open-source-energy.org

Open - Source - Research => HHO / Browns Gas / Hydroxy / Stan Meyer => Open-Source Research => Stan Meyer WFC => Topic started by: phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM

Title: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
note to reader:

you can find the most up to date measurements of stan's VIC and our data/research here on this post on this thread.: http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=5507#pid5507

thanks!! ~Russ

off to the original post:

Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 9th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Quote from phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?
If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it.  The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure.  It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots.  So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.  :cool:

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.:huh:

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 07:30 AM
[attachment=454][attachment=455]
Quote from firepinto on November 9th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Quote from phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?
If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it.  The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure.  It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots.  So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.  :cool:

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.:huh:

Nate
Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 10th, 2011, 07:32 AM
Quote from firepinto on November 9th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Quote from phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?
If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it.  The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure.  It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots.  So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.  :cool:

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.:huh:

Nate
phill, it really depends on your cell and sizes and a bunch of stuff. i would read this thread: http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119) but even then we don't have it down to a fine line so a lot of testing will need to be done!

hope it helps!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 10th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Quote
Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)
It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too.  I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet.  I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011.  Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 08:20 AM
Quote from firepinto on November 10th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Quote
Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)
It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too.  I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet.  I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011.  Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?  

Nate
I've attached the size for the core (original). In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be. So for now, you can drop testing an iron core. Here is a picture taken from the replicated core.

Regarding the gap in the bobbins, this added measurement will answer that question
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 10th, 2011, 09:22 AM
Quote from Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 08:20 AM
Quote from firepinto on November 10th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Quote
Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)
It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too.  I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet.  I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011.  Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?  

Nate
I've attached the size for the core (original). In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be. So for now, you can drop testing an iron core. Here is a picture taken from the replicated core.

Regarding the gap in the bobbins, this added measurement will answer that question
Oneminde,

could you please post your data test results here:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119)

im interesting in your test data as we all are trying to collaborate VIC data there on that thread.

also, did you cut the cores out of a solid sheet? and if so where did yo u get the ferrite sheet?

please reply via the thread VIC.(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119)

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 10th, 2011, 10:58 AM
Quote from Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 08:20 AM
In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be.
Has a core made out of magnetite/black sand/Fe3O4 been tried and tested yet? I may reckon it has a much higher permeability than the ferrite and maybe metglas.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 12:58 PM
Quote from haxar on November 10th, 2011, 10:58 AM
Quote from Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 08:20 AM
In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be.
Has a core made out of magnetite/black sand/Fe3O4 been tried and tested yet? I may reckon it has a much higher permeability than the ferrite and maybe metglas.
That is funny, how on earth did you "know" that this is soon happening?? ... LOL - so the answer is, no not yet... but it will happen.
It was just a few day's ago that I remember the Muller Cores and revisited the coils he made from a Magnetite (350 mesh) and epoxy blend (70/30 blend) - this is exactly what will be tested.

Regards.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on November 10th, 2011, 02:47 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 9th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Quote from phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?
If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it.  The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure.  It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots.  So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.  :cool:

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.:huh:

Nate
I might have to take you up on that, thanks.

Do i have to get a certain size magnetic core for it to fit, or do i get a core and give you the sizes?

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 10th, 2011, 03:06 PM
Quote from phil on November 10th, 2011, 02:47 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 9th, 2011, 01:21 PM
Quote from phil on November 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?
If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it.  The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure.  It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots.  So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.  :cool:

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.:huh:

Nate
I might have to take you up on that, thanks.

Do i have to get a certain size magnetic core for it to fit, or do i get a core and give you the sizes?
Right now the design is a complete replica of the design that Dynodon detailed on the waterfuelcell.org forums.  Russ said that it is very close to the original Stan bobbins, correct?  The core is designed as a 3/4 inch or 19 millimeter square core.  For myself, my Sketchup skills are still very new.   It would be easier for me to start a new design from the ground up if any different dimensions are needed.  I probably won't have time to design a new set till around the 1st of the year.  I will be printing a few bobbins of the original design this weekend.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 05:24 PM
I'm finding some problems with dimensions for the 'card style' VIC bobbins.  Between the 3 pictures below, I can't find any measurement that they can seem to agree on.:huh:  
[attachment=467][attachment=468][attachment=469]

I've went as far as printing the disassembled VIC coil (on paper:P), cutting out the ruler and using it.:)  Not accurate, but its enough to realize something isn't matching.  Any ideas on what measurements are correct?

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 14th, 2011, 05:42 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 05:24 PM
I'm finding some problems with dimensions for the 'card style' VIC bobbins.  Between the 3 pictures below, I can't find any measurement that they can seem to agree on.:huh:  


I've went as far as printing the disassembled VIC coil (on paper:P), cutting out the ruler and using it.:)  Not accurate, but its enough to realize something isn't matching.  Any ideas on what measurements are correct?

Nate
Nate the hand drawing on the photo copied pad of paper is corect. It's in the files you download... ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 14th, 2011, 05:42 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 05:24 PM
I'm finding some problems with dimensions for the 'card style' VIC bobbins.  Between the 3 pictures below, I can't find any measurement that they can seem to agree on.:huh:  


I've went as far as printing the disassembled VIC coil (on paper:P), cutting out the ruler and using it.:)  Not accurate, but its enough to realize something isn't matching.  Any ideas on what measurements are correct?

Nate
Nate the hand drawing on the photo copied pad of paper is corect. It's in the files you download... ~Russ
Thanks Russ, lol I completely missed that one!  Looks pretty close to what I was measuring with my fancy ruler. :P  I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls.  My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8",  the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 14th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 06:26 PM
I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls.  My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8",  the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?
I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.



Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 09:23 AM
Quote from haxar on November 14th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 06:26 PM
I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls.  My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8",  the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?
I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.




Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.
Excellent, I was planning on a design in halves too.  I may try to print this tonight.  I just need to figure out how to convert it to millimeters.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 15th, 2011, 05:20 PM
Quote
Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.
I have done extensive research and i have found out that stan may have been using 4 layer coating on the wire witch brings the measurements up to where there suppose to be...

this makes sense with the use that there may be high voltage in the wire. extra insulation...

thoughts?
 
~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 15th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 15th, 2011, 05:20 PM
I have done extensive research and i have found out that stan may have been using 4 layer coating on the wire witch brings the measurements up to where there suppose to be...

this makes sense with the use that there may be high voltage in the wire. extra insulation...

thoughts?
 
~Russ
Yes, Stan may have used 30 AWG magnet wire with heavy double or quadruple insulation to make it approximately 29 AWG. The type of insulation in question could be found in the technical brief at the beginning of page 7-5 of memo 426:
Quote
both magnet wire sizes (622/623) uses solderable Nysol (Polyurethane Nylon Jacket) insulation enamel coating as a electrical shield-material ...
One supplier who carries magnet wire with Polyurethane-Nylon insulation could be found here:
http://www.planetengineers.com/default.asp?cat=Wire%2C+Magnet
30 AWG Heavy Poly Nylon (two coats):
http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=1458
30 AWG Quadruple Poly Nylon (four coats):
http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=2168

30 AWG with a heavy build would have a maximum diameter of 0.0121 inches according to this document:
http://www.nema.org/stds/complimentary-docs/upload/MW%201000-2008_errata%20final.pdf
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on November 15th, 2011, 05:52 PM
In the wire size chart it gives the bare diameter, I think that's the diameter of the conductor only
If someone had measured the thickness of the wire that measurement will include the insulation
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Quote from haxar on November 14th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 14th, 2011, 06:26 PM
I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls.  My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8",  the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?
I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.
Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging.  There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great.  Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow. :cool:

Nate
[attachment=478]
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 15th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging.  There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great.  Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow. :cool:

Nate
Thanks Nate. I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.

Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup:
Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters
:huh:




Here are the guesstimated dimensions for the end piece:

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3997/ict0033jpgdimensions800.png)

You can edit these values in Inkscape or a proprietary variant like Adobe as an SVG image file zipped in the attachments.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Quote from haxar on November 15th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging.  There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great.  Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow. :cool:

Nate
Thanks Nate. I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.

Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup:
Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters
:huh:




Here are the guesstimated dimensions for the end piece:

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3997/ict0033jpgdimensions800.png)

You can edit these values in Inkscape or a proprietary variant like Adobe as an SVG image file zipped in the attachments.
Yep that's all I had to do in Sketchup to change to mm.  Easier than I expected. lol  I think the end piece dimensions should work well.  They really just hold things together, and might need tweaking to get printed parts to fit together anyway.  You could probably add the 4 screw holes into the end pieces too.  They usually turn out alright on the printers, just need a little reaming with a drill bit.  
The best part about these bobbins is the short print time.  Might be able to print a complete set in 2 hours instead of the 9 hours(90% infill)  for the Multi-coil spool version.  


Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 15th, 2011, 09:57 PM
Quote from haxar on November 15th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging.  There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great.  Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow. :cool:

Nate
Thanks Nate. I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.

Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup:
Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters
:huh:



Here are the guesstimated dimensions for the end piece:

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3997/ict0033jpgdimensions800.png)

You can edit these values in Inkscape or a proprietary variant like Adobe as an SVG image file zipped in the attachments.
nice work, i had to assimilable it! :)

looks good!

but i cant post the file where im at! :(
~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 16th, 2011, 08:46 AM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 15th, 2011, 09:57 PM
Quote from haxar on November 15th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging.  There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great.  Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow. :cool:

Nate
Thanks Nate. I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.

Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup:
Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters
:huh:




Here are the guesstimated dimensions for the end piece:

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3997/ict0033jpgdimensions800.png)

You can edit these values in Inkscape or a proprietary variant like Adobe as an SVG image file zipped in the attachments.
nice work, i had to assimilable it! :)

looks good!

but i cant post the file where im at! :(
~Russ
lol Now we need a file to burn out some steel U bars for the cores.:P  I've also wondered if the aluminum cases for the VIC Coil play an important role.  EMI shielding perhaps?

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on November 16th, 2011, 01:06 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 16th, 2011, 08:46 AM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 15th, 2011, 09:57 PM
Quote from haxar on November 15th, 2011, 08:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 15th, 2011, 06:50 PM
Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging.  There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great.  Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow. :cool:

Nate
Thanks Nate. I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.

Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup:
Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters
:huh:




Here are the guesstimated dimensions for the end piece:

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3997/ict0033jpgdimensions800.png)

You can edit these values in Inkscape or a proprietary variant like Adobe as an SVG image file zipped in the attachments.
nice work, i had to assimilable it! :)

looks good!

but i cant post the file where im at! :(
~Russ
lol Now we need a file to burn out some steel U bars for the cores.:P  I've also wondered if the aluminum cases for the VIC Coil play an important role.  EMI shielding perhaps?

Nate
I assume it´s for cooling purposes and to cope with the eddy currents.

bussi04

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 16th, 2011, 02:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpo-NOUnxDQ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 16th, 2011, 06:17 PM
As for the electronics in Stan's original voltage intensifier circuit, I've done a trace of its card here:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3319/viccardtrace800px.png)(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4774/viccardtrace.png)

(click to enlarge or download the editable SVG image file zipped in the attachments)

I've drawn up the complete "functioning" schematic of the circuit as well:

(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1361/vicschem800px.png)(http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495)

(click for a printable PDF of the schematic)

The zipped schematic file in the attachments may only be compatible with gschem of the gEDA electronic toolkit, so compatibility varies.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 16th, 2011, 07:45 PM
Quote from h2opower on November 16th, 2011, 07:29 PM
I have a question, in looking at the circuit R47 220 can't be correct can it? For if a resistor is place across an inductor doesn't that bypass the inductor? As that looks like a resistor hooked up from positive straight to ground. Also R21 and R36 seem to be hooked up oddly. I am not all the great with circuits but I do know electronics okay.

h2opower
Yes, R47 is wired across the primary coil to restrict current heating up the coil. The resistor should reference this post by Dynodon on ionizationx:
Quote
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don

The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
Source: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg19079.html#msg19079
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 16th, 2011, 10:19 PM
[attachment=496][attachment=497][attachment=498]
Just finished printing a complete set. :)   I tried printing with 100% infill, didn't help any.  I used support rafting on the bobbins, but it didnt turn out very good.  The support didn't go perpendicular to the layer it needs to support.:dodgy:  The end caps also have a narrow spot that the printer didn't do well on.  It only printed 1 layer of the shell.  I have a feeling a smaller nozzle is needed so that the model can be sliced thinner. All that said these are still very usable.  Supports added lengthwise to the sketch would be better than the skeinforge supports.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 16th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Thanks Nate. I just added the holes, extended the length of the end piece to 3.75" and the feet to 0.33". And yes, minor adjustments to the dimensions may need to be done for assembly.

The latest revision of the sketch is in the attachments including an image how it would look like assembled.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 16th, 2011, 10:50 PM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Thanks Nate. I just added the holes, extended the length of the end piece to 3.75" and the feet to 0.33". And yes, minor adjustments to the dimensions may need to be done for assembly.

The latest revision of the sketch is in the attachments including an image how it would look like assembled.
So far the dimensions for the areas that need to fit together are working perfect.  I have a few combinations I want to try tomorrow to try and improve results.  There was some warping from cooling differences.  
The new sketch looks awesome.:cool:  These RepRaps should be able to spit these out like hotcakes. :D  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 16th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 06:17 PM
As for the electronics in Stan's original voltage intensifier circuit, I've done a trace of its card here:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3319/viccardtrace800px.png)(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4774/viccardtrace.png)

(click to enlarge or download the editable SVG image file zipped in the attachments)

I've drawn up the complete "functioning" schematic of the circuit as well:

(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1361/vicschem800px.png)(http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495)

(click for a printable PDF of the schematic)

The zipped schematic file in the attachments may only be compatible with gschem of the gEDA electronic toolkit, so compatibility varies.
wow Haxar, nice work

A Note to all!

the VIC card is only once piece of the the Circuit!! the GMS unit runs the VIC CARDS!!!

Haxar! some fine work, now... can you do all the cards in the GMS unit??? this would be a big start! open source also! amazing!

let me know if your up for the challenge? we will start a new thread called " Stanly Meyers GMS Unit Reverse engineered" if you wan tot post this VIC card there!!!


Nate!!! ill Take 2 og the VIC bobbins!  lol looking nice! we can mill out the slot on the bottom! no worries!

to all! we are moving fast! lets get this out to the public as fast as possible!

God Bless!!! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 17th, 2011, 01:06 AM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 16th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Haxar! some fine work, now... can you do all the cards in the GMS unit??? this would be a big start! open source also! amazing!

let me know if your up for the challenge? we will start a new thread called " Stanly Meyers GMS Unit Reverse engineered" if you wan tot post this VIC card there!!!
I don't think we need to do all of the cards as most of their schematics can be found in the international patent WO92/07861. The only cards of the GMS which should as least make the VIC circuit functional are the Variable Pulse Frequency (FREQ GEN.) and the Gated Pulse Frequency (WATER CELL) cards. The other cards on the GMS as controlling and regulating cards shouldn't be important to VIC functionality.

Here's a modified overview of the hydrogen fracturing technology chart by Alex Petty keeping the essential parts of the circuit (all of which is in the complete functional VIC schematic I posted):

[attachment=502]

http://www.alexpetty.com/2011/06/23/hydrogen-fracturing-technology-overview-chart/
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 17th, 2011, 01:46 AM
Quote from haxar on November 17th, 2011, 01:06 AM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 16th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Haxar! some fine work, now... can you do all the cards in the GMS unit??? this would be a big start! open source also! amazing!

let me know if your up for the challenge? we will start a new thread called " Stanly Meyers GMS Unit Reverse engineered" if you wan tot post this VIC card there!!!
I don't think we need to do all of the cards as most of their schematics can be found in the international patent WO92/07861. The only cards of the GMS which should as least make the VIC circuit functional are the Variable Pulse Frequency (FREQ GEN.) and the Gated Pulse Frequency (WATER CELL) cards. The other cards on the GMS as controlling and regulating cards shouldn't be important to VIC functionality.

Here's a modified overview of the hydrogen fracturing technology chart by Alex Petty keeping the essential parts of the circuit (all of which is in the complete functional VIC schematic I posted):



http://www.alexpetty.com/2011/06/23/hydrogen-fracturing-technology-overview-chart/
that works, i agree not all of them need to be maid,

also the patent drawings are not accurate as you can see from the GMS cards there was a lot of "field" modifications and every circuit should be Double checked.

non the less, lets make it and do it open! ??

