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This appears to be the operating principle of Nelson Rocha's radiant box.  What you have is pure separation between voltage and current multiplied together to produce substantial power.  Is it any wonder why so many researchers have found interest in bifilar windings...

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Cool,  nice view point Matt.

Second that, thank you matt

Sounds good huh?

There are still some limitations though...

Only so much current is needed to align the atoms; any more than is necessary is a waste.

Similar is true for the voltage.  We only need enough pressure to push these gyroscopic particles into the third conductor; any more voltage than is necessary is a waste.

The common denominator is again the number of atoms we wish to align and push on.  More means more.  There are no shortcuts here that I can see.  Speed is still something that can be optimized, but only up to the limitations of our circuits.  The mass we work with is the defining limit to the amount of energy we can harvest from our conductors.

Really glad you are seeing this process, and it should be achievable to make that into a solid state system with the mindset that mass is key. but I still like the Kinetic energy store of the flywheel using this type of Atom Spin Power Unit...the ASPU lol.
So my thoughts are still to give Newman his time in history and reproduce the motor for others to see the concepts see how its done and go on to build better and better units.
I thought the day would be a long time off before Id hear you guys talking about limiting the current. looking forward to the future in a big big way.

Quote from sonnet on November 17th, 2017, 01:00 PM

I thought the day would be a long time off before Id hear you guys talking about limiting the current.

Having two options in this respect is pretty handy:  Straight Ohms Law or stopping the flow before the circuit is completed.  This later approach actually opens the door to what I may term "potential current" which is an ability to produce a significant flow of current that is then sent over a cliff prior to destroying the dipole.

All of this amp-turns talk has me wondering something though...

Did I ever notice in my years of experimenting that when a coil becomes warm due to current, it's at a point where no more magnetic alignment is possible?  This seems like it would be a rookie mistake.  How come I never noticed it before?  Surely there are others that just kept pouring the coal to it thinking the field strength would increase.  I can't be the only one.  There must be a video online somewhere of a motor running hot and the user inputting more current only to have the motor continue to run at the same speed or actually begin to slow down.

Plenty of rewind shops would be out of business if everyone saw it. Lol.
Once you see it...you see a lot more too...me and Russ touched on this...the advancements to come will be out of this world...literally.

Quote from Matt Watts on November 17th, 2017, 03:13 PM

Having two options in this respect is pretty handy:  Straight Ohms Law or stopping the flow before the circuit is completed.  This later approach actually opens the door to what I may term "potential current" which is an ability to produce a significant flow of current that is then sent over a cliff prior to destroying the dipole.

All of this amp-turns talk has me wondering something though...

Did I ever notice in my years of experimenting that when a coil becomes warm due to current, it's at a point where no more magnetic alignment is possible?  This seems like it would be a rookie mistake.  How come I never noticed it before?  Surely there are others that just kept pouring the coal to it thinking the field strength would increase.  I can't be the only one.  There must be a video online somewhere of a motor running hot and the user inputting more current only to have the motor continue to run at the same speed or actually begin to slow down.

Matt. I think the point is that if you can keep. It cooler. It will be alot More effishent.

Becuse as soon as you start hearting the wire you start more chaotic movement and less Alighnment.

So your fighting your self....  So yes the more you put in the more you get out to a point but its ALL waisted. In heat. 

Make sence?

So if you do it newmans way...  Well you see...  Its ALOT better for making power!!!
~Rus

Matt

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Did I ever notice in my years of experimenting that when a coil becomes warm due to current, it's at a point where no more magnetic alignment is possible?  This seems like it would be a rookie mistake.  How come I never noticed it before?  Surely there are others that just kept pouring the coal to it thinking the field strength would increase.  I can't be the only one.

Yes it is a rookie mistake... one I know very well.
When a coil or coil/core saturates you will see the voltage curve across the inductance flat line and the coil is now a resistor. I also like to use an analog hall effect sensor to take isolated magnetic field readings. When the field strength reading maxes out or stops changing then again we know the coil is now a resistor. In fact most of the mosfet/transistor and coil heating issues are a result of coil/core saturation causing increased current flow which is the last thing we want.

As a general rule when measuring the voltage across a coil, when the voltage is changing your measuring impedance and when the voltage isn't changing your measuring resistance.

Question.

If I take litz wire. Or if I take a solid wire of the same resistance. (Same amount of copper basicaly) 

If the turns are = and the resystance is =

Do I see an increse in magnetic feild stringth and inductance for the same current in the litz? 

