#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #125, on August 17th, 2013, 12:09 AM »

I noticed this topic is getting a lot of views so I thought I would try to post some more info.

I think there is a lot of confusion when it comes to Meyer's Pulse/frequency doubling.

First off, it is not frequency doubling or pulse doubling. If you build the circuit correctly and connect the coils correctly you WILL NOT see an additional pulse. What you will see is the pulse length at the load/capacitor is 2X the pulse length at the primary coil.

So, if you put a 1kHz 50% duty cycle pulse through the primary coil then the pulse length is
1/1000=.001 x .5 = .0005 Seconds
If you get the effect Meyer calls frequency doubling you will get a pulse at the capacitor that is 2 x .0005 seconds which is .001 Seconds. Which is equal to 1,000 HZ at 100% duty cycle. When this occurs there is a constant current flow to the capacitor which prevents it from discharging between pulses.

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #126, on August 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM »
Thanks HMS!Have you managed to ged the voltage up?

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #127, on August 17th, 2013, 12:49 PM »Last edited on August 17th, 2013, 11:47 PM by HMS-776
OK,

Back to the frequency doubling.

When you put a square wave through an inductor the magnetic field builds up. When the square wave ends the magnetic field collapses. The result is a ramp waveform which resembles a full wave rectified waveform. Since an inductor does not allow instantaneous changes in current the current slowly rises and falls.

Frequency doubling is really not the correct term because you do not get an extra pulse. You get an extension of the applied pulse which is the same length as the applied pulse.

[attachment=4042]
Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM
Thanks HMS!Have you managed to ged the voltage up?
Summer hobbies (mostly mountain biking) have taken up all my time lately. But I'm getting back into the hydrogen game now. Still working on the coil design to be able to get more voltage at the cell. Right now I'm stuck on a few things which are keeping me from my next coil design.

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #128, on August 17th, 2013, 01:08 PM »
Glad to hear this,have you build(in the past) the wfc vic exactly as the estate ones?

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #129, on August 17th, 2013, 02:15 PM »Last edited on August 17th, 2013, 02:19 PM by HMS-776
Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 01:08 PM
Glad to hear this,have you build(in the past) the wfc vic exactly as the estate ones?
Yes I did,  with exact inductances and resistances. But. ... it never worked.
Imo that coil design was incorrect. After all, did anyone see that one producing gas?

Irondmax got it working only after he gapped the core.
Stan's setup had nothing on it to create or maintain a core gap.

I tried replicating Stan's designs, and like most they never worked.
That's when I decided to design my own coils.

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #130, on August 17th, 2013, 04:21 PM »
Thx for reply.I buyed some 30awg wire to build a similar setup but i'm affraid to ruin the wire for nothing.You are using your chokes separately from primary/sec?Max's vic also worked because he used 10 wfc's in series.cheers!

#### Faisca

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #131, on August 17th, 2013, 06:26 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 12:49 PM
OK,

Back to the frequency doubling.

When you put a square wave through an inductor the magnetic field builds up. When the square wave ends the magnetic field collapses. The result is a ramp waveform which resembles a full wave rectified waveform.

Frequency doubling is really not the correct term because you do not get an extra pulse. You get an extension of the applied pulse which is the same length as the applied pulse.

Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM
Thanks HMS!Have you managed to ged the voltage up?
Summer hobbies (mostly mountain biking) have taken up all my time lately. But I'm getting back into the hydrogen game now. Still working on the coil design to be able to get more voltage at the cell. Right now I'm stuck on a few things which are keeping me from my next coil design.
Exactly where I arrived, however the waveform is not sinusoidal, is unlike, inverted
See what I got.[attachment=4043][attachment=4044][attachment=4045][attachment=4046][attachment=4047][attachment=4048]

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #132, on August 17th, 2013, 10:52 PM »Last edited on August 18th, 2013, 10:54 AM by HMS-776
Faisca

What part of the circuit were those scope shots taken from?

The reason I ask is because the current waveform through the inductor should resemble the positive half of an AC signal.

From those pictures it looks like you have a coil which has very high parasitic elements (leakage inductance and capacitance) which cause the leading and trailing edge times to be lengthened.

Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Thx for reply.I buyed some 30awg wire to build a similar setup but i'm affraid to ruin the wire for nothing.You are using your chokes separately from primary/sec?Max's vic also worked because he used 10 wfc's in series.cheers!
Yes...The coils I designed which produced the step charging waveform across the capacitor had the chokes on a separate core.