Thanks!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 12:56 PM
[attachment=503][attachment=504][attachment=505][attachment=506][attachment=507][attachment=508]

Here is my latest and greatest print attempts.  I added supports to the bobbin cores, which turned out nice.:)  I also modified Haxar's latest end cap to beef up the zip-tie areas.  Now it fills in all the middles, except the narrowest spot.  I made the width 3mm, which seems to be the narrowest you can go with out loosing infill.  1 mm for each shell and 1 mm for the infill.  
I also printed with a 2 layer raft to help reduce warping.  I want to try to make the parts print out on the bed 90 degrees from what they do now.  The rafting just doesn't work as well when it is parrallel to the length of the object.  I think I can fix that by making an stl with a complete set parts.  Skeinforge seems to put the length along the Y axis.  You can see in the endcap picture where i have half of the rafting removed, some of the corners didn't stick because the raft didn't line up.  
Haxar the holes turned out nice.:cool:  Don't really need to ream much out if you didn't want too.

RepRaps are sweet! :cool:

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 02:57 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 12:56 PM
Here is my latest and greatest print attempts.  I added supports to the bobbin cores, which turned out nice.:)  I also modified Haxar's latest end cap to beef up the zip-tie areas.  Now it fills in all the middles, except the narrowest spot.  I made the width 3mm, which seems to be the narrowest you can go with out loosing infill.  1 mm for each shell and 1 mm for the infill.  
I also printed with a 2 layer raft to help reduce warping.  I want to try to make the parts print out on the bed 90 degrees from what they do now.  The rafting just doesn't work as well when it is parrallel to the length of the object.  I think I can fix that by making an stl with a complete set parts.  Skeinforge seems to put the length along the Y axis.  You can see in the endcap picture where i have half of the rafting removed, some of the corners didn't stick because the raft didn't line up.  
Haxar the holes turned out nice.:cool:  Don't really need to ream much out if you didn't want too.

RepRaps are sweet! :cool:

Nate
I have a couple more tweaks.  Ill have them out today. Please stand by.:P

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 17th, 2011, 03:04 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 12:56 PM
Here is my latest and greatest print attempts.  I added supports to the bobbin cores, which turned out nice.:)  I also modified Haxar's latest end cap to beef up the zip-tie areas.  Now it fills in all the middles, except the narrowest spot.  I made the width 3mm, which seems to be the narrowest you can go with out loosing infill.  1 mm for each shell and 1 mm for the infill.  
I also printed with a 2 layer raft to help reduce warping.  I want to try to make the parts print out on the bed 90 degrees from what they do now.  The rafting just doesn't work as well when it is parrallel to the length of the object.  I think I can fix that by making an stl with a complete set parts.  Skeinforge seems to put the length along the Y axis.  You can see in the endcap picture where i have half of the rafting removed, some of the corners didn't stick because the raft didn't line up.  
Haxar the holes turned out nice.:cool:  Don't really need to ream much out if you didn't want too.

RepRaps are sweet! :cool:

Nate
Nice!!!!! Good work Nate! And haxar! Blessings! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 03:41 PM
[attachment=510][attachment=511]


I found out that I needed to rotate the objects in Google Sketchup.  I tried a print with it rotated and it worked much better with the raft.  There was a trade off though, the "wings" on the bobbin didn't start off great.  Printing with out the raft would be the ideal way to do it.  I added some little indentations to the bobbin walls.  They are only 0.5 mm deep, and they strengthen the walls, by "glueing" each side together.  My test print only had 2 indentations, and I found adding a 3rd would be better.  They shouldn't affect how the coils are wound.  
I also extended the supports outside of the bobbin.  I was having spots where the nozzle wasn't feeding material at the starts of the lines.  That will give it time to get flowing again.  
Sketchup and STL files are attatched. :cool:

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Hello everyone!
I´m really enjoying with all the great job you are doing!
I have got a microwave tranformer and i got this ferrrite core from it! it´s composed of a big amount of pieces welded each other,so all you have to do is take the number os pieces you need and  cut the middle part that we don´t want to.
I think that will work perfect as a VIC core!![attachment=512][attachment=513][attachment=514][attachment=515]
Quote from firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 03:41 PM
I found out that I needed to rotate the objects in Google Sketchup.  I tried a print with it rotated and it worked much better with the raft.  There was a trade off though, the "wings" on the bobbin didn't start off great.  Printing with out the raft would be the ideal way to do it.  I added some little indentations to the bobbin walls.  They are only 0.5 mm deep, and they strengthen the walls, by "glueing" each side together.  My test print only had 2 indentations, and I found adding a 3rd would be better.  They shouldn't affect how the coils are wound.  
I also extended the supports outside of the bobbin.  I was having spots where the nozzle wasn't feeding material at the starts of the lines.  That will give it time to get flowing again.  
Sketchup and STL files are attatched. :cool:

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 18th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Quote from Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Hello everyone!
I´m really enjoying with all the great job you are doing!
I have got a microwave transformer and i got this ferrite core from it! it´s composed of a big amount of pieces welded each other,so all you have to do is take the number os pieces you need and  cut the middle part that we don´t want to.
I think that will work perfect as a VIC core!!
fantastic idea, sadly that's not ferrite and some other folks have tested iron. The permeability needs to be higher.

others and me have looked for a core to fit the transformer and could not find any. we will need to cut it out of a sheet. i have not yet done the research for the ferrite sheet.

hope we can find some.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 08:30 AM
Hy Russ!
So,what the hell is the staf i have?is it not going to work properly?
what do you mean with permeability?
it Has to be definately ferrite core?
Thanks
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 18th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Quote from Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Hello everyone!
I´m really enjoying with all the great job you are doing!
I have got a microwave transformer and i got this ferrite core from it! it´s composed of a big amount of pieces welded each other,so all you have to do is take the number os pieces you need and  cut the middle part that we don´t want to.
I think that will work perfect as a VIC core!!
fantastic idea, sadly that's not ferrite and some other folks have tested iron. The permeability needs to be higher.

others and me have looked for a core to fit the transformer and could not find any. we will need to cut it out of a sheet. i have not yet done the research for the ferrite sheet.

hope we can find some.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 18th, 2011, 08:00 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 17th, 2011, 03:41 PM
I found out that I needed to rotate the objects in Google Sketchup.  I tried a print with it rotated and it worked much better with the raft.  There was a trade off though, the "wings" on the bobbin didn't start off great.  Printing with out the raft would be the ideal way to do it.  I added some little indentations to the bobbin walls.  They are only 0.5 mm deep, and they strengthen the walls, by "glueing" each side together.  My test print only had 2 indentations, and I found adding a 3rd would be better.  They shouldn't affect how the coils are wound.  
I also extended the supports outside of the bobbin.  I was having spots where the nozzle wasn't feeding material at the starts of the lines.  That will give it time to get flowing again.  
Sketchup and STL files are attatched. :cool:

Nate
Well, so far the design seems like its going to work out great.  It never fails, that is when something else goes wrong.  I had an STL made that printed a complete set of parts.  I let it print over night only to find out the parts were brittle and falling apart in the morning.  I think cold ambient temps, and too many parts at one time were the problem.  I turned the shed heat up to 80 F and things started to print better.  Thats when the Z opto mount on the printer broke.:@:rolleyes: I'll have to fix that up before I can make any more Stan Gear.:P  I wish I had Jeff's cast alum heated bed plate finished now. lol
 I made a short video of the bad parts, I'll try to get it up in a day or so.  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on November 19th, 2011, 02:05 AM
I talked with a source that has had many of these ferrite cores break on him... they are very brittle!@ I am wondering if there is another substance with similar permeability?

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#5
I am not sure how aluminum fits in to this chart. aluminum i think is paramagnetic
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 19th, 2011, 02:18 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on November 19th, 2011, 02:05 AM
I talked with a source that has had many of these ferrite cores break on him... they are very brittle!@ I am wondering if there is another substance with similar permeability?

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#5
I am not sure how aluminum fits in to this chart. aluminum i think is paramagnetic
I was thinking about something like Zerofossilfuel was going to do with his muller coils.  I think he was going to mix super fine magnetite and epoxy.  Instead of that, I was thinking what if you melted PLA filament, blended in magnetite powder, and then extruded it back into filament?  Then you could just print out what ever shape of core you wanted.  I have no idea if it is possible to get enough powder in the plastic, and still be able to extrude it all through a 0.5mm hole.  Or if you can get enough powder in the plastic to even work as a magnetic core.  It would be awesome if it did.:)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 19th, 2011, 04:20 AM
Quote from Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 08:30 AM
Hy Russ!
So,what the hell is the staf i have?is it not going to work properly?
what do you mean with permeability?
it Has to be definately ferrite core?
Thanks
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 18th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Quote from Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Hello everyone!
I´m really enjoying with all the great job you are doing!
I have got a microwave transformer and i got this ferrite core from it! it´s composed of a big amount of pieces welded each other,so all you have to do is take the number os pieces you need and  cut the middle part that we don´t want to.
I think that will work perfect as a VIC core!!
fantastic idea, sadly that's not ferrite and some other folks have tested iron. The permeability needs to be higher.

others and me have looked for a core to fit the transformer and could not find any. we will need to cut it out of a sheet. i have not yet done the research for the ferrite sheet.

hope we can find some.

~Russ
from other sources, i have herd that iron will not work. but its worth a try as you are looking good! all we can do is test it...

check out this: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29(http://wapedia.mobi/en/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29)

thanks to Kevin for the link.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on November 19th, 2011, 09:36 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 19th, 2011, 04:20 AM
Quote from Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 08:30 AM
Hy Russ!
So,what the hell is the staf i have?is it not going to work properly?
what do you mean with permeability?
it Has to be definately ferrite core?
Thanks
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 18th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Quote from Muxar on November 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Hello everyone!
I´m really enjoying with all the great job you are doing!
I have got a microwave transformer and i got this ferrite core from it! it´s composed of a big amount of pieces welded each other,so all you have to do is take the number os pieces you need and  cut the middle part that we don´t want to.
I think that will work perfect as a VIC core!!
fantastic idea, sadly that's not ferrite and some other folks have tested iron. The permeability needs to be higher.

others and me have looked for a core to fit the transformer and could not find any. we will need to cut it out of a sheet. i have not yet done the research for the ferrite sheet.

hope we can find some.

~Russ
from other sources, i have herd that iron will not work. but its worth a try as you are looking good! all we can do is test it...

check out this: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29(http://wapedia.mobi/en/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29)

thanks to Kevin for the link.

~Russ
i dont quite understand that chart yet. aluminum is on the list but it does nothing to inductance
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on November 19th, 2011, 04:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqoHOAEKc-k&list=UUfZp4JFYt17h0XuPn9uUGOg&feature=plcp

Hey guys, I saw this video a few weeks back. They sell it in my gf's work in a art supply store. Sorry for the french. Check out at 1min 50sec. Could make a mold for bobbins or a ""resin ferrite core""?? Check out my post in the Open Source Health section about orgonite to see them pouring resin in molds.. they spray the molds with grease so it doesn't stick
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on November 20th, 2011, 12:14 AM
http://ceiec-sz.en.alibaba.com/product/214239112-200401780/CEIEC_MnZn_Soft_Ferrite_Powder.html(http://ceiec-sz.en.alibaba.com/product/214239112-200401780/CEIEC_MnZn_Soft_Ferrite_Powder.html)

Soft Ferrite Powder
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on November 20th, 2011, 08:47 PM
Correction.. Maybe,

Hard Ferrite Powder

http://ceiec-sz.en.alibaba.com/product/214238669-200401780/CEIEC_Hard_Ferrite_Powder.html(http://ceiec-sz.en.alibaba.com/product/214238669-200401780/CEIEC_Hard_Ferrite_Powder.html)

I think this powder normally gets pressed in a form. If we use epoxy we loose permiability.


Someone had mentioned just using 4 strips of ferrite to make the rectangle shape.. Thought that sounded easy., Separate pieces = less permeability??
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 21st, 2011, 05:10 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on November 20th, 2011, 08:47 PM
Correction.. Maybe,

Hard Ferrite Powder

http://ceiec-sz.en.alibaba.com/product/214238669-200401780/CEIEC_Hard_Ferrite_Powder.html(http://ceiec-sz.en.alibaba.com/product/214238669-200401780/CEIEC_Hard_Ferrite_Powder.html)

I think this powder normally gets pressed in a form. If we use epoxy we loose permiability.


Someone had mentioned just using 4 strips of ferrite to make the rectangle shape.. Thought that sounded easy., Separate pieces = less permeability??
I think the gaps between the pieces are where the losses come from.  Leedskalnin said his PMH needed to have a perfect fit on the iron bars to work properly.  If you look at the vic pictures you can see the gap between the C cores through the peep hole.  I'm wondering if two gaps that fit tight will be equal to one gap with air space.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 21st, 2011, 07:13 PM
[attachment=517][attachment=518]

Here are my latest and greatest prints of the Haxar VIC bobbins.:cool:  I printed with out a raft this time.  I adjusted my Z home so that the first layer didn't flatten out, but still stuck to the bed.  The parts fit together tight, and need a little sanding to fit perfect.  Part of the tightness is from the slight warping when the part cools during printing.  These turned out really strong, I can't wait to see some wire turned on them.:D
I found a bunch of these ferrite bars from an out of business russian shop.. they are a little thick and a bit too short.  Could be made to work?:huh:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FERRITE-BARS-62x12x4mm-400HH-material-67-u-40-120pcs-/380387504420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5890dcb124

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on November 21st, 2011, 07:54 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 21st, 2011, 07:13 PM
Here are my latest and greatest prints of the Haxar VIC bobbins.:cool:  I printed with out a raft this time.  I adjusted my Z home so that the first layer didn't flatten out, but still stuck to the bed.  The parts fit together tight, and need a little sanding to fit perfect.  Part of the tightness is from the slight warping when the part cools during printing.  These turned out really strong, I can't wait to see some wire turned on them.:D
I found a bunch of these ferrite bars from an out of business russian shop.. they are a little thick and a bit too short.  Could be made to work?:huh:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FERRITE-BARS-62x12x4mm-400HH-material-67-u-40-120pcs-/380387504420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5890dcb124

Nate
Pintobobbins look amazing. Nice One ;)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 21st, 2011, 11:14 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 21st, 2011, 07:13 PM
Here are my latest and greatest prints of the Haxar VIC bobbins.:cool:  I printed with out a raft this time.  I adjusted my Z home so that the first layer didn't flatten out, but still stuck to the bed.  The parts fit together tight, and need a little sanding to fit perfect.  Part of the tightness is from the slight warping when the part cools during printing.  These turned out really strong, I can't wait to see some wire turned on them.:D
I found a bunch of these ferrite bars from an out of business russian shop.. they are a little thick and a bit too short.  Could be made to work?:huh:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FERRITE-BARS-62x12x4mm-400HH-material-67-u-40-120pcs-/380387504420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5890dcb124

Nate
holly crap that is sweet!

man i nee doe of those!!!!!! cant wait to see the bobbins Nate! on there way ?

wow i just love the way they look!!!!! your hard work on that printer is paying off!  

blessings!!

PS, the ferrite is to small... :(

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 22nd, 2011, 08:19 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 21st, 2011, 11:14 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 21st, 2011, 07:13 PM
Here are my latest and greatest prints of the Haxar VIC bobbins.:cool:  I printed with out a raft this time.  I adjusted my Z home so that the first layer didn't flatten out, but still stuck to the bed.  The parts fit together tight, and need a little sanding to fit perfect.  Part of the tightness is from the slight warping when the part cools during printing.  These turned out really strong, I can't wait to see some wire turned on them.:D
I found a bunch of these ferrite bars from an out of business russian shop.. they are a little thick and a bit too short.  Could be made to work?:huh:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FERRITE-BARS-62x12x4mm-400HH-material-67-u-40-120pcs-/380387504420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5890dcb124

Nate
holly crap that is sweet!

man i nee doe of those!!!!!! cant wait to see the bobbins Nate! on there way ?

wow i just love the way they look!!!!! your hard work on that printer is paying off!  

blessings!!

