# open-source-energy.org

## Open - Source - Research => HHO / Browns Gas / Hydroxy / Stan Meyer => Open-Source Research => Stan Meyer WFC => Topic started by: HMS-776 on July 20th, 2012, 10:00 PM

Title: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 20th, 2012, 10:00 PM
Well,

Still working on finding resonance.

When using a function generator in conjunction with a spectrum analyzer some interesting things happen. The spectrum analyzer shows that as the applied frequency changes the peaks also change. To me this suggests the capacitance changes drastically with frequency (and it's not linear). That is one reason why it's so hard to find resonance on this circuit.

Another interesting thing is that the circuit acts as a filter. At times the square waves turn into sine waves, or amplitude modulation. And at some frequencies the square wave is multiple times lower in frequency than the applied square wave. For instance at 20.5kHz applied the wave across the cap is 37Hz.
[attachment=1987]
Above: Notice the applied frequency of 20.5kHz and the width of the pulse (27mS) is 37Hz.

Not sure exactly what's going on here. But the capacitor is definately a non-linear device. More to come.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on July 21st, 2012, 07:26 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 20th, 2012, 10:00 PM
Well,

Still working on finding resonance.

When using a function generator in conjunction with a spectrum analyzer some interesting things happen. The spectrum analyzer shows that as the applied frequency changes the peaks also change. To me this suggests the capacitance changes drastically with frequency (and it's not linear). That is one reason why it's so hard to find resonance on this circuit.

Another interesting thing is that the circuit acts as a filter. At times the square waves turn into sine waves, or amplitude modulation. And at some frequencies the square wave is multiple times lower in frequency than the applied square wave. For instance at 20.5kHz applied the wave across the cap is 37Hz.

Above: Notice the applied frequency of 20.5kHz and the width of the pulse (27mS) is 37Hz.

Not sure exactly what's going on here. But the capacitor is definately a non-linear device. More to come.
HMS-776 what you used for "X" and "Y", it is not clear.
Should have used for horizontal = "X" the function generator. and vertical = "Y" connection with the capacitor or the output transformer.
And I'm not seeing anything on your spectrum analyzer.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 21st, 2012, 10:08 AM
I will post more later.

That one was just to show the frequency change at the capacitor.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 22nd, 2012, 01:34 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 21st, 2012, 10:08 AM
I will post more later.

That one was just to show the frequency change at the capacitor.
If i remember right Stan said in one of his patents..to change the frequency you have to change the capacitance or the inductance...
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 24th, 2012, 10:30 PM
[attachment=2001]So, Using a function generator and oscilloscope (I am using the parallax propscope) I was able to locate resonance between my cell and choke L1. This is the resonance others have found, and it is also the resonance Stan states in the tech brief.

I redesigned my VIC as I thought the chokes were way to big. Took the primary down to 20AWG and the chokes to about 1000 turns each to achieve 120mH.

It turns out the capacitance drops dramatically and instead of resonance being at the calaculated frequency of just over 4kHz it turned out to be 40kHz. The capacitance dropped from 14nF to 140pF, 100 times drop in capacitance.

Has anyone else noted similiar effects with the water capacitor?

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 27th, 2012, 04:37 AM
Hi,

Finally I measured all my coils and WFC with different types of water in it.
Took me a lot of time to do all the measurements!!!

I hope I see more measurements from other members...

Note: See attachment for details (warning large file) :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Thanks for posting that webmug.

Your measurements confirm that the capacitance decreases with applied frequency.
I see in your capacitor using rain water at 100Hz the capacitance was 1491uF while at 10kHz it dropped to 1.45nF........... .001491 / .00000000145 = 1,028,275. Over one million times the decrease in capacitance over a 10kHz range.  Now I can see why the chokes have such high inducatance.

I onlywish someone out there had a digital capacimeter capable of measuring at 1kHz increments so we could graph the different water types and see if there is a relationship between them and applied frequency. This would help a great deal in calculaing necessary choke size for a chosen frequency.

Update....Using some simple math I determined there is no relationship of cell capacitance when compared with different waters at the same frequency.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 28th, 2012, 04:04 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Thanks for posting that webmug.

Your measurements confirm that the capacitance decreases with applied frequency.
I see in your capacitor using rain water at 100Hz the capacitance was 1491uF while at 10kHz it dropped to 1.45nF........... .001491 / .00000000145 = 1,028,275. Over one million times the decrease in capacitance over a 10kHz range. This changes completly the math involved in calculating the choke inductance for a given resonant frequency. Now I can also see why the chokes in the coils have such high values.

I onlywish someone out there had a digital capacimeter capable of measuring at 1kHz increments so we could graph the different water types and see if there is a relationship between them and applied frequency. This would help a great deal in calculaing necessary choke size for a chosen frequency.

Update....Using some simple math I determined there is no relationship of cell capacitance when compared with different waters at the same frequency.
HMS-776
what about the freq doubling after the chokes?you measured that?I don't have a scope so i cannot measure:( .From what i see there must not be a freq doubling,and from what Stan's says about the magnetic field colapsing,doubling the freq,i think is not true,when one pulse is going to the choke it reaches the cell too,right?in that time a magnetic field is produced,when the pulse is turned off the curent stops flowing tru the coil,the only thing remaining is just the magnetic field...so two separated things..so where is the doubling?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 28th, 2012, 09:03 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 24th, 2012, 10:30 PM
So, Using a function generator and oscilloscope (I am using the parallax propscope) I was able to locate resonance between my cell and choke L1. This is the resonance others have found, and it is also the resonance Stan states in the tech brief.

I redesigned my VIC as I thought the chokes were way to big. Took the primary down to 20AWG and the chokes to about 1000 turns each to achieve 120mH.

It turns out the capacitance drops dramatically and instead of resonance being at the calaculated frequency of just over 4kHz it turned out to be 40kHz. The capacitance dropped from 14nF to 140pF, 100 times drop in capacitance.

Has anyone else noted similiar effects with the water capacitor?
Hi HMS,

Where did you connect the scope probe?
Doesn't look like resonance. If you have resonance you have AC.

The DC pulse on the primary is converted to AC at the secondary coil. This AC swing is then 'rectified' by the blocking diode. The gated AC signal from the secondary is the charger signal for the resonant chokes.

Also check Stan's patents for GND connected between secondary and NEG choke.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 28th, 2012, 01:12 PM
The major problem is where to tune into. If this is the self capacitance of a coil or total coils capacitance or WFC capacitance?

Inductance / capacitance between diode choke POS and WFC.

:exclamation: My findings of the operation of the VIC (which is based on radar PFN [Pulse Forming Network] modulators) :exclamation:

Resonance on the secondary coil is the key to have AC maximum voltage swing and use this signal as a charger component (voltage amplitude and resonance frequency).
(Stan stated if you change the windings count of the secondary / primary you can create more voltage potential) This said, alters the resonance frequency so a PLL is required to maintain resonance conditions. Think about this: why is the feedback coil between the primary and secondary coil! If secondary is on resonance it is voltage amplitude independent.

Then the choke and WFC must be tuned on the charger signal to establish resonant charging. It can be DC resonant charging. AC resonant charging is also possible, but this is even more difficult!

Stan wanted minimum amps and maximum voltage potential to develop at the exciters (and restricting amps using opposite chokes, voltage) and this can only be done using resonant charging by means of a charging frequency on resonance. If you read this it's difficult to understand but there are two resonance circuits connected to each other on the same or double tuned frequency.

He also is using a blocking diode so AC resonant charging is more likely. Stan states: the blocking diode prevent shorting the secondary coil and prevents discharging the WFC and creates a double pulse from the choke due the magnetic coupling.
If this is so, a blocking diode is needed to prevent a short when the gate switch(no signal) disable the charging signal and POS resonant choke discharges into the WFC. The NEG choke mirrors the POS choke (equal but opposite voltage) by using the magnetic field and restricts amps in the process.

Conditions for tuning the coils / capacitance / inductance and the WFC water type must be maintained. These are altered by the type of core inserted in the VIC transformer. If the chokes are connected to the secondary coil all conditions are changed because of the core coupling.

If the conditions are matched/tuned on the secondary charger signal, we can tune the gate for resonant charging (voltage potential) and charge the WFC with UNIPOLAR PULSES (discharging the chokes).

"The simplest type of a-c inductance charging is a-c resonant charging, in which the charging circuit is tuned to resonance at the impressed a-c frequency.

The network voltage reaches a maximum value when the impressed sinusoidal voltage is passing through zero. The pulses therefore occur whenever the impressed voltage is zero. Although the pulse recurrence frequency is usually equal to the impressed a-c frequency, it is sometimes double the impressed frequency, in which case there is one pulse for each half cycle of the applied-voltage wave. The disadvantage of a-c resonant charging is that the voltage across the network continues to build up if the switch misses one or several pulses.”

Here PULSE is read as a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

So if the switch misses several pulses the voltage continues to build up and charges the WFC to a point what the components can handle.

The PULSE frequency on the primary coil is in phase with the other coils.

Cheers!

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 28th, 2012, 09:24 PM
[attachment=2020]

The circuit above is a schematic of what I used to find the resonant frequency.
It is a well known way to find the resonance of an LC circuit...

Adys15, Since the circuit was pulsed with AC there is no frequency doubling.

Webmug, the scope does not show AC because I was not exactly at the right frequency, but the spectrum analyzer still shows the peaks that occur within the circuit.

BTW everyone, I think that inverse relationship between capacitance and frequency is one reason why Meyer states the circuit should be kept in the audio range.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 29th, 2012, 03:20 AM
Quote from Webmug on July 28th, 2012, 01:12 PM
The major problem is where to tune into. If this is the self capacitance of a coil or total coils capacitance or WFC capacitance?

Inductance / capacitance between diode choke POS and WFC.

:exclamation: My findings of the operation of the VIC (which is based on radar PFN [Pulse Forming Network] modulators) :exclamation:

Resonance on the secondary coil is the key to have AC maximum voltage swing and use this signal as a charger component (voltage amplitude and resonance frequency).
(Stan stated if you change the windings count of the secondary / primary you can create more voltage potential) This said, alters the resonance frequency so a PLL is required to maintain resonance conditions. Think about this: why is the feedback coil between the primary and secondary coil! If secondary is on resonance it is voltage amplitude independent.

Then the choke and WFC must be tuned on the charger signal to establish resonant charging. It can be DC resonant charging. AC resonant charging is also possible, but this is even more difficult!

Stan wanted minimum amps and maximum voltage potential to develop at the exciters (and restricting amps using opposite chokes, voltage) and this can only be done using resonant charging by means of a charging frequency on resonance. If you read this it's difficult to understand but there are two resonance circuits connected to each other on the same or double tuned frequency.

He also is using a blocking diode so AC resonant charging is more likely. Stan states: the blocking diode prevent shorting the secondary coil and prevents discharging the WFC and creates a double pulse from the choke due the magnetic coupling.
If this is so, a blocking diode is needed to prevent a short when the gate switch(no signal) disable the charging signal and POS resonant choke discharges into the WFC. The NEG choke mirrors the POS choke (equal but opposite voltage) by using the magnetic field and restricts amps in the process.

Conditions for tuning the coils / capacitance / inductance and the WFC water type must be maintained. These are altered by the type of core inserted in the VIC transformer. If the chokes are connected to the secondary coil all conditions are changed because of the core coupling.

If the conditions are matched/tuned on the secondary charger signal, we can tune the gate for resonant charging (voltage potential) and charge the WFC with UNIPOLAR PULSES (discharging the chokes).

"The simplest type of a-c inductance charging is a-c resonant charging, in which the charging circuit is tuned to resonance at the impressed a-c frequency.

The network voltage reaches a maximum value when the impressed sinusoidal voltage is passing through zero. The pulses therefore occur whenever the impressed voltage is zero. Although the pulse recurrence frequency is usually equal to the impressed a-c frequency, it is sometimes double the impressed frequency, in which case there is one pulse for each half cycle of the applied-voltage wave. The disadvantage of a-c resonant charging is that the voltage across the network continues to build up if the switch misses one or several pulses.”

Here PULSE is read as a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

So if the switch misses several pulses the voltage continues to build up and charges the WFC to a point what the components can handle.

The PULSE frequency on the primary coil is in phase with the other coils.

Cheers!

Br,
Webmug
The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief(http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Patents/S.Meyer-The%20Birth%20of%20New%20Technology.pdf)

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 1-2: Re:Hydrogen Fracturing Process Memo WFC 420 :exclamation:

"...The Inductor( C ) takes on or becomes an Modulator Inductor which steps up an oscillation of an given charging frequency with effective capacitance of an pulse-forming network in order to charge the voltage zones (E/E2) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input.

The Inductance ( C ) and Capacitance ( ER ) properties of the LC circuit is therefore "tuned" to resonance at a certain frequency. The Resonant Frequency can be raised or lowered by changing the inductance and/or the capacitance values. The established resonant frequency is, of course, independent of voltage amplitude..."

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 3-7: Re:WFC Hydrogen Gas Management System Memo WFC 422 DA :exclamation:

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 7-3: RE: VIC Matrix Circuit Memo WFC 426 :exclamation:
"..pulse forming network (64a xxx 64n) of Figure ( 7 -1 ) as to ( 600 ) of Figure ( 6-3 ) in order to charge Voltage Zones ( E9/E10 ) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input.."

Fig.7-5 660 : Inductance Charging Effect

"a-c resonance charging" Page 19. in "line-type-radar-modulators-49_Brown.pdf"

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3818#pid3818
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3846#pid3846

Page 96.
A Textbook of Radar: A Collective Work by the Staff of the Radiophysics Laboratory, C. S. I. R. O., Australia(http://books.google.nl/books?id=K4I8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA92&dq=resonant+charging&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=7JLXT_24E8bY8AO5qtyrAw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=resonant%20charging&f=false)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I see what your saying Webmug,

Many of us have drawn the conclusion from Meyer's explanations that the VIC is an adaptation of a DC resonant charging circuit. However, there are several things that make it very difficult to achieve resonance which causes people to believe otherwise.

First off the capacitor is non-linear. The non-linearity of the capacitor can easily cause harmonics to show up. Also, the fact that your applying a square wave increases the chances of harmonics. The coils themselves are equivalent to bandpass filters which can produce harmonics and create amplitude modulation if they are not correctly damped.

And lastly, we know the capacitance is inversely related to frequency.

So overall the circuit and processes seem simple, but getting it to work is really an engineering feat. There is one person I have been into contact with who replicated Meyer years back. He stated that it took years of electronics experience just to tune the circuit into resonance. And even then he said it took him over a year to get it working.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 29th, 2012, 03:15 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I see what your saying Webmug,

Many of us have drawn the conclusion from Meyer's explanations that the VIC is an adaptation of a DC resonant charging circuit. However, there are several things that make it very difficult to achieve resonance which causes people to believe otherwise.

First off the capacitor is non-linear. The non-linearity of the capacitor can easily cause harmonics to show up. Also, the fact that your applying a square wave increases the chances of harmonics. The coils themselves are equivalent to bandpass filters which can produce harmonics and create amplitude modulation if they are not correctly damped.

And lastly, we know the capacitance is inversely related to frequency.

So overall the circuit and processes seem simple, but getting it to work is really an engineering feat. There is one person I have been into contact with who replicated Meyer years back. He stated that it took years of electronics experience just to tune the circuit into resonance. And even then he said it took over a year to get it working.
In my opinion it is not dc charging but it is ac charging. The choke operates as a pfn what generates unipolar pulses at the exciters when the gate time is tuned on the right phase to discharge the pfn. The coil should have capacitance and inductance to form a pfn.

It would be a big leap if you can get in contact with that person and could provide more information to reproduce his findings... ???

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM
I have been in contact with him for some time. He actually gave up on the project years ago as he said it was far too much work with little results (Sounds familiar).

The immersed cells are just too touchy. Seems to me that the greater the volume of water in the cell the more non-linear it is. That's why as Meyer's work progressed the cells got smaller with each design until finally he went to the injectors. The tiny volume of water in the injectors made them much more reliable as it reduced the non-linearity of the capacitance.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 30th, 2012, 03:09 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM
I have been in contact with him for some time. He actually gave up on the project years ago as he said it was far too much work with little results (Sounds familiar).

The immersed cells are just too touchy. Seems to me that the greater the volume of water in the cell the more non-linear it is. That's why as Meyer's work progressed the cells got smaller with each design until finally he went to the injectors. The tiny volume of water in the injectors made them much more reliable as it reduced the non-linearity of the capacitance.
So this person never had a working VIC? But have you learned anything new what his finding where building a VIC and WFC? Theories, used books, tech etc.

Yes, this is why Stan build the exciters in insulated Delrin cavities. To prevent voltage fluctuations. I did not test if the water volume has affect on the capacitance.

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sharky on July 30th, 2012, 04:09 AM
Webmug may have a good point there! Meyer indeed was a radar specialist so it would not be strange if his wfc tech was based on his radar tech knowlegde. Take a look at this radar basics information, ... do you see anything familiar ;)

Charging coil, blocking diode and the double pulse principle are very well explained!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 30th, 2012, 04:18 AM
Quote from Sharky on July 30th, 2012, 04:09 AM
Webmug may have a good point there! Meyer indeed was a radar specialist so it would not be strange if his wfc tech was based on his radar tech knowlegde. Take a look at this radar basics information, ... do you see anything familiar ;)

Charging coil, blocking diode and the double pulse principle are very well explained!
If you read Stan patents very carefully most terminology is the same as in radar technical books. Even use alternators for charging the PFN!!

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 30th, 2012, 10:09 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
I onlywish someone out there had a digital capacimeter capable of measuring at 1kHz increments so we could graph the different water types and see if there is a relationship between them and applied frequency. This would help a great deal in calculaing necessary choke size for a chosen frequency.
Programmable LCR Meter(http://www.tegam.com/PDF_Files/Resources/TEG_3550_DS.pdf)

http://www.vasavi.co.in/200khz_LCR.htm

http://www.tonghui.com.cn/en/goods/index/60.html

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 30th, 2012, 05:12 PM
Thanks Webmug, I knew such a device had to exist.

The only problem is wow, they are quite expensive. So I guess for now that's going to get ruled out. We already know the capacitor is non-linear. The numbers you provided as well as my own testing prove that.

For now the work continues. I am waiting for some electronics stuff to arrive which will give me much more precise tuning capabilities. Until then I don't have much else to do.

And yes Webmug as you pointed out there is a definate RADAR connection. Waveguides, PFN's, AC and DC charging etc! Good posts on those!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 1st, 2012, 05:22 AM
Quote from Webmug on July 30th, 2012, 03:09 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM
I have been in contact with him for some time. He actually gave up on the project years ago as he said it was far too much work with little results (Sounds familiar).

The immersed cells are just too touchy. Seems to me that the greater the volume of water in the cell the more non-linear it is. That's why as Meyer's work progressed the cells got smaller with each design until finally he went to the injectors. The tiny volume of water in the injectors made them much more reliable as it reduced the non-linearity of the capacitance.
So this person never had a working VIC? But have you learned anything new what his finding where building a VIC and WFC? Theories, used books, tech etc.

Yes, this is why Stan build the exciters in insulated Delrin cavities. To prevent voltage fluctuations. I did not test if the water volume has affect on the capacitance.

Br,
Webmug
I did a few more measurements on the 3 inch water fuel cell with different water volumes... and used demineralized water.

At frequency above 1kHz the capacitance is almost the same, only the resistance is altered. Minimal resistance at low water volume and maximum higher volume.

Don't know the effect if we circulate the water through the wfc.

I'm thinking why did Stan build a large volume water bath above the WFC cavity's?

If he used Natural water (Rain water) in the WFC's then it has about 156ohms in the test WFC but what is the adding resistance in the WFC's water bath?

Also it has a level indicator, not for water tank volume this was an external water tank. I think it was for (variable) resistance?

Any thoughts?

UPDATE:
Somehow my measurements are not correct on the variable water volume. My other measurements on rain water have the same resistances (low or high volume) in the WFC. So water volume have no effect on resistance or capacitance.

Maybe water flow is needed to prevent air-gas-bubbles, to do good measurements.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 1st, 2012, 04:06 PM
I actually did a test last year on leakage current and water circulation.
I tested the 3" tube cell with still and circulating water to see if the leakage current would change.

Turns out with or without water flow the leakage current was the same.
(12V and tap water leakage was 15mA, 12V and distilled leakage was 5mA.)

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1833.msg21085.html#msg21085(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1833.msg21085.html#msg21085)

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: VWType181 on August 1st, 2012, 06:39 PM
It is important to remember that capacitors are not linear, nor are inductors. These are what we call reactive devices. This means that the current will flow differently than the voltage. The capacitive reactance and inductive reactance do not change depending on what frequency is fed to it. However the the amount of current taken or voltage passed does.

Good rule of thumb is ELI and ICE
These stand for:
ELI -> Voltage leads current, the 'L' doesn't stand for lead tho, rather inductive reactance. This means with a sine wave or RMS of some other wave, the rising side of the voltage will start, however it is not until after or near peak voltage that the current starts to flow.
ICE -> Current leads voltage, the 'C' stands for capacitive reactance. This has similar attributes to an inductor except that it takes on current first and as the charge in a capacitor starts to increase, the electron flow will slow down, voltage will rise. One Farad is a unit of measurement where 1F will hold one volt and one coulumb (spelling may be off). A Coulumb is the number of electrons in one amp second.

So when you have an inductor and a capacitor and these are 180 degrees out of phase from each other when talking about current they will charge each other at the same rate of discharge of the other devices only at a specific frequency.

Water as an electrolyte for capacitance should change based on the electrolytic components in the water. So this is why capacitance changes whether ur using de-ionized distilled water opposed to sea water. Thus you will need a different frequency for each.

The higher the voltage to the injectors (capacitor) the faster they will absorb or take on current, which is what separates water.

So the inductance inside of the VIC isn't as important as the matching capacitance of the injectors.

I'm sure most of you knew this information, however I decided to post this for the notes of anybody that needs it.

Thanks!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: ~Russ on August 2nd, 2012, 04:38 AM
good work going on here, keep up the good work guys! i'm watching! lol ~Russ
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 2nd, 2012, 09:34 AM
Quote from VWType181 on August 1st, 2012, 06:39 PM
It is important to remember that capacitors are not linear, nor are inductors. These are what we call reactive devices. This means that the current will flow differently than the voltage. The capacitive reactance and inductive reactance do not change depending on what frequency is fed to it. However the the amount of current taken or voltage passed does.

