Well,

Still working on finding resonance.

When using a function generator in conjunction with a spectrum analyzer some interesting things happen. The spectrum analyzer shows that as the applied frequency changes the peaks also change. To me this suggests the capacitance changes drastically with frequency (and it's not linear). That is one reason why it's so hard to find resonance on this circuit.

Another interesting thing is that the circuit acts as a filter. At times the square waves turn into sine waves, or amplitude modulation. And at some frequencies the square wave is multiple times lower in frequency than the applied square wave. For instance at 20.5kHz applied the wave across the cap is 37Hz.
[attachment=1987]
Above: Notice the applied frequency of 20.5kHz and the width of the pulse (27mS) is 37Hz.

Not sure exactly what's going on here. But the capacitor is definately a non-linear device. More to come.

Quote from HMS-776 on July 20th, 2012, 10:00 PM

Well,

Still working on finding resonance.

When using a function generator in conjunction with a spectrum analyzer some interesting things happen. The spectrum analyzer shows that as the applied frequency changes the peaks also change. To me this suggests the capacitance changes drastically with frequency (and it's not linear). That is one reason why it's so hard to find resonance on this circuit.

Another interesting thing is that the circuit acts as a filter. At times the square waves turn into sine waves, or amplitude modulation. And at some frequencies the square wave is multiple times lower in frequency than the applied square wave. For instance at 20.5kHz applied the wave across the cap is 37Hz.

Above: Notice the applied frequency of 20.5kHz and the width of the pulse (27mS) is 37Hz.

Not sure exactly what's going on here. But the capacitor is definately a non-linear device. More to come.

HMS-776 what you used for "X" and "Y", it is not clear.
Should have used for horizontal = "X" the function generator. and vertical = "Y" connection with the capacitor or the output transformer.
And I'm not seeing anything on your spectrum analyzer.

I will post more later.

That one was just to show the frequency change at the capacitor.

Quote from HMS-776 on July 21st, 2012, 10:08 AM

I will post more later.

That one was just to show the frequency change at the capacitor.

If i remember right Stan said in one of his patents..to change the frequency you have to change the capacitance or the inductance...
Good luck with your testing!!!

[attachment=2001]So, Using a function generator and oscilloscope (I am using the parallax propscope) I was able to locate resonance between my cell and choke L1. This is the resonance others have found, and it is also the resonance Stan states in the tech brief.

I redesigned my VIC as I thought the chokes were way to big. Took the primary down to 20AWG and the chokes to about 1000 turns each to achieve 120mH.

It turns out the capacitance drops dramatically and instead of resonance being at the calaculated frequency of just over 4kHz it turned out to be 40kHz. The capacitance dropped from 14nF to 140pF, 100 times drop in capacitance.

Has anyone else noted similiar effects with the water capacitor?

Hi,

Finally I measured all my coils and WFC with different types of water in it.
Took me a lot of time to do all the measurements!!!

I hope I see more measurements from other members...

Note: See attachment for details (warning large file) :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug

Thanks for posting that webmug.

Your measurements confirm that the capacitance decreases with applied frequency.
I see in your capacitor using rain water at 100Hz the capacitance was 1491uF while at 10kHz it dropped to 1.45nF........... .001491 / .00000000145 = 1,028,275. Over one million times the decrease in capacitance over a 10kHz range.  Now I can see why the chokes have such high inducatance.

I onlywish someone out there had a digital capacimeter capable of measuring at 1kHz increments so we could graph the different water types and see if there is a relationship between them and applied frequency. This would help a great deal in calculaing necessary choke size for a chosen frequency.

Update....Using some simple math I determined there is no relationship of cell capacitance when compared with different waters at the same frequency.

Quote from HMS-776 on July 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM

Thanks for posting that webmug.

Your measurements confirm that the capacitance decreases with applied frequency.
I see in your capacitor using rain water at 100Hz the capacitance was 1491uF while at 10kHz it dropped to 1.45nF........... .001491 / .00000000145 = 1,028,275. Over one million times the decrease in capacitance over a 10kHz range. This changes completly the math involved in calculating the choke inductance for a given resonant frequency. Now I can also see why the chokes in the coils have such high values.