PS, the ferrite is to small... :(

~Russ
Thanks Kevin and Russ:)  I'll have the package out today!  I want to put a couple extra goodies in it first.:P  
My next goal is to build my new printer.  Specifically for building large parts that need water erasable supports.:cool:  I'm finding I'll have to design my own printer parts or modify existing designs to make it work.  It's gonna be a bit different.:P

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 22nd, 2011, 05:54 PM
Haxar, Nate, Russ and Kevin, I just found these posts from youall :huh: , great stuff, I cannot believe I had not seen these posts before now :blush:. I guess I have been working on my 3d printer to much. Nate I did not know you were printing bobbins already, they are fabulous :cool: . I was wondering, --- how ferite cores are made, can they be cast, can ferite be melted and at what temperature, if so the lost wax investment casting method would be the way to go, like one would make a gold ring :D. What do you think, would it be possible? I think I will do a little experimenting.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on November 22nd, 2011, 07:29 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 22nd, 2011, 05:54 PM
Haxar, Nate, Russ and Kevin, I just found these posts from youall :huh: , great stuff, I cannot believe I had not seen these posts before now :blush:. I guess I have been working on my 3d printer to much. Nate I did not know you were printing bobbins already, they are fabulous :cool: . I was wondering, --- how ferite cores are made, can they be cast, can ferite be melted and at what temperature, if so the lost wax investment casting method would be the way to go, like one would make a gold ring :D. What do you think, would it be possible? I think I will do a little experimenting.
Hey Jeff, lol yeah these printers can consume your life.:P   Russ will have the bobbins I printed in a couple days.:cool:  I've switched from bobbins to printer parts for now.  Printer 1 is behaving very well now, so I'm making it ooze out parts as fast as I can.
   We are all wondering the same thing about the ferrite cores.  Zerofossilfuel is making muller motor cores with printer toner (magnetite) and epoxy in a casting mold.  I don't know how well that worked for him.  Melting ferrite is probably not the way to go.  I think it is powdered and compressed to reduce eddy currents.   But maybe it would work?  Would be interesting to know how Zero's cores compare to cores of the same size of factory ferrite cores.  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 22nd, 2011, 10:21 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 22nd, 2011, 08:19 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 21st, 2011, 11:14 PM
Quote from firepinto on November 21st, 2011, 07:13 PM
Here are my latest and greatest prints of the Haxar VIC bobbins.:cool:  I printed with out a raft this time.  I adjusted my Z home so that the first layer didn't flatten out, but still stuck to the bed.  The parts fit together tight, and need a little sanding to fit perfect.  Part of the tightness is from the slight warping when the part cools during printing.  These turned out really strong, I can't wait to see some wire turned on them.:D
I found a bunch of these ferrite bars from an out of business russian shop.. they are a little thick and a bit too short.  Could be made to work?:huh:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FERRITE-BARS-62x12x4mm-400HH-material-67-u-40-120pcs-/380387504420?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5890dcb124

Nate
holly crap that is sweet!

man i nee doe of those!!!!!! cant wait to see the bobbins Nate! on there way ?

wow i just love the way they look!!!!! your hard work on that printer is paying off!  

blessings!!

PS, the ferrite is to small... :(

~Russ
Thanks Kevin and Russ:)  I'll have the package out today!  I want to put a couple extra goodies in it first.:P  
My next goal is to build my new printer.  Specifically for building large parts that need water erasable supports.:cool:  I'm finding I'll have to design my own printer parts or modify existing designs to make it work.  It's gonna be a bit different.:P

Nate
well you can just print parts out so it wont take too long! lol SWEET!

cant wait to see it! good luck! !

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on November 24th, 2011, 04:36 AM
Years ago my brother made a hydraulic press out of a bottle jack an I beams . If the ferrite powder needs pressing into shape in a mould.
I've got a micrometals t650 iron dust core, when I've finished my russtic 7.0 I was going to give the Vic a shot on that core , dont know if it'll be any good
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 24th, 2011, 05:51 AM
Quote from phil on November 24th, 2011, 04:36 AM
Years ago my brother made a hydraulic press out of a bottle jack an I beams . If the ferrite powder needs pressing into shape in a mould.
I've got a micrometals t650 iron dust core, when I've finished my russtic 7.0 I was going to give the Vic a shot on that core , dont know if it'll be any good
It would be worth a try Phil, I have been doing a little research and found that dry ceramic powder can be mixed with ferrite powder, moistened, molded and then fired to make a ferrite core, same process to make bone china, that's one reason why ferrite cores are so easily broken.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 24th, 2011, 08:53 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 24th, 2011, 05:51 AM
Quote from phil on November 24th, 2011, 04:36 AM
Years ago my brother made a hydraulic press out of a bottle jack an I beams . If the ferrite powder needs pressing into shape in a mould.
I've got a micrometals t650 iron dust core, when I've finished my russtic 7.0 I was going to give the Vic a shot on that core , dont know if it'll be any good
It would be worth a try Phil, I have been doing a little research and found that dry ceramic powder can be mixed with ferrite powder, moistened, molded and then fired to make a ferrite core, same process to make bone china, that's one reason why ferrite cores are so easily broken.
All, please be ware that even tho we may be able to make these firrite cores, we got to make sure we can match the permeability! If its too low! We may as well use steel! Don't know how to calulater it but some one dose???? ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 29th, 2011, 03:04 AM
Quote from Oneminde on November 10th, 2011, 08:20 AM
Quote from firepinto on November 10th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Quote
Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)
It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too.  I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet.  I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011.  Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?  

Nate
I've attached the size for the core (original). In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be. So for now, you can drop testing an iron core. Here is a picture taken from the replicated core.

Regarding the gap in the bobbins, this added measurement will answer that question
so where were these cores from? who and what on these cores? what kind of data do we have? where can we get some?

thanks!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on November 29th, 2011, 03:09 AM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 06:17 PM
As for the electronics in Stan's original voltage intensifier circuit, I've done a trace of its card here:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3319/viccardtrace800px.png)(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4774/viccardtrace.png)

(click to enlarge or download the editable SVG image file zipped in the attachments)

I've drawn up the complete "functioning" schematic of the circuit as well:

(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1361/vicschem800px.png)(http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495)

(click for a printable PDF of the schematic)

The zipped schematic file in the attachments may only be compatible with gschem of the gEDA electronic toolkit, so compatibility varies.
hello haxar, so whats the word, and luck with this schematic? is it working as pland?

any adjustments that need to be made?

thanks!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Muxar on November 29th, 2011, 07:53 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 29th, 2011, 03:09 AM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 06:17 PM
As for the electronics in Stan's original voltage intensifier circuit, I've done a trace of its card here:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3319/viccardtrace800px.png)(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4774/viccardtrace.png)

(click to enlarge or download the editable SVG image file zipped in the attachments)

I've drawn up the complete "functioning" schematic of the circuit as well:

(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1361/vicschem800px.png)(http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495)

(click for a printable PDF of the schematic)

The zipped schematic file in the attachments may only be compatible with gschem of the gEDA electronic toolkit, so compatibility varies.
hello haxar, so whats the word, and luck with this schematic? is it working as pland?

any adjustments that need to be made?

thanks!

~Russ
Hey guys!
So it supouses that this circuit is going to give us the exact frecuency that is needed to split the water molecules at the most eficiency way?
Oh man! that´s exciting!!
good job Axar!! and thanks for sharing!!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on November 29th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 29th, 2011, 03:09 AM
hello haxar, so whats the word, and luck with this schematic? is it working as pland?

any adjustments that need to be made?

thanks!

~Russ
I'm awaiting for the Prusa Mendel kit and the fuel cell materials to come in so I can print out the bobbins, construct the transformer and the fuel cell for testing the circuit. So, no progress has been made to test and modify the circuit for now.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 29th, 2011, 01:29 PM
Quote from haxar on November 29th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on November 29th, 2011, 03:09 AM
hello haxar, so whats the word, and luck with this schematic? is it working as pland?

any adjustments that need to be made?

thanks!

~Russ
I'm awaiting for the Prusa Mendel kit and the fuel cell materials to come in so I can print out the bobbins, construct the transformer and the fuel cell for testing the circuit. So, no progress has been made to test and modify the circuit for now.
Hi Haxar, welcome to the Prusa family of 3d printers:cool:. Did you buy a complete kit or buy parts to build one like Nate and I? Either way if you need help, I am always around, if I can help I will, also everything Nate and I have done for this build is posted on this forum, Jeff.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 13th, 2011, 05:51 PM
[attachment=576][attachment=577]

I did a quick Sketchup of some snap-together round VIC bobbins.  The bobbin dimensions are similar to the Stan Meyer rectangular versions, except they are for a 0.4 inch round ferrite rod.  The end cap will hold the bobbins just as the original.  I added an area for a square ferrite rod in each cap.  No idea if a rod that size is available, but it leaves room to experiment.:)  There are two slots for zip ties in each cap instead of notches.  The diameter of the bobbin walls was calculated by matching the surface area with the original rectangular bobbin walls.
This should print with out the need of any supports.  I'm not around my printer till the weekend so I haven't tried it.:P  Can anyone think of any thing that could be added or changed?

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on December 13th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Quote from firepinto on December 13th, 2011, 05:51 PM
I did a quick Sketchup of some snap-together round VIC bobbins.  The bobbin dimensions are similar to the Stan Meyer rectangular versions, except they are for a 0.4 inch round ferrite rod.  The end cap will hold the bobbins just as the original.  I added an area for a square ferrite rod in each cap.  No idea if a rod that size is available, but it leaves room to experiment.:)  There are two slots for zip ties in each cap instead of notches.  The diameter of the bobbin walls was calculated by matching the surface area with the original rectangular bobbin walls.
This should print with out the need of any supports.  I'm not around my printer till the weekend so I haven't tried it.:P  Can anyone think of any thing that could be added or changed?

Nate
Those look awesome Nate.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on December 13th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on December 13th, 2011, 05:51 PM
I did a quick Sketchup of some snap-together round VIC bobbins.  The bobbin dimensions are similar to the Stan Meyer rectangular versions, except they are for a 0.4 inch round ferrite rod.  The end cap will hold the bobbins just as the original.  I added an area for a square ferrite rod in each cap.  No idea if a rod that size is available, but it leaves room to experiment.:)  There are two slots for zip ties in each cap instead of notches.  The diameter of the bobbin walls was calculated by matching the surface area with the original rectangular bobbin walls.
This should print with out the need of any supports.  I'm not around my printer till the weekend so I haven't tried it.:P  Can anyone think of any thing that could be added or changed?

Nate
nate, so this bobbin will pop together to give us 3 bobbing in one side? 2 bigger bobbing with a smaller one in the middle?

also, i'm looking for a core that will fit this type of setup and then we can make them for that core but with all the correct bobbin sizes...

i like!

open source! :) love it!

~Russ

PS. ill put my orders in soon :) lol
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 14th, 2011, 03:13 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on December 13th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Quote from firepinto on December 13th, 2011, 05:51 PM
I did a quick Sketchup of some snap-together round VIC bobbins.  The bobbin dimensions are similar to the Stan Meyer rectangular versions, except they are for a 0.4 inch round ferrite rod.  The end cap will hold the bobbins just as the original.  I added an area for a square ferrite rod in each cap.  No idea if a rod that size is available, but it leaves room to experiment.:)  There are two slots for zip ties in each cap instead of notches.  The diameter of the bobbin walls was calculated by matching the surface area with the original rectangular bobbin walls.
This should print with out the need of any supports.  I'm not around my printer till the weekend so I haven't tried it.:P  Can anyone think of any thing that could be added or changed?

Nate
nate, so this bobbin will pop together to give us 3 bobbing in one side? 2 bigger bobbing with a smaller one in the middle?

also, i'm looking for a core that will fit this type of setup and then we can make them for that core but with all the correct bobbin sizes...

i like!

open source! :) love it!

~Russ

PS. ill put my orders in soon :) lol
Yep, two of the longer half spools and two of the small round tips need to be printed for one side.  The other two halves are the middle part of the bobbin.  I can put together an exploded view of what the pieces look like put together later today.:)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on December 14th, 2011, 11:20 AM
Whats anyones thoughts on permalloy as a core material. Russ said that he needed a higher permebility core than the ferrite he had, permalloy has a permebility of 80000-100000. Its definatly higher but could this be too high?
I can get hold of 1/2 inch diameter 4 inch long for £120 ($200), its expensive yes but if its a better material im tempted to give it a go.
There are permalloy E-cores on ebay, again around the £100 mark but they arent very big, about 65mm overall length if i remember rightly.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 14th, 2011, 12:39 PM
Quote from phil on December 14th, 2011, 11:20 AM
Whats anyones thoughts on permalloy as a core material. Russ said that he needed a higher permebility core than the ferrite he had, permalloy has a permebility of 80000-100000. Its definatly higher but could this be too high?
I can get hold of 1/2 inch diameter 4 inch long for £120 ($200), its expensive yes but if its a better material im tempted to give it a go.
There are permalloy E-cores on ebay, again around the £100 mark but they arent very big, about 65mm overall length if i remember rightly.
Wow that is pricey.  Maybe if the permeability is that high, the cross-section of the core could be smaller?  Maybe 1/4" could work.  Sure seems like ferrite cores are hard to find.:-/

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on December 14th, 2011, 01:34 PM
Quote from firepinto on December 14th, 2011, 12:39 PM
Quote from phil on December 14th, 2011, 11:20 AM
Whats anyones thoughts on permalloy as a core material. Russ said that he needed a higher permebility core than the ferrite he had, permalloy has a permebility of 80000-100000. Its definatly higher but could this be too high?
I can get hold of 1/2 inch diameter 4 inch long for £120 ($200), its expensive yes but if its a better material im tempted to give it a go.
There are permalloy E-cores on ebay, again around the £100 mark but they arent very big, about 65mm overall length if i remember rightly.
Wow that is pricey.  Maybe if the permeability is that high, the cross-section of the core could be smaller?  Maybe 1/4" could work.  Sure seems like ferrite cores are hard to find.:-/
1/4 is only £10 cheaper than the 1/2 inch, the price of this stuff really drops off with the bigger quantities, they stock powder,rod, foil and tube. Heres the link, ive ordered some pure iron from these guys before    http://www.goodfellow.com/A/Magnetic-Shielding-Alloy.html

I have heard you have to keep this stuff really cool as the magnetic properties drop off with anything over 70C.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 14th, 2011, 02:15 PM
[attachment=578]
Here is the complete set picture.:)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on December 14th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Quote from firepinto on December 14th, 2011, 02:15 PM
Here is the complete set picture.:)

Nate
wow! yes! love it! now we need a core...

they make cores that are flats on the end and round in the center. like this :

(http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-m2/large-size-ferrite-core-422164.jpg)

so we just need to do some digging now...

but really you could print off square bobbins as well that all snap together! yeah! sweet!

nice work Nate! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 17th, 2011, 02:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Br0GxjQn_Y

Merry Christmas Everyone!

Sketchup and STL files are attatched:
[attachment=584]

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 27th, 2011, 09:46 PM
[attachment=659][attachment=660][attachment=661]

I gave my 6 in 1 round bobbins a test print today.:)  They look like they could work, but since I printed all the pieces at the same time they have a lot of globs to clean off.  Some fine tuning with a file is needed to get the pieces to go together.  Being so much smaller than the snap together spool I sent Russ, they don't have much flex.  I actually pressed a couple pieces together with a vice.  
I think if we find a ferrite core to use with a design like this, a larger diameter would make assembling the bobbins easier.  There isn't much room for me to tweak tolerances, since the center core walls are 2 mm thick .. and the walls for the joints are 1 mm thick.  With a .5 mm nozzle that only leaves room for 2 beads of plastic at the joints.  Thicker walls could be done, but I assume that the windings are better if they are closer to the core?  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on December 28th, 2011, 07:13 AM
Quote from firepinto on December 27th, 2011, 09:46 PM
I gave my 6 in 1 round bobbins a test print today.:)  They look like they could work, but since I printed all the pieces at the same time they have a lot of globs to clean off.  Some fine tuning with a file is needed to get the pieces to go together.  Being so much smaller than the snap together spool I sent Russ, they don't have much flex.  I actually pressed a couple pieces together with a vice.  
I think if we find a ferrite core to use with a design like this, a larger diameter would make assembling the bobbins easier.  There isn't much room for me to tweak tolerances, since the center core walls are 2 mm thick .. and the walls for the joints are 1 mm thick.  With a .5 mm nozzle that only leaves room for 2 beads of plastic at the joints.  Thicker walls could be done, but I assume that the windings are better if they are closer to the core?  

Nate
verry nice nate!

it dose appear you could use some cleaning up on those...

why is some so sloppy and some really nice?

i know on the pieces you sent me some are really nice and some not?

it the printer doing that or is it the tolerances of the motors or what?

any how fantastic!

~Russ

PS. Merry Christmas !!!!  