Good rule of thumb is ELI and ICE
These stand for:
ELI -> Voltage leads current, the 'L' doesn't stand for lead tho, rather inductive reactance. This means with a sine wave or RMS of some other wave, the rising side of the voltage will start, however it is not until after or near peak voltage that the current starts to flow.
ICE -> Current leads voltage, the 'C' stands for capacitive reactance. This has similar attributes to an inductor except that it takes on current first and as the charge in a capacitor starts to increase, the electron flow will slow down, voltage will rise. One Farad is a unit of measurement where 1F will hold one volt and one coulumb (spelling may be off). A Coulumb is the number of electrons in one amp second.

So when you have an inductor and a capacitor and these are 180 degrees out of phase from each other when talking about current they will charge each other at the same rate of discharge of the other devices only at a specific frequency.

Water as an electrolyte for capacitance should change based on the electrolytic components in the water. So this is why capacitance changes whether ur using de-ionized distilled water opposed to sea water. Thus you will need a different frequency for each.

The higher the voltage to the injectors (capacitor) the faster they will absorb or take on current, which is what separates water.

So the inductance inside of the VIC isn't as important as the matching capacitance of the injectors.

I'm sure most of you knew this information, however I decided to post this for the notes of anybody that needs it.

Thanks!
Any ideas how to design the primary / feedback / secondary coils and tune them on resonance?

What if the wire length of primary is 1/4 or 1/2 wavelengths of secondary, can they be tuned?

Why because the secondary coil (charger) has halve the resonance frequency of the positive resonant charging choke (choke and WFC "LCR").

If you know the resonant charging choke frequency you can design the secondary coil, feedback and the primary coil (on halve resonant frequency). All coils are in phase with the primary pulse signal.
The blocking diode doubles the frequency of the secondary used by the resonant charging choke.

Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sharky on August 3rd, 2012, 01:11 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 2nd, 2012, 09:34 AM
Any ideas how to design the primary / feedback / secondary coils and tune them on resonance?

What if the wire length of primary is 1/4 or 1/2 wavelengths of secondary, can they be tuned?

Why because the secondary coil (charger) has halve the resonance frequency of the positive resonant charging choke (choke and WFC "LCR").

If you know the resonant charging choke frequency you can design the secondary coil, feedback and the primary coil (on halve resonant frequency). All coils are in phase with the primary pulse signal.
The blocking diode doubles the frequency of the secondary used by the resonant charging choke.

Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Webmug are you sure you see the second pulse from the collapsing field of the charging choke on your feedback coil? In my opinion it should not be there since the diode prevents the second pulse from reaching the secondary but instead forces it into the water capacitor causing the step charging effect. So the pulse doubling will be seen at the capacitor but not at the secondary and feedback coils?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 3rd, 2012, 01:30 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 3rd, 2012, 01:11 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 2nd, 2012, 09:34 AM
Any ideas how to design the primary / feedback / secondary coils and tune them on resonance?

What if the wire length of primary is 1/4 or 1/2 wavelengths of secondary, can they be tuned?

Why because the secondary coil (charger) has halve the resonance frequency of the positive resonant charging choke (choke and WFC "LCR").

If you know the resonant charging choke frequency you can design the secondary coil, feedback and the primary coil (on halve resonant frequency). All coils are in phase with the primary pulse signal.
The blocking diode doubles the frequency of the secondary used by the resonant charging choke.

Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Webmug are you sure you see the second pulse from the collapsing field of the charging choke on your feedback coil? In my opinion it should not be there since the diode prevents the second pulse from reaching the secondary but instead forces it into the water capacitor causing the step charging effect. So the pulse doubling will be seen at the capacitor but not at the secondary and feedback coils?
The double pulse is formed when the gate shuts down the PLL and this unipolar pulse is bounced back from the blocking diode. Since the magnetic collapse is on the core but the PLL is off it doesn't do anything until the gate switches the PLL back on for next charging cycle.
So discharging the chokes is when secondary stops the charging of the resonant chokes, gate is active. Diode prevents a short of the secondary coil when discarging the chokes as unipolar pulse.

Thus the double pulse is at the chokes and on the core but also the neg choke prevents current flow on the neg secondary side when collapsing the magnetic field and so restrict the current at the same time. Also the blocking diode prevents leakage of the wfc and step charge the wfc.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sharky on August 3rd, 2012, 03:10 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 3rd, 2012, 01:30 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 3rd, 2012, 01:11 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 2nd, 2012, 09:34 AM
Any ideas how to design the primary / feedback / secondary coils and tune them on resonance?

What if the wire length of primary is 1/4 or 1/2 wavelengths of secondary, can they be tuned?

Why because the secondary coil (charger) has halve the resonance frequency of the positive resonant charging choke (choke and WFC "LCR").

If you know the resonant charging choke frequency you can design the secondary coil, feedback and the primary coil (on halve resonant frequency). All coils are in phase with the primary pulse signal.
The blocking diode doubles the frequency of the secondary used by the resonant charging choke.

Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Webmug are you sure you see the second pulse from the collapsing field of the charging choke on your feedback coil? In my opinion it should not be there since the diode prevents the second pulse from reaching the secondary but instead forces it into the water capacitor causing the step charging effect. So the pulse doubling will be seen at the capacitor but not at the secondary and feedback coils?
The double pulse is formed when the gate shuts down the PLL and this unipolar pulse is bounced back from the blocking diode. Since the magnetic collapse is on the core but the PLL is off it doesn't do anything until the gate switches the PLL back on for next charging cycle.
So discharging the chokes is when secondary stops the charging of the resonant chokes, gate is active. Diode prevents a short of the secondary coil when discarging the chokes as unipolar pulse.

Thus the double pulse is at the chokes and on the core but also the neg choke prevents current flow on the neg secondary side when collapsing the magnetic field and so restrict the current at the same time. Also the blocking diode prevents leakage of the wfc and step charge the wfc.

Br,
Webmug
Hmmm, nice discussion :cool:, ... take a look at the Birth of a Technology memo 422DA figure 3-19 and 3-20. There is a difference between input pulse train, which has a 50% duty cycle (so not the gating but for the pulses) and the pulse train at the cell. The magnetic field does not only collapse when gating is on but the field collapses after every pulse of the input pulse train. See paragraph 2 at page 3-8, there it states:

"Switching diode of figure 3-22 not only acts as a blocking diode by preventing electrical shorting to secondary coil during pulse off-time since diode only conducts electrical energy in the direction of schematic arrow; but, also and at the same time functions as a electronic switch which opens electrical circuit during pulse off-time allowing magnetic fields of both inductor coils to collapse forming pulse train 64a xxx 64n"

Remains the question if a collapse of the magnetic field/release of the chokes energy to the cell causes a pulse on the core or only at the cell?

Do you have measurements of the extra pulses on the feedback coil with a scope?

Regards,
Sharky
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 5th, 2012, 09:32 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 3rd, 2012, 03:10 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 3rd, 2012, 01:30 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 3rd, 2012, 01:11 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 2nd, 2012, 09:34 AM
Any ideas how to design the primary / feedback / secondary coils and tune them on resonance?

What if the wire length of primary is 1/4 or 1/2 wavelengths of secondary, can they be tuned?

Why because the secondary coil (charger) has halve the resonance frequency of the positive resonant charging choke (choke and WFC "LCR").

If you know the resonant charging choke frequency you can design the secondary coil, feedback and the primary coil (on halve resonant frequency). All coils are in phase with the primary pulse signal.
The blocking diode doubles the frequency of the secondary used by the resonant charging choke.

Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Webmug are you sure you see the second pulse from the collapsing field of the charging choke on your feedback coil? In my opinion it should not be there since the diode prevents the second pulse from reaching the secondary but instead forces it into the water capacitor causing the step charging effect. So the pulse doubling will be seen at the capacitor but not at the secondary and feedback coils?
The double pulse is formed when the gate shuts down the PLL and this unipolar pulse is bounced back from the blocking diode. Since the magnetic collapse is on the core but the PLL is off it doesn't do anything until the gate switches the PLL back on for next charging cycle.
So discharging the chokes is when secondary stops the charging of the resonant chokes, gate is active. Diode prevents a short of the secondary coil when discarging the chokes as unipolar pulse.

Thus the double pulse is at the chokes and on the core but also the neg choke prevents current flow on the neg secondary side when collapsing the magnetic field and so restrict the current at the same time. Also the blocking diode prevents leakage of the wfc and step charge the wfc.

Br,
Webmug
Hmmm, nice discussion :cool:, ... take a look at the Birth of a Technology memo 422DA figure 3-19 and 3-20. There is a difference between input pulse train, which has a 50% duty cycle (so not the gating but for the pulses) and the pulse train at the cell. The magnetic field does not only collapse when gating is on but the field collapses after every pulse of the input pulse train. See paragraph 2 at page 3-8, there it states:

"Switching diode of figure 3-22 not only acts as a blocking diode by preventing electrical shorting to secondary coil during pulse off-time since diode only conducts electrical energy in the direction of schematic arrow; but, also and at the same time functions as a electronic switch which opens electrical circuit during pulse off-time allowing magnetic fields of both inductor coils to collapse forming pulse train 64a xxx 64n"

Remains the question if a collapse of the magnetic field/release of the chokes energy to the cell causes a pulse on the core or only at the cell?

Do you have measurements of the extra pulses on the feedback coil with a scope?

Regards,
Sharky
Hi Sharky,

You are right about the 50% pulse. After diode the choke generates double pulse when magnetic field collapses.

Info what Stan tells in the patent about Impedance (Z) is very important!

Electrical Impedance (Z), is the total opposition that a circuit presents to alternating current. Impedance is measured in ohms and may include resistance (R), inductive reactance (XL), and capacitive reactance (XC). However, the total impedance is not simply the algebraic sum of the resistance, inductive reactance, and capacitive reactance. Since the inductive reactance and capacitive reactance are 90o out of phase with the resistance and, therefore, their maximum values occur at different times, vector addition must be used to calculate impedance.

This Z is for secondary, positive and negative chokes and wfc.
If you connect the chokes to the wfc, you notice the inductance is altered and also the capacitance and resistance. Neg choke gives 180 phase shift to choke pos.

Choke neg is tuned for Z Equal to Choke pos Z to restrict current and charge the water molecules.

Gating tunes in on the "water molecule resonance", meaning pulsing voltage , step charge level. (pulsating voltage on step charging) resonant action.

We want a AC resonant wave what is seen 180o phase at the wfc where current is minimal on the Z vector impedance. When you connect equal chokes to opposite sides of wfc you see differences between them. Stan tuned the neg choke Z to have almost zero current to pos choke, what steps up the voltage at the wfc (charges the water molecule) with unipolar double frequency pulses. Neg Step charge AC signal is blocked by diode so only unipolar pulse is seen at the pos choke side. When neg side has no diode and is copied due magnetic field but is 180o out of phase with pos choke. Chokes are tuned on double charge frequency from the secondary coil.

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 6th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Tony, have you tested this on the resonance VIC?

When I measure at the chokes I have 180o phase what is seen in the video. But when I connect the WFC, I have all the signals in phase again... :D

Ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 7th, 2012, 02:16 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 6th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Tony, have you tested this on the resonance VIC?

When I measure at the chokes I have 180o phase what is seen in the video. But when I connect the WFC, I have all the signals in phase again... :D

Ideas?

Br,
Webmug
I can´t understand what signal the video shows. are those signal lines 1 channel or two?

if it´s one channel the scope´s timebase makes a trick and the signal is a normal sine. a single voltage pulse can´t be positive and negative at the same time ...

if it´s 2 channels where are the signals taken from?

without exact circuit wireing information and a component scheme it´s hollywood ...

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 7th, 2012, 02:34 AM
Quote from bussi04 on August 7th, 2012, 02:16 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 6th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Tony, have you tested this on the resonance VIC?

When I measure at the chokes I have 180o phase what is seen in the video. But when I connect the WFC, I have all the signals in phase again... :D

Ideas?

Br,
Webmug
I can´t understand what signal the video shows. are those signal lines 1 channel or two?

if it´s one channel the scope´s timebase makes a trick and the signal is a normal sine. a single voltage pulse can´t be positive and negative at the same time ...

if it´s 2 channels where are the signals taken from?

without exact circuit wireing information and a component scheme it´s hollywood ...

I measure with two channel scope at B+ and B- (choke output).
GND leads connected between secondary neg and choke neg.
I see two AC signals 180o out of phase on two channel inputs.

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 7th, 2012, 02:28 PM
Question: "how do you restrict current" ?
Quote
The value of the Inductor (C), the value of the capacitor (ER), and the pulse-frequency of the voltage
being applied across the LC circuit determines the impedance of the LC circuit
Quote
The Inductor (C) takes on or becomes an Modulator Inductor which steps up an oscillation of an
given charging frequency
with the effective capacitance of an pulse-forming network in order to charge
the voltage zones (E1/E2) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input
Amp leakage is restricted to 1-2 milliamp on resonance, so 2000 to 5000 Voltage potential applied gives E=IZ -> 2000=1 *10^-3 Z -> Z= 2 Mega Ohms or Z=2.5Mega Ohms total electrical Impedance at the chokes on typical 5kHz frequency.
Quote
Info what Stan tells in the patent about Impedance (Z) is very important!

Electrical Impedance (Z), is the total opposition that a circuit presents to alternating current. Impedance is measured in ohms and may include resistance ®, inductive reactance (XL), and capacitive reactance (XC). However, the total impedance is not simply the algebraic sum of the resistance, inductive reactance, and capacitive reactance. Since the inductive reactance and capacitive reactance are 90o out of phase with the resistance and, therefore, their maximum values occur at different times, vector addition must be used to calculate impedance.

This Z is for secondary, positive and negative chokes and wfc.
If you connect the chokes to the wfc, you notice the inductance is altered and also the capacitance and resistance. Neg choke gives 180 phase shift to choke pos.

Choke neg is tuned for Z Equal to Choke pos Z to restrict current and charge the water molecules.
Since the coils are not perfect components we have to use Real Components capacitor (Rs, L, C, Rp) and inductor (Rs, L, Cw) combined WFC (C and R) and calculate the needed Z for the chokes. This is then on typically 5kHz resonance 3 inch resonance WFC!
Quote
Variable inductor-coil (D), similar to inductor (C) connected to opposite polarity voltage zone (E2)
further inhibits electron movement or deflection within the Voltage Intensifier Circuit. Movable wiper
arm fine "tunes" "Resonant Action" during pulsing operations. Inductor (D) in relationship to inductor
(C) electrically balances the opposite voltage electrical potential across voltage zones (EI/E2).
Negative choke has different Z as the positive choke, because it has R wfc added to the total Electrical Impedance and needs 'tuning'.

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 8th, 2012, 08:28 AM
Hi,

Can you explain this scope shot what I took?

The secondary lead B+ and B- are connected to two identical scope probes channels A en B. Look what the voltage is on both channels. A-B is also visible. Scope AB gnds are connected.
The secondary is on SRF (self resonance frequency). Primary was pulsed 50% square wave 12V. They are 180 out of phase????? Scope channels are not inverted.

Why are the blue and yellow scope traces not opposite but equal in amplitude?

What happens when you connect a choke at B- and/or B+ tuned on this frequency? Give more voltage right?

Solved: got tiny wire hanging out B-. Now the voltages are equal. Just to said how sensitive the coils are!!!!!  ???

(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2063)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 11th, 2012, 11:52 PM

Hey Everyone,

Tonight I was able to get the frequency doubling effect to occur, I was also able to lock on resonance. But I could not get both at the same time. No gas produced but still a few steps in the right direction.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 12th, 2012, 02:17 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 11th, 2012, 11:52 PM
Hey Everyone,

Tonight I was able to get the frequency doubling effect to occur, I was also able to lock on resonance. But I could not get both at the same time. No gas produced but still a few steps in the right direction.

that´s great! please add a circuit diagram showing the probe access points :-)

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Shainagua on August 12th, 2012, 08:12 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 11th, 2012, 11:52 PM
Hey Everyone,

Tonight I was able to get the frequency doubling effect to occur, I was also able to lock on resonance. But I could not get both at the same time. No gas produced but still a few steps in the right direction.

Wonderful news, I can not wait to see the video.

Good work and thanks for sharing, blessings

Shainagua
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 12th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Here's the video of the frequency doubling effect!

If there are any questions don't hesitate to ask me as I will be happy to answer them.

Bussi04.

The oscope is connected directly at the cell (in parallel) and at the feedback coil test point. I also move it to the primary coil in the video so you can see the difference between the primary and feedback coils doubled frequency.

Although I'm getting frequency doubling it looks more like tripling or quadroupling frequency. I think that's only due to errors on my part and the fact that the impedances are not matched, nor are the secondary and choke coils the same values. Perhaps if I was able to adjust the duty cycle I could get the doubling effect to more closely ressemble Stans.

The work continues!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 12th, 2012, 05:49 PM
Here's a better video showing the frequency doubling and the difference between my frequency doubling and Stan's.

[attachment=2078]
Above is a scopeshot of the frequency doubling at a different frequency. I have noticed that is occurs at different frequencies but not at all frequencies.
Note that the phases are not matched which shows the circuit is not in resonance.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sharky on August 13th, 2012, 12:28 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 12th, 2012, 05:49 PM
Here's a better video showing the frequency doubling and the difference between my frequency doubling and Stan's.

Above is a scopeshot of the frequency doubling at a different frequency. I have noticed that is occurs at different frequencies but not at all frequencies.
Note that the phases are not matched which shows the circuit is not in resonance.
Current will only be induced in the secondary coil if there is a change in the magnetic field on the primairy caused by a changing current. So on the rising edge of the pulse on the primairy you see the secondary rising as well, then when the pulse on the primairy stays on its max pulse value there is no change in magnetic field anymore, thus no signal on the secondary. When you get at the falling edge, change again so pulse on the secondary again. So i think it is the standard transformer action what is happening in my oppinion in your video.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 13th, 2012, 12:30 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 30th, 2012, 05:12 PM
Thanks Webmug, I knew such a device had to exist.

The only problem is wow, they are quite expensive. So I guess for now that's going to get ruled out. We already know the capacitor is non-linear. The numbers you provided as well as my own testing prove that.

For now the work continues. I am waiting for some electronics stuff to arrive which will give me much more precise tuning capabilities. Until then I don't have much else to do.

And yes Webmug as you pointed out there is a definate RADAR connection. Waveguides, PFN's, AC and DC charging etc! Good posts on those!
this measurement support tool may be useful: http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=469&pid=6965#pid6965

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 15th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I'm posting this message here to lead you to ionizationx.com because I don't want to post a copy of a thread twice.

This could be the working principle of the Resonance VIC transformer and also the Injector VIC unit since it is a follow up improved version.
Quote from http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23224.html#msg23224
The VIC is a system for restricting the flow of amperes while allowing voltage electrical stress to be propagated. It uses a principle called the electron bounce phenomenon, that is simply the separation of charges in conductor materials under time varying magnetic fields. For this a pulse is applied and is compressed during the collapse the field in its coils.
Let me know what you think!

It involves the EbP Electron Bounce Phenomenon(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226) and Electron Clustering.

If there are few members who can not access the ionizationx site I would post the thread here if required.

Cheers!!!

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 18th, 2012, 02:57 AM
This is the best example what the VIC is doing at both sides of the exciters!!

What do you think how much voltage is needed doing this?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: ~Russ on August 18th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 18th, 2012, 02:57 AM
This is the best example what the VIC is doing at both sides of the exciters!!

What do you think how much voltage is needed doing this?

Br,
Webmug
not much... you'd be surprised. ~russ
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 18th, 2012, 03:28 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on August 18th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 18th, 2012, 02:57 AM
This is the best example what the VIC is doing at both sides of the exciters!!

What do you think how much voltage is needed doing this?

Br,
Webmug
not much... you'd be surprised. ~russ
Exactly!!! :D
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sharky on August 20th, 2012, 05:32 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 15th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I'm posting this message here to lead you to ionizationx.com because I don't want to post a copy of a thread twice.

This could be the working principle of the Resonance VIC transformer and also the Injector VIC unit since it is a follow up improved version.
Quote from http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23224.html#msg23224
The VIC is a system for restricting the flow of amperes while allowing voltage electrical stress to be propagated. It uses a principle called the electron bounce phenomenon, that is simply the separation of charges in conductor materials under time varying magnetic fields. For this a pulse is applied and is compressed during the collapse the field in its coils.
Let me know what you think!

It involves the EbP Electron Bounce Phenomenon(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226) and Electron Clustering.

If there are few members who can not access the ionizationx site I would post the thread here if required.

Cheers!!!

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,
Your results are very interesting indeed, the scope shots where you do not have the wfc connected seem almost perfect step charging images. You state that when you connect the wfc that the signal is not at all there anymore but could you post it anyways?

Allthough i have quite some electrical engineering knowlegde some things are difficult for me to grasp (guess happens to all of us sometimes :cool: ). Could you try to enlighten me a bit on what exactly triggers the electron bounce phenomena? I do understand why it could trigger amp restriction but i do not understand what makes the copper ions and electrons cluster on opposite sides of the coil? As far as my knowlegde reaches the only resistance to amp flow was the actual copper wire resistance itself. Do you know of any, non-meyer, information source about the ebp in inductive coils?

Thank you,
Sharky
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 21st, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 20th, 2012, 05:32 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 15th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I'm posting this message here to lead you to ionizationx.com because I don't want to post a copy of a thread twice.

This could be the working principle of the Resonance VIC transformer and also the Injector VIC unit since it is a follow up improved version.
Quote from http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23224.html#msg23224
The VIC is a system for restricting the flow of amperes while allowing voltage electrical stress to be propagated. It uses a principle called the electron bounce phenomenon, that is simply the separation of charges in conductor materials under time varying magnetic fields. For this a pulse is applied and is compressed during the collapse the field in its coils.
Let me know what you think!

It involves the EbP Electron Bounce Phenomenon(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226) and Electron Clustering.

If there are few members who can not access the ionizationx site I would post the thread here if required.

Cheers!!!

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,
Your results are very interesting indeed, the scope shots where you do not have the wfc connected seem almost perfect step charging images. You state that when you connect the wfc that the signal is not at all there anymore but could you post it anyways?

