Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D

Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D

"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D

"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.

Thanks Faisca. :D

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current."
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization

Br,
Webmug

Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current."
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization

Br,
Webmug

I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.

Quote from Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM

Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current."
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization

Br,
Webmug

I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.

-without leakage
this is possible with gas resonant tube,gas processor(ionize ambient air).

-about need current that maintain.but if voltage lead current and then stop voltage before current appear.this is voltage only, right? Stan say "series LC circuit" why not parallel LC circuit. all of this because amps is importance.

Faraday law depend on Amps.Series LC, that make amps.but efficiency.

i added file from ionizationx.com about that.

thanks
geenee

Quote from Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM

Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current."
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization

Br,
Webmug

I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.

Quote

so we are going round in circles.

Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

There is no current flow through the WFC!
Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug

Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM

Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug

I understand your words and refer to my post in an other thread:
http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=733&pid=10161#pid10161
I´m with you when you say, the current can be inhibited because of the frequency and the coils. Coils for there own are resonant circuits because of the parasitic C component. With intent the C was high in Stanley Meyers VIC because of the multi layer charging chokes.

Ok so Z can be very high because of both chokes are oscillating on the same frequency. Also that means the current can be very low...
But where is the potential difference between the B+ and B-  to perform the EEP?

Is there a potetial difference because of the two resonant circuits? Because they can run out of phase (180° turned).
Because of the diode, the leak-current therefor would be unipolar to the WFC.
Regards

Edit: the green and the red lines should be sine waves of the two resonant circuits of choke 1 and 2 :D ...terrible mouse painting

Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM

Quote from Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM

Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current."
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization

Br,
Webmug

I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.

Quote

so we are going round in circles.

Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

There is no current flow through the WFC!
Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug

This is the true means of Stan's work.:D

Quote from Amsy on December 4th, 2012, 07:36 AM

Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM

Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug

I understand your words and refer to my post in an other thread:
http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=733&pid=10161#pid10161
I´m with you when you say, the current can be inhibited because of the frequency and the coils. Coils for there own are resonant circuits because of the parasitic C component. The C was high in Stanley Meyers VIC because of the multi layer coils.

Ok so Z can be very high because of both chokes are oscillatin gon the same frequency. Also that means the current can be very low...
But where is the potential difference between the B+ and B-  to perform the EEP?

Is there a potetial difference because of the two resonant circuits? Because they can run out of phase (180° turned).

Regards

Quote

Is there a potetial difference because of the two resonant circuits? Because they can run out of phase (180° turned).

http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=733&pid=10161#pid10161
There exist the VIC readings for example:
Choke 1: L=1218mH C=157pF---> fres would be 11.507Hz
Choke 2: L=1093mH C=180pF---> fres would be 11.347Hz

Yes there is 180° out of phase at the negative choke due the reverse connection to the WFC.

Measure the total inductance and capacitance of the series circuit (L1, WFC, L2) :idea: Not,  11.507Hz :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug

I really don't understand the ones insisting on photoshopping Stan's images to include an AC voltage
to the WFC as opposed to a pulsed DC voltage.
What possible purpose would that serve?

''Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.''

webmug is right about that,why worring so much about curent flow,it is restricting itself by the nature of the step up transformer,if you have 1:10 ratio on a transf.and you pulse its primary with 1amp,then 1amp :10=0.1amps on the sec. output,because the amps are reverse proportional with voltage,taking in acount that Stan's trans was 1:30 and he pulsed it's primary with 3amps,and the chokes are restricting the amps too,with their magnetic field..so ..do the math...The hardest part is to get amps to the cell not restricting them...Cheers!

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D

"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.

Hi,
I didn't find a direct reference in Stan's patentes but Ravi mentioned that in one of Stans patents he talked about using polyoxymethylene (Derlin) which has a high dielectric constant instead of coating the SS tubes. This material seems to be commonly used to build insulators, bobbins, connectors, parts for electronic devices such as televisions, which are often associated with high voltages therefore it might be what we are looking for.
My view is that looking at all the existing attempts to replicate what Stan did (Dave, Ravi, Scott etc.) they all reported improved production with coating which would confirm the thesis that a certain additional insulation prevents current leakage increasing the dielectric charge and voltage raise eventually.
FAISCA, could you check the above insulating material dielectric specs and comment whether it fits or not in your view?
I'm a new subscriber even if I've been monitoring the forums for a while but it looks to me none of us is at the stage of HHO production yet right (I've just finished my PCM and currently building the WFC)? If anyone would be there we could test Derlin or similar insulation effect on the HHO production.

Jul.

Quote from enrev on January 12th, 2013, 08:48 AM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug

sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".

Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D

"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.