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 28th, 2011, 08:27 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on December 28th, 2011, 07:13 AM
Quote from firepinto on December 27th, 2011, 09:46 PM
I gave my 6 in 1 round bobbins a test print today.:)  They look like they could work, but since I printed all the pieces at the same time they have a lot of globs to clean off.  Some fine tuning with a file is needed to get the pieces to go together.  Being so much smaller than the snap together spool I sent Russ, they don't have much flex.  I actually pressed a couple pieces together with a vice.  
I think if we find a ferrite core to use with a design like this, a larger diameter would make assembling the bobbins easier.  There isn't much room for me to tweak tolerances, since the center core walls are 2 mm thick .. and the walls for the joints are 1 mm thick.  With a .5 mm nozzle that only leaves room for 2 beads of plastic at the joints.  Thicker walls could be done, but I assume that the windings are better if they are closer to the core?  

Nate
verry nice nate!

it dose appear you could use some cleaning up on those...

why is some so sloppy and some really nice?

i know on the pieces you sent me some are really nice and some not?

it the printer doing that or is it the tolerances of the motors or what?

any how fantastic!

~Russ

PS. Merry Christmas !!!!
The sloppiness on this set is because I made and STL file with all the pieces needed to make one complete set.  When the print head moves from one piece to the other a little "ooze" leaks out of the nozzle and stretches between the  parts.  Printing the pieces one by one would make them a lot cleaner, but takes much longer.  Now that I have the heated bed working, I have to wait for the bed to cool off before removing parts.  Otherwise they bend easily at 60 C.  Most other sloppiness I think is caused by the nozzle.  I'm hoping going to a smaller one will make prints much cleaner.  There are probably other settings I'm not aware of that could fix that too.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on December 28th, 2011, 11:11 AM
[/quote]The sloppiness on this set is because I made and STL file with all the pieces needed to make one complete set.  When the print head moves from one piece to the other a little "ooze" leaks out of the nozzle and stretches between the  parts.  Printing the pieces one by one would make them a lot cleaner, but takes much longer.  Now that I have the heated bed working, I have to wait for the bed to cool off before removing parts.  Otherwise they bend easily at 60 C.  Most other sloppiness I think is caused by the nozzle.  I'm hoping going to a smaller one will make prints much cleaner.  There are probably other settings I'm not aware of that could fix that too.

Nate[/quote]OK Nate!

i was just wondering! i did not know how that worked but that makes sense. also can you make the round edges more round? is that the limit of your motor of the software?

looks good any how nate!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on December 28th, 2011, 12:07 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on December 28th, 2011, 11:11 AM
The sloppiness on this set is because I made and STL file with all the pieces needed to make one complete set.  When the print head moves from one piece to the other a little "ooze" leaks out of the nozzle and stretches between the  parts.  Printing the pieces one by one would make them a lot cleaner, but takes much longer.  Now that I have the heated bed working, I have to wait for the bed to cool off before removing parts.  Otherwise they bend easily at 60 C.  Most other sloppiness I think is caused by the nozzle.  I'm hoping going to a smaller one will make prints much cleaner.  There are probably other settings I'm not aware of that could fix that too.

Nate[/quote]OK Nate!

i was just wondering! i did not know how that worked but that makes sense. also can you make the round edges more round? is that the limit of your motor of the software?

looks good any how nate!

~Russ[/quote]Thanks Russ!
The roundness would have to be done in the sketchup file.:)  The larger the circle, the more faces that would have to be added to keep it more round.  I created a gear for my new printer that I used a lot more faces, and it turned out really smooth in the center.  Definitely going to be some learning and tweaking along the way.:D

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: DanB on January 3rd, 2012, 03:47 PM
haxar very nice job on the schematic, I know what a pain it is to trace circuit boards. Do you have any idea where the 2N3055 TO3 transistor fits into the mix? I see all the pancake VICs have one.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on January 3rd, 2012, 09:19 PM
Quote from DanB on January 3rd, 2012, 03:47 PM
haxar very nice job on the schematic, I know what a pain it is to trace circuit boards. Do you have any idea where the 2N3055 TO3 transistor fits into the mix? I see all the pancake VICs have one.
99% sure its for the voltage control here: see attachment
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waqas148 on January 4th, 2012, 01:20 PM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 07:45 PM
Quote from h2opower on November 16th, 2011, 07:29 PM
I have a question, in looking at the circuit R47 220 can't be correct can it? For if a resistor is place across an inductor doesn't that bypass the inductor? As that looks like a resistor hooked up from positive straight to ground. Also R21 and R36 seem to be hooked up oddly. I am not all the great with circuits but I do know electronics okay.

h2opower
Yes, R47 is wired across the primary coil to restrict current heating up the coil. The resistor should reference this post by Dynodon on ionizationx:
Quote
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don

The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
Source: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg19079.html#msg19079
I found several mistakes in the Haxar's posted schematic (although i know its not deliberately done!!! ;) ) so i thought to share a tested schematic which actually lock on to the resonance frequency!!!! ..... feel free to ask any question!!! ;)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on January 4th, 2012, 11:34 PM
Quote from waqas148 on January 4th, 2012, 01:20 PM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 07:45 PM
Quote from h2opower on November 16th, 2011, 07:29 PM
I have a question, in looking at the circuit R47 220 can't be correct can it? For if a resistor is place across an inductor doesn't that bypass the inductor? As that looks like a resistor hooked up from positive straight to ground. Also R21 and R36 seem to be hooked up oddly. I am not all the great with circuits but I do know electronics okay.

h2opower
Yes, R47 is wired across the primary coil to restrict current heating up the coil. The resistor should reference this post by Dynodon on ionizationx:
Quote
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don

The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
Source: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg19079.html#msg19079
I found several mistakes in the Haxar's posted schematic (although i know its not deliberately done!!! ;) ) so i thought to share a tested schematic which actually lock on to the resonance frequency!!!! ..... feel free to ask any question!!! ;)
fantastic everyone!!!! just fantastic!!!!

now, we need some video!!! :)

also on the driver circuit. i build that and not much luck. yours work well?

and on the feedback coil, Stan's was not wires like that it was a one 2 wire thing. but if it works ... Sweet!

I'm saying this as its what i have seen from the sketches that don (dynodon) made of the Vic from when he had it.

are you running a cell or just pulsing something else?

if a cell, are you making gas?

and lastly dose the resonant frequency change constantly?
 
good work!! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 5th, 2012, 01:47 AM
Quote from waqas148 on January 4th, 2012, 01:20 PM
I found several mistakes in the Haxar's posted schematic (although i know its not deliberately done!!! ;) )
What is the mistake or inconsistency with the current "functional" VIC schematic? The VIC schematic in its current state has not been tested yet as I need to build a hydroxy cell and the VIC coil pack to test it.

Revised versions (patches) of the schematic are welcome by the way.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waqas148 on January 5th, 2012, 07:33 AM
Quote
fantastic everyone!!!! just fantastic!!!!

now, we need some video!!! :)

also on the driver circuit. i build that and not much luck. yours work well?

and on the feedback coil, Stan's was not wires like that it was a one 2 wire thing. but if it works ... Sweet!

I'm saying this as its what i have seen from the sketches that don (dynodon) made of the Vic from when he had it.

are you running a cell or just pulsing something else?

if a cell, are you making gas?

and lastly dose the resonant frequency change constantly?
 
good work!! ~Russ
Hi Russ!!!! good to hear from you :)
I am currently working on PIC Micro-controller based VIC resonant scanner circuit .... its been quite sometime i used this posted schematic and it worked.... its not my design so i will not get credit for it, its a team work (including dynodon) being done almost an year ago on another Research Forum.... I just made it available to this Forum cheers!!! :)
but I will answer your questions one by one :
Quote
on the driver circuit. i build that and not much luck. yours work well?
The driver circuit in the posted schematic works well with Bipolar Transistors.... use exact values as specified.
If you use a MOSFET as a Driver then see the attached schematic that i use to drive it perfectly ;)
MOSFET Driver is RECOMMENDED !!!
Quote
on the feedback coil, Stan's was not wires like that it was a one 2 wire thing
I used a center tapped pickup coil as showed in schematic.... but two wire could also be done just a little change to the opamp feedback circuit.... basically the output of the opamp feedback generates the square wave signal whose frequency is equal to the natural oscillation of the transformer when the transformer is driven for the first time... then the RESONANT SCANNER CIRCUIT in the schematic tries to catch up with it using PLL and Locks on when both frequencies matches up.
Quote
are you running a cell or just pulsing something else?
if a cell, are you making gas?
YES!!! i am running a single tube cell and YES!!! i am making gas ... but my setup doesn't have a VIC transformer... i am using bifiler Choke driven by P-Channel MOSFET on High side and wounded pickup coil on the core....  my gas production is a little greater than the dynodon's video.... with 12V 0.6Amps ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtf7y6cH7SE

Most Recently i will do a video of my own with my MICRO-CONTROLLER resonance circuit ;)
Quote
and lastly dose the resonant frequency change constantly?
Not frequently!!! it changes as soon as i put some electrolyte :)


Quote from haxar on January 5th, 2012, 01:47 AM
Quote from waqas148 on January 4th, 2012, 01:20 PM
I found several mistakes in the Haxar's posted schematic (although i know its not deliberately done!!! ;) )
What is the mistake or inconsistency with the current "functional" VIC schematic? The VIC schematic in its current state has not been tested yet as I need to build a hydroxy cell and the VIC coil pack to test it.

Revised versions (patches) of the schematic are welcome by the way.
Hi Haxar!!! by mistakes i didn't meant to object you... its simply the values of components that need to be changed and like the R47 should be in series with primary.....etc etc
 as i dont have the software in which you built your schematic so plz make modifications to your schematic by looking at my posted schematic because the one i posted works 100% and tested by at least 5 guys around the world :)

keep up the good work guys!!!!!! we can do it and we will do it even better ;)
Have a nice day :)


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 6th, 2012, 03:48 PM
Quote from haxar on January 5th, 2012, 01:47 AM
Quote from waqas148 on January 4th, 2012, 01:20 PM
I found several mistakes in the Haxar's posted schematic (although i know its not deliberately done!!! ;) )
What is the mistake or inconsistency with the current "functional" VIC schematic? The VIC schematic in its current state has not been tested yet as I need to build a hydroxy cell and the VIC coil pack to test it.

Revised versions (patches) of the schematic are welcome by the way.
Hi Haxar,
I am building the circuit from your schematic to test it. I was wondering why there is 10V at various places. I would expect 5V or 12V but not 10V. Is that neccesary or can i replace them with 12V. I am hooking up the circuit to a car battery and have also a 7805 to generate the 5V.


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 7th, 2012, 02:02 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 6th, 2012, 03:48 PM
Hi Haxar,
I am building the circuit from your schematic to test it. I was wondering why there is 10V at various places. I would expect 5V or 12V but not 10V. Is that neccesary or can i replace them with 12V. I am hooking up the circuit to a car battery and have also a 7805 to generate the 5V.
The whole VIC circuit can be powered at 5 volts.

The 7400 series TTL chips can only be powered at 5 volts. The 4000 series CMOS chips can also be powered at 5 volts and are designed to be powered at 10 volts and greater (to 15 volts).

There are also some spots, specifically in Stan's international patent WO92/07861 (figure 8 - resonant scanning circuit), that hints to use 10 volts but obviously testing is needed to determine if 10 volts is necessary.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 7th, 2012, 06:13 AM
Quote from haxar on January 7th, 2012, 02:02 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 6th, 2012, 03:48 PM
Hi Haxar,
I am building the circuit from your schematic to test it. I was wondering why there is 10V at various places. I would expect 5V or 12V but not 10V. Is that neccesary or can i replace them with 12V. I am hooking up the circuit to a car battery and have also a 7805 to generate the 5V.
The whole VIC circuit can be powered at 5 volts.

The 7400 series TTL chips can only be powered at 5 volts. The 4000 series CMOS chips can also be powered at 5 volts and are designed to be powered at 10 volts and greater (to 15 volts).

There are also some spots, specifically in Stan's international patent WO92/07861 (figure 8 - resonant scanning circuit), that hints to use 10 volts but obviously testing is needed to determine if 10 volts is necessary.
Ok, thats clear, i already have all TTL IC's at 5V, i was hinting more to the 10V in the cell driver part. The TIP120 is connected to 12V but i was wondering why the other transistors are connected to 10V and not 12V as well. The datasheet seems to indicate they have no problem with 12V instead of 10V. I was just wondering if there is a reason to use the 10V at those points that i am not aware off.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Thanks Haxar and Waqas148 for the schematics

Haxar, Can you post a high res photo of your schematic please. Also A white background makes it more printer friendly :). Also what are your thoughts to Waqas148 possible corrections to your schematics? are you in agreement?

Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
http://www.expresspcb.com/(http://www.expresspcb.com/)
You can find examples of my work with these programs here
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178)


Offtopic:
Check out this crazy Deal!! After Blowing my UBS Scope this is my next buy...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649(http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 9th, 2012, 02:03 PM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Haxar, Can you post a high res photo of your schematic please. Also A white background makes it more printer friendly :). Also what are your thoughts to Waqas148 possible corrections to your schematics? are you in agreement?
A PDF of the schematic is there when you click on the image at post #27 in this thread(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=1777#pid1777); here is the direct link to the PDF:

http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495

I don't see any "corrections" to be made at this point as testing of the VIC circuit has not begun yet due to the VIC transformer.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 9th, 2012, 02:05 PM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Thanks Haxar and Waqas148 for the schematics

Haxar, Can you post a high res photo of your schematic please. Also A white background makes it more printer friendly :). Also what are your thoughts to Waqas148 possible corrections to your schematics? are you in agreement?

Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
http://www.expresspcb.com/(http://www.expresspcb.com/)
You can find examples of my work with these programs here
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178)


Offtopic:
Check out this crazy Deal!! After Blowing my UBS Scope this is my next buy...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649(http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
An other question about the Haxar schematic, ... the 74122 is not present on the VIC card, is it a replacement part or did you change the schematic after doing the trace of the vic card?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 9th, 2012, 02:08 PM
Quote from haxar on January 9th, 2012, 02:03 PM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Haxar, Can you post a high res photo of your schematic please. Also A white background makes it more printer friendly :). Also what are your thoughts to Waqas148 possible corrections to your schematics? are you in agreement?
A PDF of the schematic is there when you click on the image at post #27 in this thread(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=1777#pid1777); here is the direct link to the PDF:

http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495

I don't see any "corrections" to be made at this point as testing of the VIC circuit has not begun yet due to the VIC transformer.
An other question about the Haxar schematic, ... the 74122 is not present on the VIC card, is it a replacement part or did you change the schematic after doing the trace of the vic card?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 9th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 9th, 2012, 02:08 PM
An other question about the Haxar schematic, ... the 74122 is not present on the VIC card, is it a replacement part or did you change the schematic after doing the trace of the vic card?
The Variable Pulse Frequency and the Gated Pulse Frequency sub-circuits are a part of the Gas Management System unit which connect to the VIC unit, not a part of the VIC card.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: shadowfc on January 10th, 2012, 03:42 AM
Quote from haxar on January 9th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 9th, 2012, 02:08 PM
An other question about the Haxar schematic, ... the 74122 is not present on the VIC card, is it a replacement part or did you change the schematic after doing the trace of the vic card?
The Variable Pulse Frequency and the Gated Pulse Frequency sub-circuits are a part of the Gas Management System unit which connect to the VIC unit, not a part of the VIC card.
Thanks for your work, Haxar! I have a question about Gated Pulse Freq Generator: could i use a 74123 instead of 74122 with some modifications?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waqas148 on January 11th, 2012, 11:34 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
http://www.expresspcb.com/(http://www.expresspcb.com/)
You can find examples of my work with these programs here
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178)


Offtopic:
Check out this crazy Deal!! After Blowing my UBS Scope this is my next buy...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649(http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
Hi kevin!!
i currently dont have any PCB of the schematic... as i built it on the Bread Board to test it.... but i would try to make a PCB of it asap but i think it would take time coz i as i said before that i am currently working on a PIC micro based circuit and nowadays i am working on its PCB ( i use Proteus for PCB)
and lastly
thanx for the advice ... i will look at the ExpressPCB software...  ;)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waqas148 on January 11th, 2012, 11:35 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
Hi kevin!!
i currently dont have any PCB of the schematic... as i built it on the Bread Board to test it.... but i would try to make a PCB of it asap but i think it would take time coz i as i said before that i am currently working on a PIC micro based circuit and nowadays i am working on its PCB ( i use Proteus for PCB)
and lastly
thanx for the advice ... i will look at the ExpressPCB software...  ;)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: phil on January 11th, 2012, 12:21 PM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Thanks Haxar and Waqas148 for the schematics

Haxar, Can you post a high res photo of your schematic please. Also A white background makes it more printer friendly :). Also what are your thoughts to Waqas148 possible corrections to your schematics? are you in agreement?

Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
http://www.expresspcb.com/(http://www.expresspcb.com/)
You can find examples of my work with these programs here
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=178)


Offtopic:
Check out this crazy Deal!! After Blowing my UBS Scope this is my next buy...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649(http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220817846900?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)
Id never used an pcb software before or even etched a board myself, board turned out perfect 1st time, its only half assembled tho. I should really get on and finish it just got so many other bits and pieces going on just now.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 11th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote from waqas148 on January 11th, 2012, 11:35 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
Hi kevin!!
i currently dont have any PCB of the schematic... as i built it on the Bread Board to test it.... but i would try to make a PCB of it asap but i think it would take time coz i as i said before that i am currently working on a PIC micro based circuit and nowadays i am working on its PCB ( i use Proteus for PCB)
and lastly
thanx for the advice ... i will look at the ExpressPCB software...  ;)
Kevin, Russ,
ExpressPCB is usefull for simple pcb design but lacks a lot of important functions like simulation, autorouter, gerber files.I think there is a need to decide on which software to use. I think there are two good alternatives (both open source software):
- gEDA suite (linux-mac, partial windows binaries available)
- KiCAD (all platforms)

Any ideas on this?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waqas148 on January 12th, 2012, 12:12 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 11th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote from waqas148 on January 11th, 2012, 11:35 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
Hi kevin!!
i currently dont have any PCB of the schematic... as i built it on the Bread Board to test it.... but i would try to make a PCB of it asap but i think it would take time coz i as i said before that i am currently working on a PIC micro based circuit and nowadays i am working on its PCB ( i use Proteus for PCB)
and lastly
thanx for the advice ... i will look at the ExpressPCB software...  ;)
Kevin, Russ,
ExpressPCB is usefull for simple pcb design but lacks a lot of important functions like simulation, autorouter, gerber files.I think there is a need to decide on which software to use. I think there are two good alternatives (both open source software):
- gEDA suite (linux-mac, partial windows binaries available)
- KiCAD (all platforms)

Any ideas on this?
hi !!!
i use proteus, which has simulation autoplacer, autorouter , gerber output , pdf output and many more... but its a little expensive to buy... else someone downloads the portable version :P
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on January 12th, 2012, 08:19 AM
Quote from waqas148 on January 12th, 2012, 12:12 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 11th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote from waqas148 on January 11th, 2012, 11:35 AM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 9th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Waqas148 is there a PCB Board for your shematic in the works? , Russ Wants one as well... I'd be willing to make put it together on Express PCB. I also don't completely understand the circuit yet.

Waqas148 I highly recommend ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH for drawing schematics and PCB's. These were Russ's recomendations, and after downloading just about every program, this was my top pick as well and especially for userability.
---How too make custom parts. Select Part, Go to Component/Ungroup Component  turn them into whatever you want, then Regroup.. and presto.     and Its totally free, so easy to share and edit with one another
Hi kevin!!
i currently dont have any PCB of the schematic... as i built it on the Bread Board to test it.... but i would try to make a PCB of it asap but i think it would take time coz i as i said before that i am currently working on a PIC micro based circuit and nowadays i am working on its PCB ( i use Proteus for PCB)
and lastly
thanx for the advice ... i will look at the ExpressPCB software...  ;)
Kevin, Russ,
ExpressPCB is usefull for simple pcb design but lacks a lot of important functions like simulation, autorouter, gerber files.I think there is a need to decide on which software to use. I think there are two good alternatives (both open source software):
- gEDA suite (linux-mac, partial windows binaries available)
- KiCAD (all platforms)

Any ideas on this?
hi !!!
i use proteus, which has simulation autoplacer, autorouter , gerber output , pdf output and many more... but its a little expensive to buy... else someone downloads the portable version :P
I've downloaded a bunch of cracked versions of these fancier programs. Alot of them are overwelming and take some serious time to learn.

what is autorouter, gerber files? Is Auto Placer for laying out PCB? Russ Explained to me not to trust the auto placer, and to do PCB by hand. So I have.

Keep in mind alot of us may only need a program to draw a schematic and PCB layout. I personally don't have time to learn these fancy programs. But If your a hardcore electronics guru then to each there own.

The downfall to ExpressPCB is it is only for windows.  So maybe gEDA suite or KiCAD could be an option . So Far I am really happy with Express PCB with how easy it was to start using right away and to create parts (A downfall was not being able to cut from one window and paste into another)


Maybe we should start a new form for this discussion?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on January 12th, 2012, 09:06 AM
I know reprap has an option to draw out PCB's for etching with a sharpie.  I think it uses gerber files.  I think there was a way to convert expresspcb, but took like 4 differtent programs and was complicated.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: DanB on January 13th, 2012, 06:08 PM
Kevin-W

I use ExpressSCH alot. You can copy a section (it's easyer if you make it a group) to the clipboard then open the other file you want to add the section to and it will still be in the clipboard so you can paste it. I didn't say it was convienent.

I also like their mini-prototype board. 3 boards double sided with plated through holes for $51.00 even if I need to split up the design into many boards. And delived in 3 days by FEDx. I also made 4 layer boards that came out real nice, 3 boards about $100.00

But I do use Windows.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 06:10 AM
Haxar,
I switched to KICAD and started to work out your schematic. After testing i made some small changes to some component values, also your cell driver 220 ohm/1 watt resister needs to be in series with the coil instead of parralel, otherwise the current will not be reduced and the coil still gets very hot. With the 220 ohm resister in series the  current will be reduced to about 50 miliamps. See my new thread to work out the compete VIC.
Regards,
Sharky
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 18th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 06:10 AM
Haxar,
I switched to KICAD and started to work out your schematic. After testing i made some small changes to some component values, also your cell driver 220 ohm/1 watt resister needs to be in series with the coil instead of parralel, otherwise the current will not be reduced and the coil still gets very hot. With the 220 ohm resister in series the  current will be reduced to about 50 miliamps. See my new thread to work out the compete VIC.
Regards,
Sharky
The 220 ohm resistor for the primary coil is referenced here on ionizationx:

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg19079.html#msg19079
Quote
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don

The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
Title: Build VIC card and VIC coils
Post by: milan on January 18th, 2012, 12:41 PM
[attachment=712] [attachment=714] Does anyone know if this pattern is correct? I made mine under this scheme does not work.
Title: RE: Build VIC card and VIC coils
Post by: Aurgus on January 18th, 2012, 01:39 PM
Quote from milan on January 18th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Does anyone know if this pattern is correct? I made mine under this scheme does not work.
R42 is a 1K to start with
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Quote from haxar on January 18th, 2012, 11:25 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 06:10 AM
Haxar,
I switched to KICAD and started to work out your schematic. After testing i made some small changes to some component values, also your cell driver 220 ohm/1 watt resister needs to be in series with the coil instead of parralel, otherwise the current will not be reduced and the coil still gets very hot. With the 220 ohm resister in series the  current will be reduced to about 50 miliamps. See my new thread to work out the compete VIC.
Regards,
Sharky
The 220 ohm resistor for the primary coil is referenced here on ionizationx:

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg19079.html#msg19079
Quote
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don

The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
Hi Haxar,
I know, i read that thread as well but just that somebody says so does not make it true, .... i am still pretty sure it needs to be in series and not parallel. Actually it just is Ohms law, allthough there is some voltage over the transistor we can roughly calculate the current through the primairy coil as -> U = I x R -> I = U / R = 12 / 10.5 = 1.14 Amps through the coil. So not so strange it gets hot. If you put a resistor of 220 ohms in parallel with the 10.5 ohm you get a new total replacement resistance of  9.5652 (Rtot = 1 / (1/R1 + 1/R2))which is less than the original. Since current always takes the road of less resistance it will still pass through the coil and not through the resistor of 220 ohm. If you put it in series with the coil the new resistance is 230.5 ohms which result in 12/230.5 = 0.052 amps which passes through both resistor and coil. Since P=U x I = 12 x 0.052 you need a resistor that can handle minimum 0.52 watts, ... thus the 1 watt 220 ohm resistor.

Just test it and you will see the result, ... not to long though because you will burn the TIP120 if you do ;).
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 18th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Hi Haxar,
I know, i read that thread as well but just that somebody says so does not make it true, ....
Dynodon is the original source for this VIC research to be possible.
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
i am still pretty sure it needs to be in series and not parallel. Actually it just is Ohms law, allthough there is some voltage over the transistor we can roughly calculate the current through the primairy coil as -> U = I x R -> I = U / R = 12 / 10.5 = 1.14 Amps through the coil. So not so strange it gets hot. If you put a resistor of 220 ohms in parallel with the 10.5 ohm you get a new total replacement resistance of  9.5652 (Rtot = 1 / (1/R1 + 1/R2))which is less than the original. Since current always takes the road of less resistance it will still pass through the coil and not through the resistor of 220 ohm. If you put it in series with the coil the new resistance is 230.5 ohms which result in 12/230.5 = 0.052 amps which passes through both resistor and coil. Since P=U x I = 12 x 0.052 you need a resistor that can handle minimum 0.52 watts, ... thus the 1 watt 220 ohm resistor.

Just test it and you will see the result, ... not to long though because you will burn the TIP120 if you do ;).
From Stan's estate photos, my impression is that there are multiple 220 ohm resistors combined in parallel effectively lowering the resistance from 220 ohms to the primary coil wired in series.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on January 18th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Quote from haxar on January 18th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Hi Haxar,
I know, i read that thread as well but just that somebody says so does not make it true, ....
Dynodon is the original source for this VIC research to be possible.
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
i am still pretty sure it needs to be in series and not parallel. Actually it just is Ohms law, allthough there is some voltage over the transistor we can roughly calculate the current through the primairy coil as -> U = I x R -> I = U / R = 12 / 10.5 = 1.14 Amps through the coil. So not so strange it gets hot. If you put a resistor of 220 ohms in parallel with the 10.5 ohm you get a new total replacement resistance of  9.5652 (Rtot = 1 / (1/R1 + 1/R2))which is less than the original. Since current always takes the road of less resistance it will still pass through the coil and not through the resistor of 220 ohm. If you put it in series with the coil the new resistance is 230.5 ohms which result in 12/230.5 = 0.052 amps which passes through both resistor and coil. Since P=U x I = 12 x 0.052 you need a resistor that can handle minimum 0.52 watts, ... thus the 1 watt 220 ohm resistor.

Just test it and you will see the result, ... not to long though because you will burn the TIP120 if you do ;).
From Stan's estate photos, my impression is that there are multiple 220 ohm resistors combined in parallel effectively lowering the resistance from 220 ohms to the primary coil wired in series.
ummmmmm.... just some thoughts but is not the coils pulsed? thus the calculation is not correct unless you add the duty cycle and frequency to the mix?  

from my experience the higher the frequency even if at the same duty cycle the less current draw...

just my thoughts...

i agree that the resister is in parallel with  primary. the reason is to "tune" the the VIC or make up for some lost space by cramming all that stuff in a small slot... so if one can tune with a resister insted of a bunch of copper wire... do it.

but like i said, just some thoughts. and also we will not know till we try... depending on the cell. we may all need something different... ???

~Russ
Title: VIC board and vic coils
Post by: milan on January 19th, 2012, 03:38 AM
[attachment=724][attachment=723]

Does anyone know what the problem with this circuit ? I did my version and does not work.
Title: RE: VIC board and vic coils
Post by: Gunther Rattay on January 19th, 2012, 09:41 AM
Quote from milan on January 19th, 2012, 03:38 AM
Does anyone know what the problem with this circuit ? I did my version and does not work.
you have to trace the circuit: first check for no shortcuts in voltage supply, then check voltage points, then check pulse signal creation and propagation thru the circuit componentes. then you can find the problem and fix it. it´s a good idea to start debugging with a pcb not fully assembled with ICs and then add those ICs step by step. without understanding of functionality of those discrete components you can´t  debug.
Title: How is the pickup coil connected?
Post by: Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 09:26 AM
In figure 9 the pickup coil is pictured with a center tap connected to +5V, in all other schematics it is draw as a normal straight forward coil. If i take a look at Tony Woodsides VIC card connections ( http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit_Connections.png ) he also uses just a two wire coil connection. Is simply one end connected to +5V and the other end connected to the two resistors in parallel to the opamp? In other words just an other way of drawing the coil connection or really a coil with a center tab?
Title: RE: How is the pickup coil connected?
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on January 23rd, 2012, 10:53 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 09:26 AM
In figure 9 the pickup coil is pictured with a center tap connected to +5V, in all other schematics it is draw as a normal straight forward coil. If i take a look at Tony Woodsides VIC card connections (http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit_Connections.png) he also uses just a two wire coil connection. Is simply one end connected to +5V and the other end connected to the two resistors in parallel to the opamp? In other words just an other way of drawing the coil connection or really a coil with a center tab?
Link Doesn't work
Title: RE: How is the pickup coil connected?
Post by: Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 03:03 PM
Quote from KevinW-dirtwill on January 23rd, 2012, 10:53 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 09:26 AM
In figure 9 the pickup coil is pictured with a center tap connected to +5V, in all other schematics it is draw as a normal straight forward coil. If i take a look at Tony Woodsides VIC card connections ( http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit_Connections.png ) he also uses just a two wire coil connection. Is simply one end connected to +5V and the other end connected to the two resistors in parallel to the opamp? In other words just an other way of drawing the coil connection or really a coil with a center tab?
Link Doesn't work
OK, fixed it in the original post
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 03:08 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Quote from haxar on January 18th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Hi Haxar,
I know, i read that thread as well but just that somebody says so does not make it true, ....
Dynodon is the original source for this VIC research to be possible.
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
i am still pretty sure it needs to be in series and not parallel. Actually it just is Ohms law, allthough there is some voltage over the transistor we can roughly calculate the current through the primairy coil as -> U = I x R -> I = U / R = 12 / 10.5 = 1.14 Amps through the coil. So not so strange it gets hot. If you put a resistor of 220 ohms in parallel with the 10.5 ohm you get a new total replacement resistance of  9.5652 (Rtot = 1 / (1/R1 + 1/R2))which is less than the original. Since current always takes the road of less resistance it will still pass through the coil and not through the resistor of 220 ohm. If you put it in series with the coil the new resistance is 230.5 ohms which result in 12/230.5 = 0.052 amps which passes through both resistor and coil. Since P=U x I = 12 x 0.052 you need a resistor that can handle minimum 0.52 watts, ... thus the 1 watt 220 ohm resistor.

Just test it and you will see the result, ... not to long though because you will burn the TIP120 if you do ;).
From Stan's estate photos, my impression is that there are multiple 220 ohm resistors combined in parallel effectively lowering the resistance from 220 ohms to the primary coil wired in series.
ummmmmm.... just some thoughts but is not the coils pulsed? thus the calculation is not correct unless you add the duty cycle and frequency to the mix?  

from my experience the higher the frequency even if at the same duty cycle the less current draw...

just my thoughts...

i agree that the resister is in parallel with  primary. the reason is to "tune" the the VIC or make up for some lost space by cramming all that stuff in a small slot... so if one can tune with a resister insted of a bunch of copper wire... do it.

but like i said, just some thoughts. and also we will not know till we try... depending on the cell. we may all need something different... ???