#### Faisca

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #133, on August 18th, 2013, 10:36 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 10:52 PM
Faisca

What part of the circuit were those scope shots taken from?

The reason I ask is because the current waveform through the inductor should resemble the positive half of an AC signal.

From those pictures it looks like you have a coil which has very high parasitic elements (leakage inductance and capacitance) which cause the leading and trailing edge times to be lengthened.

Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Thx for reply.I buyed some 30awg wire to build a similar setup but i'm affraid to ruin the wire for nothing.You are using your chokes separately from primary/sec?Max's vic also worked because he used 10 wfc's in series.cheers!
Yes...The coils I designed which produced the step charging waveform across the capacitor had the chokes on a separate core.
Precisely between inductor and cell. These oscillograms represent the voltage and / or current in the cell.
Circuit, two 555 (basic), diode, one choke and one cell only.[attachment=4049]
This basic test was very unstable and hard to adjust. It happened almost by accident: When connecting the power, the current must be limited to 200mA (maybe more or less 30mA) and do not always happen on the first try.
See screen shot image, when it did not work.[attachment=4050][attachment=4051]

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #134, on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM »
Ok,

Now I see what's causing the waveforms to look so weird.
Have you tried adding a transformer and coil driver to the circuit?

BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
[attachment=4053]

#### Faisca

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #135, on August 18th, 2013, 12:00 PM »Last edited on August 18th, 2013, 12:02 PM by Faisca
Quote from HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
Ok,

Now I see what's causing the waveforms to look so weird.
Have you tried adding a transformer and coil driver to the circuit?

BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
Okay, your drawing of the waveform is correct, if "on the inductor", however if measured on the cell, will be the way I showed you.
Important: the peak current, arrived at 1A. and the average was 0.17A. The bubbles formed in the middle of the gap, a column of a ring.[attachment=4055]
Yes I tried to rise, using driver and transformer, but the distorted pulse, and the effect was impaired. I believe that with transformer and driver, well designed, I'll have a better result.
A screen shot using driver and transformer:[attachment=4054]

#### Ravenous Emu

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #136, on August 18th, 2013, 08:39 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
...BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
Thanks, HMS.
:D :cool: :P

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #137, on August 18th, 2013, 09:20 PM »Last edited on August 20th, 2013, 07:54 PM by HMS-776
Quote from Ravenous Emu on August 18th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
...BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
Thanks, HMS.
:D :cool: :P
No problem,  The frequency doubling effect is hard to understand because it's not frequency doubling. It should be called pulse time doubling, that's what it really is.

Just so everyone here knows I'm not just making stuff up here's a scope shot from some early coil designs of mine.
The top scope shot is just the transformer with a 100k load across the secondary coil.
The bottom scope shot is the transformer and chokes connected with the same 100K load resistor.
(Measurements taken from across load resistor)

[attachment=4056]

Note the pulse time doubling which occurs with the chokes connected.
Also, note that these 2 coils were bad designs. The coils were each too far underdamped, had long rise and fall times, and backswing.

#### securesupplies

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #138, on August 20th, 2013, 08:37 PM »

Hi this is post from Max and Per NEw Pages
They are continuing to do good work , I have shared here as it raises awareness for industry and may advanced us all more .

Any feed back please comment constructively
Tony also continues to work hard on electronics

Max and Per , PLease  feel invited to participate in forums more
all for one and one for all .

Daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

Stanley Meyers 5-Coil VIC Transformer

Winding and Wire information

After studying existing material on Stanley Meyers 5-coil VIC transformer, a friend of

StanleyMeyerWebshop has written a MATLAB program to fit measured values of DC resistance,

induction values and bobbin dimensions, to reach some practical value of the numbers of windings

and the wire diameter. Parameters to fit were, number of turns, wire diameter and air-gab.

Calculations revealed that two columns of the measured data was swapped for some reason. Here

are the resulting values based on a ferrite core with a relative permability of 2000:

Unit                     Feedback               Primary       Secondary           L1             L2

Windings                487                        629            3384                3558           3290

WireDia[um]           229                        269             254                  254             254

WinHght[mm]         2.6                          1.4              6.6                   6.9              6.4

L[mH]                     25                           42             1203                1330          1137

error[%]                  4                             -0               15                       5                -0

WireLen[m]            27                           35              213                   225             206

Airgab[mm]            3.2

Ueff                       71.8

Enamel-insulated 0.25mm Ø copper wire vill be used:

http://dk.farnell.com/pro-power/ecw0-25/wire-1120m-1-0-25mm-coppertransprnt/dp/1230976?Ntt=1230976

The original wire diameter seems to be slightly thicker but the number of turns is the most

important parameter. When putting on the windings it is recommended to put a layer of insulating

tape every other layers. This provides insulation between layers as well as a smooth surface to lay

the next windings on. Space is tight on the secondary windings. When starting on the winding, put a

piece of insulating tape on top of the start of the wire, so that extra insulation is provided against all

other winding layers.