Hi,
I didn't find a direct reference in Stan's patentes but Ravi mentioned that in one of Stans patents he talked about using polyoxymethylene (Derlin) which has a high dielectric constant instead of coating the SS tubes. This material seems to be commonly used to build insulators, bobbins, connectors, parts for electronic devices such as televisions, which are often associated with high voltages therefore it might be what we are looking for.
My view is that looking at all the existing attempts to replicate what Stan did (Dave, Ravi, Scott etc.) they all reported improved production with coating which would confirm the thesis that a certain additional insulation prevents current leakage increasing the dielectric charge and voltage raise eventually.
FAISCA, could you check the above insulating material dielectric specs and comment whether it fits or not in your view?
I'm a new subscriber even if I've been monitoring the forums for a while but it looks to me none of us is at the stage of HHO production yet right (I've just finished my PCM and currently building the WFC)? If anyone would be there we could test Derlin or similar insulation effect on the HHO production.

Jul.

welcome, i have herd similar things... but have not tried it my self...

ps. derlin is what stan's used on all his devices. only prob is i never have never seen a coated cell from stan's stuff...

now it would be interesting to see what the results are...

~Russ

I found this in my random interweb searches:
http://www.elektrisola.com/conductor-materials/stainless-steel/steel-304-14301.html

:cool:
Wonder what the costs are?

Nate

Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.

Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM

Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.

Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...

Quote from firepinto on January 19th, 2013, 08:45 AM

I found this in my random interweb searches:
http://www.elektrisola.com/conductor-materials/stainless-steel/steel-304-14301.html

:cool:
Wonder what the costs are?

Nate

nice find nate. wonder what are the enamelles they offer...

Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM

Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM

Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.

Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...

With or without the quencing diode?

Quote from enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM

Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM

Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM

Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.

Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...

With or without the quencing diode?

I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.

[/quote]I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.[/quote]Tony had the 5 coil vic with a real cap,the chokes were separated from eachother conected out of phase,Jon had bifiliar chokes with a resistor as water...

Quote from enrev on January 23rd, 2013, 07:13 AM

Quote from enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM

Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM

Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM

Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.

Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...

With or without the quencing diode?

I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.

In the 5 coil VIC transformer the two chokes are on regular bobins and are not bililar wound. They seem to have been wired opposing fields. The only circuit we have pictures of that have bifilar wound chokes is the 8XA demonstation unit. Many of Stans information and diagrams show seperate coils (some variable). Therefore I do not beleave that they need to be bifilar wound. It may have been earily in Stans reserch that it was the easiest way to match the two coils.

As for using a regular capacitor in place of the cell, I think there is more to the cell than just a capacitance. If it could be replaced that easy many people would have been able to get the system to work. Also, what would limit the charge (voltage) across the real capacitor? It would have no place to discharge because of the diode and would build up untill? So, at a minimum a capacitor with a resistor in parallel would be a good start. When we are able to get a system to work this should be one of the first thing to figure out is the electrical model of the cell.

Quote from DanB on January 23rd, 2013, 02:17 PM

Quote from enrev on January 23rd, 2013, 07:13 AM

Quote from enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM

Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM

Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM

Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.

Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...

With or without the quencing diode?

I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.

In the 5 coil VIC transformer the two chokes are on regular bobins and are not bililar wound. They seem to have been wired opposing fields. The only circuit we have pictures of that have bifilar wound chokes is the 8XA demonstation unit. Many of Stans information and diagrams show seperate coils (some variable). Therefore I do not beleave that they need to be bifilar wound. It may have been earily in Stans reserch that it was the easiest way to match the two coils.

As for using a regular capacitor in place of the cell, I think there is more to the cell than just a capacitance. If it could be replaced that easy many people would have been able to get the system to work. Also, what would limit the charge (voltage) across the real capacitor? It would have no place to discharge because of the diode and would build up untill? So, at a minimum a capacitor with a resistor in parallel would be a good start. When we are able to get a system to work this should be one of the first thing to figure out is the electrical model of the cell.

My view is that the diode when associated with regular coils and a regular capacitor will limit the voltage to twice Vcc because the diode will seize the circuit. You can easily find this out with a circuit simulator or with a test, it's a know circuit. To get oscillations, and therefore resonance you need either to discarge the capacitor somehow, like for example the sparc gap does in a tesla coil with resonance ballasting. That's why my question about the difference between a regular capatitor, which clearly doesn't discharge, or the water cell that might somehow discarge its energy into the strange dielectric represented by the water.
Regarding Stan and bifilars it's more a matter of what we mean by bifilar; what is clear since early Stan's patents is that he always wounded the 2 inductances in opposite directions ( so if you prefer "a kind of bifilar") even if someone said that this is a mistake on the picture on his patent...there are no such mistakes in the patents. I believe he did that otherwise there is no way to make it works with a diode. All the tests that so far achieved a certain success had either no diode or diode and bifilar. The combination of diode and regular bobins simply cannot work as there is no way to feed energy into the LC circuit after the initial charge. This could explain current troubles to replicate Stan's work within the forum.
Of course i might be completely wrong but in that case i'd appreciate some help to understand the role of the diode and how to wound the 2 bobins.

Jul.

Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.