~Russ
While searching for information on connecting the feedback coil i encountered the connection schema of the VIC card of Tony Woodside ( http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit_Connections.png ), ... seems that i am not the only one that thinks the resistor needs to be in series with the primary coil. I think that the pictures that seems to show various resistors in parallel with the primary may actually be several resistors in parallel but all together in series with the primary...? Anyway, ... when all is finished testing will show the results.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: pakakezu on January 23rd, 2012, 05:02 PM
At this photo is clear Meyer connected the resistor parallel with the primary.  At the resistors leads are three wires(primary-rezistor-wire from card). And the parallel blocking diode is located on the pcb.
Title: RE: How is the pickup coil connected?
Post by: ~Russ on January 24th, 2012, 01:27 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 09:26 AM
In figure 9 the pickup coil is pictured with a center tap connected to +5V, in all other schematics it is draw as a normal straight forward coil. If i take a look at Tony Woodsides VIC card connections ( http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit_Connections.png ) he also uses just a two wire coil connection. Is simply one end connected to +5V and the other end connected to the two resistors in parallel to the opamp? In other words just an other way of drawing the coil connection or really a coil with a center tab?
what you need to know is this is a systems engineering platform. so in stans schematics are just that. but, when don checked the VIC he took apart. it was only connected to the center tap and the other wire was not connected to anything...

stan changed stuff as he needed to... thus we just need to test every variation till we get the result we need. ???

thanks, ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on January 24th, 2012, 01:29 AM
Quote from Sharky on January 23rd, 2012, 03:08 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 18th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Quote from haxar on January 18th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Hi Haxar,
I know, i read that thread as well but just that somebody says so does not make it true, ....
Dynodon is the original source for this VIC research to be possible.
Quote from Sharky on January 18th, 2012, 02:22 PM
i am still pretty sure it needs to be in series and not parallel. Actually it just is Ohms law, allthough there is some voltage over the transistor we can roughly calculate the current through the primairy coil as -> U = I x R -> I = U / R = 12 / 10.5 = 1.14 Amps through the coil. So not so strange it gets hot. If you put a resistor of 220 ohms in parallel with the 10.5 ohm you get a new total replacement resistance of  9.5652 (Rtot = 1 / (1/R1 + 1/R2))which is less than the original. Since current always takes the road of less resistance it will still pass through the coil and not through the resistor of 220 ohm. If you put it in series with the coil the new resistance is 230.5 ohms which result in 12/230.5 = 0.052 amps which passes through both resistor and coil. Since P=U x I = 12 x 0.052 you need a resistor that can handle minimum 0.52 watts, ... thus the 1 watt 220 ohm resistor.

Just test it and you will see the result, ... not to long though because you will burn the TIP120 if you do ;).
From Stan's estate photos, my impression is that there are multiple 220 ohm resistors combined in parallel effectively lowering the resistance from 220 ohms to the primary coil wired in series.
ummmmmm.... just some thoughts but is not the coils pulsed? thus the calculation is not correct unless you add the duty cycle and frequency to the mix?  

from my experience the higher the frequency even if at the same duty cycle the less current draw...

just my thoughts...

i agree that the resister is in parallel with  primary. the reason is to "tune" the the VIC or make up for some lost space by cramming all that stuff in a small slot... so if one can tune with a resister insted of a bunch of copper wire... do it.

but like i said, just some thoughts. and also we will not know till we try... depending on the cell. we may all need something different... ???

~Russ
While searching for information on connecting the feedback coil i encountered the connection schema of the VIC card of Tony Woodside ( http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit_Connections.png ), ... seems that i am not the only one that thinks the resistor needs to be in series with the primary coil. I think that the pictures that seems to show various resistors in parallel with the primary may actually be several resistors in parallel but all together in series with the primary...? Anyway, ... when all is finished testing will show the results.
what you need to know is this is a systems engineering platform. so in stans schematics are just that. but, when don checked the VIC he took apart. it was only connected to the center tap and the other wire was not connected to anything...

stan changed stuff as he needed to... thus we just need to test every variation till we get the result we need. ???

tests will show the result! yes!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on January 24th, 2012, 02:32 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on January 24th, 2012, 01:27 AM
what you need to know is this is a systems engineering platform. so in stans schematics are just that. but, when don checked the VIC he took apart. it was only connected to the center tap and the other wire was not connected to anything...

stan changed stuff as he needed to... thus we just need to test every variation till we get the result we need. ???

thanks, ~Russ
This sketch from the estate data should confirm one side of the feedback coil is only used for the circuit:

[attachment=761]
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on January 24th, 2012, 03:08 AM
Quote from haxar on January 24th, 2012, 02:32 AM
This sketch from the estate data should confirm one side of the feedback coil is only used for the circuit:
Thank you haxar for that sketch! So it should be like in the attached image. While at it, .... is the opamp an 741 or 318? In your schematic it has both, to me a lm318 seems more obvious for its faster switching time (70V/uS against 0.5V/uS).
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on February 3rd, 2012, 03:33 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on February 3rd, 2012, 01:35 AM
josh is working on the cores for the VIC's and we will have some to test thanks to Chris. he is working hard to get the things we need to make standards...

i know you don't know Chris or josh but you will soon.
Tonight, I just completed a test run of the VIC circuit with the transformer and cell and found the custom magnetite cores with their specific mixture with epoxy wasn't enough to hold any electromagnetic field, therefore revealing nothing being produced on the secondary side of the transformer.

I'll be trying better mixing ratios with the magnetite as it is trial and error and hopefully Josh's cores will come in.




Here's an update on the sketch to print and build the VIC transformer which now includes the core mold and an experimental coil hand winder. Changed the VIC bobbin to print in two separate pieces so that when printing them, bridging will not be an issue. See attachments.

[attachment=808]

Current replication progress:

~50 turns/ohm
1.3" == ~106 turns/layer
.4" == ~32 turns/layer

[attachment=810] [attachment=811] [attachment=812] [attachment=813][attachment=814] [attachment=815]

[attachment=819] [attachment=820] [attachment=821] [attachment=822] [attachment=823] [attachment=824]

[attachment=825] [attachment=826] [attachment=827] [attachment=828] [attachment=829] [attachment=830]

[attachment=831] [attachment=832] [attachment=833] [attachment=834] [attachment=835] [attachment=836]

[attachment=837] [attachment=838] [attachment=839] [attachment=840] [attachment=841]


The zipped attachment which includes the Sketchup and STL files can also be found here:

https://github.com/haxar/meyer-stanley/tree/329c62e61e8f32b1216dffc576d062a4fda5555a
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on February 3rd, 2012, 07:55 AM
Quote from haxar on February 3rd, 2012, 03:33 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on February 3rd, 2012, 01:35 AM
josh is working on the cores for the VIC's and we will have some to test thanks to Chris. he is working hard to get the things we need to make standards...

i know you don't know Chris or josh but you will soon.
Tonight, I just completed a test run of the VIC circuit with the transformer and cell and found the custom magnetite cores with their specific mixture with epoxy wasn't enough to hold any electromagnetic field, therefore revealing nothing being produced on the secondary side of the transformer.

I'll be trying better mixing ratios with the magnetite as it is trial and error and hopefully Josh's cores will come in.




Here's an update on the sketch to print and build the VIC transformer which now includes the core mold and an experimental coil hand winder. Changed the VIC bobbin to print in two separate pieces so that when printing them, bridging will not be an issue. See attachments.



Current replication progress:

  • 30 AWG Heavy (double coat) Polyurethane-Nylon with a diameter of 0.011"
  • Primary == ~611 turns @ 12.8 ohms
  • Feedback == ~627 turns @ 15.8 ohms
  • Secondary == ~2660 turns @ 72.1 ohms
  • Choke 1 == ~2830 turns @ 77.5 ohms
  • Choke 2 == ~2890 turns @ 78.5 ohms
~50 turns/ohm
1.3" == ~106 turns/layer
.4" == ~32 turns/layer

   

     

     

     

   


The zipped attachment which includes the Sketchup and STL files can also be found here:

https://github.com/haxar/meyer-stanley/tree/329c62e61e8f32b1216dffc576d062a4fda5555a
Nice work Haxar.:cool:  It's too bad the epoxy cores didn't work.  I like the coil winder idea!  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: KevinW_EnhancedLiving on February 3rd, 2012, 10:35 AM
Nice work guys!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on February 3rd, 2012, 02:13 PM
Wow awesome work being done here.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on February 4th, 2012, 12:54 AM
Quote from haxar on February 3rd, 2012, 03:33 AM
Here's an update on the sketch to print and build the VIC transformer which now includes the core mold and an experimental coil hand winder. Changed the VIC bobbin to print in two separate pieces so that when printing them, bridging will not be an issue. See attachments.
wow! that's some nice work!!!! sucks it don't work... but all in all that's grand! also, can you send me an email haxar? RWG42985@aol.com. thanks!

also im attaching a file of the basic VIC info all in one place...

this is really for reverse engineering...

enjoy.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: sampojo on February 9th, 2012, 10:29 PM
Hi everyone,

Looks like we are talking about strict electrical resonance of a circuit here.  Have been seeing people looking at acoustical resonance, multiple vibrational modes of water molecules, etc.  Good luck.  My plan is to by a 9XB card poss from globalkast, make a coil if I have to, but I want to just either use my current mileageshop cell or make an HHO twister cell, and just try to find some resonance.  Should be able to get whatever capacitance needed in any water fuel cell to get resonance eventually, don'cha think  I then want to hook it up to my vehicles and try to double my mileage.  Beating the ECU is a problem, may just try to find a '80 carbureted pickup truck if that don't work.

Seems hhoforvolts is making some fantastic progress, claiming 200-800% OU with just a Lawton circuit.  check him out on youtube.  He is even moving a star rodin coil into the circuit replacing the watercell, just going for a purely electrical gain.  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on February 11th, 2012, 01:24 AM
Haxar, do you haven an inductance meter? if so what is the measurements of your coils?


waiting... :)

thanks.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on February 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on February 18th, 2012, 06:19 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?

I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
Email firepinto he's a member in this same thread.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on February 21st, 2012, 12:17 AM
Quote from haxar on November 15th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Quote from Rwg42985 on November 15th, 2011, 05:20 PM
I have done extensive research and i have found out that stan may have been using 4 layer coating on the wire witch brings the measurements up to where there suppose to be...

this makes sense with the use that there may be high voltage in the wire. extra insulation...

thoughts?
 
~Russ
Yes, Stan may have used 30 AWG magnet wire with heavy double or quadruple insulation to make it approximately 29 AWG. The type of insulation in question could be found in the technical brief at the beginning of page 7-5 of memo 426:
Quote
both magnet wire sizes (622/623) uses solderable Nysol (Polyurethane Nylon Jacket) insulation enamel coating as a electrical shield-material ...
One supplier who carries magnet wire with Polyurethane-Nylon insulation could be found here:
http://www.planetengineers.com/default.asp?cat=Wire%2C+Magnet
30 AWG Heavy Poly Nylon (two coats):
http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=1458
30 AWG Quadruple Poly Nylon (four coats):
http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=2168

30 AWG with a heavy build would have a maximum diameter of 0.0121 inches according to this document:
http://www.nema.org/stds/complimentary-docs/upload/MW%201000-2008_errata%20final.pdf
here we have .0116" for # 30 wire...

http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=197(http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=197)

heavy build...

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on February 21st, 2012, 04:16 AM
please see my test data and photos here:

Haxar, feel free to publish your info in a new page on the spreed sheet???

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119&pid=3291#pid3291(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119&pid=3291#pid3291)

Thanks,
~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on February 23rd, 2012, 03:54 AM
Some info and VIC testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAhsO9JVI30

Enjoy, thanks.


i also wrapped a VIC coil with 32 AWG just because i have the wire... no measurements yet but the windings exactly dubbed... could have put more but it looks about right...

4200 turns, sec/chokes and 1200 turns on pri...

again i did this just for data collection. i now that's not the correct wire...


~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: DanB on February 23rd, 2012, 01:41 PM
Russ,
Nice video.

The 48khz seems to be the self resonance of the coils. Think of a pendulum, you can excite it with a singe push (ie a low frequency) and it oscillates and comes to a stop. If you time the pushings right the pendulum will continue to oscillate (ie matched input frequency with self resonance). In any case, the frequency is not dependant on the pushings (ie input frequency) it's depenant on the inductance and capacitance of the coil itself. The scope readout is correct.

Most scopes will let you take a differential measurement using both scope chanells together. See if you have a control to invert one of the scope channels and a mode to add the channels together. This will give you a single trace of the actual output waveform.

One thing to keep in mind that I have run into is the input capacitance of the test equipment. It can change the circuit and give resonances that are not real for the VIC circuit. Every time I try and make capacitance measurements of a cell I keep measureing the capacitance of my test equipment.

Dan
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HHO4Life on February 27th, 2012, 12:02 PM
Hey guys! I am in need of some bobbins! I am going to start working on the VIC may I purchase some from someone? Thanks Guys!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on February 27th, 2012, 11:35 PM
Quote from HHO4Life on February 27th, 2012, 12:02 PM
Hey guys! I am in need of some bobbins! I am going to start working on the VIC may I purchase some from someone? Thanks Guys!
send me an email,

RWG42985 thanks,

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: pakakezu on March 2nd, 2012, 01:58 AM
Hi Guys. I have some unclear thing about the resonance finder circuit.  
A phase lock loop circuit will set the feedback for the VCO(voltage controlled oscillator) to find the frequency where the two signals are in phase. When the phase shifts the frequency is adjusted again to get back the in phase condition. This needs some time.
But, Meyer did gated the output signal, this means, when the output signal is turned off by gating, the feedback signal disappears, automatically is caused an unlock condition, and the frequency is shifting away. But when the gating is on again, the system tries to lock in again.

So if the gating frequency is too high, we never get lock`d in. But, from the drawings we have only few impulses to lock in again. Or is something I missed, and while gating is off, the PLL don`t changes the VCO?

Other thing I want to warn you, is the Core saturation. When the core is saturated(magnetized whit to high current), the inductance is dropping down whit division to 1000`s of times. So if we have an LC resonance circuit this is ruining everything. I`m sure because of this was a built in power supply in each vic card.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 6th, 2012, 03:05 AM
Quote from pakakezu on March 2nd, 2012, 01:58 AM
Hi Guys. I have some unclear thing about the resonance finder circuit.  
A phase lock loop circuit will set the feedback for the VCO(voltage controlled oscillator) to find the frequency where the two signals are in phase. When the phase shifts the frequency is adjusted again to get back the in phase condition. This needs some time.
But, Meyer did gated the output signal, this means, when the output signal is turned off by gating, the feedback signal disappears, automatically is caused an unlock condition, and the frequency is shifting away. But when the gating is on again, the system tries to lock in again.

So if the gating frequency is too high, we never get lock`d in. But, from the drawings we have only few impulses to lock in again. Or is something I missed, and while gating is off, the PLL don`t changes the VCO?

Other thing I want to warn you, is the Core saturation. When the core is saturated(magnetized whit to high current), the inductance is dropping down whit division to 1000`s of times. So if we have an LC resonance circuit this is ruining everything. I`m sure because of this was a built in power supply in each vic card.
hummmm... well i hope to find out soon... weeks away but im trying... then we can know for sure... over here sharky may ba able to answer that. http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311)

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 6th, 2012, 04:53 AM
Quote from pakakezu on March 2nd, 2012, 01:58 AM
Hi Guys. I have some unclear thing about the resonance finder circuit.  
A phase lock loop circuit will set the feedback for the VCO(voltage controlled oscillator) to find the frequency where the two signals are in phase. When the phase shifts the frequency is adjusted again to get back the in phase condition. This needs some time.
But, Meyer did gated the output signal, this means, when the output signal is turned off by gating, the feedback signal disappears, automatically is caused an unlock condition, and the frequency is shifting away. But when the gating is on again, the system tries to lock in again.

So if the gating frequency is too high, we never get lock`d in. But, from the drawings we have only few impulses to lock in again. Or is something I missed, and while gating is off, the PLL don`t changes the VCO?

Other thing I want to warn you, is the Core saturation. When the core is saturated(magnetized whit to high current), the inductance is dropping down whit division to 1000`s of times. So if we have an LC resonance circuit this is ruining everything. I`m sure because of this was a built in power supply in each vic card.
Hi,

What I understand so far:
For the resonance wfc, resonance is always maintained by the PLL, because the pulse frequency is always there on the coils and core. Pulse voltages do not drop to 0V.
Gating is on top of the pulse signal, seen as higher amplitude.
If the pulse voltage drops some time to 0V(due gating) the chokes amp restriction function is gone.

If we lookup the circuit in the patent, the pulse is gated to 0V, but we need a better understanding what happens if this pulse should not go to 0V.
Reading SM text isn't easy, perhaps he wanted to give us a little hint in the Fig.16 found in the Dealership Sales Manual?
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=3448#pid3448

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 6th, 2012, 07:57 AM
Hi,

Looking at Fig "section AA" where pulse signals are shown.
Resonance maintained 54a no stepcharge, step charging effect 53n higher amplitude.
Tuning gating duty cycle is the "Resonance action" in the resonance wfc.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg22184.html#msg22184

Br,
Webmug


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: pakakezu on March 7th, 2012, 01:54 PM
Oh, this really make`s sense. The energized stage is kept, and the PLL loop remains closed. Now i need to clean the dust from my resonant scanning circuit and give it a new try.

I have one more idea. At the New Zealand House meeting video, Stan is asked about the use of contaminated water and what happens when is over concentrated and need to be changed. He sad it can be automatized, but after changing the water you need to re Ener... Pressurize the water. I felt like, he wanted to say energize, but then he reconsidered that and said pressurize. So we need to be patient to see the effect?
 But this question didn`t really matches in this topic. Sorry for that.


