Is that your coil Matt?  You been building that or is that  parts from other projects? 
Any dimensions or coils paramitors? 

Looks good.  But havin the coil half out of the coil might through some other things off. 

What's the signal look like with the position of the coil?

...

~Russ

That's the motor our buddy Er wants, based on the motors he has already built.  He has identified it to be "as close to perfect" possible.  The only exception is to center the coil on the axis like most window motors.  He suggested if one wanted to push really high voltages, build a bucket for the rotor and submerge the windings in oil.

Yeah the coil needs to encapsulate the magnet from my research. 

Funny.  Richard and I are building a 200lb version... (Christmas motor) 

Going to take a bit of time to construct but will get there...  Wire is in th shop (thanks to richard)

~Russ

So one needs to think about the resistance of the battery. 

From testing my 9v carbon zinc batterys are about 91ohms...

So with 1 9v across the coil.  Its as if its shorted... 

Its a somthing one must think about. 

Even with 600v of 9v across the coil...  Its 5460 ohms across the 45,000 ohm coil...

This resistance is an important factor in my mined.

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on March 11th, 2018, 11:25 PM

Funny.  Richard and I are building a 200lb version... (Christmas motor)

Why?

You need something that can accept about one amp at 1500 volts.  That will put you in a range where you can actually deal with it.  What do I mean by that...?

If the flyback is way in excess of the input voltage, you've pretty much screwed the pooch.  I'm mean seriously, your new coil outputs around 30,000 volts at 2 RPM, how would you ever create a battery pack with that kind of voltage?  And even if you did, the windings are toast.  You're only hope is to charge a very small capacitor to that kind of voltage, then try to pop it into the coil via a spark gap.  Not even sure that will work.  Hopefully it would give a big enough kick to push the rotor around to the next cycle.

The thing to remember is the magnet moving by the coil is actually causing a discharge of magnetism from the magnet to the coil.  You want that energy.  You will add it to the energy you already have in the battery and push it back into the coil.  You want consumption.  This consumption will increase RPMs which builds horsepower.  You take that off the shaft and do whatever you want with it.

"Why"

The coil is configured differently in the other one. 

Its not one long strand.  Its supost to be 56 parall strands. 

Its a slightly diffrent animal....

~Russ

"induced in the same direction as the applied"


first off, let me say that this project is now a "secondary" project. what do i mean by that? well i have to pay the bills and that requires other tasks to get done first. I'm just posting this thought so you can see why i haven't gotten to much done lately as well as posting on the forums.

so what I'm saying is that I'm doing my best, but forgive me for the lack of posting and communication here. it might be like this in the future, however i will never stop. and ill do what i can as we all here are doing something bigger than our self's, and the outcome is greater than our self's. so... for me its one day at a time. for as long as i have another day....

Please note that the below is my thoughts currently on what i saw in only a few tests. I need a lot more testing to answer some of theses questions, that will come in the near future. so take my thoughts "with a grain of salt" everything in this post is subject to change..
 
ok, so... here is some of my thoughts after testing the 2" magnet inside the coil. ( for 5 min of testing...)

If you leave the coil open, you can make voltages that are off the charts. just spinning it by hand, ( my guess is 30,000V or more with less than 1000 RPM.)

Its not necessarily the voltage that interests me. But rather the good flux coupling with the magnet. This is why i did it. but ill take the voltage ;)

so with that said. let us look at the induction. I asked a question a while back, it was to see what happens when the induction current is greater than the applied. And dose the magnetic field flip in the coil when this happens. ( as current is now going in the wrong direction. )
This will give us more clues to that answer. but its also a different question now.

It is, is there any torque on the shaft when the magnet is inducing and "adding" to the current from the battery? or do they cancel out?

so let me explain what i saw. with the coil shorted. and the magnet "spinning" ( more like doing nothing because i cant hardly spin it at all due to it acting like a solid chunk of copper) the magnet can be spin but had huge resistance ( i need to measure the current in the coil still)  it felt like it was almost locked.

so it acts like i thought it would. However I thought it would act like a magnet in a solid pipe, as in the magnet facing parall with the coil and doped down the tube. However that's not the case.  it only has resistance when the N/S are 90 degrees from the coil. ( or anywhere not parall with the coil, but strongest at 90 degrees)

so what that said, spinning it with any responsible RPM is impossible with any low resistance on the coil. The 9V battery's i have have a resistance of about ~91 ohms. 

so with 11 battery's  Its about ~1K ohms of resistance. so... even tho the magnet wants to spin, it will spin only as fast as the resistance on the coil will let it... ( calculation could be done here differently but I'm using the resistance as a guide to the limiting RPM via how many battery i have across the coil)

is this making sense ?