Allthough i have quite some electrical engineering knowlegde some things are difficult for me to grasp (guess happens to all of us sometimes :cool: ). Could you try to enlighten me a bit on what exactly triggers the electron bounce phenomena? I do understand why it could trigger amp restriction but i do not understand what makes the copper ions and electrons cluster on opposite sides of the coil? As far as my knowlegde reaches the only resistance to amp flow was the actual copper wire resistance itself. Do you know of any, non-meyer, information source about the ebp in inductive coils?

Thank you,
Sharky
Hi Sharky,

I try and make a couple of more scope shots.

At this moment I can not find this EbP exactly explained used by Meyer in other sources found on the Internet.

But maybe this could help:
http://www.opamp-electronics.com/tutorials/static_electricity_1_01_01.htm or "single fluid theory"

Electrons and Ben Franklin

Ben Franklin's "single fluid theory" showed that
a given body possessing a normal amount of
electric fluid was called neutral. During the
process of charging, the fluid was transferred
from one body to the other; the body with the
deficiency being charged minus and the body
with the excess charged plus . But no fluid is
lost. Ben's "single fluid theory" led to the
electron theory in 1900: electrons move about
conductors much as a fluid might move.

CURRENT ELECTRICITY IS THE OPPOSITE OF STATIC ELECTRICITY? Wrong.
"Static Electricity" appears whenever the negative charges within matter are separated from the positive charges. "Current" appears whenever the negative charges within matter are made to flow through the positive charges (or when positive flows through negative.) "Static" and "Current" are two separate kinds of events, they are not opposites.

"Static" is a separation; it is a stretching-apart, and it really has little to do with anything remaining static or stationary.

"Current" is a flowing motion. It has little to do with the separation of opposite charges.

"Static electricity" was misnamed, and it really should be called "charge separation" or maybe "stretched" or "pressurized" electricity. Since stretch is not the opposite of flow, Static is not the opposite of Current. And athough electric current really exists and electric charge really exists, there is no such material as either "current electricity" or "static electricity." See http://amasci.com/miscon/curstat2.html on this topic.
Quote
Magnetic Field Coupling (71) of Figure (7-9) entering into and passing through Secondary Coil-winding (52) of Figure (7-8) causes and produces copper ions (643a xxx 643n) (Positive Charged atoms 542a xxx 542n having missing electrons) when moving external electromagnetic field strength (71a xxx 7In) is sufficient enough to dislodge electromagnetically charged electrons (64Ia xxx 64In) from copper atoms making up copper wire material (52). Collectively, the resultant positive electrical charged copper ions (642a xxx 642n) added together produces Positive Voltage Potential (629) being electrically applied to choke-coil (56); whereas, the "Liberated" negative electrical charged electrons (64Ia xxx 64In) added together provides Negative Voltage Potential (631) to the opposite end of Secondary Wire (52) being electrically connected to choke coil (62). Once Secondary Coil-winding (52) is de-energized by the removal (collapsing magnetic field during pulse off-time T2 of external Magnetic Field (71), the dislodged electrons (641a xx 641n) return to positive charged copper ions (642a xx 642n) ... terminating and switching off opposite voltage potential (629 - 631) when positive electrical state of the copper atoms changes back to net electrical charge of zero. Sustaining and maintaining the resultant induced Voltage Potential (Vo - Vn) without "Electron Discharged" (inhibiting electron flow) through Choke Coil (62) while, at the same time, inhibiting (preventing) any additional or other electrons from entering into Secondary copper wire-zone (52) by way of Choke Coil (56) is herein called "Electron Bounce Phenomenon" (EbP), as illustrated in (700) of Figure (7-9).
Quote
Note 1) The Electron Inhibiting Effect (631) of Figure (7-6) to cause "Electron Clustering" (Grouping/collecting negative charged particles at a given point) (700) of Figure (7-9) to produce ''Negative Voltage Potential" ( B- ) at one side of Water Gap (Cp) of Figure (7-8) is accomplished by low electrical power input (Tab 38) when Choke-Coil (62) of Figure (7-1) magnetic field (FL2) (690) of Figure (7-8) during pulse on-time (49) impede "Electron-Flow" since electron mass is composed of electromagnetic matter which interacts with magnetic field strength (FL2). Capacitance Charging Effect (628) prevents amp influxing away from Water Gap (Cp) in a similar manner ... producing "Electrical Stress" (SS' - RR') (B+/B-) across Water Gap (Cp) since both Choke-Coils (56/62) conducts voltage potential (Negative or Positive) during pulsing operations.
Br,
Webmug

Title: advanced skills in mathematics needed!
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 29th, 2012, 06:28 AM
Quote from Webmug on July 29th, 2012, 03:20 AM
Quote from Webmug on July 28th, 2012, 01:12 PM
The major problem is where to tune into. If this is the self capacitance of a coil or total coils capacitance or WFC capacitance?

Inductance / capacitance between diode choke POS and WFC.

:exclamation: My findings of the operation of the VIC (which is based on radar PFN [Pulse Forming Network] modulators) :exclamation:

Resonance on the secondary coil is the key to have AC maximum voltage swing and use this signal as a charger component (voltage amplitude and resonance frequency).
(Stan stated if you change the windings count of the secondary / primary you can create more voltage potential) This said, alters the resonance frequency so a PLL is required to maintain resonance conditions. Think about this: why is the feedback coil between the primary and secondary coil! If secondary is on resonance it is voltage amplitude independent.

Then the choke and WFC must be tuned on the charger signal to establish resonant charging. It can be DC resonant charging. AC resonant charging is also possible, but this is even more difficult!

Stan wanted minimum amps and maximum voltage potential to develop at the exciters (and restricting amps using opposite chokes, voltage) and this can only be done using resonant charging by means of a charging frequency on resonance. If you read this it's difficult to understand but there are two resonance circuits connected to each other on the same or double tuned frequency.

He also is using a blocking diode so AC resonant charging is more likely. Stan states: the blocking diode prevent shorting the secondary coil and prevents discharging the WFC and creates a double pulse from the choke due the magnetic coupling.
If this is so, a blocking diode is needed to prevent a short when the gate switch(no signal) disable the charging signal and POS resonant choke discharges into the WFC. The NEG choke mirrors the POS choke (equal but opposite voltage) by using the magnetic field and restricts amps in the process.

Conditions for tuning the coils / capacitance / inductance and the WFC water type must be maintained. These are altered by the type of core inserted in the VIC transformer. If the chokes are connected to the secondary coil all conditions are changed because of the core coupling.

If the conditions are matched/tuned on the secondary charger signal, we can tune the gate for resonant charging (voltage potential) and charge the WFC with UNIPOLAR PULSES (discharging the chokes).

"The simplest type of a-c inductance charging is a-c resonant charging, in which the charging circuit is tuned to resonance at the impressed a-c frequency.

The network voltage reaches a maximum value when the impressed sinusoidal voltage is passing through zero. The pulses therefore occur whenever the impressed voltage is zero. Although the pulse recurrence frequency is usually equal to the impressed a-c frequency, it is sometimes double the impressed frequency, in which case there is one pulse for each half cycle of the applied-voltage wave. The disadvantage of a-c resonant charging is that the voltage across the network continues to build up if the switch misses one or several pulses.”

Here PULSE is read as a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

So if the switch misses several pulses the voltage continues to build up and charges the WFC to a point what the components can handle.

The PULSE frequency on the primary coil is in phase with the other coils.

Cheers!

Br,
Webmug
The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief(http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Patents/S.Meyer-The%20Birth%20of%20New%20Technology.pdf)

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 1-2: Re:Hydrogen Fracturing Process Memo WFC 420 :exclamation:

"...The Inductor( C ) takes on or becomes an Modulator Inductor which steps up an oscillation of an given charging frequency with effective capacitance of an pulse-forming network in order to charge the voltage zones (E/E2) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input.

The Inductance ( C ) and Capacitance ( ER ) properties of the LC circuit is therefore "tuned" to resonance at a certain frequency. The Resonant Frequency can be raised or lowered by changing the inductance and/or the capacitance values. The established resonant frequency is, of course, independent of voltage amplitude..."

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 3-7: Re:WFC Hydrogen Gas Management System Memo WFC 422 DA :exclamation:

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 7-3: RE: VIC Matrix Circuit Memo WFC 426 :exclamation:
"..pulse forming network (64a xxx 64n) of Figure ( 7 -1 ) as to ( 600 ) of Figure ( 6-3 ) in order to charge Voltage Zones ( E9/E10 ) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input.."

Fig.7-5 660 : Inductance Charging Effect

"a-c resonance charging" Page 19. in "line-type-radar-modulators-49_Brown.pdf"

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3818#pid3818
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3846#pid3846

Page 96.
A Textbook of Radar: A Collective Work by the Staff of the Radiophysics Laboratory, C. S. I. R. O., Australia(http://books.google.nl/books?id=K4I8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA92&dq=resonant+charging&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=7JLXT_24E8bY8AO5qtyrAw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=resonant%20charging&f=false)

Br,
Webmug
For the Pulse Forming Network I have found a valuable source for calculation of multiple capacitor/inductor configurations as used inside the VIC. the whole book is a good compilation of this type of technology from the radar scene.

each page can be downloaded as separate pdf, but after 7 pages  you must pause for 5 minutes otherwise download gets locked for 5 or more minutes.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?view=image;size=100;id=mdp.39015017570121;page=root;seq=196;num=176

Stan Meyer used a line type pulser type A.

Unfortunately I can´t calculate the formulas lacking sufficient mathematic skills :-(

Maybe it´s possible to use Mathlab, Maple or Mathematica to solve those sequences of calculations.

My idea is to set up 3 equations from the book as an example how to solve using real world parameters and then the following equations can be processed in a similar way ...

once we have started that way a new thread should be opened for Stan Meyer Calculations.

Somewhere out there at the forum someone who can give me a starting point?

Any suggestions welcome!

For all people feeling in the comfort zone reading those equations here is another good example for a simulation/calculation scheme: http://www.alphaomegapt.com/pdf%20files/1989%20Repetitive%20PFN%20Design.PDF
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 30th, 2012, 09:46 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 20th, 2012, 05:32 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 15th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I'm posting this message here to lead you to ionizationx.com because I don't want to post a copy of a thread twice.

This could be the working principle of the Resonance VIC transformer and also the Injector VIC unit since it is a follow up improved version.
Quote from http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23224.html#msg23224
The VIC is a system for restricting the flow of amperes while allowing voltage electrical stress to be propagated. It uses a principle called the electron bounce phenomenon, that is simply the separation of charges in conductor materials under time varying magnetic fields. For this a pulse is applied and is compressed during the collapse the field in its coils.
Let me know what you think!

It involves the EbP Electron Bounce Phenomenon(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226) and Electron Clustering.

If there are few members who can not access the ionizationx site I would post the thread here if required.

Cheers!!!

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,
Your results are very interesting indeed, the scope shots where you do not have the wfc connected seem almost perfect step charging images. You state that when you connect the wfc that the signal is not at all there anymore but could you post it anyways?

Allthough i have quite some electrical engineering knowlegde some things are difficult for me to grasp (guess happens to all of us sometimes :cool: ). Could you try to enlighten me a bit on what exactly triggers the electron bounce phenomena? I do understand why it could trigger amp restriction but i do not understand what makes the copper ions and electrons cluster on opposite sides of the coil? As far as my knowlegde reaches the only resistance to amp flow was the actual copper wire resistance itself. Do you know of any, non-meyer, information source about the ebp in inductive coils?

Thank you,
Sharky
Sharky,

Here are my scope shots!

First the open circuit measured;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2130)

positive choke B+ connected to WFC plate, B- open;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2131)

negative choke B- connected to WFC plate, B+ open;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2132)

chokes connected to both B+ and B- connected to WFC;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2133)

PULSE on the same frequency and GATE duty cycle and period are fixed except when the WFC is connected frequency is lower.

Regards
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on August 31st, 2012, 09:46 AM
Hi,

Made this updated diagram visualizing the 180 degrees out of phase.
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?thumbnail=2145)

Br,
Webmug
Title: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 05:18 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
Interesting!

Just a question:
Is the WFC a nonlinear capacitor? What are the parameters making it nonlinear on a fixed frequency?

Regards!
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 07:06 AM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 05:18 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
Interesting!

Just a question:
Is the WFC a nonlinear capacitor? What are the parameters making it nonlinear on a fixed frequency?

Regards!
The idea came up somewhere here in the forum.

my own observations show that a charged cell immediately loses charge down to 2V. these 2V remain for some time like in a battery.

Taking into account experimental results described in the book "High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water" ISBN 978-1-934939-00-0 showing that dielectric breakdown for high voltage takes place after less than  a milisecond the wfc definitely shows some non-linear behaviour as a capacitor.

to answer your question: one parameter is voltage level and the other parameter is time.

now take into account that also the vic with it´s bifilar wound chokes has parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances (bifilar binding of positive and negative path set up a type 3 PFN!) you can imagine complex dynamics during pulsing condition.

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 07:06 AM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 05:18 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
Interesting!

Just a question:
Is the WFC a nonlinear capacitor? What are the parameters making it nonlinear on a fixed frequency?

Regards!
The idea came up somewhere here in the forum.

my own observations show that a charged cell immediately loses charge down to 2V. these 2V remain for some time like in a battery.

Taking into account experimental results described in the book "High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water" ISBN 978-1-934939-00-0 showing that dielectric breakdown for high voltage takes place after less than  a milisecond the wfc definitely shows some non-linear behaviour as a capacitor.

to answer your question: one parameter is voltage level and the other parameter is time.

now take into account that also the vic with it´s bifilar wound chokes has parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances (bifilar binding of positive and negative path set up a type 3 PFN!) you can imagine complex dynamics during pulsing condition.
2 more sources for the effect:

http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/jap77.pdf
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 10:10 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 07:06 AM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 05:18 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
Interesting!

Just a question:
Is the WFC a nonlinear capacitor? What are the parameters making it nonlinear on a fixed frequency?

Regards!
The idea came up somewhere here in the forum.

my own observations show that a charged cell immediately loses charge down to 2V. these 2V remain for some time like in a battery.

Taking into account experimental results described in the book "High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water" ISBN 978-1-934939-00-0 showing that dielectric breakdown for high voltage takes place after less than  a milisecond the wfc definitely shows some non-linear behaviour as a capacitor.

to answer your question: one parameter is voltage level and the other parameter is time.

now take into account that also the vic with it´s bifilar wound chokes has parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances (bifilar binding of positive and negative path set up a type 3 PFN!) you can imagine complex dynamics during pulsing condition.
2 more sources for the effect:

http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/jap77.pdf
http://www.jrossmacdonald.com/jrmpubs/020NonlinearCapacitors.pdf

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: adys15 on September 3rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 07:06 AM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 05:18 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
Interesting!

Just a question:
Is the WFC a nonlinear capacitor? What are the parameters making it nonlinear on a fixed frequency?

Regards!
The idea came up somewhere here in the forum.

my own observations show that a charged cell immediately loses charge down to 2V. these 2V remain for some time like in a battery.

Taking into account experimental results described in the book "High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water" ISBN 978-1-934939-00-0 showing that dielectric breakdown for high voltage takes place after less than  a milisecond the wfc definitely shows some non-linear behaviour as a capacitor.

to answer your question: one parameter is voltage level and the other parameter is time.

now take into account that also the vic with it´s bifilar wound chokes has parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances (bifilar binding of positive and negative path set up a type 3 PFN!) you can imagine complex dynamics during pulsing condition.
High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water'' do you have this book????????
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 12:07 PM
Quote from adys15 on September 3rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 07:06 AM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 05:18 AM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
Interesting!

Just a question:
Is the WFC a nonlinear capacitor? What are the parameters making it nonlinear on a fixed frequency?

Regards!
The idea came up somewhere here in the forum.

my own observations show that a charged cell immediately loses charge down to 2V. these 2V remain for some time like in a battery.

Taking into account experimental results described in the book "High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water" ISBN 978-1-934939-00-0 showing that dielectric breakdown for high voltage takes place after less than  a milisecond the wfc definitely shows some non-linear behaviour as a capacitor.

to answer your question: one parameter is voltage level and the other parameter is time.

now take into account that also the vic with it´s bifilar wound chokes has parasitic capacitances and parasitic inductances (bifilar binding of positive and negative path set up a type 3 PFN!) you can imagine complex dynamics during pulsing condition.
High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water'' do you have this book????????
No I don't have this book.

Regards!
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 12:09 PM
Quote from adys15 on September 3rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water'' do you have this book????????
yes I do.

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf

Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?
Quote
On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.
Regards
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf

Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?

On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.

Regards
"My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR."

how comes? the article only deals with ferroelectric ceramic capacitors. normal capacitors don´t show those effects.

Yes, I assume there shall be some special effect thru the WFC and/or the VIC.

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 02:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf

Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?

On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.

Regards
"My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR."

how comes? the article only deals with ferroelectric ceramic capacitors. normal capacitors don´t show those effects.

Yes, I assume there shall be some special effect thru the WFC and/or the VIC.
Depends how you look at them :cool:: All capacitors are affected by Temperature, Gravity Waves and other Environmental factors depending on their physical structure.

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 02:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 02:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf

Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?

On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.

Regards
"My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR."

how comes? the article only deals with ferroelectric ceramic capacitors. normal capacitors don´t show those effects.

Yes, I assume there shall be some special effect thru the WFC and/or the VIC.
Depends how you look at them :cool:: All capacitors are affected by Temperature, Gravity Waves and other Environmental factors depending on their physical structure.
ok, but to be relevant non-linear effect must show within the same time scale like the oscillation.

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 02:13 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 02:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 02:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM
Digging into the idea that the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor this brand new publication may be useful:

http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf

to my opinion it´s all about timing and exact parameter matching.

there are millions of alternatives but to tune into the right parameter conditions complex calculations seem to be the way to go ...
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf

Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?

On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.

Regards
"My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR."

how comes? the article only deals with ferroelectric ceramic capacitors. normal capacitors don´t show those effects.

Yes, I assume there shall be some special effect thru the WFC and/or the VIC.
Depends how you look at them :cool:: All capacitors are affected by Temperature, Gravity Waves and other Environmental factors depending on their physical structure.
ok, but to be relevant non-linear effect must show within the same time scale like the oscillation.
Could be. So if the WFC is non-linear there must be a square S-curve of hysteresis.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 03:34 PM
Quote from valyonpz1 on September 3rd, 2012, 03:08 PM
What is the secret? Don't understand the insulation layer on the primary coil. Chokes I follow.

What is the voltage amplitude you are generating. Don't see opposite but equal voltages at B+ and B-.

Are you producing any gas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 3rd, 2012, 09:42 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 07:06 AM
Taking into account experimental results described in the book "High-Voltage electrical breakdown of water" ISBN 978-1-934939-00-0 showing that dielectric breakdown for high voltage takes place after less than  a milisecond the wfc definitely shows some non-linear behaviour as a capacitor.
A 0.25 millisecond timeframe until dielectric breakdown means that any frequency > 2 kHz at 50% duty cycle obeys the dielectric barrier of water so that there should be no breakdown condition and water resistance can be assumed to be in the Megohm range.
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Muxar on September 4th, 2012, 02:44 PM
http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm
Maybe could help giving some ideas...
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 5th, 2012, 09:27 AM

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 5th, 2012, 01:06 PM
Quote from geenee on September 5th, 2012, 09:27 AM

thanks
geenee
and here another good one explaining water dielectric and showing ease of capacitance calculation:

the polarization reminds me to the dipole magnetization in a ferromagnetic core.

Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Webmug on September 6th, 2012, 12:36 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 02:13 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 02:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 02:01 PM
Quote from bussi04 on September 3rd, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from Webmug on September 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.

http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf

Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?

On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.

Regards
"My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR."

how comes? the article only deals with ferroelectric ceramic capacitors. normal capacitors don´t show those effects.

Yes, I assume there shall be some special effect thru the WFC and/or the VIC.
Depends how you look at them :cool:: All capacitors are affected by Temperature, Gravity Waves and other Environmental factors depending on their physical structure.
ok, but to be relevant non-linear effect must show within the same time scale like the oscillation.
Could be. So if the WFC is non-linear there must be a square S-curve of hysteresis.
Quote
Capacitance is usually defined as the stored charge between two conducting surfaces separated by a dielectric divided by the voltage between the surfaces.  Another definition is the rate of change of the stored charge or surface charge (σ) divided by the rate of change of the voltage between the surfaces or the electric surface potential (ψ).  The latter is called the "differential capacitance," but usually the stored charge is directly proportional to the voltage, making the capacitances given by the two definitions equal.

This type of differential capacitance may be called "parallel plate capacitance," after the usual form of the capacitor.  However, the term is meaningful when applied to any two conducting bodies such as spheres, and not necessarily ones of the same size, for example, the elevated terminals of a Tesla wireless system and the earth.  These are widely spaced insulated conducting bodies positioned over a spherically conducting ground plane.[3]

"The differential capacitance between the spheres is obtained by assuming opposite charges ±q on them. . . ." [4]

Another form of differential capacitance refers to single isolated conducting bodies. It is usually discussed in books under the topic of "electrostatics."  This capacitance is best defined as the rate of change of charge stored in the body divided by the rate of change of the potential of the body.  The definition of the absolute potential of the body depends on what is selected as a reference.  This is sometimes referred to as the "self-capacitance" of a body.  If the body is a conducting sphere, the self-capacitance is proportional to its radius, and is roughly 1pF per centimetre of radius.
The WFC has a TUBE and ROD as exciter plates so there must be "differential capacitance". It has two unequal double layers.

Regards
Title: RE: nonlinear capacitor yields extra energy
Post by: Gunther Rattay on September 7th, 2012, 10:37 AM
Quote from Webmug on September 6th, 2012, 12:36 PM
The WFC has a TUBE and ROD as exciter plates so there must be "differential capacitance". It has two unequal double layers.