I onlywish someone out there had a digital capacimeter capable of measuring at 1kHz increments so we could graph the different water types and see if there is a relationship between them and applied frequency. This would help a great deal in calculaing necessary choke size for a chosen frequency.

Update....Using some simple math I determined there is no relationship of cell capacitance when compared with different waters at the same frequency.

HMS-776
what about the freq doubling after the chokes?you measured that?I don't have a scope so i cannot measure:( .From what i see there must not be a freq doubling,and from what Stan's says about the magnetic field colapsing,doubling the freq,i think is not true,when one pulse is going to the choke it reaches the cell too,right?in that time a magnetic field is produced,when the pulse is turned off the curent stops flowing tru the coil,the only thing remaining is just the magnetic field...so two separated things..so where is the doubling?

Quote from HMS-776 on July 24th, 2012, 10:30 PM

So, Using a function generator and oscilloscope (I am using the parallax propscope) I was able to locate resonance between my cell and choke L1. This is the resonance others have found, and it is also the resonance Stan states in the tech brief.

I redesigned my VIC as I thought the chokes were way to big. Took the primary down to 20AWG and the chokes to about 1000 turns each to achieve 120mH.

It turns out the capacitance drops dramatically and instead of resonance being at the calaculated frequency of just over 4kHz it turned out to be 40kHz. The capacitance dropped from 14nF to 140pF, 100 times drop in capacitance.

Has anyone else noted similiar effects with the water capacitor?

Hi HMS,

Where did you connect the scope probe?
Doesn't look like resonance. If you have resonance you have AC.

The DC pulse on the primary is converted to AC at the secondary coil. This AC swing is then 'rectified' by the blocking diode. The gated AC signal from the secondary is the charger signal for the resonant chokes.

Also check Stan's patents for GND connected between secondary and NEG choke.

Br,
Webmug

The major problem is where to tune into. If this is the self capacitance of a coil or total coils capacitance or WFC capacitance?

Inductance / capacitance between diode choke POS and WFC.

:exclamation: My findings of the operation of the VIC (which is based on radar PFN [Pulse Forming Network] modulators) :exclamation:

Resonance on the secondary coil is the key to have AC maximum voltage swing and use this signal as a charger component (voltage amplitude and resonance frequency).
(Stan stated if you change the windings count of the secondary / primary you can create more voltage potential) This said, alters the resonance frequency so a PLL is required to maintain resonance conditions. Think about this: why is the feedback coil between the primary and secondary coil! If secondary is on resonance it is voltage amplitude independent.

Then the choke and WFC must be tuned on the charger signal to establish resonant charging. It can be DC resonant charging. AC resonant charging is also possible, but this is even more difficult!

Stan wanted minimum amps and maximum voltage potential to develop at the exciters (and restricting amps using opposite chokes, voltage) and this can only be done using resonant charging by means of a charging frequency on resonance. If you read this it's difficult to understand but there are two resonance circuits connected to each other on the same or double tuned frequency.

He also is using a blocking diode so AC resonant charging is more likely. Stan states: the blocking diode prevent shorting the secondary coil and prevents discharging the WFC and creates a double pulse from the choke due the magnetic coupling.
If this is so, a blocking diode is needed to prevent a short when the gate switch(no signal) disable the charging signal and POS resonant choke discharges into the WFC. The NEG choke mirrors the POS choke (equal but opposite voltage) by using the magnetic field and restricts amps in the process.

Conditions for tuning the coils / capacitance / inductance and the WFC water type must be maintained. These are altered by the type of core inserted in the VIC transformer. If the chokes are connected to the secondary coil all conditions are changed because of the core coupling.

If the conditions are matched/tuned on the secondary charger signal, we can tune the gate for resonant charging (voltage potential) and charge the WFC with UNIPOLAR PULSES (discharging the chokes).

"The simplest type of a-c inductance charging is a-c resonant charging, in which the charging circuit is tuned to resonance at the impressed a-c frequency.

