs up.  So high resistance is still okay, just not so high it overpowers the inductance.  If you get that formula flipped over the time constant gets too short, then we start sucking down the dipole by drawing way too much current.  Go there and you end up with nothing more than a conventional motor.

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #398, on November 19th, 2017, 08:51 PM »
Matt, when you get a chance look at my video i posted. its a live recording. I do that test you talk about. short pulses... that's what my scope shot is of.
I get very big negative spikes ( current) when there is all most no noticeable input current... from what i can see that proves the point right there.

however, i would like to do this test with a better scope... i was a bit confused on that one due to not using that scope much lately....

~Russ

~Russ

Re: The Energy Machine of Joseph Newman 2017
« Reply #399, on November 19th, 2017, 08:56 PM »
by the way as i stated in my post, It took just under 2 seconds to " charge" that coil! its tinny! can you imagine what 20,000H coil will be like?

also, you can to the inverse. you can hold a field in there...  ( also a magnetic field) charge it first... and the pulse it... 

~Russ