Regards
here you are for the cylindric shape:

the other lectures of that guy are also interesting.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on September 20th, 2012, 06:48 AM
This is my proposal to test a new "VIC" and realize the phenomenon of placing high voltage without current in the cell.
Following the circuit diagram, you will notice a minimal difference with the patent Meyer, however changes the whole outcome:
At first glance, the circuit is open (or no circuit) because there is no loop in the transformer secondary cell and this alone, so let's see, when the voltage is positive at the top of the transformer with respect to ground, the diode conducts through the choke to the anode of the cell (there is a minimum charge, since water is mass) and when reversing the voltage transformer, passes through the other choke drive to the cathode of the cell. So we have high positive (the anode) and negative (the cathode), although not at the same time, so without current. (photo attached)
All have already seen, Leds and / or neons being driven this way, in the experiments of "Electron tief" where radio frequency is used and a dipole.
I believe we can take advantage flybacks without tripler (adjusted to about 2 or 3 kV.) And for the chokes, other two flybacks (mounted on a single core). In primary, a variable frequency generator, a driver FET, and a power adjustable voltage / current. And media monitoring circuit (probes, oscilloscope etc).
This is the Set-Up.
Hugs.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 20th, 2012, 08:06 AM
and i tested many high voltages with low current.and failed!!!nothing gas!!!

something i think "maybe we come to wrong way".cause =
1.Meyer use DC current high voltage but Where High voltage Diode????.i read the patents he use 1n1198=600v18amps
2.Agha Waqar Ahmad(recently success hho),he uses Meyer tech.use 12v to ac 110v and rectify to dc series LC, distill water no natural water or tap water.series LC is look like short circuit=0V and Max Amps but parallel LC look like open circuit(0Amps and a huge Voltages) when in resonant.i think "we need a huge amps without voltage.why??--->>Meyer said Series LC circuit". and many people success high gas output use low voltage about 3V and 200amps and low heat.but this not enough to make hho for run a car(1000cc need about 60-80LPM).when you try to find lowest voltage that can make bubble,you will get stuck at 3V.how to use 1 voltage or 0.5 voltage with 500 amps(250W)??? or 0.1 voltage with 2500Amps????----->>Series LC circuit ONLY!!!!

about plasma injector??? why work??  when short capacitor voltage drop to minimum nearly 0 Voltage amps will jump to many many amps in few second.

let change direction and close look in Series LC(high amps=short circuit).

thanks
geenee
PS.why use high voltage??? if need to charge High farad 400v capacitor to make high joule.you have two ways.
1. use 400v and many amps like 20++ amps.--->>big transformer big copper many amps power supply
2. use 10kv and littles amps ------>>use fuji DC HV little circuit and 3v 1.5v battery
what's the best way???--> 2. and need DC HV to make dielectric break down of water too.

i test about water many experiments.with the purest water in the test high voltage why short circuit(water is the best dielectric).because AC high voltage and water is true capacitor.but DC High voltage is not short but short in alternate DC high voltage.Oh!!!this way---> RL Low pass filter!!!!!choke is RL low pass to make perfect stable DC HV.then now stable dc cannot pass the water==low amps.

why connect WFC in series???RC low pass filter!!!!for make stable DC HV.why??in water,i dont know R is front? or C is front?if connect in series it will be low pass -->high pass-->low pass -->>high pass.... low high high low.... then it now stable smooth dc hv(smooth line dc and not short circuit).
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on September 20th, 2012, 09:31 AM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 08:06 AM
and i tested many high voltages with low current.and failed!!!nothing gas!!!

something i think "maybe we come to wrong way".cause =
1.Meyer use DC current high voltage but Where High voltage Diode????.i read the patents he use 1n1198=600v18amps
2.Agha Waqar Ahmad(recently success hho),he uses Meyer tech.use 12v to ac 110v and rectify to dc series LC, distill water no natural water or tap water.series LC is look like short circuit=0V and Max Amps but parallel LC look like open circuit(0Amps and a huge Voltages) when in resonant.i think "we need a huge amps without voltage.why??--->>Meyer said Series LC circuit". and many people success high gas output use low voltage about 3V and 200amps and low heat.but this not enough to make hho for run a car(1000cc need about 160-200LPM).when you try to find lowest voltage that can make bubble,you will get stuck at 3V.how to use 1 voltage or 0.5 voltage with 500 amps(250W)??? or 0.1 voltage with 2500Amps????----->>Series LC circuit ONLY!!!!

about plasma injector??? why work??  when short capacitor voltage drop to minimum nearly 0 Voltage amps will jump to many many amps in few second.

let change direction and close look in Series LC(high amps=short circuit).

thanks
geenee
PS.why use high voltage??? if use need to charge High farad 400v capacitor to make high joule.you have two ways.
1. use 400v and many amps like 20++ amps.--->>big transformer big copper many amps power supply
2. use 10kv and littles amps ------>>use fuji DC HV circuit and 3v 1.5v battery
what's the best way???
If that's what you want, Geene, then I recommend you follow the steps of Sebosfato. He proposed a system based entirely on high current and low voltage. I believe we must have high efficiency (have to use eltrolito), as predicted by Faraday. It uses a parallel LC fed with pulses of high voltage and cell gets a leg of "C", through a rectifier bridge (this is my adaptation. In it, he used two diodes and two cells).
But LC parallel, low current and high voltage? Yes, but between L and C, a large current therefore L has to be wired thick, and C for HV good quality. The pic of a leg-up, the FB is for the PLL.

I for my part, I'll still run out attempting to replicate Meyer, only with tension and almost no current. If you paid attention in my last drawing, notice that this time, the problem was solved the short circuit, which always killed the high voltage.

Do not even read the document that you sent, but no diagrams.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 20th, 2012, 05:30 PM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 08:06 AM
and i tested many high voltages with low current.and failed!!!nothing gas!!!

something i think "maybe we come to wrong way".cause =
1.Meyer use DC current high voltage but Where High voltage Diode????.i read the patents he use 1n1198=600v18amps
2.Agha Waqar Ahmad(recently success hho),he uses Meyer tech.use 12v to ac 110v and rectify to dc series LC, distill water no natural water or tap water.series LC is look like short circuit=0V and Max Amps but parallel LC look like open circuit(0Amps and a huge Voltages) when in resonant.i think "we need a huge amps without voltage.why??--->>Meyer said Series LC circuit". and many people success high gas output use low voltage about 3V and 200amps and low heat.but this not enough to make hho for run a car(1000cc need about 60-80LPM).when you try to find lowest voltage that can make bubble,you will get stuck at 3V.how to use 1 voltage or 0.5 voltage with 500 amps(250W)??? or 0.1 voltage with 2500Amps????----->>Series LC circuit ONLY!!!!

about plasma injector??? why work??  when short capacitor voltage drop to minimum nearly 0 Voltage amps will jump to many many amps in few second.

let change direction and close look in Series LC(high amps=short circuit).

thanks
geenee
PS.why use high voltage??? if need to charge High farad 400v capacitor to make high joule.you have two ways.
1. use 400v and many amps like 20++ amps.--->>big transformer big copper many amps power supply
2. use 10kv and littles amps ------>>use fuji DC HV little circuit and 3v 1.5v battery
what's the best way???--> 2. and need DC HV to make dielectric break down of water too.

i test about water many experiments.with the purest water in the test high voltage why short circuit(water is the best dielectric).because AC high voltage and water is true capacitor.but DC High voltage is not short but short in alternate DC high voltage.Oh!!!this way---> RL Low pass filter!!!!!choke is RL low pass to make perfect stable DC HV.then now stable dc cannot pass the water==low amps.

why connect WFC in series???RC low pass filter!!!!for make stable DC HV.why??in water,i dont know R is front? or C is front?if connect in series it will be low pass -->high pass-->low pass -->>high pass.... low high high low.... then it now stable smooth dc hv(smooth line dc and not short circuit).
PDF file that great idea,lets to read it.

we need to learn about water.
1.Is water dielectric?is real?no short circuit is real??? by testing the purest water, dc, ac, hv dc, hv ac, high frequency, low frequency, 0 frequency.
2.Is  water a real capacitor?by testing two plates of metal and fill water in a plastic bag.put the bag in middle of two plates and use LCR meter to count capacitance.

thanks
geenee

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on September 20th, 2012, 05:59 PM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 05:30 PM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 08:06 AM
and i tested many high voltages with low current.and failed!!!nothing gas!!!

something i think "maybe we come to wrong way".cause =
1.Meyer use DC current high voltage but Where High voltage Diode????.i read the patents he use 1n1198=600v18amps
2.Agha Waqar Ahmad(recently success hho),he uses Meyer tech.use 12v to ac 110v and rectify to dc series LC, distill water no natural water or tap water.series LC is look like short circuit=0V and Max Amps but parallel LC look like open circuit(0Amps and a huge Voltages) when in resonant.i think "we need a huge amps without voltage.why??--->>Meyer said Series LC circuit". and many people success high gas output use low voltage about 3V and 200amps and low heat.but this not enough to make hho for run a car(1000cc need about 60-80LPM).when you try to find lowest voltage that can make bubble,you will get stuck at 3V.how to use 1 voltage or 0.5 voltage with 500 amps(250W)??? or 0.1 voltage with 2500Amps????----->>Series LC circuit ONLY!!!!

about plasma injector??? why work??  when short capacitor voltage drop to minimum nearly 0 Voltage amps will jump to many many amps in few second.

let change direction and close look in Series LC(high amps=short circuit).

thanks
geenee
PS.why use high voltage??? if need to charge High farad 400v capacitor to make high joule.you have two ways.
1. use 400v and many amps like 20++ amps.--->>big transformer big copper many amps power supply
2. use 10kv and littles amps ------>>use fuji DC HV little circuit and 3v 1.5v battery
what's the best way???--> 2. and need DC HV to make dielectric break down of water too.

i test about water many experiments.with the purest water in the test high voltage why short circuit(water is the best dielectric).because AC high voltage and water is true capacitor.but DC High voltage is not short but short in alternate DC high voltage.Oh!!!this way---> RL Low pass filter!!!!!choke is RL low pass to make perfect stable DC HV.then now stable dc cannot pass the water==low amps.

why connect WFC in series???RC low pass filter!!!!for make stable DC HV.why??in water,i dont know R is front? or C is front?if connect in series it will be low pass -->high pass-->low pass -->>high pass.... low high high low.... then it now stable smooth dc hv(smooth line dc and not short circuit).
PDF file that great idea,lets to read it.

we need to learn about water.
1.Is water dielectric?is real?no short circuit is real??? by testing the purest water, dc, ac, hv dc, hv ac, high frequency, low frequency, 0 frequency.
2.Is  water a real capacitor?by testing two plates of metal and fill water in a plastic bag.put the bag in middle of two plates and use LCR meter to count capacitance.

thanks
geenee
Very good "pdf", but no diagram.
I do not understand: It seems that uses an inverter, 110V ac generates, and bridge rectifier cell with distilled water only.
Where is the inductor? Before or after the bridge?
Thank you.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
i watched  many Agha Waqar's's videos.i had problems in English and Pakistan's English accent.i found pdf on wiki(search = Agha Waqar). i need diagram too but he didn't show the circuit, coil, bridge diode, inverter.i saw in his video,has 4 wires connect to wfc, inside the car has big yellow wire, safety bubble water flash back, other videos i saw Agha Waqar's assitant made wfc from old battery.

i thinks he keep this secret.but i think this's all Meyer tech.i will try search that you ask.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=661  --> about Agha Waqar 's videos

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
i watched  many Agha Waqar's's videos.i had problems in English and Pakistan's English accent.i found pdf on wiki(search = Agha Waqar). i need diagram too but he didn't show the circuit, coil, bridge diode, inverter.i saw in his video,has 4 wires connect to wfc, inside the car has big yellow wire, safety bubble water flash back, other videos i saw Agha Waqar's assitant made wfc from old battery.

i thinks he keep this secret.but i think this's all Meyer tech.i will try search that you ask.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=661  --> about Agha Waqar 's videos

thanks
geenee
Seen the videos!not much of a proof he shows just one jar and one bubbler.To stick a hose in the engine and put people behind the wheel is not a proof,why does not pull the hose out to see the engine stops...One more thing i saw a methane gas tank behind,from what i know the gpl gas sistem conects trough the air inlet of the engine,not trough the fuel inlet.What about the hho management...?what happens with his jar when the car is iddling if the jar  produces lets say 30 lpm how do you control that flow?Stan has 2big boxes full with electronics and this guy shows a little jar and a hose.Even with resonance that he is talking about you need more tubes/cells to prodece enough gas to even idle a car....Untill i don't see some electronics i think is a froud and looking to get his people out of the poverty and to get noticet on media....
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 21st, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
i watched  many Agha Waqar's's videos.i had problems in English and Pakistan's English accent.i found pdf on wiki(search = Agha Waqar). i need diagram too but he didn't show the circuit, coil, bridge diode, inverter.i saw in his video,has 4 wires connect to wfc, inside the car has big yellow wire, safety bubble water flash back, other videos i saw Agha Waqar's assitant made wfc from old battery.

i thinks he keep this secret.but i think this's all Meyer tech.i will try search that you ask.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=661  --> about Agha Waqar 's videos

thanks
geenee
Seen the videos!not much of a proof he shows just one jar and one bubbler.To stick a hose in the engine and put people behind the wheel is not a proof,why does not pull the hose out to see the engine stops...One more thing i saw a methane gas tank behind,from what i know the gpl gas sistem conects trough the air inlet of the engine,not trough the fuel inlet.What about the hho management...?what happens with his jar when the car is iddling if the jar  produces lets say 30 lpm how do you control that flow?Stan has 2big boxes full with electronics and this guy shows a little jar and a hose.Even with resonance that he is talking about you need more tubes/cells to prodece enough gas to even idle a car....Untill i don't see some electronics i think is a froud and looking to get his people out of the poverty and to get noticet on media....
if you go to president and talk to him "here is success new energy".you must plan carefully??if you lie then you will arrest!!!!

picture i attached,it is inner tube of car tire. wfc--->inner tube-->water flash back arrestor or wfc-->water flash back arrestor--->inner tube

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 05:48 AM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
i watched  many Agha Waqar's's videos.i had problems in English and Pakistan's English accent.i found pdf on wiki(search = Agha Waqar). i need diagram too but he didn't show the circuit, coil, bridge diode, inverter.i saw in his video,has 4 wires connect to wfc, inside the car has big yellow wire, safety bubble water flash back, other videos i saw Agha Waqar's assitant made wfc from old battery.

i thinks he keep this secret.but i think this's all Meyer tech.i will try search that you ask.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=661  --> about Agha Waqar 's videos

thanks
geenee
Seen the videos!not much of a proof he shows just one jar and one bubbler.To stick a hose in the engine and put people behind the wheel is not a proof,why does not pull the hose out to see the engine stops...One more thing i saw a methane gas tank behind,from what i know the gpl gas sistem conects trough the air inlet of the engine,not trough the fuel inlet.What about the hho management...?what happens with his jar when the car is iddling if the jar  produces lets say 30 lpm how do you control that flow?Stan has 2big boxes full with electronics and this guy shows a little jar and a hose.Even with resonance that he is talking about you need more tubes/cells to prodece enough gas to even idle a car....Untill i don't see some electronics i think is a froud and looking to get his people out of the poverty and to get noticet on media....
if you go to president and talk to him "here is success new energy".you must plan carefully??if you lie then you will arrest!!!!

picture i attached,it is inner tube of cat tire. wfc--->inner tube-->water flash back arrestor or wfc-->water flash back arrestor--->inner tube

thanks
geenee
i saw that video too.what is this? a hho filled car  tire tube?for what?storage?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 21st, 2012, 10:45 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 05:48 AM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
i watched  many Agha Waqar's's videos.i had problems in English and Pakistan's English accent.i found pdf on wiki(search = Agha Waqar). i need diagram too but he didn't show the circuit, coil, bridge diode, inverter.i saw in his video,has 4 wires connect to wfc, inside the car has big yellow wire, safety bubble water flash back, other videos i saw Agha Waqar's assitant made wfc from old battery.

i thinks he keep this secret.but i think this's all Meyer tech.i will try search that you ask.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=661  --> about Agha Waqar 's videos

thanks
geenee
Seen the videos!not much of a proof he shows just one jar and one bubbler.To stick a hose in the engine and put people behind the wheel is not a proof,why does not pull the hose out to see the engine stops...One more thing i saw a methane gas tank behind,from what i know the gpl gas sistem conects trough the air inlet of the engine,not trough the fuel inlet.What about the hho management...?what happens with his jar when the car is iddling if the jar  produces lets say 30 lpm how do you control that flow?Stan has 2big boxes full with electronics and this guy shows a little jar and a hose.Even with resonance that he is talking about you need more tubes/cells to prodece enough gas to even idle a car....Untill i don't see some electronics i think is a froud and looking to get his people out of the poverty and to get noticet on media....
if you go to president and talk to him "here is success new energy".you must plan carefully??if you lie then you will arrest!!!!

picture i attached,it is inner tube of car tire. wfc--->inner tube-->water flash back arrestor or wfc-->water flash back arrestor--->inner tube

thanks
geenee
i saw that video too.what is this? a hho filled car  tire tube?for what?storage?
i thinks " low cost storage!!!- -* ".

i already tested VIC's Meyer with 230VAC-rms 50hz of my country(Thailand).my set up is 2 little plates of SS, distill water, 1 diode(1000v50a) 2 choke(from primary of MOT), cfl bulb 13w in series with secondary choke to see amps draw.
result is

1.VIC restrict amps flow 100% because stable dc cannot pass water capacitor.first - cfl light up and second - became dark.mean like charge capacitor when full with stop amps flow.

2.have a bubble in middle plates.this is distill water!!!!!!!i'm very happy this.i never make bubble by distill water.

that proof my opinion.RL low pass filter to make stable DC(straight line DC).stable dc cannot pass distill water.but this test use 50hz frequency of home power.i think resonant will improve gas and more voltage will good.

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on September 21st, 2012, 04:05 PM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 10:45 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 05:48 AM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
Quote from geenee on September 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
i watched  many Agha Waqar's's videos.i had problems in English and Pakistan's English accent.i found pdf on wiki(search = Agha Waqar). i need diagram too but he didn't show the circuit, coil, bridge diode, inverter.i saw in his video,has 4 wires connect to wfc, inside the car has big yellow wire, safety bubble water flash back, other videos i saw Agha Waqar's assitant made wfc from old battery.

i thinks he keep this secret.but i think this's all Meyer tech.i will try search that you ask.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=661  --> about Agha Waqar 's videos

thanks
geenee
Seen the videos!not much of a proof he shows just one jar and one bubbler.To stick a hose in the engine and put people behind the wheel is not a proof,why does not pull the hose out to see the engine stops...One more thing i saw a methane gas tank behind,from what i know the gpl gas sistem conects trough the air inlet of the engine,not trough the fuel inlet.What about the hho management...?what happens with his jar when the car is iddling if the jar  produces lets say 30 lpm how do you control that flow?Stan has 2big boxes full with electronics and this guy shows a little jar and a hose.Even with resonance that he is talking about you need more tubes/cells to prodece enough gas to even idle a car....Untill i don't see some electronics i think is a froud and looking to get his people out of the poverty and to get noticet on media....
if you go to president and talk to him "here is success new energy".you must plan carefully??if you lie then you will arrest!!!!

picture i attached,it is inner tube of car tire. wfc--->inner tube-->water flash back arrestor or wfc-->water flash back arrestor--->inner tube

thanks
geenee
i saw that video too.what is this? a hho filled car  tire tube?for what?storage?
i thinks " low cost storage!!!- -* ".

i already tested VIC's Meyer with 230VAC-rms 50hz of my country(Thailand).my set up is 2 little plates of SS, distill water, 1 diode(1000v50a) 2 choke(from primary of MOT), cfl bulb 13w in series with secondary choke to see amps draw.
result is

1.VIC restrict amps flow 100% because stable dc cannot pass water capacitor.first - cfl light up and second - became dark.mean like charge capacitor when full with stop amps flow.

2.have a bubble in middle plates.this is distill water!!!!!!!i'm very happy this.i never make bubble by distill water.

that proof my opinion.RL low pass filter to make stable DC(straight line DC).stable dc cannot pass distill water.but this test use 50hz frequency of home power.i think resonant will improve gas and more voltage will good.

thanks
geenee
Cool Geenne, but you made ​​no measurements: Volts and current.
I'm not entirely sure, that distilled water begins to ionize and begin to conduct current, especially with high voltage. I did tests with distilled water, because from the beginning I wanted to replicate Meyer, and he used any water.
Now I'm destroying a flyback a monitor (as they have tripler and this hinders), to enjoy the trafo lift.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 21st, 2012, 06:20 PM
Quote from Faisca on September 21st, 2012, 04:05 PM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 10:45 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 05:48 AM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote from adys15 on September 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
Seen the videos!not much of a proof he shows just one jar and one bubbler.To stick a hose in the engine and put people behind the wheel is not a proof,why does not pull the hose out to see the engine stops...One more thing i saw a methane gas tank behind,from what i know the gpl gas sistem conects trough the air inlet of the engine,not trough the fuel inlet.What about the hho management...?what happens with his jar when the car is iddling if the jar  produces lets say 30 lpm how do you control that flow?Stan has 2big boxes full with electronics and this guy shows a little jar and a hose.Even with resonance that he is talking about you need more tubes/cells to prodece enough gas to even idle a car....Untill i don't see some electronics i think is a froud and looking to get his people out of the poverty and to get noticet on media....
if you go to president and talk to him "here is success new energy".you must plan carefully??if you lie then you will arrest!!!!

picture i attached,it is inner tube of car tire. wfc--->inner tube-->water flash back arrestor or wfc-->water flash back arrestor--->inner tube

thanks
geenee
i saw that video too.what is this? a hho filled car  tire tube?for what?storage?
i thinks " low cost storage!!!- -* ".

i already tested VIC's Meyer with 230VAC-rms 50hz of my country(Thailand).my set up is 2 little plates of SS, distill water, 1 diode(1000v50a) 2 choke(from primary of MOT), cfl bulb 13w in series with secondary choke to see amps draw.
result is

1.VIC restrict amps flow 100% because stable dc cannot pass water capacitor.first - cfl light up and second - became dark.mean like charge capacitor when full with stop amps flow.