The network voltage reaches a maximum value when the impressed sinusoidal voltage is passing through zero. The pulses therefore occur whenever the impressed voltage is zero. Although the pulse recurrence frequency is usually equal to the impressed a-c frequency, it is sometimes double the impressed frequency, in which case there is one pulse for each half cycle of the applied-voltage wave. The disadvantage of a-c resonant charging is that the voltage across the network continues to build up if the switch misses one or several pulses.”

Here PULSE is read as a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

So if the switch misses several pulses the voltage continues to build up and charges the WFC to a point what the components can handle.

The PULSE frequency on the primary coil is in phase with the other coils.

Cheers!

Br,
Webmug

[attachment=2020]

The circuit above is a schematic of what I used to find the resonant frequency.
It is a well known way to find the resonance of an LC circuit...

Adys15, Since the circuit was pulsed with AC there is no frequency doubling.

Webmug, the scope does not show AC because I was not exactly at the right frequency, but the spectrum analyzer still shows the peaks that occur within the circuit.

BTW everyone, I think that inverse relationship between capacitance and frequency is one reason why Meyer states the circuit should be kept in the audio range.

Quote from Webmug on July 28th, 2012, 01:12 PM

The major problem is where to tune into. If this is the self capacitance of a coil or total coils capacitance or WFC capacitance?

Inductance / capacitance between diode choke POS and WFC.

:exclamation: My findings of the operation of the VIC (which is based on radar PFN [Pulse Forming Network] modulators) :exclamation:

Resonance on the secondary coil is the key to have AC maximum voltage swing and use this signal as a charger component (voltage amplitude and resonance frequency).
(Stan stated if you change the windings count of the secondary / primary you can create more voltage potential) This said, alters the resonance frequency so a PLL is required to maintain resonance conditions. Think about this: why is the feedback coil between the primary and secondary coil! If secondary is on resonance it is voltage amplitude independent.

Then the choke and WFC must be tuned on the charger signal to establish resonant charging. It can be DC resonant charging. AC resonant charging is also possible, but this is even more difficult!

Stan wanted minimum amps and maximum voltage potential to develop at the exciters (and restricting amps using opposite chokes, voltage) and this can only be done using resonant charging by means of a charging frequency on resonance. If you read this it's difficult to understand but there are two resonance circuits connected to each other on the same or double tuned frequency.

He also is using a blocking diode so AC resonant charging is more likely. Stan states: the blocking diode prevent shorting the secondary coil and prevents discharging the WFC and creates a double pulse from the choke due the magnetic coupling.
If this is so, a blocking diode is needed to prevent a short when the gate switch(no signal) disable the charging signal and POS resonant choke discharges into the WFC. The NEG choke mirrors the POS choke (equal but opposite voltage) by using the magnetic field and restricts amps in the process.

Conditions for tuning the coils / capacitance / inductance and the WFC water type must be maintained. These are altered by the type of core inserted in the VIC transformer. If the chokes are connected to the secondary coil all conditions are changed because of the core coupling.

If the conditions are matched/tuned on the secondary charger signal, we can tune the gate for resonant charging (voltage potential) and charge the WFC with UNIPOLAR PULSES (discharging the chokes).

"The simplest type of a-c inductance charging is a-c resonant charging, in which the charging circuit is tuned to resonance at the impressed a-c frequency.

The network voltage reaches a maximum value when the impressed sinusoidal voltage is passing through zero. The pulses therefore occur whenever the impressed voltage is zero. Although the pulse recurrence frequency is usually equal to the impressed a-c frequency, it is sometimes double the impressed frequency, in which case there is one pulse for each half cycle of the applied-voltage wave. The disadvantage of a-c resonant charging is that the voltage across the network continues to build up if the switch misses one or several pulses.”

Here PULSE is read as a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

So if the switch misses several pulses the voltage continues to build up and charges the WFC to a point what the components can handle.

The PULSE frequency on the primary coil is in phase with the other coils.

Cheers!

