i didn't measure any currents

Ok, I deduce that although not ideal parameters we are showing what we expect. A ringing (oscillation I called that). What we are heading for is a lot of ringing and not a large negative spike as the short is removed.
can you achieve that

Magneton unfortunately you are beating a dead horse. Meaning that there is 100+ years
of people shorting dc current through a coil.  To follow Newmans work
your going to have to use a higher voltage dc with a higher resistance than 78ohms. 
Secondly the goal is to spin a heavy magnet inside or on the side of the pulsed coil.

 

you want the time cutting off the battery supply till when the shorted coil starts to be the shortest possible time you can achieve.

Chuff even though we are making paper airplanes we still might see how the plane floats...
Magneton is not thinking of boarding for his holidays yet.

Quote from chuff1 on November 14th, 2017, 04:48 PM

Magneton unfortunately you are beating a dead horse.

I am starting out with a small pony (but he is not dead) and my current goal is understanding
right now all I have is 9 pounds of wire... so I am learning what i can from that

If your happy to do it, I would like to see the results magneton....I have no scopes

There may be a more efficient way of achieving the circuit.  If you wired a transistor to short the coil
out when the field collapses you should be able to get rid of the rotary commutator.  Anyone want to
join the chat to get instant feedback?

Quote from sonnet on November 14th, 2017, 04:58 PM

If your happy to do it, I would like to see the results magneton....I have no scopes

why do we want lots of ringing?

Quote

why do we want lots of ringing?

yes magneton
We want a straight constant voltage, quick spike then going into a ringing that dissipates out slowly then depending on remaining voltage a short small spike then eventually back to the constant voltage.
Off for ZZZ's have fun.

like this?

Quote from sonnet on November 14th, 2017, 02:43 PM

How to loop the outer short....need a commutator like Newmans EDITED to read outer short

I can do this without issue using solid state components.  Not a problem.

Quote from sonnet on November 14th, 2017, 02:43 PM

As you do step 3 you will induce a BEMF and spring your electrons back into outer coaxial cable.

Your brain's working matt I like it, but solve the above problems.
I think you are getting the Newman way of interactions though...from the way you tried to deduce that one.

Russ is telling me this is easy-peasy, so as far as I can tell, there are no problems left to solve.

I have two goals in mind unlike the basic Newman motor:

1.  Compact and portable using only the bare minimum of conductive material needed.

2.  Bypass the motor concept and harness the excess electrical energy directly.


If Newman's concept is correct, there is an optimal mechanical/physical arrangement in which maximum energy can be harnessed in the minimal amount of time, i.e. power.  My personal feeling is Nelson Rocha has achieved this with his pancake coil radiant box.  This is my goal by application of Newman's concepts.  The solution should be able to scale up as well as scale out.

What I'm convinced of so far is that Joseph Newman at the time of his development wasn't experienced with high speed, high voltage semi-conductors.  His solution was purely mechanical in nature because that was his comfort zone.  I think we can do better, much better.  All we need is a simple experiment that demonstrates the proper alignment, the proper input and the proper timing.  Get that under our belt and the rest is history.

So the visual people that see how these gyroscopic particles line up and push out of the conductors need to get a sheet of paper, a pencil and draw out the best way to snag these things up so we can put them to work.  Don't like my coax idea?  Fine.  I'm open to any and all suggestions that have real geometry figured out to back up their sketches.

Matt just out of curiosity. Did yoi sketch it up visually on paper? 

I'd have to do that to get a good visual on this.

Becuse I agree we should be able to get it to work with solid state. But playing in the feild of small amounts of mass is going to be really hard.

Its proportional to the mass.

So smaller it is. Harder it is to over come your losses.

You got 40lb of copper on that coax you might be ok.

However if you can turn it on and off before the current gets through the loop your golden. This is one key you can't over look. At lest not for now.  On this scale.

~Russ

Also the motor consept might be the best for most applications.

A prime mover that can move its self will give you both of best worlds

But I cellphone sized unit solid state might jist work.

However. We all need to cralw before we can walk.

~Russ

Quote

like this?

Yes nice, if you have got the concept of the circuit and I believe you have and I think I understand a scope lol, that ringing means no current is being used from battery from how you described your set up.
What we now want to understand is the magnetic strength of the coil jurying the ringing time frame.
also shorten the first spike time scale i.e. get the cut off of the current switched to the shorted coil faster....should increase length of time of ringing.
good work magneton... thank you.

@matt
i'm off to work, but I wanted to answer some of the problems you might have with the philosophy of how to use this concept. will post later's
regards.

@matt

Quote

Russ is telling me this is easy-peasy, so as far as I can tell, there are no problems left to solve.

If your following Newman's way...it's all done and Dusted and that's why we need to go that way

another picture of the ringing (same coil, same conditions)

I figured out the timing of the commutator of the motor pictured on page 36 of Newman's book.
His commutator is exactly 4" in diameter and is divided into 20 sections of three parts each. At 136
RPM and with the contact strip widths he states on pg 60 of his book. Power is applied to the coil
for 11 milliseconds. The coil is left open for 6.6 milliseconds and then the coil is shorted for 4.4
milliseconds. After 10 of these cycles the polarity of the battery applied to the coil is reversed
for the next 10 cycles.

Quote from Magneton on November 15th, 2017, 10:22 AM

I figured out the timing of the commutator of the motor pictured on page 36 of Newman's book.
His commutator is exactly 4" in diameter and is divided into 20 sections of three parts each. At 136
RPM and with the contact strip widths he states on pg 60 of his book. Power is applied to the coil
for 11 milliseconds. The coil is left open for 6.6 milliseconds and then the coil is shorted for 4.4
milliseconds. After 10 of these cycles the polarity of the battery applied to the coil is reversed
for the next 10 cycles.