2.have a bubble in middle plates.this is distill water!!!!!!!i'm very happy this.i never make bubble by distill water.

that proof my opinion.RL low pass filter to make stable DC(straight line DC).stable dc cannot pass distill water.but this test use 50hz frequency of home power.i think resonant will improve gas and more voltage will good.

thanks
geenee
Cool Geenne, but you made ​​no measurements: Volts and current.
I'm not entirely sure, that distilled water begins to ionize and begin to conduct current, especially with high voltage. I did tests with distilled water, because from the beginning I wanted to replicate Meyer, and he used any water.
Now I'm destroying a flyback a monitor (as they have tripler and this hinders), to enjoy the trafo lift.
i thinks too with you,if make more bubbles between plates, it will conduct current because air's dielectric strength lower than water. from this, Meyer upgrade WFC add duty circle on PLL.to wait water come back again.but in the test didn't have more bubbles and low voltage(230/2 Vrms).if electric pass water but cannot pass air.

1.this is my setup pictures.
2.when turn on power light up.
3.after a little time(0.5s) light drop and gone(see bulb on first pic).
4.1ohm10w resister to measure amps draw.
5.volt=0.05v amps=0.05 amps=50 milliamperes.
6.a little bubble from distilled water(distilled water for battery).if you distill water by yourself, it will be best purest water.

updated
-i tested to measure voltage across cell is 62 VDC. i thinks if voltage of wfc up to 20000v it will be excited.
-reason for use bulb to test be cause i fear short circuit if distilled water conduct electric(but now i known 100% is not conduct stable dc).next step i remove bulb and result is more bubble, amps draw about 80mA.!!!!!! let's test by yourself ,will be excited.!!! choke of Meyer is any choke(Air core,Ferrite core,iron core).all choke act like RL filter like RC low pass filter.to make stable dc low swing range PEAK TO PEAK DC.

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: dennis on September 21st, 2012, 07:15 PM
hi all :p I just found this great site yesterday i have a suggestion i dunno if you've thought of this but instead of distilled water or s.s i kinda figured out something that works better get some aluminum plates and anodize them...it makes the outside layer non-conductive connect your wires and silicon around them...i have gotten hydrogen with very little effort...i'm suggesting it might be a better idea too test your vic circuits on this cuz it has zero leakage...or maybe you have good cells :P
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 21st, 2012, 08:26 PM
Quote from dennis on September 21st, 2012, 07:15 PM
hi all :p I just found this great site yesterday i have a suggestion i dunno if you've thought of this but instead of distilled water or s.s i kinda figured out something that works better get some aluminum plates and anodize them...it makes the outside layer non-conductive connect your wires and silicon around them...i have gotten hydrogen with very little effort...i'm suggesting it might be a better idea too test your vic circuits on this cuz it has zero leakage...or maybe you have good cells :P
that's great.that's my old thought(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=563) but it's work,like you suggested.

updated
-when i remove cfl bulb then i measure voltage across WFC.voltage is 95VDC.amps draw 70-80mA.more bubbles than first test.let's test this all.

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on September 22nd, 2012, 10:04 AM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 08:26 PM
Quote from dennis on September 21st, 2012, 07:15 PM
hi all :p I just found this great site yesterday i have a suggestion i dunno if you've thought of this but instead of distilled water or s.s i kinda figured out something that works better get some aluminum plates and anodize them...it makes the outside layer non-conductive connect your wires and silicon around them...i have gotten hydrogen with very little effort...i'm suggesting it might be a better idea too test your vic circuits on this cuz it has zero leakage...or maybe you have good cells :P
that's great.that's my old thought(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=563) but it's work,like you suggested.

updated
-when i remove cfl bulb then i measure voltage across WFC.voltage is 95VDC.amps draw 70-80mA.more bubbles than first test.let's test this all.

thanks
geenee
Then Geenee, this is a lot of current (even in distilled water). I calculated, and in both cases the resistance of the cell was = 1240 ohms. Even if you remain linear with increasing voltage (I doubt, the tendency is to fall), when you apply, more than 1200 V, the current will be = 1 A. (or more) power than 1Kwatt.
So we're back to square one. Maybe with bidistilled water, can decrease the current in mA. even in kVolts. But this water will be as precious as gasoline and do not want that.
I still can not make stuff for my experiment, in which I know I can by KVolts with almost zero current (> 2kV /< 5mA.). Just do not know if gas does. Just experimenting.
Good luck
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 22nd, 2012, 10:52 AM
my water is not pure(distilled water for battery).it's leak current.then amps will increase linear like you said.in stable DC cannot pass normal capacitor and water too. that's important.

next step i have problems about DCHV.i need 140000v for 2 mm gap(dielectric strength 70000v/1mm),breakdown point.how to do that??i have a 10KV(AC) circuit but it's not enough.if water capacitor has 10nF and charge to 140000V that a huge of energy!!!!98 Joule.charge Q=0.0014 Coulombs.need a huge of Amps from primary side.maybe need a over unity unit to charge water capacitor from primary side to that breakdown point!!!!!!

Faisca,i like your all videos.great experiment about high voltages.let's test that.need help!!!

thanks
geenee

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: dennis on September 22nd, 2012, 11:48 AM
Quote from geenee on September 21st, 2012, 08:26 PM
Quote from dennis on September 21st, 2012, 07:15 PM
hi all :p I just found this great site yesterday i have a suggestion i dunno if you've thought of this but instead of distilled water or s.s i kinda figured out something that works better get some aluminum plates and anodize them...it makes the outside layer non-conductive connect your wires and silicon around them...i have gotten hydrogen with very little effort...i'm suggesting it might be a better idea too test your vic circuits on this cuz it has zero leakage...or maybe you have good cells :P
that's great.that's my old thought(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=563) but it's work,like you suggested.

updated
-when i remove cfl bulb then i measure voltage across WFC.voltage is 95VDC.amps draw 70-80mA.more bubbles than first test.let's test this all.

thanks
geenee
i guess this is probably not the right thread to discuss this but:)... from what i've read and understand the conditioning process is basically slowly pulling the chromium in the s.s too the surface thus actually insulating the outside layer...if this is indeed whats happening then you can very easily bypass all the work of conditioning by using alum and having someone anodize it for you or look it up and do it yourself its basically a acid bath with electrolysis or something. I don't see the cell working if the conditioning layer isn't there unless ur using distilled water(which isn't very realistic) also i was wondering, when i started out i was basically following the pjkbook.pdf eBook floating around ....now it all seems out too lunch now...but i was following the concept of cutting notches into the pipes to make the pitches match, if its a capacitor then why is that relevant, is this indeed part of stans design. maybe the 3 inch cell design i saw in the rebuild guides is notched to match the both pipes frequency's also, has this been considered?  could this have an effect on the vic coils output signal.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Amsy on September 22nd, 2012, 12:29 PM
hy folks,

I saw the threads about your actual tests. Also at this time I make tests with MOTs and a little WFC. The WFC is a spark plug with very little electrode surface.

The MOT is my "VIC" and I can reach at ~300Watts ionisation of the hydrogen gas which is built on the - electrode. The evidence of the ionisation of the hydrogen is because there are sparks around the - electrode which are dark violett and ultraviolett.

During ionisation there happens a stealing of electrones out of the hydrogen. That reduces the current which has to be feed in. An importnant point is the floating ground of the secondary, then the stealed electrons can not reach the input of the houseelectric. But I will build in also a filter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_filter

So the discharges in the water and the stealed electrones (HF interference) cannot leave the circuit.

Ciao
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on September 22nd, 2012, 04:55 PM
Dennis, i don't know about relation between notches sound vibration resonant inside cell, hard to understand that.lets's see in wave guide thread.maybe helped.

Amsy,please explain your work.like picture, diagrams.how to steal electron from water?i will try too!!!

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 04:56 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 30th, 2012, 09:46 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 20th, 2012, 05:32 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 15th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I'm posting this message here to lead you to ionizationx.com because I don't want to post a copy of a thread twice.

This could be the working principle of the Resonance VIC transformer and also the Injector VIC unit since it is a follow up improved version.
Quote from http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23224.html#msg23224
The VIC is a system for restricting the flow of amperes while allowing voltage electrical stress to be propagated. It uses a principle called the electron bounce phenomenon, that is simply the separation of charges in conductor materials under time varying magnetic fields. For this a pulse is applied and is compressed during the collapse the field in its coils.
Let me know what you think!

It involves the EbP Electron Bounce Phenomenon(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226) and Electron Clustering.

If there are few members who can not access the ionizationx site I would post the thread here if required.

Cheers!!!

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,
Your results are very interesting indeed, the scope shots where you do not have the wfc connected seem almost perfect step charging images. You state that when you connect the wfc that the signal is not at all there anymore but could you post it anyways?

Allthough i have quite some electrical engineering knowlegde some things are difficult for me to grasp (guess happens to all of us sometimes :cool: ). Could you try to enlighten me a bit on what exactly triggers the electron bounce phenomena? I do understand why it could trigger amp restriction but i do not understand what makes the copper ions and electrons cluster on opposite sides of the coil? As far as my knowlegde reaches the only resistance to amp flow was the actual copper wire resistance itself. Do you know of any, non-meyer, information source about the ebp in inductive coils?

Thank you,
Sharky
Sharky,

Here are my scope shots!

First the open circuit measured;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2130)

positive choke B+ connected to WFC plate, B- open;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2131)

negative choke B- connected to WFC plate, B+ open;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2132)

chokes connected to both B+ and B- connected to WFC;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2133)

PULSE on the same frequency and GATE duty cycle and period are fixed except when the WFC is connected frequency is lower.

Regards
Above is a "Damped Oscillator".

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226

Index
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/315/Waves/node8.html
Transient Oscillator Response
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/315/Waves/node14.html

(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2679)

Question:
What will happen when we force a "Critically Damped Oscillator" near resonance?

(http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/images/oscda12.gif)

Is this the PFN part?

(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=1102)

Regards,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Amsy on December 4th, 2012, 05:55 AM
Quote from geenee on September 22nd, 2012, 04:55 PM
Dennis, i don't know about relation between notches sound vibration resonant inside cell, hard to understand that.lets's see in wave guide thread.maybe helped.

Amsy,please explain your work.like picture, diagrams.how to steal electron from water?i will try too!!!

thanks
geenee
Hi geenee,

basically for testing of the ionization and collecting experience it is possible to do this with a Spark plug. My test setup worked with a spark plug with 5kOhm Resistor inside.
So you put the spark plug on the secondary side of a MOT with a diode like the VIC is.
Then you should take a variac for the primary side to controll the voltage, that you can try different voltages. Be carefull, the secondary of the MOT can kill you.

The spark plug can be immersed in destilled water. It also work other water. You should keep the current down on the secondary side smaler than 0.5A.

Make brakes during testing, the spark plug is getting warm and also the MOT.
The 0.5A is a little current, but can bring electrolyses in the first step. This builds H2 on the cathode (-) and that will be ionized because of the voltage.
You can see sparks and it makes deep noises during ionization.

Keep in mind: be carfull! Always plug of the MOT and Variac when making changes to the system.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Dear Webmug and Sharky,

Short question on these interesting scope views.
Is the choke in the circuit made of copper or SS wire?

Cheers,  Rider
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Dear Webmug and Sharky,

Short question on these interesting scope views.
Is the choke in the circuit made of copper or SS wire?

Cheers,  Rider
Rider,
Choke is made of Copper wire.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Dear Webmug and Sharky,

Short question on these interesting scope views.
Is the choke in the circuit made of copper or SS wire?

Cheers,  Rider
Rider,
Choke is made of Copper wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,  According to Stan (video in new zealand) amp restriction is done by high restrictive wire choke.  Therefore has to be SS-wire.  Do you or sharky have access to this wire?

Rider
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:43 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Dear Webmug and Sharky,

Short question on these interesting scope views.
Is the choke in the circuit made of copper or SS wire?

Cheers,  Rider
Rider,
Choke is made of Copper wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,  According to Stan (video in new zealand) amp restriction is done by high restrictive wire choke.  Therefore has to be SS-wire.  Do you or sharky have access to this wire?

Rider
Yes, there are two versions of a VIC. The one I'm referring (scope shots) to has copper wire. The Injector VIC has SS wire.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:50 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:43 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Dear Webmug and Sharky,

Short question on these interesting scope views.
Is the choke in the circuit made of copper or SS wire?

Cheers,  Rider
Rider,
Choke is made of Copper wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,  According to Stan (video in new zealand) amp restriction is done by high restrictive wire choke.  Therefore has to be SS-wire.  Do you or sharky have access to this wire?

Rider
Yes, there are two versions of a VIC. The one I'm referring (scope shots) to has copper wire. The Injector VIC has SS wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hmm, these same scopeshots with the Injector VIC connected might be very interesting then since it looks everything else is working.
(I assume you mean the delrin VIC bobbin with the EI laminated core according to Dynodon with the 2 spools that fit together.)

Rider
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:54 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:50 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:43 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Dear Webmug and Sharky,

Short question on these interesting scope views.
Is the choke in the circuit made of copper or SS wire?

Cheers,  Rider
Rider,
Choke is made of Copper wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,  According to Stan (video in new zealand) amp restriction is done by high restrictive wire choke.  Therefore has to be SS-wire.  Do you or sharky have access to this wire?

Rider
Yes, there are two versions of a VIC. The one I'm referring (scope shots) to has copper wire. The Injector VIC has SS wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hmm, these same scopeshots with the Injector VIC connected might be very interesting then since it looks everything else is working.
(I assume you mean the delrin VIC bobbin with the EI laminated core according to Dynodon with the 2 spools that fit together.)

Rider
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2128

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Rider on December 4th, 2012, 08:02 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:54 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:50 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:43 AM
Quote from Rider on December 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Rider,
Choke is made of Copper wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,  According to Stan (video in new zealand) amp restriction is done by high restrictive wire choke.  Therefore has to be SS-wire.  Do you or sharky have access to this wire?

Rider
Yes, there are two versions of a VIC. The one I'm referring (scope shots) to has copper wire. The Injector VIC has SS wire.

Br,
Webmug
Hmm, these same scopeshots with the Injector VIC connected might be very interesting then since it looks everything else is working.
(I assume you mean the delrin VIC bobbin with the EI laminated core according to Dynodon with the 2 spools that fit together.)

Rider
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2128

Br,
Webmug
This picture is from the copper chokes.  So, I mean the other one.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: IED on December 4th, 2012, 10:28 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 04:56 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 30th, 2012, 09:46 AM
Quote from Sharky on August 20th, 2012, 05:32 AM
Quote from Webmug on August 15th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I'm posting this message here to lead you to ionizationx.com because I don't want to post a copy of a thread twice.

This could be the working principle of the Resonance VIC transformer and also the Injector VIC unit since it is a follow up improved version.
Quote from http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23224.html#msg23224
The VIC is a system for restricting the flow of amperes while allowing voltage electrical stress to be propagated. It uses a principle called the electron bounce phenomenon, that is simply the separation of charges in conductor materials under time varying magnetic fields. For this a pulse is applied and is compressed during the collapse the field in its coils.
Let me know what you think!

It involves the EbP Electron Bounce Phenomenon(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226) and Electron Clustering.

If there are few members who can not access the ionizationx site I would post the thread here if required.

Cheers!!!

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,
Your results are very interesting indeed, the scope shots where you do not have the wfc connected seem almost perfect step charging images. You state that when you connect the wfc that the signal is not at all there anymore but could you post it anyways?

Allthough i have quite some electrical engineering knowlegde some things are difficult for me to grasp (guess happens to all of us sometimes :cool: ). Could you try to enlighten me a bit on what exactly triggers the electron bounce phenomena? I do understand why it could trigger amp restriction but i do not understand what makes the copper ions and electrons cluster on opposite sides of the coil? As far as my knowlegde reaches the only resistance to amp flow was the actual copper wire resistance itself. Do you know of any, non-meyer, information source about the ebp in inductive coils?

Thank you,
Sharky
Sharky,

Here are my scope shots!

First the open circuit measured;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2130)

positive choke B+ connected to WFC plate, B- open;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2131)

negative choke B- connected to WFC plate, B+ open;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2132)

chokes connected to both B+ and B- connected to WFC;
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2133)

PULSE on the same frequency and GATE duty cycle and period are fixed except when the WFC is connected frequency is lower.

Regards
Above is a "Damped Oscillator".

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226

Index
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/315/Waves/node8.html
Transient Oscillator Response
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/315/Waves/node14.html

(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=2679)

Question:
What will happen when we force a "Critically Damped Oscillator" near resonance?

(http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/images/oscda12.gif)

Is this the PFN part?

(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=1102)

Regards,
Webmug
Interesting scope shots as the only ones I have ever seen like this where from here: http://youtu.be/GnpPhfVBsXM.
Question, was the VIC transformer hooked up to a WFC during the test? I went ahead and gave that guy my support as the WFC he has looks like he has done his homework big time and I need something like that for my testing of this technology. I just hope he gets more sold as he told me that he might have to issue me a refund if he can't get 10 sold from here: http://www.truegreensolutions.net/index.php?p=1_32_Exciter-Array

Seems like real progress is finally being made on this technology :)

Regards,
IED
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on June 29th, 2013, 12:06 PM
So who has progress with the VIC?
Seen any signals like this with connected and disconnected WFC.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 3rd, 2013, 03:51 PM
I have had some success getting the step charging effect.

Here are some of my scope shots from a VIC I designed a while back.

[attachment=3905][attachment=3906]

This stuff takes a tremendous amount of work to get right. I've designed 10 VIC's and still am not able to get the full effect. BTW, when I say I've designed 10 VIC's that does not mean I just wrapped some wire on a coil former. I have a notebook with page after page of math to prove it. Meyer's work is not easy to replicate. IMHO the coil design is one of the most critical parts of the system, and probably the most complex.

I have learned a great deal about the VIC and the Water capacitor since then. One thing I pointed out before that I will point out again here is that the water cap needs more current than most people think.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 4th, 2013, 04:24 AM
Nice..HMS-776,what vic type do you use?vic coil type or U core one?whats the size of your wfc?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Jeff Nading on July 4th, 2013, 07:18 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 3rd, 2013, 03:51 PM
I have had some success getting the step charging effect.

Here are some of my scope shots from a VIC I designed a while back.

This stuff takes a tremendous amount of work to get right. I've designed 10 VIC's and still am not able to get the full effect. BTW, when I say I've designed 10 VIC's that does not mean I just wrapped some wire on a coil former. I have a notebook with page after page of math to prove it. Meyer's work is not easy to replicate. IMHO the coil design is one of the most critical parts of the system, and probably the most complex.

I have learned a great deal about the VIC and the Water capacitor since then. One thing I pointed out before that I will point out again here is that the water cap needs more current than most people think.
Good incite, findings and proof of concept HMS-776. Please keep up the good work, Jeff.:cool::D:P
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 4th, 2013, 02:34 PM

Those scope shots were from coils I designed myself. I could never get the U core or any other Meyer VIC to work so I started designing my own.

I have a wfc that is 7 inches high, made from the standard .5" rod and .75" ID tube.

Trying to design a VIC is not only difficult, it's extremely time consuming.

[attachment=3913]

Above is a scope shot from an early design. Although you see some step charging the pulses are distorted and there are large gaps between pulses. An experienced coil designer coil take one look at this waveform and tell you a lot about the coil. It's parasitic elements are too high and it's underdamped.
After hours of work the scope shots tell the real truth.

After several more deisgns and got the following waveform:
[attachment=3914]

Although this one looks better it still is not a success.

The step charging scope shots I posted previously were the result of months of effort and different designs. They are a success in some ways (they achieved pulse doubling and step charging), but still not a complete success.

Since then I have tried and tried again to design a VIC which could give me the full effect (200V+) at the cell. I keep running into the same problems when doing the math. Those problems have kept me from building a new coil as I am not sure if I want to spend that amount of time on another design and build only to find out more problems to overcome.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 4th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 3rd, 2013, 03:51 PM
I have had some success getting the step charging effect.

Here are some of my scope shots from a VIC I designed a while back.

This stuff takes a tremendous amount of work to get right. I've designed 10 VIC's and still am not able to get the full effect. BTW, when I say I've designed 10 VIC's that does not mean I just wrapped some wire on a coil former. I have a notebook with page after page of math to prove it. Meyer's work is not easy to replicate. IMHO the coil design is one of the most critical parts of the system, and probably the most complex.

I have learned a great deal about the VIC and the Water capacitor since then. One thing I pointed out before that I will point out again here is that the water cap needs more current than most people think.
More curent than people think?so you used a thicker wire on primary because of the voltage drop when conect the wfc?What was the voltage at the cell?production?From what i'v seen you dont get much gas from the resonant setup...cheers!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 4th, 2013, 07:17 PM
More current, Yes!

If you have a bucket with a small hole in the bottom of it how could you fill it up with liquid? You have to put the liquid into the bucket at a faster rate than it will leak out. (Think of the bucket as the capacitor and the liquid as current).

Even distilled water is conductive. I did leakage tests at different voltages using a coaxial cell (Meyer's standard 3" tube set) and distilled water. At 60V the leakage current through the water was 150mA!

So tell me, how can you expect to fill the bucket (charge the capacitor) with 1mA when there is 150mA leaking out? This is why so many of the replications out there see only tiny voltages at the cell, even when your coil outputs several hundred volts or more.

It's not only about resonance! That's just one part of a much more complex system.
I can hit resonance any time I want with my coils. I designed my coils to output around 300V (and they will) but when connected to the capacitor I can only step charge to about 20V.

In the International Independent test report Meyer states the electrical input per tube was 12.5V @ 4.4 Amps! (See pg 60).

This is just the beginning...

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 5th, 2013, 02:13 AM
Thanks HMS!You are saying to charge the cap with more current,that meaning thicker wire on primary and chokes...I though we are charging the wfc with potential..I had better results with thicker wire on chokes.

I know that doc.Stan used 12v because that was his max output of the alternator.
How can you say step up from 300v to 30v?

About the production in your setup at resonance...seems like 30v strait dc?
Cheers!

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on July 5th, 2013, 11:11 PM
This is excellent work

Well done guys
the scope shot of different designs is very important for education of others.

What you are doing here is re learning the method and why.

It is vey interesting tht you have posted the step and screen shots from different coils.

it help people under stand the progression.

could you consider posting a word file or diary of your current coil design trails and scope shots? to date ,

t would help others  delete a lot of things not to try and
see the results of each that you have done .

You have very unique knowledge on oils design and this and your comments on each
will help a lot for other to follow you work here more closely.

this could empower alot of people to advance to the same page and continue with further.

PLease do documents it and post it for future generations to use.

