but the gap between wires and the insulation would make the coils actually quite a bit bigger

Quote from Magneton on November 18th, 2017, 06:00 AM

but the gap between wires and the insulation would make the coils actually quite a bit bigger

Yeah agreed.

So my math was wrong.
So it would be possible to pack 140lb in that small motor you saw there (the blue one you think?) 

From the patent office motor that thing was basicaly 1 square foot wrapped all in one way. 

So making a window motor type seems. It would be alot bigger.

~Russ

One last note on litz wire,
Yes it will lower our Inductance, but you got to note that the frequency that we will be achieving will take away from the inductance anyway.

What I need to say to you here is
Question?
What is the purpose of the shorted coil? In fact the are two reasons?? please tell me so I know you understand what Newman wants you to understand.

If you can answer that you should see the Inductance as a problem not a benefit.

Question?
What does a Inductor do when you have frequency?

DONT READ ANY FURTHER till you answer questions above in your own minds








Newman wanted to use the coil to store a magnetic field for a preset length of time, no more no less. This time can be worked out from the segments of the commutator like magneton showed us.
At the end of this time scale he wanted the voltage to have dropped to a level so that on its exit from the short it was within 10% of the voltage of the input.
So your coil design should not be built to hold the magnetic field any longer than the time scale of the short segment. and to have no stored energy greater than the input voltage after the segment time in the V_L across the coil by the end of the time scale.
Can we not do the maths (matt) to arrive at these data points [1] using & X_c & Henries.
Take a pre-determined length of test wire to gain measurements of resistance,
Agree on a input voltage in line with Newman's methods
Then do the maths
[1] dt=segment degrees
V_L=agreed input voltage.
Or am I stating the obvious or my ignorance

Solid copper (140 lbs) would be 6 inches by 6 inches by 12 inches
His 12 inch (approx) cube motor had a 4 inch hollow center which sounds about right
The window motor style has a bigger opening in the coil (hence more inductance)
It would not really be that much bigger as far as the coils go but...
he went from a 14 pound magnet assembly to a 120 pound magnet assembly.

BTW (I am of the opinion that it requires the rotating magnet to work)
coils alone will not do the trick IMO

Just thought we could work out the amount of wire, that way by using the maths?

Quote from sonnet on November 18th, 2017, 08:03 AM

Just thought we could work out the amount of wire, that way by using the maths?

my post was not in response to yours but to an earlier post made by Russ
your math is prolly good, but I didn't check it

also I have commutator questions: see diagram from Newmans book, pg 292

IMO this is not a "done deal" as there are still items that are not resolved.

That design is old, it was used as a spark distributor but he solved this with the capacitor placed parallel to the coil,
you add as many capacitors as needed to lower the spart on the commutator so the spark almost deseaper.
This is done on page 462 and 464.

YouTube Newman Commutator starts at 1:22

Latest Newman Commutator

Quote

also I have commutator questions: see diagram from Newmans book, pg 292

IMO this is not a "done deal" as there are still items that are not resolved.

The page refers to a enhancement to his design, There are multiple spark gaps on that commutator I will try to see if I can explain his method but are at a loss at the moment to explain with clarity, he is cutting down on the destructive nature of a single spark and spreading the power over multiple contacts. He wants to get the voltage even higher than before to better the field strength but found the single commutator suffered from high wear on the contactor..
Hope this relates to what you were asking as the question was a little ambiguous. i.e. done deal??   not resolved??
 

I haven't the time at the moment to respond to everyone but yes. The commutator has advanced with the caps added. 

However there is still a benifiet in pulsing the coil.

Also on the immage I posted with "the plans" if one did it right,  one would transfer the BEMF voltage spike to the next coil through the cap. 

I posted alot of thoughts on this eriler in the thred.

I'm. With you sonnet. 

And magneton,  6x6x12 solid. 

So one would say 3x3" 24" to make a coil

My question is still.

Is there 200lb of wire on each coil. Or 1/2 on each coil
I think its 200 lb per coil. So 4 coils is 800lb of wire... 

Will need to calulate the Turns

~Russ

Ah. Also his crude brush system most deffentaly creates alot of noise. If the contact is week we would see alot of pulses.....

Just a thought.

I showed this with the reed switch ams cap. To cap.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on November 18th, 2017, 10:26 AM

My question is still.

Is there 200lb of wire on each coil. Or 1/2 on each coil
I think its 200 lb per coil. So 4 coils is 800lb of wire... 