Br,
Webmug

The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 1-2: Re:Hydrogen Fracturing Process Memo WFC 420 :exclamation:

"...The Inductor( C ) takes on or becomes an Modulator Inductor which steps up an oscillation of an given charging frequency with effective capacitance of an pulse-forming network in order to charge the voltage zones (E/E2) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input.

The Inductance ( C ) and Capacitance ( ER ) properties of the LC circuit is therefore "tuned" to resonance at a certain frequency. The Resonant Frequency can be raised or lowered by changing the inductance and/or the capacitance values. The established resonant frequency is, of course, independent of voltage amplitude..."

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 3-7: Re:WFC Hydrogen Gas Management System Memo WFC 422 DA :exclamation:

:exclamation: The Birth of New Technology: Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief: Page 7-3: RE: VIC Matrix Circuit Memo WFC 426 :exclamation:  
"..pulse forming network (64a xxx 64n) of Figure ( 7 -1 ) as to ( 600 ) of Figure ( 6-3 ) in order to charge Voltage Zones ( E9/E10 ) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input.."

Fig.7-5 660 : Inductance Charging Effect

Additional documents attached!

"a-c resonance charging" Page 19. in "line-type-radar-modulators-49_Brown.pdf"

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3818#pid3818
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3846#pid3846

Page 96.
A Textbook of Radar: A Collective Work by the Staff of the Radiophysics Laboratory, C. S. I. R. O., Australia

Br,
Webmug

I see what your saying Webmug,

Many of us have drawn the conclusion from Meyer's explanations that the VIC is an adaptation of a DC resonant charging circuit. However, there are several things that make it very difficult to achieve resonance which causes people to believe otherwise.

First off the capacitor is non-linear. The non-linearity of the capacitor can easily cause harmonics to show up. Also, the fact that your applying a square wave increases the chances of harmonics. The coils themselves are equivalent to bandpass filters which can produce harmonics and create amplitude modulation if they are not correctly damped.

And lastly, we know the capacitance is inversely related to frequency.

So overall the circuit and processes seem simple, but getting it to work is really an engineering feat. There is one person I have been into contact with who replicated Meyer years back. He stated that it took years of electronics experience just to tune the circuit into resonance. And even then he said it took him over a year to get it working.

Quote from HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 02:45 PM

I see what your saying Webmug,

Many of us have drawn the conclusion from Meyer's explanations that the VIC is an adaptation of a DC resonant charging circuit. However, there are several things that make it very difficult to achieve resonance which causes people to believe otherwise.

First off the capacitor is non-linear. The non-linearity of the capacitor can easily cause harmonics to show up. Also, the fact that your applying a square wave increases the chances of harmonics. The coils themselves are equivalent to bandpass filters which can produce harmonics and create amplitude modulation if they are not correctly damped.

And lastly, we know the capacitance is inversely related to frequency.

So overall the circuit and processes seem simple, but getting it to work is really an engineering feat. There is one person I have been into contact with who replicated Meyer years back. He stated that it took years of electronics experience just to tune the circuit into resonance. And even then he said it took over a year to get it working.

In my opinion it is not dc charging but it is ac charging. The choke operates as a pfn what generates unipolar pulses at the exciters when the gate time is tuned on the right phase to discharge the pfn. The coil should have capacitance and inductance to form a pfn.

It would be a big leap if you can get in contact with that person and could provide more information to reproduce his findings... ???

Br,
Webmug

I have been in contact with him for some time. He actually gave up on the project years ago as he said it was far too much work with little results (Sounds familiar).

The immersed cells are just too touchy. Seems to me that the greater the volume of water in the cell the more non-linear it is. That's why as Meyer's work progressed the cells got smaller with each design until finally he went to the injectors. The tiny volume of water in the injectors made them much more reliable as it reduced the non-linearity of the capacitance.

Quote from HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM

I have been in contact with him for some time. He actually gave up on the project years ago as he said it was far too much work with little results (Sounds familiar).