Dan

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 6th, 2013, 09:20 AM
Quote from adys15 on July 5th, 2013, 02:13 AM
Thanks HMS!You are saying to charge the cap with more current,that meaning thicker wire on primary and chokes...I though we are charging the wfc with potential..I had better results with thicker wire on chokes.

I know that doc.Stan used 12v because that was his max output of the alternator.
How can you say step up from 300v to 30v?

About the production in your setup at resonance...seems like 30v strait dc?
Cheers!
It's not just thicker wire, it depends on a number of things.
To get a higher voltage you also need a step up transformer.
I never messed with the alternator setup as that seemed like too much work and money to get going.

I used small ferrite cores so I did not have a lot of room for wire. To get the choke inductance I needed required most of the coil former so I had to have two separate coils-one for the step up transformer, and one for the chokes.

Btw, the chokes do not have to be wound bifilar. Winding bifilar just ensures a high coupling between the coils, and equal voltage across each coil. Winding bifilar minimizes leakage inductance but at the cost of a very high coil capacitance. The high capacitance of bifilar coils in the reason why you rarely see it used in any other applications. It's just a trade off, and for most designs a little leakage inductance is better than a very high capacitance. I had the best success with spilt bobbin coil formers in which the coils were separate, not bifilar.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 6th, 2013, 10:24 AM
Quote from securesupplies on July 5th, 2013, 11:11 PM
This is excellent work

Well done guys
the scope shot of different designs is very important for education of others.

What you are doing here is re learning the method and why.

It is vey interesting tht you have posted the step and screen shots from different coils.

it help people under stand the progression.

could you consider posting a word file or diary of your current coil design trails and scope shots? to date ,

t would help others  delete a lot of things not to try and
see the results of each that you have done .

You have very unique knowledge on oils design and this and your comments on each
will help a lot for other to follow you work here more closely.

this could empower alot of people to advance to the same page and continue with further.

PLease do documents it and post it for future generations to use.

Dan
Dan, thanks for the kind words.

Honestly, I should have kept better track of the different coils I used to get the different waveforms. I would post the specs on everything but I would only be misleading people.

There is a lot to getting Meyer's stuff working. In the coil design alone there are too many considerations to even mention here.

As I stated before all the coils I have designed so far are worthless. I cannot step charge to anything over 20V. Most people would tell me to increase the primary voltage to get a higher voltage at the cell, but if I did I would saturate the core. That's just one of a few problems I had.

The problem I see with getting Meyer's stuff working is that there is much more to it than meets the eye. I don't think you could even fit it all in this forum. Right now I am just trying to share what I have learned in a simple way so that others can understand. Once I get things really working I will share more.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 6th, 2013, 02:24 PM
HMS-776

Your chokes have the same number of windings or +choke is larger like stans?About the bif capacitance i think is good because must be higher than the wfc capacitance...I used 24awg bif in most of my tests...what gauge do you use?
Have you try the specs from Stan's patent?the one with the small toroid...
Keep up the good work!

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 7th, 2013, 11:03 AM
Quote from adys15 on July 6th, 2013, 02:24 PM
HMS-776

Your chokes have the same number of windings or +choke is larger like stans?About the bif capacitance i think is good because must be higher than the wfc capacitance...I used 24awg bif in most of my tests...what gauge do you use?
Have you try the specs from Stan's patent?the one with the small toroid...
Keep up the good work!
The chokes I made had identical specs for each choke coil (equal wire size, # turns, inductance, resistance etc). The ones which performed best were not bifilar but were wound individually on a split coil former.

There is no magic to a bifilar coil. It's a tradeoff. A bifilar coil maximizes coupling and minimizes leakage inductance, but at the cost of a very high coil capacitance.
The coil capacitance is effectively in parallel with the inductance. Forming a parallel LC circuit which will oscillate if the coils resistance is not large enough to damp out the oscillations. If the resistance is not large enough the coils will output AC to the cell. (A problem I had with early designs, I also modeled it in multisim to be sure that was where the AC was coming from).

I don't think bifilar coils are a requirement, perhaps I am wrong. But I see more problems than solutions by using a bifilar coil. I could list off a number of reasons why bifilar coils can cause more problems than they can solve. It's not that they wont work, it's just that they complicate the design considerably. I think Meyer used bifilar coils because then he could ensure an equal voltage across the cell.

The coils I made used wire sizes ranging from 23AWG-34AWG.

I tried to replicate Stan's torroid setup a long time ago but I could never find that core material.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 7th, 2013, 12:21 PM
Thanks Hms.I think at resonance of the coils they all output AC....
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 7th, 2013, 03:16 PM
Quote from adys15 on July 7th, 2013, 12:21 PM
Thanks Hms.I think at resonance of the coils they all output AC....
The coils which I used to achieve step charging did not output AC at any frequency.
If the coils are critically damped they will output the unipolar DC pulses which are needed to charge the capacitor.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 7th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 7th, 2013, 03:16 PM
Quote from adys15 on July 7th, 2013, 12:21 PM
Thanks Hms.I think at resonance of the coils they all output AC....
The coils which I used to achieve step charging did not output AC at any frequency.
If the coils are critically damped they will output the unipolar DC pulses which are needed to charge the capacitor.
critically damped ?
Before you hit resonance there was any gas prod?cheers!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 7th, 2013, 08:36 PM
Read up on damping factors in RLC circuits. A critically damped RLC circuit will not oscillate. If the circuit is underdamped it will oscillate and the unipolar voltage pulses can go below zero (preventing the cap from charging).

Gas production occurs outside of resonance but at resonance it increases considerably. However, at 20V there is not a whole lot of production.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on July 7th, 2013, 11:09 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 7th, 2013, 08:36 PM
Read up on damping factors in RLC circuits. A critically damped RLC circuit will not oscillate. If the circuit is underdamped it will oscillate and the unipolar voltage pulses can go below zero (preventing the cap from charging).

Gas production occurs outside of resonance but at resonance it increases considerably. However, at 20V there is not a whole lot of production.
Real great work,HMS-776.
Transient response is Longitudinal wave(come from aether).which one is the best effect for charging capacitor(Underdamped,Overdamped or critically damped)?

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 8th, 2013, 05:56 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 7th, 2013, 08:36 PM
Read up on damping factors in RLC circuits. A critically damped RLC circuit will not oscillate. If the circuit is underdamped it will oscillate and the unipolar voltage pulses can go below zero (preventing the cap from charging).

Gas production occurs outside of resonance but at resonance it increases considerably. However, at 20V there is not a whole lot of production.
thanks,HMS,i will....gas prod was prior to 20v strait dc...no?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on July 8th, 2013, 07:43 AM

WOW

FIRSTLY CONGRATULATIONS GUYS

Very Advanced work here on Stans Stuff!!!!

I really like the radar ref and this pic

============================================

Your idea about getting equipment to further the understanding of different water properties  in hz ranges is a very good direction. LOVE IT
============================================

Can you list models and pricing you need
I suggest we try and help raise funds so you can conduct that measurement work it would help mankind alot!

PLease list pricing of these units so we can see if we can
help out.
================================================
Again the posts on this thread are very advanced and a great read keep pushing very great work so far.

You are shedding new light and knowledge on stans thinking !! Keep it up GReat !!

Dan
www.securesupplies.biz
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on July 8th, 2013, 04:29 PM
if the coils resistance is not large enough to damp out the oscillations. If the resistance is not large enough the coils will output AC to the cell. (A problem I had with early designs, I also modeled it in multisim to be sure that was where the AC was coming from).

So you say to get unipolar pulses that charge the cap.and not AC waves,we need to have high resistance in the coils,that means to have small  wire diam.....but you said we also need curent to charge the cap.,that means your chokes  wire is thin and your secoundary have a thicher wire size....you canot have high resistance chokes,and provide also more curent to the cap,thats my humble opinion....Cheers!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on July 10th, 2013, 10:33 AM
hi

PLease watch this new video, I wish all videos could get posted with out clips or edite, this one is different and does shed new light in several areas, on vic http://youtu.be/OXctY1K4wko

dan
www.securesupplies.biz
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 12th, 2013, 11:47 AM
Quote
So you say to get unipolar pulses that charge the cap.and not AC waves,we need to have high resistance in the coils,that means to have small  wire diam.....but you said we also need curent to charge the cap.,that means your chokes  wire is thin and your secoundary have a thicher wire size....you canot have high resistance chokes,and provide also more curent to the cap,thats my humble opinion....Cheers!
Resistance is not the only thing which limits current in an RLC circuit. Also, the coils do not have to be critically damped, then can be slightly underdamped and still work.

Now your starting to see why coil design is so complex. There are a number of things to consider when choosing wire size. A few are: Inductance, impedance ratio, capacitance, current. There are others but right now I'm too out of it to remember all of them.

Meyer just explained the basics, once you really start digging deep into this tech you start seeing all the rabbit holes. Every time I answer a question I have I find I have 2 more to find answers to.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Ravenous Emu on July 12th, 2013, 05:05 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 12th, 2013, 11:47 AM
Meyer just explained the basics... Every time I answer a question I have I find I have 2 more to find answers to.
Well said. LOL!  :D :cool: :P
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on July 13th, 2013, 08:30 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 4th, 2013, 07:17 PM
More current, Yes!

If you have a bucket with a small hole in the bottom of it how could you fill it up with liquid? You have to put the liquid into the bucket at a faster rate than it will leak out. (Think of the bucket as the capacitor and the liquid as current).

Even distilled water is conductive. I did leakage tests at different voltages using a coaxial cell (Meyer's standard 3" tube set) and distilled water. At 60V the leakage current through the water was 150mA!

So tell me, how can you expect to fill the bucket (charge the capacitor) with 1mA when there is 150mA leaking out? This is why so many of the replications out there see only tiny voltages at the cell, even when your coil outputs several hundred volts or more.

It's not only about resonance! That's just one part of a much more complex system.
I can hit resonance any time I want with my coils. I designed my coils to output around 300V (and they will) but when connected to the capacitor I can only step charge to about 20V.

In the International Independent test report Meyer states the electrical input per tube was 12.5V @ 4.4 Amps! (See pg 60).

This is just the beginning...
I don't think the resonance WFC 3 incher + VIC are pulling 4.4A@12V !!!! Most the prim. wire can handle is 300mA. Since we pulse the prim. it can handle some more current but it will heat-up and burn.

What you are saying about 150mA leak current is called "current" we want "static".

"Static" is a separation; it is a stretching-apart, and it really has little to do with anything remaining static or stationary.

"Current" is a flowing motion. It has little to do with the separation of opposite charges.

In Stans words "restricting current"!!! (We already know)
About "tuning"the neg. choke. I still think the chokes are PFN but the WFC is connected to it and we must recalculate the specs of this neg. choke design. This is the "current restrict" choke! Read above, we want "static" and not "flow".

I know, it's complicated! :)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on July 18th, 2013, 12:16 PM
Quote from "Webmug"
I don't think the resonance WFC 3 incher + VIC are pulling 4.4A@12V !!!! Most the prim. wire can handle is 300mA. Since we pulse the prim. it can handle some more current but it will heat-up and burn.

What you are saying about 150mA leak current is called "current" we want "static".

"Static" is a separation; it is a stretching-apart, and it really has little to do with anything remaining static or stationary.

"Current" is a flowing motion. It has little to do with the separation of opposite charges.

In Stans words "restricting current"!!! (We already know)
About "tuning"the neg. choke. I still think the chokes are PFN but the WFC is connected to it and we must recalculate the specs of this neg. choke design. This is the "current restrict" choke! Read above, we want "static" and not "flow".

I know, it's complicated! :)

Br,
Webmug
The 4.4 Amps was for Stan's original tubes that were connected to the alternator.

How do you expect to build up a charge with a small current when the majority of the electrons will leak into the water?

Btw, a PFN stores charge over time and then releases it in a short high current burst. It restricts current but like Stan's circuits the current restriction is not as much as most of us originally thought.

If all my time spent designing,  building,  and testing coils has taught me one thing,  it's that the circuit needs more current to work.
In my previous posts I provided different scope shots that I achieved.  Some of those early scope shots only step charged to about 8V, and my latest step charged to about 20V. The coils which allowed the water cap to step charge to 20V had a higher current (I took current measurements of all the coils).  I did other tests at even higher currents and was able to get 100v spikes across the water cap.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 12:09 AM

I noticed this topic is getting a lot of views so I thought I would try to post some more info.

I think there is a lot of confusion when it comes to Meyer's Pulse/frequency doubling.

First off, it is not frequency doubling or pulse doubling. If you build the circuit correctly and connect the coils correctly you WILL NOT see an additional pulse. What you will see is the pulse length at the load/capacitor is 2X the pulse length at the primary coil.

So, if you put a 1kHz 50% duty cycle pulse through the primary coil then the pulse length is
1/1000=.001 x .5 = .0005 Seconds
If you get the effect Meyer calls frequency doubling you will get a pulse at the capacitor that is 2 x .0005 seconds which is .001 Seconds. Which is equal to 1,000 HZ at 100% duty cycle. When this occurs there is a constant current flow to the capacitor which prevents it from discharging between pulses.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM
Thanks HMS!Have you managed to ged the voltage up?

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 12:49 PM
OK,

Back to the frequency doubling.

When you put a square wave through an inductor the magnetic field builds up. When the square wave ends the magnetic field collapses. The result is a ramp waveform which resembles a full wave rectified waveform. Since an inductor does not allow instantaneous changes in current the current slowly rises and falls.

Frequency doubling is really not the correct term because you do not get an extra pulse. You get an extension of the applied pulse which is the same length as the applied pulse.

[attachment=4042]
Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM
Thanks HMS!Have you managed to ged the voltage up?
Summer hobbies (mostly mountain biking) have taken up all my time lately. But I'm getting back into the hydrogen game now. Still working on the coil design to be able to get more voltage at the cell. Right now I'm stuck on a few things which are keeping me from my next coil design.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 01:08 PM
Glad to hear this,have you build(in the past) the wfc vic exactly as the estate ones?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 02:15 PM
Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 01:08 PM
Glad to hear this,have you build(in the past) the wfc vic exactly as the estate ones?
Yes I did,  with exact inductances and resistances. But. ... it never worked.
Imo that coil design was incorrect. After all, did anyone see that one producing gas?

Irondmax got it working only after he gapped the core.
Stan's setup had nothing on it to create or maintain a core gap.

I tried replicating Stan's designs, and like most they never worked.
That's when I decided to design my own coils.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Thx for reply.I buyed some 30awg wire to build a similar setup but i'm affraid to ruin the wire for nothing.You are using your chokes separately from primary/sec?Max's vic also worked because he used 10 wfc's in series.cheers!

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on August 17th, 2013, 06:26 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 12:49 PM
OK,

Back to the frequency doubling.

When you put a square wave through an inductor the magnetic field builds up. When the square wave ends the magnetic field collapses. The result is a ramp waveform which resembles a full wave rectified waveform.

Frequency doubling is really not the correct term because you do not get an extra pulse. You get an extension of the applied pulse which is the same length as the applied pulse.

Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:56 AM
Thanks HMS!Have you managed to ged the voltage up?
Summer hobbies (mostly mountain biking) have taken up all my time lately. But I'm getting back into the hydrogen game now. Still working on the coil design to be able to get more voltage at the cell. Right now I'm stuck on a few things which are keeping me from my next coil design.
Exactly where I arrived, however the waveform is not sinusoidal, is unlike, inverted
See what I got.[attachment=4043][attachment=4044][attachment=4045][attachment=4046][attachment=4047][attachment=4048]
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 10:52 PM
Faisca

What part of the circuit were those scope shots taken from?

The reason I ask is because the current waveform through the inductor should resemble the positive half of an AC signal.

From those pictures it looks like you have a coil which has very high parasitic elements (leakage inductance and capacitance) which cause the leading and trailing edge times to be lengthened.

Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Thx for reply.I buyed some 30awg wire to build a similar setup but i'm affraid to ruin the wire for nothing.You are using your chokes separately from primary/sec?Max's vic also worked because he used 10 wfc's in series.cheers!
Yes...The coils I designed which produced the step charging waveform across the capacitor had the chokes on a separate core.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on August 18th, 2013, 10:36 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 17th, 2013, 10:52 PM
Faisca

What part of the circuit were those scope shots taken from?

The reason I ask is because the current waveform through the inductor should resemble the positive half of an AC signal.

From those pictures it looks like you have a coil which has very high parasitic elements (leakage inductance and capacitance) which cause the leading and trailing edge times to be lengthened.

Quote from adys15 on August 17th, 2013, 04:21 PM
Thx for reply.I buyed some 30awg wire to build a similar setup but i'm affraid to ruin the wire for nothing.You are using your chokes separately from primary/sec?Max's vic also worked because he used 10 wfc's in series.cheers!
Yes...The coils I designed which produced the step charging waveform across the capacitor had the chokes on a separate core.
Precisely between inductor and cell. These oscillograms represent the voltage and / or current in the cell.
Circuit, two 555 (basic), diode, one choke and one cell only.[attachment=4049]
This basic test was very unstable and hard to adjust. It happened almost by accident: When connecting the power, the current must be limited to 200mA (maybe more or less 30mA) and do not always happen on the first try.
See screen shot image, when it did not work.[attachment=4050][attachment=4051]
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
Ok,

Now I see what's causing the waveforms to look so weird.
Have you tried adding a transformer and coil driver to the circuit?

BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
[attachment=4053]

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Faisca on August 18th, 2013, 12:00 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
Ok,

Now I see what's causing the waveforms to look so weird.
Have you tried adding a transformer and coil driver to the circuit?

BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
Okay, your drawing of the waveform is correct, if "on the inductor", however if measured on the cell, will be the way I showed you.
Important: the peak current, arrived at 1A. and the average was 0.17A. The bubbles formed in the middle of the gap, a column of a ring.[attachment=4055]
Yes I tried to rise, using driver and transformer, but the distorted pulse, and the effect was impaired. I believe that with transformer and driver, well designed, I'll have a better result.
A screen shot using driver and transformer:[attachment=4054]
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Ravenous Emu on August 18th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
...BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
Thanks, HMS.
:D :cool: :P
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 09:20 PM
Quote from Ravenous Emu on August 18th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
...BTW everyone, here's a better drawing showing the 'Frequency Doubling' Effect.
Thanks, HMS.
:D :cool: :P
No problem,  The frequency doubling effect is hard to understand because it's not frequency doubling. It should be called pulse time doubling, that's what it really is.

Just so everyone here knows I'm not just making stuff up here's a scope shot from some early coil designs of mine.
The top scope shot is just the transformer with a 100k load across the secondary coil.
The bottom scope shot is the transformer and chokes connected with the same 100K load resistor.
(Measurements taken from across load resistor)

[attachment=4056]

Note the pulse time doubling which occurs with the chokes connected.
Also, note that these 2 coils were bad designs. The coils were each too far underdamped, had long rise and fall times, and backswing.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on August 20th, 2013, 08:37 PM

Hi this is post from Max and Per NEw Pages
They are continuing to do good work , I have shared here as it raises awareness for industry and may advanced us all more .

Any feed back please comment constructively
Tony also continues to work hard on electronics

Max and Per , PLease  feel invited to participate in forums more
all for one and one for all .

Daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

Stanley Meyers 5-Coil VIC Transformer

Winding and Wire information

After studying existing material on Stanley Meyers 5-coil VIC transformer, a friend of

StanleyMeyerWebshop has written a MATLAB program to fit measured values of DC resistance,

induction values and bobbin dimensions, to reach some practical value of the numbers of windings

and the wire diameter. Parameters to fit were, number of turns, wire diameter and air-gab.

Calculations revealed that two columns of the measured data was swapped for some reason. Here

are the resulting values based on a ferrite core with a relative permability of 2000:

Unit                     Feedback               Primary       Secondary           L1             L2

Windings                487                        629            3384                3558           3290

WireDia[um]           229                        269             254                  254             254

WinHght[mm]         2.6                          1.4              6.6                   6.9              6.4

L[mH]                     25                           42             1203                1330          1137

error[%]                  4                             -0               15                       5                -0

WireLen[m]            27                           35              213                   225             206

Airgab[mm]            3.2

Ueff                       71.8

Enamel-insulated 0.25mm Ø copper wire vill be used:

http://dk.farnell.com/pro-power/ecw0-25/wire-1120m-1-0-25mm-coppertransprnt/dp/1230976?Ntt=1230976

The original wire diameter seems to be slightly thicker but the number of turns is the most

important parameter. When putting on the windings it is recommended to put a layer of insulating

tape every other layers. This provides insulation between layers as well as a smooth surface to lay

the next windings on. Space is tight on the secondary windings. When starting on the winding, put a

piece of insulating tape on top of the start of the wire, so that extra insulation is provided against all

other winding layers.

The insulating tape could for example be 15 mm polyimide (kapton) tape:

http://dk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1503251&CMP=i-bf9f-00001000

When attaching the tape, make sure that there is minimal amount of overlap (if more tape pieces are

needed per layer) and make sure that it is not in the same place to prevent humps from which the

wire will slide down from.

With 0.25 mm wire there is space for approx. 110 turns per layer.

Feel free to use this information for experimentation. PDF here www.stanleymeyermedia.com

Thanks and all the best,

Per Ritter

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 10:13 AM
Quote from securesupplies on August 20th, 2013, 08:37 PM
Hi this is post from Max and Per NEw Pages
They are continuing to do good work , I have shared here as it raises awareness for industry and may advanced us all more .

Any feed back please comment constructively
Tony also continues to work hard on electronics

Max and Per , PLease  feel invited to participate in forums more
all for one and one for all .

Daniel
www.securesupplies.biz

Stanley Meyers 5-Coil VIC Transformer

Winding and Wire information

After studying existing material on Stanley Meyers 5-coil VIC transformer, a friend of

StanleyMeyerWebshop has written a MATLAB program to fit measured values of DC resistance,

induction values and bobbin dimensions, to reach some practical value of the numbers of windings

and the wire diameter. Parameters to fit were, number of turns, wire diameter and air-gab.