 
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waterfreak on March 7th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?

I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
The only ones I was able to find for sale are available here - look pretty impressive from the pictures, too:

http://stansdream.com/stan_meyer_vic_bobbin.htm
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 7th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Quote from waterfreak on March 7th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?

I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
The only ones I was able to find for sale are available here - look pretty impressive from the pictures, too:

http://stansdream.com/stan_meyer_vic_bobbin.htm
Man, that's hi-way robbery for a dollars worth of plastic and about three hours of print time, most likely got the stl from this forum.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 11th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Quote from waterfreak on March 7th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?

I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
The only ones I was able to find for sale are available here - look pretty impressive from the pictures, too:

http://stansdream.com/stan_meyer_vic_bobbin.htm
NOOO!!! lol

we are practically giving them out, just send me or Nate (firepinto) a message...

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 11th, 2012, 07:59 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 11th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Quote from waterfreak on March 7th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 18th, 2012, 06:07 PM
I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?

I noticed a few people here are printing the square bobbins and end caps for the VIC.

Is anyone selling any?
The only ones I was able to find for sale are available here - look pretty impressive from the pictures, too:

http://stansdream.com/stan_meyer_vic_bobbin.htm
NOOO!!! lol

we are practically giving them out, just send me or Nate (firepinto) a message...

~Russ
I probably have one more weekend printing new printer parts, I'll try to get more bobbins printed the weekend after.  If every thing goes well with the latest tweaks on my RAMPS box, I may get a set of bobbins done next weekend if I'm lucky. :)  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 12th, 2012, 01:06 AM
im verry excited to inform you all that Haxar was on it with his #30WAG wire!

looks like this may be it!

check out these measurements!!!

not only on the 100hz but 100,120,1k,10k settings they are very close!!! now just time for the core...

here are my measurements:

Code: [Select]
Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns 400 400 2955 3065 2870 560
wire resantce on air core (100hz) 8.455 @ .1757Q 11.576 @ .2244Q 102.59 @ .6518Q 111.64 @ .6804Q 98.16 @ .6335Q 10.419 @ .1084Q
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 8.566 @ .2108Q 11.821 @ .2692Q 116.04 @ .7821Q 127.17 @ .8163Q 110.52 @ .7601 10.473 @ .1300Q
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 33.51 @ 1.7565Q 66.44 @ 2.2407Q 3.117k @ 6.4870Q 3.591K @ 6.7700Q 2.8699K @ 6.3081Q 22.398 @ 1.0838Q
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 2.3996K @ 16.583Q 4.941k @ 19.926Q 237.14k @ 49.895Q 270.90k @ 51.770Q 222.99K @ 49.222Q 1.021k @ 10.667Q
inductance on air core (100hz) 2.2932mh @ .1758 3.935mh @ .2244Q 74.69mh @ .6518Q 82.63mh @ .6800Q 70.63mh @ .6335Q 1.7783mh @ 10.672Q
inductance on air core(120hz) 2.2929mh @ .2108Q 3.935mh @ .2692Q 74.68mh @ .7821Q 82.62mh @ .8160Q 70.62mh @ .7601Q 1.7766mh @ .1300Q
inductance on air core (1khz) 2.2935mh @ 1.7567Q 3.935mh @ 2.2401 74.69mh @ 6.4889Q 82.64mh @ 6.7660Q 70.63mh @ 6.3073Q 1.7766mh @ 1.0835Q
inductance on air core (10khz) 2.2952mh @ 16.586Q 3.939mh @ 19.940Q 75.90mh @ 49.871Q 84.21mh @ 51.435Q 71.73mh @ 49.495Q 1.7784mh @ 10.669Q
capacitance on air core(100hz) 33.08uf @ 5.6914Q 30.83uf @ 4.4580Q 10.11uf @ 1.5341Q 9.696uf @ 1.4700Q 10.27uf @ 1.5783Q 16.54uf @ 9.2271Q
capacitance on air core(120hz) 32.65uf @ 4.7426Q 30.18uf @ 3.7156Q 8.9393uf @ 1.2786Q 8.511uf @ 1.2252Q 9.122uf @ 1.3153Q 16.45uf @ 7.6921Q
capacitance on air core (1khz) 8.341uf @ .5692Q 5.366uf @ .4464Q 331.2nf @ .1541Q 299.9nf @ .1477 Q 349.8nf @ .1585Q 7.698uf @ .9231Q
capacitance on air core(10khz) 109.9nf @ .0603Q 64.13nf @ .0501Q 3.335nf @ .0202Q 3.006nf @ .0194Q 3.529nf @ .0202Q 141.2nf @ .0938Q
wire resantce on air core (fluke) 8.4 11.2 72.2 76.6 70.2 10.5


and the ones Don took from Stans VIC:

Code: [Select]
This set of readings is for each coil independent of all others on an air core (no ferrite)
Coil Feedback1 Feedback2 secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
Thick in 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155
R (Fluke) Ohms 11.5 11.1 72.4 76.7 70.1 10.5
R(BK) @100Hz Ohms 12 11.58 100.2 106.5 93.27 10.48
R(BK) @120Hz Ohms 12.14 11.74 110.4 119.7 103.5 10.53
R(BK) @ 1kHz Ohms 49.35 51.5 2.64k 3.15k 2.46k 21
R(BK) @ 10kHz Ohms 3.22k 3.42k 190.6k 1200k 1200k 946
L(BK) @100Hz H 3.47mH @ 0.188Q 3.43mH @ 0.192Q 68.7mH @ 0.594Q 76.32mH @ 0.626Q 64.34mH @ 0.577Q 1.65mH @ 0.099Q
L(BK) @120Hz H 3.3mH @ 0.214Q 3.34mH @ 0.225Q 68.6mH @ 0.713Q 76.28mH @ 0.751Q 64.3mH @ 0.693Q 1.65mH @ 0.119Q
L(BK) @ 1kHz H 3.3mH @ 1.8Q 3.36mH @ 1.89Q 68.6mH @ 5.98Q 76.28mH @ 6.27Q 64.26mH @ 5.79Q 1651uH @ 1.0Q
L(BK) @ 10kHz H 3.3mH @ 16Q 3.34mH @ 16.8Q 69.4mH @ 47.4Q 77.36mH @ 50.2Q 65.0mH @ 45.6Q 1651uH @ 9.39Q
C(BK) @100Hz F 23.7uF @ 5.61D 25.86uF @ 5.34D 9.73uF @ 1.66D 9.38uF @ 1.59D 9.89uF @ 1.72D 14.8uF @ 10.2D
C(BK) @120Hz F 23.3uF @ 4.67D 25.5uF @ 4.42D 8.72uF @ 1.39D 8.33uF @ 1.32D 8.91uF @ 1.43D 15.0uF @ 8.4D
C(BK) @ 1kHz F 5.75uF @ 0.552D 5.82uF 0.524D 351.5nF @ 0.164D 317.1nF @ 0.157D 374.6nF @ 0.17D 7.6uF @ 0.988D
C(BK) @ 10kHz F 83nF @ 0.061D 81.85nF @ 0.059D 3.95nF @ 0.021D 3.55nF @ 0.020D 4.22nF @ 0.022D 164.5nF @ 0.106D



god bless everyone for all the help! man!!! after almost a year of messing with this coil... we can finally say we have it! i was getting tired of it lol

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 12th, 2012, 06:28 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 12th, 2012, 01:06 AM
im verry excited to inform you all that Haxar was on it with his #30WAG wire!

looks like this may be it!

check out these measurements!!!

not only on the 100hz but 100,120,1k,10k settings they are very close!!! now just time for the core...

here are my measurements:

Code: [Select]
Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns 400 400 2955 2870 3065 560
wire resantce on air core (100hz) 8.455 @ .1757Q 11.576 @ .2244Q 102.59 @ .6518Q 111.64 @ .6804Q 98.16 @ .6335Q 10.419 @ .1084Q
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 8.566 @ .2108Q 11.821 @ .2692Q 116.04 @ .7821Q 127.17 @ .8163Q 110.52 @ .7601 10.473 @ .1300Q
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 33.51 @ 1.7565Q 66.44 @ 2.2407Q 3.117k @ 6.4870Q 3.591K @ 6.7700Q 2.8699K @ 6.3081Q 22.398 @ 1.0838Q
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 2.3996K @ 16.583Q 4.941k @ 19.926Q 237.14k @ 49.895Q 270.90k @ 51.770Q 222.99K @ 49.222Q 1.021k @ 10.667Q
inductance on air core (100hz) 2.2932mh @ .1758 3.935mh @ .2244Q 74.69mh @ .6518Q 82.63mh @ .6800Q 70.63mh @ .6335Q 1.7783mh @ 10.672Q
inductance on air core(120hz) 2.2929mh @ .2108Q 3.935mh @ .2692Q 74.68mh @ .7821Q 82.62mh @ .8160Q 70.62mh @ .7601Q 1.7766mh @ .1300Q
inductance on air core (1khz) 2.2935mh @ 1.7567Q 3.935mh @ 2.2401 74.69mh @ 6.4889Q 82.64mh @ 6.7660Q 70.63mh @ 6.3073Q 1.7766mh @ 1.0835Q
inductance on air core (10khz) 2.2952mh @ 16.586Q 3.939mh @ 19.940Q 75.90mh @ 49.871Q 84.21mh @ 51.435Q 71.73mh @ 49.495Q 1.7784mh @ 10.669Q
capacitance on air core(100hz) 33.08uf @ 5.6914Q 30.83uf @ 4.4580Q 10.11uf @ 1.5341Q 9.696uf @ 1.4700Q 10.27uf @ 1.5783Q 16.54uf @ 9.2271Q
capacitance on air core(120hz) 32.65uf @ 4.7426Q 30.18uf @ 3.7156Q 8.9393uf @ 1.2786Q 8.511uf @ 1.2252Q 9.122uf @ 1.3153Q 16.45uf @ 7.6921Q
capacitance on air core (1khz) 8.341uf @ .5692Q 5.366uf @ .4464Q 331.2nf @ .1541Q 299.9nf @ .1477 Q 349.8nf @ .1585Q 7.698uf @ .9231Q
capacitance on air core(10khz) 109.9nf @ .0603Q 64.13nf @ .0501Q 3.335nf @ .0202Q 3.006nf @ .0194Q 3.529nf @ .0202Q 141.2nf @ .0938Q
wire resantce on air core (fluke) 8.4 11.2 72.2 76.6 70.2 10.5


and the ones Don took from Stans VIC:

Code: [Select]
This set of readings is for each coil independent of all others on an air core (no ferrite)
Coil Feedback1 Feedback2 secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
Thick in 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155
R (Fluke) Ohms 11.5 11.1 72.4 76.7 70.1 10.5
R(BK) @100Hz Ohms 12 11.58 100.2 106.5 93.27 10.48
R(BK) @120Hz Ohms 12.14 11.74 110.4 119.7 103.5 10.53
R(BK) @ 1kHz Ohms 49.35 51.5 2.64k 3.15k 2.46k 21
R(BK) @ 10kHz Ohms 3.22k 3.42k 190.6k 1200k 1200k 946
L(BK) @100Hz H 3.47mH @ 0.188Q 3.43mH @ 0.192Q 68.7mH @ 0.594Q 76.32mH @ 0.626Q 64.34mH @ 0.577Q 1.65mH @ 0.099Q
L(BK) @120Hz H 3.3mH @ 0.214Q 3.34mH @ 0.225Q 68.6mH @ 0.713Q 76.28mH @ 0.751Q 64.3mH @ 0.693Q 1.65mH @ 0.119Q
L(BK) @ 1kHz H 3.3mH @ 1.8Q 3.36mH @ 1.89Q 68.6mH @ 5.98Q 76.28mH @ 6.27Q 64.26mH @ 5.79Q 1651uH @ 1.0Q
L(BK) @ 10kHz H 3.3mH @ 16Q 3.34mH @ 16.8Q 69.4mH @ 47.4Q 77.36mH @ 50.2Q 65.0mH @ 45.6Q 1651uH @ 9.39Q
C(BK) @100Hz F 23.7uF @ 5.61D 25.86uF @ 5.34D 9.73uF @ 1.66D 9.38uF @ 1.59D 9.89uF @ 1.72D 14.8uF @ 10.2D
C(BK) @120Hz F 23.3uF @ 4.67D 25.5uF @ 4.42D 8.72uF @ 1.39D 8.33uF @ 1.32D 8.91uF @ 1.43D 15.0uF @ 8.4D
C(BK) @ 1kHz F 5.75uF @ 0.552D 5.82uF 0.524D 351.5nF @ 0.164D 317.1nF @ 0.157D 374.6nF @ 0.17D 7.6uF @ 0.988D
C(BK) @ 10kHz F 83nF @ 0.061D 81.85nF @ 0.059D 3.95nF @ 0.021D 3.55nF @ 0.020D 4.22nF @ 0.022D 164.5nF @ 0.106D



god bless everyone for all the help! man!!! after almost a year of messing with this coil... we can finally say we have it! i was getting tired of it lol

~Russ
Very nice to read you have almost similar specs!

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 12th, 2012, 07:44 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 12th, 2012, 01:06 AM
im verry excited to inform you all that haxar was on it with his #30WAG wire!

looks like this may be it!

check out these measurements!!!

not only on the 100hz but 100,120,1k,10k settings they are very close!!! now just time for the core...

here are my measurements:

Code: [Select]
Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns 400 400 2955 2870 3065 560
wire resantce on air core (100hz) 8.455 @ .1757Q 11.576 @ .2244Q 102.59 @ .6518Q 111.64 @ .6804Q 98.16 @ .6335Q 10.419 @ .1084Q
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 8.566 @ .2108Q 11.821 @ .2692Q 116.04 @ .7821Q 127.17 @ .8163Q 110.52 @ .7601 10.473 @ .1300Q
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 33.51 @ 1.7565Q 66.44 @ 2.2407Q 3.117k @ 6.4870Q 3.591K @ 6.7700Q 2.8699K @ 6.3081Q 22.398 @ 1.0838Q
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 2.3996K @ 16.583Q 4.941k @ 19.926Q 237.14k @ 49.895Q 270.90k @ 51.770Q 222.99K @ 49.222Q 1.021k @ 10.667Q
inductance on air core (100hz) 2.2932mh @ .1758 3.935mh @ .2244Q 74.69mh @ .6518Q 82.63mh @ .6800Q 70.63mh @ .6335Q 1.7783mh @ 10.672Q
inductance on air core(120hz) 2.2929mh @ .2108Q 3.935mh @ .2692Q 74.68mh @ .7821Q 82.62mh @ .8160Q 70.62mh @ .7601Q 1.7766mh @ .1300Q
inductance on air core (1khz) 2.2935mh @ 1.7567Q 3.935mh @ 2.2401 74.69mh @ 6.4889Q 82.64mh @ 6.7660Q 70.63mh @ 6.3073Q 1.7766mh @ 1.0835Q
inductance on air core (10khz) 2.2952mh @ 16.586Q 3.939mh @ 19.940Q 75.90mh @ 49.871Q 84.21mh @ 51.435Q 71.73mh @ 49.495Q 1.7784mh @ 10.669Q
capacitance on air core(100hz) 33.08uf @ 5.6914Q 30.83uf @ 4.4580Q 10.11uf @ 1.5341Q 9.696uf @ 1.4700Q 10.27uf @ 1.5783Q 16.54uf @ 9.2271Q
capacitance on air core(120hz) 32.65uf @ 4.7426Q 30.18uf @ 3.7156Q 8.9393uf @ 1.2786Q 8.511uf @ 1.2252Q 9.122uf @ 1.3153Q 16.45uf @ 7.6921Q
capacitance on air core (1khz) 8.341uf @ .5692Q 5.366uf @ .4464Q 331.2nf @ .1541Q 299.9nf @ .1477 Q 349.8nf @ .1585Q 7.698uf @ .9231Q
capacitance on air core(10khz) 109.9nf @ .0603Q 64.13nf @ .0501Q 3.335nf @ .0202Q 3.006nf @ .0194Q 3.529nf @ .0202Q 141.2nf @ .0938Q
wire resantce on air core (fluke) 8.4 11.2 72.2 76.6 70.2 10.5

and the ones Don took from Stans VIC:

Code: [Select]
This set of readings is for each coil independent of all others on an air core (no ferrite)
Coil Feedback1 Feedback2 secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
Thick in 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155
R (Fluke) Ohms 11.5 11.1 72.4 76.7 70.1 10.5
R(BK) @100Hz Ohms 12 11.58 100.2 106.5 93.27 10.48
R(BK) @120Hz Ohms 12.14 11.74 110.4 119.7 103.5 10.53
R(BK) @ 1kHz Ohms 49.35 51.5 2.64k 3.15k 2.46k 21
R(BK) @ 10kHz Ohms 3.22k 3.42k 190.6k 1200k 1200k 946
L(BK) @100Hz H 3.47mH @ 0.188Q 3.43mH @ 0.192Q 68.7mH @ 0.594Q 76.32mH @ 0.626Q 64.34mH @ 0.577Q 1.65mH @ 0.099Q
L(BK) @120Hz H 3.3mH @ 0.214Q 3.34mH @ 0.225Q 68.6mH @ 0.713Q 76.28mH @ 0.751Q 64.3mH @ 0.693Q 1.65mH @ 0.119Q
L(BK) @ 1kHz H 3.3mH @ 1.8Q 3.36mH @ 1.89Q 68.6mH @ 5.98Q 76.28mH @ 6.27Q 64.26mH @ 5.79Q 1651uH @ 1.0Q
L(BK) @ 10kHz H 3.3mH @ 16Q 3.34mH @ 16.8Q 69.4mH @ 47.4Q 77.36mH @ 50.2Q 65.0mH @ 45.6Q 1651uH @ 9.39Q
C(BK) @100Hz F 23.7uF @ 5.61D 25.86uF @ 5.34D 9.73uF @ 1.66D 9.38uF @ 1.59D 9.89uF @ 1.72D 14.8uF @ 10.2D
C(BK) @120Hz F 23.3uF @ 4.67D 25.5uF @ 4.42D 8.72uF @ 1.39D 8.33uF @ 1.32D 8.91uF @ 1.43D 15.0uF @ 8.4D
C(BK) @ 1kHz F 5.75uF @ 0.552D 5.82uF 0.524D 351.5nF @ 0.164D 317.1nF @ 0.157D 374.6nF @ 0.17D 7.6uF @ 0.988D
C(BK) @ 10kHz F 83nF @ 0.061D 81.85nF @ 0.059D 3.95nF @ 0.021D 3.55nF @ 0.020D 4.22nF @ 0.022D 164.5nF @ 0.106D


god bless everyone for all the help! man!!! after almost a year of messing with this coil... we can finally say we have it! i was getting tired of it lol

~Russ
Very cool!  Now we need some of that elusive ferrite stuff!  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 14th, 2012, 09:48 PM
I have a large ferrite C core.