Basically the battery is the load here... even tho the battery is also the source of input...

So with 11 battery's, (110V) the current across the 45Kohm coil is about 2.5ma From calculation ( once reached the charged steady state, with no induction)

so with 60 battery's ( 575V) we should see about 12.7ma of current once reached the steady state. And according to the scope shot after the coil is allowed to charge its right at that value. so all numbers match.

with that said, there are reasons why we want high voltage, because it has a greater battery resistance. allowing the rotor to spin faster. in newsman teaching... more voltage the better... only need just enough current to align the partials...

now something to note, the more voltage you apply the the more torque you generate. current... ha...?!?!

all common sense right? nothing new here?

now lets get to the interesting part,

the magnet is trying to go forward but its limited to the RPM that the resistance will let it go. ( battery as a load here)

Induction in the same direction as the applied. it seems it cant "out run" its self at this RPM, (In my case I was just applying power by hand and seeing what happens. )

so the rotor spins, and it will stop when the magnetic fields are aligned.

here's the kicker, as its aligning ( spinning) its inducing a current in the coil, so this current is almost completely canceling the applied current from the battery. 

however the magnet still tries to align its self to the coils field.

as this is happening, the input power is almost nothing. let us say .5ma of current, the rest is generated by the magnet its self.

however because the magnet cant go faster than the applied current ( as a steady pace) it instead is regulated... ( by the resistance in this case closing the circuit on the battery and creating resistance.)

so so that's great... now what.

wells let us ask a question.  If the current from the battery is almost "nall'd" by the magnets induction current. Is there any torque on the shaft?  if so how much? and dose it equate to the current consumed by the battery? or is the torque more powerful then the consumption?

so think about it. There is almost no current coming from the battery, instead its from the magnet.  So there for if we try slow down the magnet ( load the shaft)  we should need more current from the battery right?

well yes, however it all depends on how much we are inducing... If we are inducing 100ma of current, and we are applying a maximum of 12.7ma... Then it will take about 87.3ma worth of "torque" on the output shaft to show any increase in current draw from the battery...  ???

now lets look at my quick results. I need better ways to measure this stuff but for now it " feels" like this is true (literally, i can feel it  trying to hold the magnet back and watching the current i can feel the torque, and more voltage = I cant hold it back and the belt will jump teeth. however the resistance goes up. and the induced current changes. There is a balance ( tuning) here between the induced, the resistance of the battery, the induced from the magnet, ect )

so as the magnet is trying to speed up, I'm trying to hold it back, when this happens it oscillates in my scope shot. that and its doing that a little bit on its own. its hard with only 2 poles.

However the real question is ... is there torque? well from that quick test YES, and it feels like a lot more than the current I'm reading on the scope. however I'm comparing this to the torque i was getting on the magnet when it was outside the coil. so its hard to tell what real power it is making.

Voltage is indeed pure catalyst in this configuration...  and only enough current is needed to get alignment... the induction seems to take care of the rest. Or so it seems... more to do...

on a side note, This catalyst is why you can just " loop it". Although in this testing we are still consuming a tiny bit from the battery's.   I cant switch it in sync to cut it off before it makes it it past the induction state of rotation.

You can see it start the normal "charge curve" after this induction state.



Piero, can you try your best using your good math skills and your knowing of maxwell's equations / other to explain how its possible to generate great torque with almost no current, but rather Just voltage. using the induction current in your calculation i guess? I'm guessing to do this you will need more info on things, so if so, ask what measurements to take.
also please see the attachments as they might help in your understanding of what Hastings did. see here: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48353#msg48353

Things i will do soon,

1. measure the current across a resister = to the battery resistance to check the induction current / voltage.
2. Attempt to get real torque measurements to confirm the thoughts in this post. micro pony break?
3. Run this as a motor / generator. (although it seems unless i have way to get Past TDC on its own inertia I'm not going to be able to keep it running like this. ( need 2 magnets / coils at 90 degrees from each other. ) or i might try adding a fly wheel.

lets remember this quote:

"If the torque and induction constants are equal,the motor is nearly one hundred percent
efficient. If the torque constant exceeds the induction constant, the efficiency* exceeds
100%.
[*Note: the PRODUCTION efficiency can exceed 100%; the CONVERSION efficiency
cannot exceed 100%]"

hmmm cool stuff, glad to see your getting some promising results

Quote from Matt Watts on March 11th, 2018, 11:46 PM

If the flyback is way in excess of the input voltage, you've pretty much screwed the pooch.  I'm mean seriously, your new coil outputs around 30,000 volts at 2 RPM, how would you ever create a battery pack with that kind of voltage?  And even if you did, the windings are toast.