Calculations revealed that two columns of the measured data was swapped for some reason. Here

are the resulting values based on a ferrite core with a relative permability of 2000:

Unit                     Feedback               Primary       Secondary           L1             L2

Windings                487                        629            3384                3558           3290

WireDia[um]           229                        269             254                  254             254

WinHght[mm]         2.6                          1.4              6.6                   6.9              6.4

L[mH]                     25                           42             1203                1330          1137

error[%]                  4                             -0               15                       5                -0

WireLen[m]            27                           35              213                   225             206

Airgab[mm]            3.2

Ueff                       71.8

Enamel-insulated 0.25mm Ø copper wire vill be used:

http://dk.farnell.com/pro-power/ecw0-25/wire-1120m-1-0-25mm-coppertransprnt/dp/1230976?Ntt=1230976

The original wire diameter seems to be slightly thicker but the number of turns is the most

important parameter. When putting on the windings it is recommended to put a layer of insulating

tape every other layers. This provides insulation between layers as well as a smooth surface to lay

the next windings on. Space is tight on the secondary windings. When starting on the winding, put a

piece of insulating tape on top of the start of the wire, so that extra insulation is provided against all

other winding layers.

The insulating tape could for example be 15 mm polyimide (kapton) tape:

http://dk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1503251&CMP=i-bf9f-00001000

When attaching the tape, make sure that there is minimal amount of overlap (if more tape pieces are

needed per layer) and make sure that it is not in the same place to prevent humps from which the

wire will slide down from.

With 0.25 mm wire there is space for approx. 110 turns per layer.

Feel free to use this information for experimentation. PDF here www.stanleymeyermedia.com

Thanks and all the best,

Per Ritter
My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: adys15 on August 21st, 2013, 11:11 AM

My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.[/quote]Much more wire than is necesary,but more wire more voltage,maybe its messes up the res freq.in your case.Dont know why Stan used such thin core.
Have you tried your improved setup with all coils on one core?I gave up working this vic thing,because i have no scope,and poor production.Now i'm working on the alternator,making jigs and squizing more coils on the stator(oh boy thats a real strugle)...cheers!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
Quote from adys15 on August 21st, 2013, 11:11 AM
My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.
Much more wire than is necesary,but more wire more voltage,maybe its messes up the res freq.in your case.Dont know why Stan used such thin core.
Have you tried your improved setup with all coils on one core?I gave up working this vic thing,because i have no scope,and poor production.Now i'm working on the alternator,making jigs and squizing more coils on the stator(oh boy thats a real strugle)...cheers![/quote]More wire does not necessarily mean more voltage.  In fact more wire increases the copper losses of the coil which reduces efficiency.  The problem I see with that core is the core area is so small it puts a limit on maximum volt-seconds the core can handle without saturating. If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 21st, 2013, 01:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
... If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
I agree.

That´s the way to be back in action :-)

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Ravenous Emu on August 21st, 2013, 06:16 PM
Quote from bussi04 on August 21st, 2013, 01:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
... If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
I agree.
That´s the way to be back in action :-)
*raises hand*
I third that. :D
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: gpssonar on August 21st, 2013, 06:31 PM
Quote from Ravenous Emu on August 21st, 2013, 06:16 PM
Quote from bussi04 on August 21st, 2013, 01:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
... If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).
I agree.
That´s the way to be back in action :-)
*raises hand*
I third that. :D
I forth it!!!!!!!!

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on August 22nd, 2013, 10:51 PM
Dan
Quote from HMS-776 on August 21st, 2013, 12:38 PM
Quote from adys15 on August 21st, 2013, 11:11 AM
My hope is lost on that design,  but that's just me.
My core broke in 2 places anyways.  I just think that design uses a very fragile thin core and much more wire than is necessary.
Much more wire than is necesary,but more wire more voltage,maybe its messes up the res freq.in your case.Dont know why Stan used such thin core.
Have you tried your improved setup with all coils on one core?I gave up working this vic thing,because i have no scope,and poor production.Now i'm working on the alternator,making jigs and squizing more coils on the stator(oh boy thats a real strugle)...cheers!
More wire does not necessarily mean more voltage.  In fact more wire increases the copper losses of the coil which reduces efficiency.  The problem I see with that core is the core area is so small it puts a limit on maximum volt-seconds the core can handle without saturating. If you have a larger area core or use a different core material you can reduce the total size of the vic, decrease the amount of wire needed to achieve specific inductances, increase the output voltage,  and increase the efficiency as well as produce better output waveforms (reducing the amount of wire and turns is an easy way to minimize parasitics).[/quote]i like this quote alot well said !!

Dan
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
Thanks everyone:)

Here's something I figured out a while back I thought I would share.

Charging the water capacitor is not much different than charging a typical capacitor. The main difference, the water is conductive, the water capacitor self discharges in a very short time.

When you look at Stan's waveforms (and the waveforms others have posted) you should notice what those waveforms are showing. They show the RC time constant of the circuit.

[attachment=4086]

One thing which is odd about the waveforms is that the charge and discharge time (RC time constants) of the capacitor are not equal. This is because the diode separates the circuit into two different circuits. And because the applied electric field increases the conductivity (reduces the resistance) of the water. So the off time (discharge) RC time constant is much shorter.

The charging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the VIC circuit
-The resistance(impedance) of the water

The discharging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the water (reduced by electric field)

[attachment=4089]

Enjoy everyone!

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 24th, 2013, 09:46 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
Thanks everyone:)

Now I have something very important to share.

Charging the water capacitor is not much different than charging a typical capacitor. The main difference, the water is conductive, the water capacitor self discharges in a very short time.

When you look at Stan's waveforms (and the waveforms others have posted) you should notice what those waveforms are showing. They show the RC time constant of the circuit.

One thing which is odd about the waveforms is that the charge and discharge time (RC time constants) of the capacitor are not equal. This is because the diode separates the circuit into two different circuits. And because the applied electric field increases the conductivity (reduces the resistance) of the water

The charging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the VIC circuit
-The resistance of the water

The discharging RC time constant is determined by:
-The capacitance of the WFC
-The resistance of the water (reduced by electric field)

I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
HMS-776,

when go more into detail for those parameters I´ll try to make an LTSpice model to simulate circuit behaviour.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Matt Watts on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 24th, 2013, 10:46 AM
[/quote]HMS-776,

when go more into detail for those parameters I´ll try to make an LTSpice model to simulate circuit behaviour.[/quote]Already did! The only problem is you cannot simulate the non-linear resistance drop of the water. As dog one pointed out, the resistance of the water drops with voltage. It is well known in physics and chemistry that the resistance of water does not follow ohms law.

Because of that you can't get the discharge RC time constant to be shorter than the charging RC time constant on the simulation.

[attachment=4096]

ENJOY!
Quote from Dog-One on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.
I mentioned before that I did leakage tests on the wfc using distilled water. The leakage current rises exponentially with voltage, therefore you cannot charge the cell with a small current. You have to force more current than the water can use to the cell, that is the only way you can build up a voltage across the cell.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Gunther Rattay on August 24th, 2013, 11:52 AM
HMS-776,

when go more into detail for those parameters I´ll try to make an LTSpice model to simulate circuit behaviour.[/quote]Already did! The only problem is you cannot simulate the non-linear resistance drop of the water. As dog one pointed out, the resistance of the water drops with voltage. It is well known in physics and chemistry that the resistance of water does not follow ohms law.

Because of that you can't get the discharge RC time constant to be shorter than the charging RC time constant on the simulation.

ENJOY!
Quote from Dog-One on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.
I mentioned before that I did leakage tests on the wfc using distilled water. The leakage current rises exponentially with voltage, therefore you cannot charge the cell with a small current. You have to force more current than the water can use to the cell, that is the only way you can build up a voltage across the cell.[/quote]you can. spice supports programmable voltage and current sources. driven by capacitors and inductors integral and differential voltage and current behaviour can be simulated. that way a variable resistance can be emulated.

of course it needs parameter tables to implemente the simulation.

as an example for a saturable transformer core simulated in spice realized with programmable sources: http://www.beigebag.com/case_xfrmer_3.htm

Quote from Dog-One on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 23rd, 2013, 06:40 AM
I will go into this further later...Until then, enjoy!
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.
the 2V threshold of water is the result of the liquid crystallic behaviour of water as explained by Gerald Pollack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnGCMQ8TJ_g GERALD POLLACK: Electrically Structured Water, Part 1 | EU 2013
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 24th, 2013, 12:41 PM
Bussi04,

Can you do the same in multisim?

I will upload that file if anyone wants.  I must warn you though,  it's quite touchy.  Adjust anything too far either way and it changes the signal . That simulation can teach us some good things though.

Note that the simulation components are ideal so there are no parasitics in the circuit.
I have done simulations in which I added the parasitics to make it more 'real world' and I have to say it makes getting the circuit working nearly impossible.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 24th, 2013, 11:12 PM
Bussi04,

Here are my measurements using a 3 inch coaxial cell (identical to Stan's WFC setup) filled with distilled water, tested at 70 degrees F. I connected the cell directly to my 0-60V DC power supply and slowly turned up the voltage as I tried to take note each time the leakage current rose by 10mA.

[attachment=4101]

I think I actually need to do the measurements again, but do them using 5 second pulses or so, then turning the cell off for the same time so we can cause the polarization to go back to 0 each time. If I remember correctly the polarization relaxation time of water is 2 seconds.

-We still have a lot of work to do...

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on August 26th, 2013, 08:44 AM
Hi Guys I just go contacted by a

EMI Filtering company

they are offering to build some test coils for me with stainless and ferrite

Can we put down from
what we know now the target spec should be and I will see what they say

Ideal Wish list please for coils and bobbins sec wise

1 vic bobbin1
Ferrite core desire size
bobbins1-4/5 and the winding and or
target out put we want
out put measurement desired

2 bobbin 2 injector
target wish list as above

I will ask them to suggest the solution from their current tech
and I will post their answer

If may be time to use a modern voltage controller and
get a coil professionally made with target spec in mind we may have much better results as worl has modernised alot now

and yes they have a app for that!! lol

Dan
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on August 26th, 2013, 06:29 PM
Quote from securesupplies on August 26th, 2013, 08:44 AM
Hi Guys I just go contacted by a

EMI Filtering company

they are offering to build some test coils for me with stainless and ferrite

Can we put down from
what we know now the target spec should be and I will see what they say

Ideal Wish list please for coils and bobbins sec wise

1 vic bobbin1
Ferrite core desire size
bobbins1-4/5 and the winding and or
target out put we want
out put measurement desired

2 bobbin 2 injector
target wish list as above

I will ask them to suggest the solution from their current tech
and I will post their answer

If may be time to use a modern voltage controller and
get a coil professionally made with target spec in mind we may have much better results as worl has modernised alot now

and yes they have a app for that!! lol

Dan
Honestly,  I'm not sure what to recommend.  As I mentioned before I'm stuck on the next design (have been for several months). All I know from my testing is that you need something which can provide more current (see my post titled "Notes from the replications of others). It has some good information. I'm still stuck step charging only to 20v.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: FaradayEZ on October 2nd, 2013, 08:44 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on August 26th, 2013, 06:29 PM
Honestly,  I'm not sure what to recommend.  As I mentioned before I'm stuck on the next design (have been for several months). All I know from my testing is that you need something which can provide more current (see my post titled "Notes from the replications of others). It has some good information. I'm still stuck step charging only to 20v.
Then isn't it time to leave the coils and use a circuit board to mimic the coils outcomes?

I thought that was one option lynx thought about to be possible.

Then the parasitic stuff is also gone..
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on October 3rd, 2013, 06:41 PM
Quote
Then isn't it time to leave the coils and use a circuit board to mimic the coils outcomes?

I thought that was one option lynx thought about to be possible.

Then the parasitic stuff is also gone..
Yes, if that is the direction you want to go.

Basically what the VIC does is output a continuous current which resembles a full wave rectified AC waveform.

Meyer's early setup (The Electrical Polarization Process black box) did just that using an autotransformer and a full wave bridge rectifier.

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Farrah Day on October 4th, 2013, 02:57 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on August 24th, 2013, 10:25 AM
The thing most notable to me was how the water capacitor would charge fairly easily to just under two volts potential; above that its internal resistance drops rapidly.  That break in linearity seems like something we should be focusing on; specifically, how do we increase that break point to some higher voltage.
Matt, this is the basis for the operation of commercial  Electric Double-Layer Capacitors. They are only very low voltage, but very high capacitance. The voltage of these caps has to stay below the threshold to initiate electrolysis.

Unlike us, using SS electrodes, commercial EDL capacitors use activated carbon as electrodes as it has a massive surface area (something like the area of a football pitch in a 1 cm cube package!). The total over-voltage potential required to initiate electrolysis is also slightly higher when using carbon electrodes, so electrolysis does not initiate until around 3.5 volts.

I don't think we can raise the threshold at which electrolysis initiates in our WFCs, but if we do some things very fast, we might be able to create other reactions that evolve gas, before Faraday electrolysis has time to take place - or in addition to Faraday electrolysis taking place.

Ironically, many scientists are working to reduce the threshold at which normal electrolysis initiates, with various catalysts, because the lower the over-voltage potential, the more power efficient standard Faraday electrolysis is.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on October 25th, 2013, 01:48 PM
Hi,

I think we need to study the "VIC transformer" in detail.

Here I post a video of the waveform I have, doing some parameter adjustments (pulse frequency, gate duty cycle and voltage amplitude) on the primary coil.

Note. measured between (virtual) gnd and resonant charging choke B+

I need feedback on this, let me know what you think!

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Lynx on October 25th, 2013, 02:52 PM
Quote from Webmug on October 25th, 2013, 01:48 PM
Note. measured between (virtual) gnd and resonant charging choke B+

I need feedback on this, let me know what you think!
Do you feed this to a WFC also?
Are there any increased gas output when step charging takes place?
Thanks.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on October 25th, 2013, 08:03 PM
Quote from Webmug on October 25th, 2013, 01:48 PM
Hi,

I think we need to study the "VIC transformer" in detail.

Here I post a video of the waveform I have, doing some parameter adjustments (pulse frequency, gate duty cycle and voltage amplitude) on the primary coil.

Note. measured between (virtual) gnd and resonant charging choke B+

I need feedback on this, let me know what you think!

Br,
Webmug

Looking good!  How much voltage are you getting across the cell,  600+?

You need to change your circuit so that when the pulse train ends the signal goes to 0V. Then the cell will discharge correctly.  (I also encountered that effect same problem,  I think I solved it by using a NAND gate instead of an AND gate (or maybe it was the other way around).
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on October 27th, 2013, 07:17 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on October 25th, 2013, 08:03 PM
Looking good!  How much voltage are you getting across the cell,  600+?

You need to change your circuit so that when the pulse train ends the signal goes to 0V. Then the cell will discharge correctly.  (I also encountered that effect same problem,  I think I solved it by using a NAND gate instead of an AND gate (or maybe it was the other way around).
No WFC was connected.

This is the output measured over chokes output B+ and B-

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: gpssonar on October 27th, 2013, 09:38 AM
Webmug, Step charging looks great. There should be a neg. potential step charge also which would give you around 1700 volts since your getting 850 volts positive potential. But It may be because your only measuring the positive potential. Good Job your on your way to getting it working.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on October 27th, 2013, 09:57 AM
Quote from gpssonar on October 27th, 2013, 09:38 AM
Webmug, do you have a neg. choke on your setup? Step charging looks great. There should be a neg. potential step charge also which would give you around 1700 volts since your getting 850 volts positive potential. But It may be because your only measuring the positive potential. Good Job your on your way to getting it working.
Yes, I use the "negative" choke in this test .

I'm measuring with a diff probe across the B+ and B-, test 2 video.

First I also thought it outputs negative voltage. But it doesn't output negative voltage only, not the waveform from the "positive" choke seen as inverted.

Would be nice to see if more experimenters have this output and we could compare our findings and "tune" it.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on October 28th, 2013, 10:17 AM
So,  if you're not connected to a wfc you must be charging the probe capacitance.  Looks like there is also a good deal of Leakage there.  What is the capacitance & impedance of your probes?
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Webmug on October 28th, 2013, 10:43 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on October 28th, 2013, 10:17 AM
So,  if you're not connected to a wfc you must be charging the probe capacitance.  Looks like there is also a good deal of Leakage there.  What is the capacitance & impedance of your probes?
Don't think so, then it should charge at 120-180kHz
Input R 27MΩ Â±1%
Input C 2.5 PF Â± 2% 2
Input Impedance 54 MΩ // 1.25 PF
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 1st, 2013, 08:37 PM
As stated in Stan Meyer's "The Birth of a New Technology"; The output on the secondary will be 40kV @ 1mA.:exclamation: Which is 40 watts, so 12v on the primary divided by 40 watts is 3.33 Amps. So 12v @3.33A at the primary is what the Transformer must withstand in order to achieve the required voltage at the needed limited current. Which ends up being 3.6 Ohms of resistance on the primary side of the transformer winding and 3.24k ohms at the secondary for a matched impedance. The transformer Stan mostly talks about is the 1:30 ratio transformer. So this is the ratio i am using for my transformer and calculations as well. Since the ratio of the transformer squared times the primary resistance equals the secondary resistance.  Before resonance is achieved the output current will be around 360V@111ma on the secondary though.  Once resonance is hit it will then start to climb to 40KV@1mA. This is what i arrive at as far as the VIC Transformer operation. Has anybody been able to accurately make a transformer with these specs or similar to reproduce the VIC resonant condition. Maybe, just making the transformer and getting the correct waveforms with amplitude control and duty cycle control on the secondary winding?:huh: I know that was a lot to take in but am trying to reproduce the transformer but i don't have the money for a lot of the materials. It would be easier if i had a 3d printer but i don't have the money. :(
Any ways thanks for your time.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on November 2nd, 2013, 06:57 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 1st, 2013, 08:37 PM
As stated in Stan Meyer's "The Birth of a New Technology"; The output on the secondary will be 40kV @ 1mA.:exclamation: Which is 40 watts, so 12v on the primary divided by 40 watts is 3.33 Amps. So 12v @3.33A at the primary is what the Transformer must withstand in order to achieve the required voltage at the needed limited current. Which ends up being 3.6 Ohms of resistance on the primary side of the transformer winding and 3.24k ohms at the secondary for a matched impedance. The transformer Stan mostly talks about is the 1:30 ratio transformer. So this is the ratio i am using for my transformer and calculations as well. Since the ratio of the transformer squared times the primary resistance equals the secondary resistance.  Before resonance is achieved the output current will be around 360V@111ma on the secondary though.  Once resonance is hit it will then start to climb to 40KV@1mA. This is what i arrive at as far as the VIC Transformer operation. Has anybody been able to accurately make a transformer with these specs or similar to reproduce the VIC resonant condition. Maybe, just making the transformer and getting the correct waveforms with amplitude control and duty cycle control on the secondary winding?:huh: I know that was a lot to take in but am trying to reproduce the transformer but i don't have the money for a lot of the materials. It would be easier if i had a 3d printer but i don't have the money. :(
Any ways thanks for your time.
THANK YOU

THIS WAS A PRODUCTIVE POST
IS THIS FOR  Vic Style 1 or for the Injector bobbin

Dan
www.securesupplies.biz

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 2nd, 2013, 08:28 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 2nd, 2013, 06:57 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 1st, 2013, 08:37 PM
If your able to construct the Transformer with a Primary, Secondary, Feedback, and 2 choke coils, then i would say go about it that way to reduce the potential of high voltage outside the transformer. I was aiming for making the water injector plugs so that could be done. Then after the capacitance of the water injector plugs is found out. I would make the resonant chokes the appropriate inductance value to put the resonant frequency around 5khz. For the transformer i was thinking 900ft of 16 AWG magnet wire for the primary to make up 3.6ohms. The magnet wire is able to withstand 3.7 Amps (very Conservatively) for Power Transmission. The skin effect doesn't start kicking in until 11Khz. We could obviously use a much smaller gauge for the secondary and resonant chokes. I am learning mainly through trail and error. I have never been able to get a transformer to work without it being connected straight to the supply. I have tried using resistors to compensate for the lack of resistance in the transformer but i could never get a working or clean signal. So the good LORD showed me that to prevent the loading of the IC circuitry , preserve energy, and get a clean signal. That i would have to make a transformer with the resistance i need provided by the coils on the transformer itself. I might be shady on some other details but i getting there and with every bodies help here, I'm sure we can figure this out.

Update: Its the VIC Style 1

Update 2: Injector bobbin or "VIC Style 2" is only the Resonant Chokes in a Multi-Spool Assembly. The description goes as followed, Bifilar wound resonant chokes networked together to form a "Voltage Inductment Network" that consists of multiple bifilar wound inductors that contribute to the next coils operation while inhibiting current flow.This stage uses 30 awg magnet wire; while the final stage of the VIC Multi-Coil Spool Assy uses  stainless steel composite coil wire (430 FIFR) that consists of both inductance and resistive properties which aids in amp restriction beyond the singular use of self inductance that have lower resistive values. This Final stage is called Stainless Steel Bifilar Coil-Stage Assy. It is connected between Magnet Coil Stage Assy and Water Gap to obtain optimum voltage to amp differential ratio. When assembled together the magnet wire bifilar coils are placed on the top of the stainless steel bifilar coils to maximize the mutual inductance coil field and to cause coil capacitance to help maintain and even increase pulse voltage amplitude while the resistive value of the S.S. coil wire performs the work of further restricting the flow of amps not inhibited by both self inductance fields.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 2nd, 2013, 09:38 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 2nd, 2013, 08:28 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 2nd, 2013, 06:57 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 1st, 2013, 08:37 PM
If your able to construct the Transformer with a Primary, Secondary, Feedback, and 2 choke coils, then i would say go about it that way to reduce the potential of high voltage outside the transformer. I was aiming for making the water injector plugs so that could be done. Then after the capacitance of the water injector plugs is found out. I would make the resonant chokes the appropriate inductance value to put the resonant frequency around 5khz. For the transformer i was thinking 900ft of 16 AWG magnet wire for the primary to make up 3.6ohms. The magnet wire is able to withstand 3.7 Amps (very Conservatively) for Power Transmission. The skin effect doesn't start kicking in until 11Khz. We could obviously use a much smaller gauge for the secondary and resonant chokes. I am learning mainly through trail and error. I have never been able to get a transformer to work without it being connected straight to the supply. I have tried using resistors to compensate for the lack of resistance in the transformer but i could never get a working or clean signal. So the good LORD showed me that to prevent the loading of the IC circuitry , preserve energy, and get a clean signal. That i would have to make a transformer with the resistance i need provided by the coils on the transformer itself. I might be shady on some other details but i getting there and with every bodies help here, I'm sure we can figure this out.