The insulating tape could for example be 15 mm polyimide (kapton) tape:

http://dk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1503251&CMP=i-bf9f-00001000

When attaching the tape, make sure that there is minimal amount of overlap (if more tape pieces are

needed per layer) and make sure that it is not in the same place to prevent humps from which the

wire will slide down from.

With 0.25 mm wire there is space for approx. 110 turns per layer.

Feel free to use this information for experimentation. PDF here www.stanleymeyermedia.com

Thanks and all the best,

Per Ritter

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #139, on August 21st, 2013, 10:13 AM »
Quote from securesupplies on August 20th, 2013, 08:37 PM
Hi this is post from Max and Per NEw Pages
They are continuing to do good work , I have shared here as it raises awareness for industry and may advanced us all more .

Any feed back please comment constructively
Tony also continues to work hard on electronics

Max and Per , PLease  feel invited to participate in forums more
all for one and one for all .

Daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

Stanley Meyers 5-Coil VIC Transformer

Winding and Wire information

After studying existing material on Stanley Meyers 5-coil VIC transformer, a friend of

StanleyMeyerWebshop has written a MATLAB program to fit measured values of DC resistance,

induction values and bobbin dimensions, to reach some practical value of the numbers of windings

and the wire diameter. Parameters to fit were, number of turns, wire diameter and air-gab.

Calculations revealed that two columns of the measured data was swapped for some reason. Here

are the resulting values based on a ferrite core with a relative permability of 2000:

Unit                     Feedback               Primary       Secondary           L1             L2

Windings                487                        629            3384                3558           3290

WireDia[um]           229                        269             254                  254             254

WinHght[mm]         2.6                          1.4              6.6                   6.9              6.4

L[mH]                     25                           42             1203                1330          1137

error[%]                  4                             -0               15                       5                -0

WireLen[m]            27                           35              213                   225             206

Airgab[mm]            3.2

Ueff                       71.8

Enamel-insulated 0.25mm Ø copper wire vill be used:

http://dk.farnell.com/pro-power/ecw0-25/wire-1120m-1-0-25mm-coppertransprnt/dp/1230976?Ntt=1230976

The original wire diameter seems to be slightly thicker but the number of turns is the most

important parameter. When putting on the windings it is recommended to put a layer of insulating

tape every other layers. This provides insulation between layers as well as a smooth surface to lay

the next windings on. Space is tight on the secondary windings. When starting on the winding, put a

piece of insulating tape on top of the start of the wire, so that extra insulation is provided against all

other winding layers.

The insulating tape could for example be 15 mm polyimide (kapton) tape:

http://dk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1503251&CMP=i-bf9f-00001000

When attaching the tape, make sure that there is minimal amount of overlap (if more tape pieces are

needed per layer) and make sure that it is not in the same place to prevent humps from which the

wire will slide down from.

With 0.25 mm wire there is space for approx. 110 turns per layer.

Feel free to use this information for experimentation. PDF here www.stanleymeyermedia.com

Thanks and all the best,

Per Ritter
My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #140, on August 21st, 2013, 11:11 AM »

My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.[/quote]Much more wire than is necesary,but more wire more voltage,maybe its messes up the res freq.in your case.Dont know why Stan used such thin core.
Have you tried your improved setup with all coils on one core?I gave up working this vic thing,because i have no scope,and poor production.Now i'm working on the alternator,making jigs and squizing more coils on the stator(oh boy thats a real strugle)...cheers!

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #141, on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM »Last edited on August 21st, 2013, 12:42 PM by HMS-776
Quote from adys15 on August 21st, 2013, 11:11 AM
My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.
Much more wire than is necesary,but more wire more voltage,maybe its messes up the res freq.in your case.Dont know why Stan used such thin core.
Have you tried your improved setup with all coils on one core?I gave up working this vic thing,because i have no scope,and poor production.Now i'm working on the alternator,making jigs and squizing more coils on the stator(oh boy thats a real strugle)...cheers![/quote]More wire does not necessarily mean more voltage.  In fact more wire increases the copper losses of the coil which reduces efficiency.  The problem I see with that core is the core area is so small it puts a limit on maximum volt-seconds the core can handle without saturating. If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).