Fine math work there sir. on that model that is the way it is.

however.

a note to all,
in his final work it appears that he may have removed the short,

reason?
He replaced it with the capacitors across the coils.

Note, add more capacitance till there is no more or linimented arcing. Newman used "pole pig" types 25,000v 100,000v spike worthy... ( 40 lb each) (he also made his own using paper and AL foil... 400 foot long, 2 foot wide sheets. )

This was a huge advantage, because it allowed him to directly collect that high voltage. This removes the arcing as well.

(book) Pages 460-464 as well in the photographed book pdf, combined with THIS will get us where we want to go.

200lb of wire... (in each 1/2 coil... 400lb of wire for one set...)
its kinda odd he went with paralleling the 30 or 38 AWG wire in 56 = lengths. I come up with resistances in the 300-500 ohm range depending on the wire used.  also those 2 are in parallel? so 1/2 that resistance150-250 ohms per coil set. still quite high concerting theses are 200lb of wire... 

Matt might be able to calculate the propagation speed with his knowledge... 

in one thinking... but could be wrong... more research is needed.
<sup>one should note that the commutator "shorts" out the next coil... so there is always a connection made on to the coils. its passing that current back and forth with in the commutator.
 
at a glance there is no "off" cycle but more less the Bemf is charging positively the next coil...( in the same direction)  its a directly passing of the current and high voltage to my eyes ( at the moment )

another reasion i beleave this is due to the fact that he states to add one cap on the commutator ( cross the power supply) if using more than 2 coils</sup>

use up to 4 or even 6 coils... that's 400lb to 1200lb of wire! wow!

he states, "the more wires put in parall the less voltage is needed... but wires must be VERY long" 

this is due to more turns i guess... that's an interesting thought. same lb of wire but more turns... i think i covered that in my last video... 

now on (book) page 292. he talks about alot of make and breaks. he states there is a mathematical way to fining the number. as well as a mechanical way. ( again Matt can calculate this I'm sure. propagation speed... vs the ringing of the coil? )

its strange to see he only used many sets to help the arc from jumping. but later i think shorting the coils to the next one is what he may have done.

i do believe that there is more advancements of this for sure. however i dont want to change anything until we see it working.
 ( i need that 10,000 check to make more advancements hehehehe)

I like the idea of shorting the coil on to the next one. but the make and break might be needed depending on the coil type, speed Ect.

none the less, we have a place to start... the coil can be build, the shaft can be build ( 130lb of magnets and iron)
the coils can be built, and the main unit can be made. then an external commutator can be made like the ones in the photo below.

In the end the meter pegging once per 12 cycle shows us something, but in other units he has alto of pulses per 1/2 cycle. so there may be 2 ways to go about it. all depending on  the set up .

 ~Russ

yeah after further review i;m thinking he is shorting the coil to the cap and to the next coil.now i need to map this out better to see it... due to the meter pulsing. and if you want more voltage in to the cap then pulse it at more cycles per rev and you will have more ... so it works both ways just fine...
~Russ

watch him fire this up, lesion to the sounds, watch the meter.

https://youtu.be/Iz2nMJ8iHGQ?t=365

Quote

The next segment the Loop, is entered. The brush is wider or as wide as the blank, so the spark has jumped and started a frequency in the coil / capacitor loop this would also create a capacitive circuit.

Think you see it same as me russ the commutator brush is as wide as the blank so the next coil is energised from the previous.
you wrote

Quote

in one thinking... but could be wrong... more research is needed.
one should note that the commutator "shorts" out the next coil... so there is always a connection made on to the coils. its passing that current back and forth within the commutator.

He makes a point of stating it like the timing of a car...

I think the next best thing is to build the coil and rotor and test it first. then decide the commutator that works best.

i have a big box of brushes to use...

~Russ

God I weep when I see the end of that video,
But yep that 4cyl (coil) block runs like a engine...the cc is the number of turns of the coil. The commutator is the distributor and camshaft in one unit
and that baby purrrs.
Just like an engine the intake and exhaust valves are open and overlap and when on the compression stroke the coil is ringing..
 

@ matt

Quote

If Newman's concept is correct, there is an optimal mechanical/physical arrangement in which maximum energy can be harnessed in the minimal amount of time, i.e. power.  My personal feeling is Nelson Rocha has achieved this with his pancake coil radiant box.  This is my goal by application of Newman's concepts.  The solution should be able to scale up as well as scale out.

Yer you bang on, and I think you can do this solid state matt...Nelson I've had on my YT subscribed list for a while now...but I have yet to see a load on that motor. He's doing some brilliant work from what I've watched but I think he needs the power from the sheer numbers of atoms. we squeeze those electrons from the atoms like a sponge coming out of a pale of water but we can only get so much power per squeeze, so if we make our sponge bigger and bigger we can fill another bucket faster. You still have to get that ratio. So for me matt mass is important.

Quote

So the visual people that see how these gyroscopic particles line up and push out of the conductors need to get a sheet of paper, a pencil and draw out the best way to snag these things up so we can put them to work.

lol, much work has been done on looking at the magnetic fields Howard Johnson showed much more than Newman does. So the field can be seen as quadrants but this doesn't interfere with the pull push relationship of the mesh. Lets say someone shows you a dynamic map of the field with spins interacting  then Id doubt you could use what they give you with accuracy because I will make you see. we don't know where the electron is only a probability of position...so use the spin relationship that Newman gives as a good guide to gear mesh only.