Update: Its the VIC Style 1

Update 2: Injector bobbin or "VIC Style 2" is only the Resonant Chokes in a Multi-Spool Assembly. The description goes as followed, Bifilar wound resonant chokes networked together to form a "Voltage Inductment Network" that consists of multiple bifilar wound inductors that contribute to the next coils operation while inhibiting current flow.This stage uses 30 awg magnet wire; while the final stage of the VIC Multi-Coil Spool Assy uses  stainless steel composite coil wire (430 FIFR) that consists of both inductance and resistive properties which aids in amp restriction beyond the singular use of self inductance that have lower resistive values. This Final stage is called Stainless Steel Bifilar Coil-Stage Assy. It is connected between Magnet Coil Stage Assy and Water Gap to obtain optimum voltage to amp differential ratio. When assembled together the magnet wire bifilar coils are placed on the top of the stainless steel bifilar coils to maximize the mutual inductance coil field and to cause coil capacitance to help maintain and even increase pulse voltage amplitude while the resistive value of the S.S. coil wire performs the work of further restricting the flow of amps not inhibited by both self inductance fields.
Sounds like a good plan Sirgoose, don't know of but a few working on the injectors, keep at it and good work/ thinking thus far. :cool::D:P
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 2nd, 2013, 09:57 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 2nd, 2013, 09:38 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 2nd, 2013, 08:28 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 2nd, 2013, 06:57 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 1st, 2013, 08:37 PM
If your able to construct the Transformer with a Primary, Secondary, Feedback, and 2 choke coils, then i would say go about it that way to reduce the potential of high voltage outside the transformer. I was aiming for making the water injector plugs so that could be done. Then after the capacitance of the water injector plugs is found out. I would make the resonant chokes the appropriate inductance value to put the resonant frequency around 5khz. For the transformer i was thinking 900ft of 16 AWG magnet wire for the primary to make up 3.6ohms. The magnet wire is able to withstand 3.7 Amps (very Conservatively) for Power Transmission. The skin effect doesn't start kicking in until 11Khz. We could obviously use a much smaller gauge for the secondary and resonant chokes. I am learning mainly through trail and error. I have never been able to get a transformer to work without it being connected straight to the supply. I have tried using resistors to compensate for the lack of resistance in the transformer but i could never get a working or clean signal. So the good LORD showed me that to prevent the loading of the IC circuitry , preserve energy, and get a clean signal. That i would have to make a transformer with the resistance i need provided by the coils on the transformer itself. I might be shady on some other details but i getting there and with every bodies help here, I'm sure we can figure this out.

Update: Its the VIC Style 1

Update 2: Injector bobbin or "VIC Style 2" is only the Resonant Chokes in a Multi-Spool Assembly. The description goes as followed, Bifilar wound resonant chokes networked together to form a "Voltage Inductment Network" that consists of multiple bifilar wound inductors that contribute to the next coils operation while inhibiting current flow.This stage uses 30 awg magnet wire; while the final stage of the VIC Multi-Coil Spool Assy uses  stainless steel composite coil wire (430 FIFR) that consists of both inductance and resistive properties which aids in amp restriction beyond the singular use of self inductance that have lower resistive values. This Final stage is called Stainless Steel Bifilar Coil-Stage Assy. It is connected between Magnet Coil Stage Assy and Water Gap to obtain optimum voltage to amp differential ratio. When assembled together the magnet wire bifilar coils are placed on the top of the stainless steel bifilar coils to maximize the mutual inductance coil field and to cause coil capacitance to help maintain and even increase pulse voltage amplitude while the resistive value of the S.S. coil wire performs the work of further restricting the flow of amps not inhibited by both self inductance fields.
Sounds like a good plan Sirgoose, don't know of but a few working on the injectors, keep at and good work/ thinking thus far. :cool::D:P
I'm sorry that was a typo. I meant to say "I would aim for making the water injector plugs so that could be done. " I have been working on the technology and electronics design, but i am not a metal former or machinist. I know all the theory though to a tee pretty much.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 3rd, 2013, 06:58 AM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 2nd, 2013, 09:57 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 2nd, 2013, 09:38 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 2nd, 2013, 08:28 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 2nd, 2013, 06:57 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 1st, 2013, 08:37 PM
If your able to construct the Transformer with a Primary, Secondary, Feedback, and 2 choke coils, then i would say go about it that way to reduce the potential of high voltage outside the transformer. I was aiming for making the water injector plugs so that could be done. Then after the capacitance of the water injector plugs is found out. I would make the resonant chokes the appropriate inductance value to put the resonant frequency around 5khz. For the transformer i was thinking 900ft of 16 AWG magnet wire for the primary to make up 3.6ohms. The magnet wire is able to withstand 3.7 Amps (very Conservatively) for Power Transmission. The skin effect doesn't start kicking in until 11Khz. We could obviously use a much smaller gauge for the secondary and resonant chokes. I am learning mainly through trail and error. I have never been able to get a transformer to work without it being connected straight to the supply. I have tried using resistors to compensate for the lack of resistance in the transformer but i could never get a working or clean signal. So the good LORD showed me that to prevent the loading of the IC circuitry , preserve energy, and get a clean signal. That i would have to make a transformer with the resistance i need provided by the coils on the transformer itself. I might be shady on some other details but i getting there and with every bodies help here, I'm sure we can figure this out.

Update: Its the VIC Style 1

Update 2: Injector bobbin or "VIC Style 2" is only the Resonant Chokes in a Multi-Spool Assembly. The description goes as followed, Bifilar wound resonant chokes networked together to form a "Voltage Inductment Network" that consists of multiple bifilar wound inductors that contribute to the next coils operation while inhibiting current flow.This stage uses 30 awg magnet wire; while the final stage of the VIC Multi-Coil Spool Assy uses  stainless steel composite coil wire (430 FIFR) that consists of both inductance and resistive properties which aids in amp restriction beyond the singular use of self inductance that have lower resistive values. This Final stage is called Stainless Steel Bifilar Coil-Stage Assy. It is connected between Magnet Coil Stage Assy and Water Gap to obtain optimum voltage to amp differential ratio. When assembled together the magnet wire bifilar coils are placed on the top of the stainless steel bifilar coils to maximize the mutual inductance coil field and to cause coil capacitance to help maintain and even increase pulse voltage amplitude while the resistive value of the S.S. coil wire performs the work of further restricting the flow of amps not inhibited by both self inductance fields.
Sounds like a good plan Sirgoose, don't know of but a few working on the injectors, keep at and good work/ thinking thus far. :cool::D:P
I'm sorry that was a typo. I meant to say "I would aim for making the water injector plugs so that could be done. " I have been working on the technology and electronics design, but i am not a metal former or machinist. I know all the theory though to a tee pretty much.
I still want to encourage anyone who has the will to, to work out solutions for the injectors, for this is the end result of Meyer's work and will bring us much closer to a climax of such, thanks Sirgoose. :cool::D:P
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on November 4th, 2013, 01:55 AM
OK Sir Goose

I have access to skill coil builder and factories enough to get samples ,
which we should all work on . They may have skills to improve the performance of our desired specs faster

It is very hard work to keep it simple.

cell vic and the injector vic

target rating measurements and any suggest wire sizes.

1
4 bobbin cell vic spec

2
INjector boobin spec

I will than pursue factories here with every one to get some thing to test

back

Dan

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 23rd, 2013, 09:36 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 4th, 2013, 01:55 AM
OK Sir Goose

I have access to skill coil builder and factories enough to get samples ,
which we should all work on . They may have skills to improve the performance of our desired specs faster

It is very hard work to keep it simple.

cell vic and the injector vic

target rating measurements and any suggest wire sizes.

1
4 bobbin cell vic spec

2
INjector boobin spec

I will than pursue factories here with every one to get some thing to test

back

Dan
Thanks great Dan, I'm sorry for the really late respond; i didn't get a email response that you had replied. I have been working things out with the transformer specs, the type, and gauge of wire needed to achieve needed results.

I have made an Excel spreadsheet that will give an exact resistance rating of the transformer primary and what the resistance of the secondary should be based on that.
I have strong reason to believe that because of the audio frequencies that Stan was using he was able to squeeze more ampacity out of the wire gauge he was using for his primary winding. I came to this conclusion because after i finished the Excel Sheet, I plugged in all the values and everything using the original Vic bobbin with the Pri, Sec, Feedback, and two resonant chokes.

With the industry standard of a wires ampacity (Power Transmission Rating) and its resistance. I had to use 16 AWG wire for a 3.7 Amp rating and 4 Ohms per 1000ft. With this i came no where near my mark of 3.6 Ohms for 3.3 Amps off of a 12v battery. So i switched to 26 awg and that got me 5.747408333 ohms with a bobbin fulled to the brim. So we can work around in that area.

The Excel spreadsheet isn't completely fool proof but it works perfectly if your careful to watch out for the Layers Cell and how many Layers are actually being added.

P.S. I will get the other dimensions when i can find the time.

P.S.S I took down the excel spreadsheet because i uploaded the newest one in a later post.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on November 24th, 2013, 10:38 AM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 23rd, 2013, 09:36 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 4th, 2013, 01:55 AM
OK Sir Goose

I have access to skill coil builder and factories enough to get samples ,
which we should all work on . They may have skills to improve the performance of our desired specs faster

It is very hard work to keep it simple.

cell vic and the injector vic

target rating measurements and any suggest wire sizes.

1
4 bobbin cell vic spec

2
INjector boobin spec

I will than pursue factories here with every one to get some thing to test

back

Dan
Thanks great Dan, I'm sorry for the really late respond; i didn't get a email response that you had replied. I have been working things out with the transformer specs, the type, and gauge of wire needed to achieve needed results.

I have made an Excel spreadsheet that will give an exact resistance rating of the transformer primary and what the resistance of the secondary should be based on that.
I have strong reason to believe that because of the audio frequencies that Stan was using he was able to squeeze more ampacity out of the wire gauge he was using for his primary winding. I came to this conclusion because after i finished the Excel Sheet, I plugged in all the values and everything using the original Vic bobbin with the Pri, Sec, Feedback, and two resonant chokes.

With the industry standard of a wires ampacity (Power Transmission Rating) and its resistance. I had to use 16 AWG wire for a 3.7 Amp rating and 4 Ohms per 1000ft. With this i came no where near my mark of 3.6 Ohms for 3.3 Amps off of a 12v battery. So i switched to 26 awg and that got me 5.747408333 ohms with a bobbin fulled to the brim. So we can work around in that area.

The Excel spreadsheet isn't completely fool proof but it works perfectly if your careful to watch out for the Layers Cell and how many Layers are actually being added.

P.S. I will get the other dimensions when i can find the time.
this is a good start we needed this along time ago can we build on the extra value  and add in tab\ for round bobbins

dan

Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 24th, 2013, 12:27 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 24th, 2013, 10:38 AM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 23rd, 2013, 09:36 PM
Quote from securesupplies on November 4th, 2013, 01:55 AM
this is a good start we needed this along time ago can we build on the extra value  and add in tab\ for round bobbins

dan
I went ahead once i found the time to finish up the Excel sheet fully. It has no more glitches or problems that i know of just plug in the awg of wire along with the diameter of the wire, which is all included in the excel spreadsheet along with a 3d model of the bobbin i am basing it off of. You are more then welcome to add on to it just cite me as the original creator.

Round bobbin would just require different math equations to figure out the height and width of bobbin, but nothing that difficult.

P.S. If you do run into an error or problem, make sure you have iteration clicked with 100 maximum iterations. You can get to it by going to  Tools -> Options -> Calculations tab ->Look down to center of options menu and click Iteration.

EDIT: Newest version is out so version 2 is outdated. So that is why I am removing it.
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 24th, 2013, 02:27 PM
I am currently working on make a Round Bobbin Tab for the Excel Spreadsheet that will be able to calculate the length of wire used, and resistance obtained.

Jesus Loves You
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on November 24th, 2013, 09:17 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 24th, 2013, 02:27 PM
I am currently working on make a Round Bobbin Tab for the Excel Spreadsheet that will be able to calculate the length of wire used, and resistance obtained.

Here is the Updated Version 3 Calculator with Round bobbins

EDIT: I took down version 3 because i now have version 3.1 up!
Title: RE: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Sirgoose on December 6th, 2013, 12:51 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 24th, 2013, 09:17 PM
Quote from Sirgoose on November 24th, 2013, 02:27 PM
I am currently working on make a Round Bobbin Tab for the Excel Spreadsheet that will be able to calculate the length of wire used, and resistance obtained.

Here is the Updated Version 3 Calculator with Round bobbins

EDIT: I took down version 3 because i now have version 3.1 up!
To any one who downloaded my original Version 3 Calculator with round bobbins. The found out the formula was messed up, but i fixed it. So if your using V3 you will want to download V3.1 as it has the Round Bobbin fix.

Plus i added resistance of inductor per layer of wrapped wire & Number of turns per layer as well!
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on January 31st, 2014, 06:15 PM
This thread got a little off topic so I'm going to share my recent work to get everyone caught back up.

I have been designing VIC's (Pulse transformers with external chokes) for over a year now. I use external chokes because that is the only way I have been able to achieve the doubling effect.

It sucks this site has changed because all my pictures on previous posts showing step charging have been lost. And I don't see any way to add more >:(

It seems with each design I encounter new problems. Let me just say there are a lot of considerations to make.

I have to also say that Stan’s 5 coil VIC is really bad. Anyone who has designed coils can see the problems with it. I tried it about 2 years ago, building it exactly to spec and what was the result? Nothing except a learning experience on what a bad coil design looks like.

My VIC design experiments:

At first I built some high inductance VIC's (several hundred mH per coil). These VIC's would not step charge over about 5 volts. The high L coils limit the current too much. Also, in order to avoid saturation the coils had to have a lot of turns. This limits current, turns ratios, and introduces more parasitic elements that distort the square wave.

So, I reduced the inductance in order to get more current to the cell. Then I achieved step charging up to 20V.

In my most recent design I included the external chokes as part of the secondary impedance calculations. This way I could achieve a high turns ratio and a low secondary inductance (for even higher current). I designed the coil to output 250mA at 150 volts.

In my past designs I calculated the primary coil magnetizing current. There are many considerations in coil design, and for some reason I overlooked it in this design. I was thinking that the choke inductance should be included in the calculations of the secondary coil (even though they are external). This would allow me to achieve a higher turns ratio and secondary current. At least I thought.

Once I tested the latest VIC I realized I forgot to consider magnetizing current. I included the choke inductance as part of the secondary coil, but the chokes were separate so they messed up the impedance ratio of the coil.

The impedance ratio of a coil is the turns ratio squared. This coil has a turns ratio of 1:15, so the impedance ratio should have been 1:225. However, since the coil was designed incorrectly the impedance ratio turned out to be 1:880. This caused the coils to be imbalanced. The secondary current would not increase above 50mA, even when the primary voltage and current were increased.

So, another failed design. Next I thought, perhaps I can just make the choke inductances a fraction of the total secondary inductance. Allowing the secondary coil to take up about 90% of the total secondary L.

So, I quickly redesigned the chokes to a much smaller value. Result, over 100mA at the secondary coil and pulses reaching peaks over 50V. But now I was no longer step charging. What had I done wrong? What did I forget to include in my design?

Well, everyone knows inductors store energy. The amount of energy an inductor stores is W=LI^2. The energy the chokes store is discharged when the circuit is switched off. If designed correctly the current flowing through the circuit rises and falls, but never goes to zero while the cap is charging.
The correct waveform is actually very similar to a Full wave rectified AC waveform. Stan’s early circuits which used autotransformers and FWBR’s produced that exact waveform, and the later VIC’s were designed to do the same.

So, where had I gone wrong? After closer inspection of the waveform I realized that I was still getting the doubling effect, but the second half of the pulse was very weak in amplitude, so it allowed the cap to completely discharge between each pulse.

When I reduced the choke inductance I reduced the amount of energy they store even though the current moving through it increased.

Now I am on to another design. I am considering working on a design in which all coils are on the same core. The problem with this is that the choke coils will act as additional secondary coils instead of chokes. Meaning they will not create the doubling effect we need. So they have to be designed correctly. More considerations to take into account.

I typed a lot here, but if I were to go into the math and considerations on the coil design this forum would be taken over by it. It is not a simple task like I thought when I first started. Each time I think I have the coil design figured out I start testing all the problems show themselves.

Has anyone else here tried to design VIC coils?
Anyone else got the doubling effect?

So far I have only seen 2 replications using hand made coils.
Jon Abel and irondmax (5 coil VIC)

I am not sure about irondmax’s 5 coil VIC replication. He shows it working because he introduced a gap in the core (reducing inductance allows more current to flow). However, I wonder how long it could go before the coils get too hot and burn up.

Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: gpssonar on January 31st, 2014, 07:09 PM
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on January 31st, 2014, 08:16 PM
Thanks for the comments and suggestions, and Nice vid btw.

There is one thing for sure, the VIC with all coils on the same core makes the design much easier. The only problem, I have never been able to get the doubling effect with all coils on the same core. Have you?

Today I also figured out how to determine the capacitance of a wfc.

First you calculate the impedance of the cell by measuring the current and voltage peaks across the cell (without chokes connected). Then use Ohm's law to calculate the impedance V/I=Z. In my cell the impedance calculates to 150 ohms.

From here you measure the discharge time of the wfc. My cell discharged in 300uS. t=RC is rearranged to C=t x R

3uS x 150 ohms = 450uF.

This may be a good way to estimate/calculate capacitance. My studies have shown that there are a number of variables that effect capacitance. Future testing will prove this out how accurate this method is in estimating capacitance.
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: gpssonar on January 31st, 2014, 08:39 PM
Yes I have seen the frequency doubling, but only appears when the cell starts to charge. I will have to try your way on the capacitance and see if it comes out to my numbers when I work it out for my cells. If it does then we have two ways to do it. In the tech. brief Stan shows a formula how to determine the capacitance of the cell. It took me forever to figure out what he was doing. His formula only does the math for one surface area. I think I know why, but I want to be 100% sure before I post about it.
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on January 31st, 2014, 09:02 PM

So far it seems the chokes can't be too large or too small. They have to be just right. If they are too big they will limit current too much and prevent the cell from charging. If they are too small they will not store enough energy to produce the necessary current during discharge for the doubling effect which will also limit or prevent charging.

I'm trying to find out if there is a relationship between secondary coil inductance and choke inductance. I have had the best results when they all have equal inductance. But I have not experimented with choke inductance larger than secondary coil inductance yet. I don't think it will work if the chokes are on a separate core as it will throw the impedance ratios off.

Ok, next design....All coils on the same core.

_______________________________
Update: Tonight I designed a VIC with all coils on the same core. Result, no step charging.
There must be some way to get the chokes to act as chokes and not just secondary coils. However, that will require more research.
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on February 1st, 2014, 03:55 PM
Just uploaded a video showing step charging and explaining frequency doubling.

.....Also, in my recent testing I took my chokes and removed the turns in increments. At each increment I tested the circuit with the reduced choke inductance. Result: The voltage at the cell increased with a decrease in choke inductance but only to a certain point. After that the step charging stopped (likely because the chokes were not storing and therefore discharging enough energy). However, I noticed when I increased the frequency about 3 fold I had step charging again, but, it did not build up to the same voltage as the previous tests using higher choke inductance.

Seems the more I learn the more questions I have???
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: geenee on February 1st, 2014, 09:00 PM
great work,HMS-776.

i like your video.Stan tell the truth.do you think "choke coils act like bridge rectified diode"?8xa version Stan used bridge rectify,imho.

thanks
geenee
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on February 1st, 2014, 10:51 PM
Yes,

When the circuit is working correctly the current through the inductor looks like a full wave rectified ac waveform.

Just like you said.
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on February 20th, 2014, 11:30 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on January 31st, 2014, 09:02 PM

So far it seems the chokes can't be too large or too small. They have to be just right. If they are too big they will limit current too much and prevent the cell from charging. If they are too small they will not store enough energy to produce the necessary current during discharge for the doubling effect which will also limit or prevent charging.

I'm trying to find out if there is a relationship between secondary coil inductance and choke inductance. I have had the best results when they all have equal inductance. But I have not experimented with choke inductance larger than secondary coil inductance yet. I don't think it will work if the chokes are on a separate core as it will throw the impedance ratios off.

Ok, next design....All coils on the same core.

_______________________________
Update: Tonight I designed a VIC with all coils on the same core. Result, no step charging.
There must be some way to get the chokes to act as chokes and not just secondary coils. However, that will require more research.
HELLO

I am Seeing convergence of knowledge all the time,

I have made a Page it is a lot to digest takes about 3 days to watch video sand than think about the effect of what you learn

here is it

http://www.securesupplies.biz/#!tpu-steven-mark-wiki/c1pgy

there are many video explaining how to build and collector and frequency doubler antenna arrange and coils.
I think it is very interesting particulary the

math for the frequency doubling

please off you feed back on if this math and basic amp restricting wiring through magnetics

can explain the core and the cell  and what is happening with the frequency each time

it spikes and bounces  from (magnet) Coil restrictor  on VIc)

Dan

Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: HMS-776 on February 24th, 2014, 06:44 PM
All I can say is that the amp restricting and frequency doubling as Stan calls it is basic knowledge. It is used in capacitor charging circuits already. There is no secret there. Those videos show circuits that seem to be much more complex than what Stan was doing. Great site by the way, lots of info!

If you look at the forums online you might notice a common theme. Most of the people are just trolling through Stan's documents and pictures, looking for 'the secret' of Stan's work. Type in 'Stan Meyer's secret' online and you'll find numerous videos, posts and websites. All of them looking to find the answer in a way which will fit into their understanding, then explaining it the same way, and no one is getting anywhere because of it.

IMO we need to look at known science. Without following their standards for progression we are stuck in limbo.
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: Matt Watts on February 24th, 2014, 06:55 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 24th, 2014, 06:44 PM
IMO we need to look at known science. Without following their standards for progression we are stuck in limbo.
That and we also need to identify the areas of science that were deliberately simplified to exclude necessary phenomenology.  Go all the way back to James Clerk Maxwell if necessary.
Title: Re: VIC testing (Findings and notes)
Post by: securesupplies on March 6th, 2014, 10:36 PM

I think we can see the path to use current past and new amp restricting methods
most are known now.

Dan