The immersed cells are just too touchy. Seems to me that the greater the volume of water in the cell the more non-linear it is. That's why as Meyer's work progressed the cells got smaller with each design until finally he went to the injectors. The tiny volume of water in the injectors made them much more reliable as it reduced the non-linearity of the capacitance.

So this person never had a working VIC? But have you learned anything new what his finding where building a VIC and WFC? Theories, used books, tech etc.

Yes, this is why Stan build the exciters in insulated Delrin cavities. To prevent voltage fluctuations. I did not test if the water volume has affect on the capacitance.

Br,
Webmug

Webmug may have a good point there! Meyer indeed was a radar specialist so it would not be strange if his wfc tech was based on his radar tech knowlegde. Take a look at this radar basics information, ... do you see anything familiar ;)

http://www.radartutorial.eu/08.transmitters/tx06.en.html

Charging coil, blocking diode and the double pulse principle are very well explained!

Quote from Sharky on July 30th, 2012, 04:09 AM

Webmug may have a good point there! Meyer indeed was a radar specialist so it would not be strange if his wfc tech was based on his radar tech knowlegde. Take a look at this radar basics information, ... do you see anything familiar ;)

http://www.radartutorial.eu/08.transmitters/tx06.en.html

Charging coil, blocking diode and the double pulse principle are very well explained!

If you read Stan patents very carefully most terminology is the same as in radar technical books. Even use alternators for charging the PFN!!

Br,
Webmug

Quote from HMS-776 on July 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM

I onlywish someone out there had a digital capacimeter capable of measuring at 1kHz increments so we could graph the different water types and see if there is a relationship between them and applied frequency. This would help a great deal in calculaing necessary choke size for a chosen frequency.

Programmable LCR Meter

http://www.vasavi.co.in/200khz_LCR.htm

http://www.tonghui.com.cn/en/goods/index/60.html

Br,
Webmug

Thanks Webmug, I knew such a device had to exist.

The only problem is wow, they are quite expensive. So I guess for now that's going to get ruled out. We already know the capacitor is non-linear. The numbers you provided as well as my own testing prove that.

For now the work continues. I am waiting for some electronics stuff to arrive which will give me much more precise tuning capabilities. Until then I don't have much else to do.

And yes Webmug as you pointed out there is a definate RADAR connection. Waveguides, PFN's, AC and DC charging etc! Good posts on those!

Quote from Webmug on July 30th, 2012, 03:09 AM

Quote from HMS-776 on July 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM

I have been in contact with him for some time. He actually gave up on the project years ago as he said it was far too much work with little results (Sounds familiar).

The immersed cells are just too touchy. Seems to me that the greater the volume of water in the cell the more non-linear it is. That's why as Meyer's work progressed the cells got smaller with each design until finally he went to the injectors. The tiny volume of water in the injectors made them much more reliable as it reduced the non-linearity of the capacitance.

So this person never had a working VIC? But have you learned anything new what his finding where building a VIC and WFC? Theories, used books, tech etc.

Yes, this is why Stan build the exciters in insulated Delrin cavities. To prevent voltage fluctuations. I did not test if the water volume has affect on the capacitance.

Br,
Webmug

I did a few more measurements on the 3 inch water fuel cell with different water volumes... and used demineralized water.

At frequency above 1kHz the capacitance is almost the same, only the resistance is altered. Minimal resistance at low water volume and maximum higher volume.

Don't know the effect if we circulate the water through the wfc.

I'm thinking why did Stan build a large volume water bath above the WFC cavity's?

If he used Natural water (Rain water) in the WFC's then it has about 156ohms in the test WFC but what is the adding resistance in the WFC's water bath?

Also it has a level indicator, not for water tank volume this was an external water tank. I think it was for (variable) resistance?

Any thoughts?

UPDATE:
Somehow my measurements are not correct on the variable water volume. My other measurements on rain water have the same resistances (low or high volume) in the WFC. So water volume have no effect on resistance or capacitance.

Maybe water flow is needed to prevent air-gas-bubbles, to do good measurements.

Br,
Webmug

I actually did a test last year on leakage current and water circulation.
I tested the 3" tube cell with still and circulating water to see if the leakage current would change.