Litz wire = 100more turns but the wire is in parallel?

Is there a diffrentce if each strand of the litz is its in series? 

Litz could be 100strand... 

~Russ

Reducing skin effect is the whole purpose behind Litz wire.  I'm starting to see why skin effect even exists now.  Pushing the gyroscopic particles out of the core of thick solid wire seems futile to me.  What is happening at the surface of the wire is where all the action is at.  These gyroscopic particles are easily accessible; it only makes sense to focus on them.

Sure we can still get results with thick solid copper wire, but my feeling is these gyroscopic particles are much harder to get to.  They have to migrate to the surface and it takes time for this to happen.  The power equation dictates time is something we don't want to take for granted.  The quick-win is to snag off the surface particles and Litz wire is the easiest way to do this.

With a big motor in comparison to some sort of solid state device, the motor rotates slower (lower frequency) and needs the field pushed out far enough to interact with the magnetic rotor.  This to me means higher voltages and lower pulse frequencies.  With a solid state device we want the collection coil in very close proximity to the emitting coil, lower voltages and much faster pulse rates.  Mechanically speaking, what you are trying to accomplish tells you what you need.

Deep thoughts there. But it did not answer my question.

:)   

~Russ

Also note the idea of gyro particles hitting the wire next to it is the main propose... To my understanding.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on November 17th, 2017, 07:40 PM

Do I see an increse in magnetic feild stringth and inductance for the same current in the litz?

Sorry, but it depends.  It depends on the pulse rate.  Fast = Litz.  Slow = Anything you got.

Remember too, the current you pick will sufficiently align the gyroscopic particles; any more is a waste; any less and some of the gyroscopic particles will not be aligned and will be useless when the voltage pushes them out.

If you only want the magnetic field pushed out 1mm, then surface area makes a huge difference.  If instead you plan to push out the magnetic field 50mm, Litz wire begins to be a waste of time, especially if the pulse frequency is slow.  You can instead just take more time and apply higher voltage to accomplish the same thing.  And since you would be using solid wire and pushing out the magnetic field 50mm, you can use much thicker/better insulation that will handle the high voltage.  This insulation will also lower the velocity factor giving you more time to cut the current off before it destroys the dipole.

Ok. I can see that.

Now think about it using newmans teachings directly.

Turns X atoms. = more...

So for the same amount of copper...  Dose litz make sence? 

And deffentaly if we are worried about the smaller amount of copper vrs our end goal...

200lb of #5 vrs 200lb of #30...

Big difference in resistance and turns and Inductance.

Rember. Frequncy. OR inductance.  You can pick what one you want to increes to get the same result...

For me...  Turns count... And I want to get above 150,000 turns... 

The question I can't answer is if parallel vrs series changes the game... 

Gose back to my question.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on November 17th, 2017, 08:27 PM

So for the same amount of copper...  Dose litz make sence?

Certainly not purchased Litz wire.

If you intend to have 12 spools of wire, wrapping all of them at once and tie the ends together, then yes, it makes sense to do this.  The main reason is you will improve the coil/copper density quite a bit.  It also gives you the ability to gauge the resistance you are shooting for by adding or removing a single strand or two.  Myself, I would place the large coil former on a turntable and feed all the strands in, winding from bottom to top.  You can rough calculate the volume just as we do with small coil bobbins.  Figure out how many spools you will actually need and start turning.  The only thing you'll have to be careful of is too many spools that aren't quite long enough.  That will make your resistance quite a bit too low and the overall inductance will be nowhere near what you're expecting.

I would also be careful about too much inductance for this simple reason...   The back EMF from such a huge coil can easily blow through the enamel insulation and wreck your massive coil.  This can happen before you're even aware of it.  It would be a shame to see a $10,000 copper boat anchor.

110% agreed Matt...  however it still leaves open the question. what is the difference as far as inductance if one dose parall vs series. of coarse it makes scene to do parall as it brings the resistance down to something we can work with with out going to extremely high voltages.

ill be using some where around 56 spools of 2.5lb each........ that's the minimum... 140lb... some where between 30-38AWG

I'd like to go to 200lb... per coil set... so 80 spools...

I need to calculate the turns first. according to my research most all Newmans motors were 150k turns min...

yes the BEMF and coil shorting is something i have thought about. i could make an OIL filled casing for the wire... this way i can reuse it if need be, and the oil would protect it from the high voltage...


if your wanting to calculate some stuff for fun... according to current thinking...  coil former will be between 28" - 48" long and 5" tall. The thickness will be calculated for the 200lb of wire... what i need to calculate is the turns...  bobbin will be rectangular of coarse.

something like the attached photo, But slightly smaller i think...