That's why I was discussing a "toroidal bifilar" type of coil... take a thicker wire (Litz wire or graphene coated) and wrap it with a thinner wire, then take all that and wrap it into a coil.

Inject your voltage to build your magnetic field via the thinner wire, and extract your voltage via your thicker wire.

That way, you build a strong magnetic field in the coil, and you've got a means of stepping the induced voltage down and quickly shunting it out of the coil.

Quote from ~Russ on March 12th, 2018, 02:30 PM

first off, let me say that this project is now a "secondary" project. what do i mean by that? well i have to pay the bills and that requires other tasks to get done first.

Russ, do you have a BitCoin account?

Matt

Quote

Guys, the torque this geometry has...   You could have frozen grease in the bearings and she'd still run like a deer.  A couple thousand volts input and it will twist your arm off if it doesn't throw the magnets completely off the shaft.

I have also built very powerful motors however torque is not efficiency and when your looking for that elusive 1% extra efficiency everything matters. It follows the notion, any first year mechanic can double the horsepower of your engine now ask the same mechanic to double the mileage and you will see just how smart he is. Efficiency is much more complex than power output in my opinion which is why everyone has so much trouble with it.

Russ
You can stick a square magnet on the end of the shaft so the poles are perpendicular to the axis of rotation. Now mount a hall effect sensor or a coil near it and you should see a uniform sine wave on rotation. This also indicates the RPM. Any non-uniformity in the slope of the sine wave is an indication of a non-linear acceleration thus force at that instance in the rotation. Now you plot the acceleration (rate of change of sensor voltage)versus the input/output power(volts x amps) and you should be able to map exactly where max efficiency occurs within each rotation.

Now you have some data -- RPM, an acceleration/force plot and an efficiency plot within each rotation and then start tweaking.... not to be confused with twerking which is very bad.

Quote from onepower on March 12th, 2018, 10:09 PM

...when your looking for that elusive 1% extra efficiency everything matters.

There is considerable energy discharging from the permanent magnet--we need to snag that and stop paying for fuel.

Quote from Cycle on March 12th, 2018, 08:12 PM

Russ, do you have a BitCoin account?

BTC

1A4XGLmjQqZ5nzKHmqo4DpNsCXWufsCdpd

That should be the one...  Might test it first... 

~Russ

Quote

Russ:
now something to note, the more voltage you apply the more torque you generate. current... ha...?!?!

Technically I would say amp is at least as important as volts.

In a transformer if the volts rise the amps drop with the same power and torque (except momentum).
The rotation speed might be faster but the power is the same.
 
With a step up transformer there is faster rotation with some added minimal gain to the full angular momentum,
a very small gain in time physical momentum at the start to full speed from the input power level.

Quote

well yes, however it all depends on how much we are inducing... If we are inducing 100ma of current, and we are applying a maximum of 12.7ma... Then it will take about 87.3ma worth of "torque" on the output shaft to show any increase in current draw from the battery...  ???

In the case of the coil the above suggests constant voltage but increased amp from induction.

Quote

lets remember this quote:

"If the torque and induction constants are equal,the motor is nearly one hundred percent
efficient. If the torque constant exceeds the induction constant, the efficiency* exceeds
100%.
[*Note: the PRODUCTION efficiency can exceed 100%; the CONVERSION efficiency
cannot exceed 100%]"

Same as saying "if the torque constant is equal to the input power constant".
 
You can have input power with no torque (negative efficiency);
until there is enough input power for mechanical motion.

Your only true consumption input is the battery input. The rest is solid state by the coil.

(I need a mini pony brake the cheapest was $700 unless you made it where did you find it)

Torque is an applied load like any external load to the device. Then there should be a voltage drop and amp gain with a constant input normally.

Near perfect power would be the inverse namely 30,000 amp and 100 mv.

If as above it is outputting 30,000 @ 100 ma and the input is 9v @ 12.5 ma that is huge.

When a load is applied the amp must increase as the conversion is from volts to amps for real power,

My baseline thinking is the third main variable being resistance yields the volt to amp load conversion to power efficiency
for the electromechanical motor generator configuration.

In case you notice I put a common miss in the post. If you have DC a voltage multiplier can substitute the AC step up transformer.

A few interesting videos of an Otis elevator motor rebuild and test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfLIu1U3-sw

Field coils not connected, yet power to the armature causes rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EER0zxnYY7c

Notice the difference in behavior when the coils are connected shunt versus series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5L2-6QM97Q


Because this motor has a lot of iron and no permanent magnets, it's limited as to what it can do, but the concepts are still valid.