Turns out with or without water flow the leakage current was the same.
(12V and tap water leakage was 15mA, 12V and distilled leakage was 5mA.)

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1833.msg21085.html#msg21085

It is important to remember that capacitors are not linear, nor are inductors. These are what we call reactive devices. This means that the current will flow differently than the voltage. The capacitive reactance and inductive reactance do not change depending on what frequency is fed to it. However the the amount of current taken or voltage passed does.

Good rule of thumb is ELI and ICE
These stand for:
ELI -> Voltage leads current, the 'L' doesn't stand for lead tho, rather inductive reactance. This means with a sine wave or RMS of some other wave, the rising side of the voltage will start, however it is not until after or near peak voltage that the current starts to flow.
ICE -> Current leads voltage, the 'C' stands for capacitive reactance. This has similar attributes to an inductor except that it takes on current first and as the charge in a capacitor starts to increase, the electron flow will slow down, voltage will rise. One Farad is a unit of measurement where 1F will hold one volt and one coulumb (spelling may be off). A Coulumb is the number of electrons in one amp second.

So when you have an inductor and a capacitor and these are 180 degrees out of phase from each other when talking about current they will charge each other at the same rate of discharge of the other devices only at a specific frequency.

Water as an electrolyte for capacitance should change based on the electrolytic components in the water. So this is why capacitance changes whether ur using de-ionized distilled water opposed to sea water. Thus you will need a different frequency for each.

The higher the voltage to the injectors (capacitor) the faster they will absorb or take on current, which is what separates water.

So the inductance inside of the VIC isn't as important as the matching capacitance of the injectors.

I'm sure most of you knew this information, however I decided to post this for the notes of anybody that needs it.

Thanks!

good work going on here, keep up the good work guys! i'm watching! lol ~Russ

Quote from VWType181 on August 1st, 2012, 06:39 PM

It is important to remember that capacitors are not linear, nor are inductors. These are what we call reactive devices. This means that the current will flow differently than the voltage. The capacitive reactance and inductive reactance do not change depending on what frequency is fed to it. However the the amount of current taken or voltage passed does.

Good rule of thumb is ELI and ICE
These stand for:
ELI -> Voltage leads current, the 'L' doesn't stand for lead tho, rather inductive reactance. This means with a sine wave or RMS of some other wave, the rising side of the voltage will start, however it is not until after or near peak voltage that the current starts to flow.
ICE -> Current leads voltage, the 'C' stands for capacitive reactance. This has similar attributes to an inductor except that it takes on current first and as the charge in a capacitor starts to increase, the electron flow will slow down, voltage will rise. One Farad is a unit of measurement where 1F will hold one volt and one coulumb (spelling may be off). A Coulumb is the number of electrons in one amp second.

So when you have an inductor and a capacitor and these are 180 degrees out of phase from each other when talking about current they will charge each other at the same rate of discharge of the other devices only at a specific frequency.

Water as an electrolyte for capacitance should change based on the electrolytic components in the water. So this is why capacitance changes whether ur using de-ionized distilled water opposed to sea water. Thus you will need a different frequency for each.

The higher the voltage to the injectors (capacitor) the faster they will absorb or take on current, which is what separates water.

So the inductance inside of the VIC isn't as important as the matching capacitance of the injectors.

I'm sure most of you knew this information, however I decided to post this for the notes of anybody that needs it.

Thanks!

Any ideas how to design the primary / feedback / secondary coils and tune them on resonance?

What if the wire length of primary is 1/4 or 1/2 wavelengths of secondary, can they be tuned?

Why because the secondary coil (charger) has halve the resonance frequency of the positive resonant charging choke (choke and WFC "LCR").

If you know the resonant charging choke frequency you can design the secondary coil, feedback and the primary coil (on halve resonant frequency). All coils are in phase with the primary pulse signal.
The blocking diode doubles the frequency of the secondary used by the resonant charging choke.

Any ideas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi24SpKYYoQ

Br,
Webmug