~Russ

i find it interesting that this motor is able to do what it dose. seems the smallest one of his type.


Yet later he build an even bigger one...  more mass the lower the input...

~Russ

copper is 0.324 LB per square inch.

we would need 45.36 square inches to get 140lb of copper.

3.78 cubic feet?  so he has around 1/2 that it would seem according to a rough guess.

~Russ

haven't had time to read it but...
http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance.html
I did read in Newman's book that his coil acts like a capacitor past 500 hz or something. 

point is:

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" You are operating the coil above its first self-resonant frequency. A coil with an electrical length in-between 90° and 180° (and odd multiples of this) will behave like a capacitor instead of an inductor. This is once more an indication that the first self-resonance of a coil is in fact a parallel resonance. Because of its capacitive behaviour, the coil's inductance will be stated as negative in this range."

though that was rel event to our massive coils...

they also think way outside the box on that page in a good way... worth a glance
~Russ

theses images still amaze me

Thank you for the welcoming :)

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110% agreed Matt...  however it still leaves open the question. what is the difference as far as inductance if one dose parall vs series. of coarse it makes scene to do parall as it brings the resistance down to something we can work with with out going to extremely high voltages.

Me too, i would go parallel just like you but, is too much parallel winding a good thing ?
Because while it lowers the Resistance, going 50 parallel would make it lets say 200 Henries coil and going 100 parallel would make it lets say 20 Henries coil.
The Inductance is going down as well.

From Page 422

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"Various models containup to 55 miles of wire, with air coil inductances of up to 20,000 Henries"

From his Website

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The back current is real and comprises considerable energy. Dr. Hastings testified that if one "touched the motor windings with just one hand," although wearing insulated shoes, as he had, one would "suddenly believe in the back current." (Dr. Hastings testified that he "did it (touch the windings) accidently" and he "had a sore arm for about a week."

Above is from his (this) page

So the question is, should we take this as a reference ( give or take the 20,000 Henries) ?
or what would happen if we lower the Inductance to lets say 20 Henries or less, will the motor be still functioning ?

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Reducing skin effect is the whole purpose behind Litz wire.  I'm starting to see why skin effect even exists now.  Pushing the gyroscopic particles out of the core of thick solid wire seems futile to me.  What is happening at the surface of the wire is where all the action is at.  These gyroscopic particles are easily accessible; it only makes sense to focus on them.

Sure we can still get results with thick solid copper wire, but my feeling is these gyroscopic particles are much harder to get to.  They have to migrate to the surface and it takes time for this to happen.  The power equation dictates time is something we don't want to take for granted.  The quick-win is to snag off the surface particles and Litz wire is the easiest way to do this.

I would agree on your thinking matt,
The inner copper particles bump into matter on the way out of the copper and are also drawn to and by the positively charged atoms from which the electrons have already left the copper which are nearer to to surface. So they have a greater chance of not leaving the copper but moving out to the surface area from which the pressurized particles have left. In other words..

The inner particles (electrons) from the outer valence rings which were from the centre of the wire end up at the skin of the copper creating a protective barrier to stop stray air based electrons from entering the copper in their attempt to create a equilibrium of the copper atom shells. because the valence rings are then full this creates the barrier (the skin effect) and the centre of your copper wire, these atoms are divide of electrons from the outer valence ring this now has positively charged atoms because the centre of the copper wire has lost its free electrons.

So litz wire is perfect Russ as we get maximum out of particles for any given mass.

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" You are operating the coil above its first self-resonant frequency. A coil with an electrical length in-between 90° and 180° (and odd multiples of this) will behave like a capacitor instead of an inductor. This is once more an indication that the first self-resonance of a coil is in fact a parallel resonance. Because of its capacitive behaviour, the coil's inductance will be stated as negative in this range."

This is because at the frequency we want the current gets a shunt effect across the coil turns. Is it not?

Quote from ~Russ on November 17th, 2017, 10:05 PM

copper is 0.324 LB per square inch.

we would need 45.36 square inches to get 140lb of copper.

3.78 cubic feet?  so he has around 1/2 that it would seem according to a rough guess.

~Russ

A cubic foot of copper would weigh 559 lb.

Quote from Magneton on November 18th, 2017, 05:52 AM

A cubic foot of copper would weigh 559 lb.

so 140 lbs = 0.25 cubic feet