Will need to calulate the Turns

~Russ

my opinion is the first two coils are around 70 pounds each
the two optional coils go around the first two and thereby are a lot bigger, more wire and hence more weight
but I have no way to prove that. They cannot all weigh the same, unless you vary considerably, the number of turns per coil

Quote

My may question is still.

Is there 200lb of wire on each coil. Or 1/2 on each coil
I think its 200 lb per coil. So 4 coils is 800lb of wire...

I tried to answer that by saying make a coil to our specs, but using the formula from Newman..One you know the time duration of short segment (from original commutator) and have a exit voltage from the coil in V_L then you can build your own size coils using electronic calculations.
Newmans coil sizes could differ because he used the variables that could not change, i.e. the rotation angle (degrees) and the voltage must not kill the batteries on the return from the short. He could and did put a load in series after the short to make use of this power as it returned to the battery...so he could afford to have a slightly higher voltage returning which he ran through lights etc.

Quote from sonnet on November 18th, 2017, 10:17 AM

Hope this relates to what you were asking as the question was a little ambiguous. i.e. done deal??   not resolved??

the questions I had were typed into the drawing (expand the image)

Yes Sonnet.  I agree. There is some. Math to do.

I haven't had time to do it....

Still studding to make sure I see clearly..

~Russ

Quote

the questions I had were typed into the drawing (expand the image)

lol...I can answer them...like russ I need a little time right now....will explain soon.

Latest Newman Commutator

148 RPM... 2.46 RPS   62% off  38% on divided into two parts

1 rev in  0.4 seconds 
powered for 0.077 seconds, off for 0.126 seconds
on again for 0.077 and then off for 0.126  seconds

but he clearly states in one of his videos that he has made three
improvements to get this level of performance and that he has not disclosed them

clearly the size of his coils and the huge inductance value is dictating the timing

Quote from Magneton on November 18th, 2017, 10:59 AM

Latest Newman Commutator

148 RPM... 2.46 RPS   62% off  38% on divided into two parts

1 rev in  0.4 seconds 
powered for 0.077 seconds, off for 0.126 seconds
on again for 0.077 and then off for 0.126  seconds

but he clearly states in one of his videos that he has made three
improvements to get this level of performance and that he has not disclosed them

clearly the size of his coils and the huge inductance value is dictating the timing

some questions are:
is he still reversing battery polarity every half revolution?
the caps eat the spark but is he still shorting the coil?
(seems to me like the best way to get a good pulse)
if you don't short the coil(s) how do you get a significant pulse?

7500 pound motor running on 750V batteries input voltage
estimate 1500 pounds for shaft and bearings and mechanical stuff
that leaves about 3000 pounds for magnets and 3000 pounds for wire
these are rough estimates and may bear no reality to his actual motor
i am just trying to think about reasonable possibilities

if he used #30 AWG wire 3000 pounds of wire would be around 10 million feet
if it was one wire then the battery current would be 3/4 of a milliamp
if he used #38 AWG wire 3000 pounds of wire would be around 65 million feet
if it was one wire then the battery current would be about 0.02 miliamps

We have to remember Newman was a man who did not think small

Yes polarity changes.

I'm not for sure but shorting the coil has major binifight of holding the magnetic feild so the rotor turns the rest of the cycle.

Alas  don't forget that shorting the coil across the cap gives a little of both worlds.  Charge the cap and use it for the next cycle and also slow the magnetic feild collaps down.

~Russ

Quote

but he clearly states in one of his videos that he has made three
improvements to get this level of performance and that he has not disclosed them

Found it
Starts at 4:35

Newman Speed is Power

good job

Quote from ~Russ on November 18th, 2017, 12:00 PM

Yes polarity changes.

I'm not for sure but shorting the coil has major binifight of holding the magnetic feild so the rotor turns the rest of the cycle.

Alas  don't forget that shorting the coil across the cap gives a little of both worlds.  Charge the cap and use it for the next cycle and also slow the magnetic feild collaps down.

~Russ

wouldn't it also slow the motion down

Quote

but he clearly states in one of his videos that he has made three
improvements to get this level of performance and that he has not disclosed them

Ok his 3 improvements

Page 299 he states he has a new motor,
1) stating that he has put a generator on the shaft...because he states
he use a inductor with the power coming from his permanent magnets. This eliminates the batteries other than to start the motor
2) He improves the commutator with multiple copies of the commutator so that he can increase the voltage to the short.
3) He's add the capacitors
Its all about the time frames and by the time he releases his last book you realise all this. he tells you

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