#### Gunther Rattay

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #142, on August 21st, 2013, 01:07 PM »Last edited on August 21st, 2013, 01:46 PM by bussi04
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
... If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
I agree.

That´s the way to be back in action :-)

#### Ravenous Emu

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #143, on August 21st, 2013, 06:16 PM »Last edited on August 21st, 2013, 06:17 PM by Ravenous Emu
Quote from bussi04 on August 21st, 2013, 01:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
... If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
I agree.
That´s the way to be back in action :-)
*raises hand*
I third that. :D

#### gpssonar

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #144, on August 21st, 2013, 06:31 PM »
Quote from Ravenous Emu on August 21st, 2013, 06:16 PM
Quote from bussi04 on August 21st, 2013, 01:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
... If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
I agree.
That´s the way to be back in action :-)
*raises hand*
I third that. :D
I forth it!!!!!!!!

#### securesupplies

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #145, on August 22nd, 2013, 10:51 PM »Last edited on August 22nd, 2013, 10:56 PM by securesupplies
Dan
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
Quote from adys15 on August 21st, 2013, 11:11 AM
My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.
Much more wire than is necesary,but more wire more voltage,maybe its messes up the res freq.in your case.Dont know why Stan used such thin core.
Have you tried your improved setup with all coils on one core?I gave up working this vic thing,because i have no scope,and poor production.Now i'm working on the alternator,making jigs and squizing more coils on the stator(oh boy thats a real strugle)...cheers!
More wire does not necessarily mean more voltage.  In fact more wire increases the copper losses of the coil which reduces efficiency.  The problem I see with that core is the core area is so small it puts a limit on maximum volt-seconds the core can handle without saturating. If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).[/quote]i like this quote alot well said !!

Dan

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #146, on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM »Last edited on September 21st, 2013, 09:52 PM by HMS-776
Thanks everyone:)

Here's something I figured out a while back I thought I would share.

Charging the water capacitor is not much different than charging a typical capacitor. The main difference, the water is conductive, the water capacitor self discharges in a very short time.

When you look at Stan's waveforms (and the waveforms others have posted) you should notice what those waveforms are showing. They show the RC time constant of the circuit.

[attachment=4086]

One thing which is odd about the waveforms is that the charge and discharge time (RC time constants) of the capacitor are not equal. This is because the diode separates the circuit into two different circuits. And because the applied electric field increases the conductivity (reduces the resistance) of the water. So the off time (discharge) RC time constant is much shorter.

The charging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the VIC circuit
-The resistance(impedance) of the water

The discharging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the water (reduced by electric field)

[attachment=4089]

Enjoy everyone!

#### Gunther Rattay

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #147, on August 24th, 2013, 09:46 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
Thanks everyone:)

Now I have something very important to share.

Charging the water capacitor is not much different than charging a typical capacitor. The main difference, the water is conductive, the water capacitor self discharges in a very short time.

When you look at Stan's waveforms (and the waveforms others have posted) you should notice what those waveforms are showing. They show the RC time constant of the circuit.

One thing which is odd about the waveforms is that the charge and discharge time (RC time constants) of the capacitor are not equal. This is because the diode separates the circuit into two different circuits. And because the applied electric field increases the conductivity (reduces the resistance) of the water

The charging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the VIC circuit
-The resistance of the water

The discharging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the water (reduced by electric field)

I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
HMS-776,

when go more into detail for those parameters I´ll try to make an LTSpice model to simulate circuit behaviour.

#### Matt Watts

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #148, on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.

#### HMS-776

##### RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
« Reply #149, on August 24th, 2013, 10:46 AM »Last edited on August 24th, 2013, 10:57 AM by HMS-776
[/quote]HMS-776,

when go more into detail for those parameters I´ll try to make an LTSpice model to simulate circuit behaviour.[/quote]Already did! The only problem is you cannot simulate the non-linear resistance drop of the water. As dog one pointed out, the resistance of the water drops with voltage. It is well known in physics and chemistry that the resistance of water does not follow ohms law.

Because of that you can't get the discharge RC time constant to be shorter than the charging RC time constant on the simulation.

[attachment=4096]

ENJOY!
Quote from Dog-One on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.
I mentioned before that I did leakage tests on the wfc using distilled water. The leakage current rises exponentially with voltage, therefore you cannot charge the cell with a small current. You have to force more current than the water can use to the cell, that is the only way you can build up a voltage across the cell.