Quote from ~Russ on March 12th, 2018, 02:30 PM

Piero, can you try your best using your good math skills and your knowing of maxwell's equations / other to explain how its possible to generate great torque with almost no current, but rather Just voltage.

Well,  this is  not  a  classical   motor  as  you know.
So  ,  we must   think  of  a new mean  to get  the energy   for  working.

My  first  answer  is that  we cannot  use   the  classical  torque formula  as expressed  by  Hasting's report.
But  we  know  that :

-->  W =  ½.C.V²

Is  there  such  a condenser that  can accumulate  charges  from  cumulative  spikes ?

So  thereafter,  we  could  use  the  whole charge  when C  is  full,  to  give  it  to  the  system.
This  is  quite  a big amount of energy and  difficulty  is  to   use  it in the  system.

My  first  guess  is :   using  a  second  classical   rotor  driven  by this  energy ,  and  retro-feed back to drive the  big  magnet shaft  ?

Quote

also please see the attachments as they might help in your understanding of what Hastings did. see here: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48353#msg48353

Somewhat  difficult  to read,  but  have  seen  the  reports in  Newman's book.

Quote

Piero, can you try your best using your good math skills and your knowing of maxwell's equations / other to explain how its possible to generate great torque with almost no current, but rather Just voltage. using the induction current in your calculation i guess?

It is  the induction  current    created in the  big  coil when the  switch  is opened,  which  should   occured  before  the  time constant of the  coil - i.e  when  the  coil  is  not  completely  charged by  gyroscopics particules - ,   that is  about  t~600ms ? - please confirm  this  time  .

According  to  Hastings' report , this  discharge  creates  a very large pulse in the coil,  in the  mag order of 10 amps..
And this  is  what  gives  the Torque

Quote

I'm guessing to do this you will need more info on things, so if so, ask what measurements to take.

Yes :  could  you   catch  this   discharge,  because  I dont  see it  on  your  oscilograh. - I suppose  it is  very  quick impulse !

Quote

also please see the attachments as they might help in your understanding of what Hastings did. see here: http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3128.msg48353#msg48353

Quite   difficult  to   decipher ,   but i'll try my best.

Hi all this is my first post.  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/NMac1118.htm

Thanks Marc,  I have read and seen all of that info.  Thanks for posting it.  Its verry inportant. 

Here is an update. 

https://youtu.be/hpPtI5KNimU

~Russ

Excellent work Russ (for a guy building in his spare time)  !!  :-D

Arduinos...    Yeah.    They're the reason I went to the Cypress PSoC controllers.  Could probably program the PSoC to do all the work in hardware and have the CPU only updating and taking input from the display.  Then you could run 10,000 RPM just fine, with no glitches or timing issues.

I like your little encoder and fiber setup--pretty slick.

All this stuff will probably be needed no matter what the final product ends up looking like.  The beauty in it will be when you want to tie signals on the scope with exact orientation of the magnet.  Having this optical mechanism will prove to be gold.  You'll be able to see the exact degrees where certain phenomena shows up.  And once you're able to see it, then you can zoom in on it and pull out the exact effect you're looking for.

Quote

Arduinos...    Yeah.    They're the reason I went to the Cypress PSoC controllers.  Could probably program the PSoC to do all the work in hardware and have the CPU only updating and taking input from the display.  Then you could run 10,000 RPM just fine, with no glitches or timing issues.

I though this was pretty cool -- http://www.instructables.com/id/Add-an-Arduino-based-Optical-Tachometer-to-a-CNC-R/

Quote

Russ: Voltage is indeed pure catalyst in this configuration...  and only enough current is needed to get alignment... the induction seems to take care of the rest. Or so it seems... more to do...

I suppose I will know with bench tests but hear is a theory idea.

What is the optimal efficiency? Nearly all manufacturers of electric motors rate the efficiency at a particular level that is the maximum efficiency by in house standard test means.

That is the cornerstone of volt to amp to ohm ratios.

So if we define volts as potential if would be a hypothesis to consider that load amps resistance is realized potential.

A standard equilateral triangle is volts over amps is ohms at all being a value of 1 unit.

Then volts high amps low intuitively means hypothetically that there is available potential still to transform in the circuit.
(true or false)

So high amp would indicate the most potential is transformed to real power usable in a load practically.

In the equilateral case amps = volts = resistance an equal balance.

The problem is how much additional load can be transferred to amps without the collapse of the magnetic field
but all of these need test to the specific dynamic electro mechanical configuration unless someone definitely
knows.
           

It may be that an overvoltage which cannot dissipate in the load comes full circle and dissipates in the applied source... if energy is to be conserved.