I need to get it cut, once I do I may have a few extra sets.

I don't think it's the right core material though...It's ferrite, 2000 permeability which is too high....Same material Tony Woodside has and he's getting resonance but no gas production.....Which seems to be a common theme.

If anyone has ferrite and does no know how to cut it you need a diamond blade and a lot of water!

Unfortunately I don't have a saw so I was thinking about taking it to a machine shop?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 14th, 2012, 10:01 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 14th, 2012, 09:48 PM
I have a large ferrite C core.

I need to get it cut, once I do I may have a few extra sets.

I don't think it's the right core material though...It's ferrite, 2000 permeability which is too high....Same material Tony Woodside has and he's getting resonance but no gas production.....Which seems to be a common theme.

If anyone has ferrite and does no know how to cut it you need a diamond blade and a lot of water!

Unfortunately I don't have a saw so I was thinking about taking it to a machine shop?
cool stuff, i asked my buddy, they can cut ferrite with a water jet... but that's just at the thickness and not down the side???

any how, best of luck cutting it!

also, you have the correct C core? or is it not the correct dimensions to fit on the normal VIC bobbins?  or you can cut it to make the correct dimensions?

i would be interested in trying it if you have more than one core... i will publish the data...

thanks!!! ~Russ

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 15th, 2012, 05:42 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 14th, 2012, 09:48 PM
I have a large ferrite C core.

I need to get it cut, once I do I may have a few extra sets.

I don't think it's the right core material though...It's ferrite, 2000 permeability which is too high....Same material Tony Woodside has and he's getting resonance but no gas production.....Which seems to be a common theme.

If anyone has ferrite and does no know how to cut it you need a diamond blade and a lot of water!

Unfortunately I don't have a saw so I was thinking about taking it to a machine shop?
You could take it to a rock shop, they should have a machine to cut the core, and be able to cut it in under 20 minutes.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 15th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Russ,
The core is too thick, too wide and too long.
I think there is enough in one core to make 4
or 5 vic core sets, give or take 1 or two sets as
I think the first few cuts will crack or break
the ferrite.

Jeff, thanks for the idea,, I will look into
it this weekend to see if the are any local rock
shops.

All of my research indicates that the isolation
transformer is a pulse transformer. What that
means is that the design is very critical.
If any one of many characteristics is
 incorrect the coil will output AC and no
gas will be produced. The core has the most
influence so my hopes for this core are not very high.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 16th, 2012, 02:58 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 15th, 2012, 12:41 PM
All of my research indicates that the isolation
transformer is a pulse transformer. What that
means is that the design is very critical.
yes, it is... i agree also.

impedance matching and everything needs to be dead on...

Thanks for the info. i hope josh (the guy doing all the calling) will com up with some info on price quotes for the core. then we can see what perm we need... guess and check... but that's the only way as of now...  

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 16th, 2012, 09:37 PM
I think the permeability we need is around 1000 or less. I've been looking at Ferrite 46 and some others. In this design Meyer aimed for a center frequency of 5khZ which he explains in the control and driver circuits patent (WO 92/07861).

I am getting ready to wind my bobbins, wondering if I should try winding them on my lathe or just go for the hand winding method....It's hard to get a good wind on a square bobbin....How did you guys wind yours?

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 16th, 2012, 11:23 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 16th, 2012, 09:37 PM
I think the permeability we need is around 1000 or less. I've been looking at Ferrite 46 and some others. In this design Meyer aimed for a center frequency of 5khZ which he explains in the control and driver circuits patent (WO 92/07861).

I am getting ready to wind my bobbins, wondering if I should try winding them on my lathe or just go for the hand winding method....It's hard to get a good wind on a square bobbin....How did you guys wind yours?
the scanning circuit seems to be scanning from 200hz to 5khz...

i used a drill, but want to go back in do it a bit nicer... it may effect the turn counts and that will change the inductance. but how much i don't know...

happy windings ! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 17th, 2012, 09:06 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 16th, 2012, 09:37 PM
I think the permeability we need is around 1000 or less. I've been looking at Ferrite 46 and some others. In this design Meyer aimed for a center frequency of 5khZ which he explains in the control and driver circuits patent (WO 92/07861).

I am getting ready to wind my bobbins, wondering if I should try winding them on my lathe or just go for the hand winding method....It's hard to get a good wind on a square bobbin....How did you guys wind yours?
Haxar designed a hand crank winder for the square bobbins.  I don't know if he tried printing it out though?  Would be sweet if we could strap a couple stepper motors on to it.  Then have an arduino wind them for us. :)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on March 18th, 2012, 01:27 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 12th, 2012, 01:06 AM
im verry excited to inform you all that Haxar was on it with his #30WAG wire!

looks like this may be it!

check out these measurements!!!

not only on the 100hz but 100,120,1k,10k settings they are very close!!! now just time for the core...

here are my measurements:

Code: [Select]
Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns 400 400 2955 2870 3065 560
wire resantce on air core (100hz) 8.455 @ .1757Q 11.576 @ .2244Q 102.59 @ .6518Q 111.64 @ .6804Q 98.16 @ .6335Q 10.419 @ .1084Q
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 8.566 @ .2108Q 11.821 @ .2692Q 116.04 @ .7821Q 127.17 @ .8163Q 110.52 @ .7601 10.473 @ .1300Q
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 33.51 @ 1.7565Q 66.44 @ 2.2407Q 3.117k @ 6.4870Q 3.591K @ 6.7700Q 2.8699K @ 6.3081Q 22.398 @ 1.0838Q
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 2.3996K @ 16.583Q 4.941k @ 19.926Q 237.14k @ 49.895Q 270.90k @ 51.770Q 222.99K @ 49.222Q 1.021k @ 10.667Q
inductance on air core (100hz) 2.2932mh @ .1758 3.935mh @ .2244Q 74.69mh @ .6518Q 82.63mh @ .6800Q 70.63mh @ .6335Q 1.7783mh @ 10.672Q
inductance on air core(120hz) 2.2929mh @ .2108Q 3.935mh @ .2692Q 74.68mh @ .7821Q 82.62mh @ .8160Q 70.62mh @ .7601Q 1.7766mh @ .1300Q
inductance on air core (1khz) 2.2935mh @ 1.7567Q 3.935mh @ 2.2401 74.69mh @ 6.4889Q 82.64mh @ 6.7660Q 70.63mh @ 6.3073Q 1.7766mh @ 1.0835Q
inductance on air core (10khz) 2.2952mh @ 16.586Q 3.939mh @ 19.940Q 75.90mh @ 49.871Q 84.21mh @ 51.435Q 71.73mh @ 49.495Q 1.7784mh @ 10.669Q
capacitance on air core(100hz) 33.08uf @ 5.6914Q 30.83uf @ 4.4580Q 10.11uf @ 1.5341Q 9.696uf @ 1.4700Q 10.27uf @ 1.5783Q 16.54uf @ 9.2271Q
capacitance on air core(120hz) 32.65uf @ 4.7426Q 30.18uf @ 3.7156Q 8.9393uf @ 1.2786Q 8.511uf @ 1.2252Q 9.122uf @ 1.3153Q 16.45uf @ 7.6921Q
capacitance on air core (1khz) 8.341uf @ .5692Q 5.366uf @ .4464Q 331.2nf @ .1541Q 299.9nf @ .1477 Q 349.8nf @ .1585Q 7.698uf @ .9231Q
capacitance on air core(10khz) 109.9nf @ .0603Q 64.13nf @ .0501Q 3.335nf @ .0202Q 3.006nf @ .0194Q 3.529nf @ .0202Q 141.2nf @ .0938Q
wire resantce on air core (fluke) 8.4 11.2 72.2 76.6 70.2 10.5

and the ones Don took from Stans VIC:

Code: [Select]
This set of readings is for each coil independent of all others on an air core (no ferrite)
Coil Feedback1 Feedback2 secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
Thick in 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155 0.0155
R (Fluke) Ohms 11.5 11.1 72.4 76.7 70.1 10.5
R(BK) @100Hz Ohms 12 11.58 100.2 106.5 93.27 10.48
R(BK) @120Hz Ohms 12.14 11.74 110.4 119.7 103.5 10.53
R(BK) @ 1kHz Ohms 49.35 51.5 2.64k 3.15k 2.46k 21
R(BK) @ 10kHz Ohms 3.22k 3.42k 190.6k 1200k 1200k 946
L(BK) @100Hz H 3.47mH @ 0.188Q 3.43mH @ 0.192Q 68.7mH @ 0.594Q 76.32mH @ 0.626Q 64.34mH @ 0.577Q 1.65mH @ 0.099Q
L(BK) @120Hz H 3.3mH @ 0.214Q 3.34mH @ 0.225Q 68.6mH @ 0.713Q 76.28mH @ 0.751Q 64.3mH @ 0.693Q 1.65mH @ 0.119Q
L(BK) @ 1kHz H 3.3mH @ 1.8Q 3.36mH @ 1.89Q 68.6mH @ 5.98Q 76.28mH @ 6.27Q 64.26mH @ 5.79Q 1651uH @ 1.0Q
L(BK) @ 10kHz H 3.3mH @ 16Q 3.34mH @ 16.8Q 69.4mH @ 47.4Q 77.36mH @ 50.2Q 65.0mH @ 45.6Q 1651uH @ 9.39Q
C(BK) @100Hz F 23.7uF @ 5.61D 25.86uF @ 5.34D 9.73uF @ 1.66D 9.38uF @ 1.59D 9.89uF @ 1.72D 14.8uF @ 10.2D
C(BK) @120Hz F 23.3uF @ 4.67D 25.5uF @ 4.42D 8.72uF @ 1.39D 8.33uF @ 1.32D 8.91uF @ 1.43D 15.0uF @ 8.4D
C(BK) @ 1kHz F 5.75uF @ 0.552D 5.82uF 0.524D 351.5nF @ 0.164D 317.1nF @ 0.157D 374.6nF @ 0.17D 7.6uF @ 0.988D
C(BK) @ 10kHz F 83nF @ 0.061D 81.85nF @ 0.059D 3.95nF @ 0.021D 3.55nF @ 0.020D 4.22nF @ 0.022D 164.5nF @ 0.106D


god bless everyone for all the help! man!!! after almost a year of messing with this coil... we can finally say we have it! i was getting tired of it lol

~Russ
Now here also google docs

LINK to online excel click the below link

Testing your Vic Style 1 RWG Yours & Stans's(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApBuQjYkKv8RdE8yTGphS2NkM3MzSFRCU1NyQl8yb1E)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on March 18th, 2012, 02:29 AM
Quote from haxar on November 16th, 2011, 06:17 PM
As for the electronics in Stan's original voltage intensifier circuit, I've done a trace of its card here:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3319/viccardtrace800px.png)(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4774/viccardtrace.png)

(click to enlarge or download the editable SVG image file zipped in the attachments)

I've drawn up the complete "functioning" schematic of the circuit as well:

(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1361/vicschem800px.png)(http://www.open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=495)

(click for a printable PDF of the schematic)

The zipped schematic file in the attachments may only be compatible with gschem of the gEDA electronic toolkit, so compatibility varies.
hi any chance of jpg or gif posting for these?

also invite you edit here

Stan Meyer Vic cicuit rebuilders guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SiPuaX_kvldohC_BSPG9Q8TLQQ1sa8AQby5PdsKd0kk/edit)

Daniel
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on March 18th, 2012, 03:00 AM
Guys,I dont know if you observed(i did by comparison)that the original vic board does NOT contain variable pulse gen and gated pulse gen.,like vic.sckem pdf shows(see attachment)it contains only voltage amplitude control/cell driver/pulse indicator/PLL/and scaning circuits...the variable pulse and gated pulse gen are on the GMS,hope that helps!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on March 18th, 2012, 11:44 AM
Quote from adys15 on March 18th, 2012, 03:00 AM
Guys,I dont know if you observed(i did by comparison)that the original vic board does NOT contain variable pulse gen and gated pulse gen.,like vic.sckem pdf shows(see attachment)it contains only voltage amplitude control/cell driver/pulse indicator/PLL/and scaning circuits...the variable pulse and gated pulse gen are on the GMS,hope that helps!
I also said this previously in this thread:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=2408#pid2408
Quote from haxar on January 9th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Quote from Sharky on January 9th, 2012, 02:08 PM
An other question about the Haxar schematic, ... the 74122 is not present on the VIC card, is it a replacement part or did you change the schematic after doing the trace of the vic card?
The Variable Pulse Frequency and the Gated Pulse Frequency sub-circuits are a part of the Gas Management System unit which connect to the VIC unit, not a part of the VIC card.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Especially after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 18th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Espically after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
You know, I have done some thinking on this. It occurs to me that some of Stan's devices could have been tampered with by persons wanting to mislead individual's like ourselves, don't know this for sure, but it could be a possibility, so more testing would be the key. Prove and disprove.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waterfreak on March 19th, 2012, 12:43 PM
This is a very strong possibility.
With a lot of Meyer's tech, what has actually been found in his items does not always match what the patents say.
Given the implications of his technology, it is not far fetched to think that 'higher powers' tampered with and even placed 'duds' there to mislead the masses.
Either the patents are right, the devices or right, or a combo of both.
Only time and testing will ultimately tell.
Their goal of killing the project has obviously backfired and now there will be no stopping it.
Keep pressing forward everyone!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on March 20th, 2012, 08:46 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 18th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Espically after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
You know, I have done some thinking on this. It occurs to me that some of Stan's devices could have been tampered with by persons wanting to mislead individual's like ourselves, don't know this for sure, but it could be a possibility, so more testing would be the key. Prove and disprove.
Check the patents

and keep  experimenting too many on this now

IDEA
Get a Basic kit together , just above cost,

1. bobbins
2. Wire
3 boards
4. parts
5 tape
6 include testing and target specs wanted

put all in the guides , circulate it even more !!!

get it out there.
for each of the guides , invite others, get iit out htere

Japs did this and it is now called TOYOTA!

than 10++ people can all start winding
and trying different ways with targets. invite unis and every one@@!!



this will kill the issues and over come blocks super fast
development power BABY!!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 20th, 2012, 11:06 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 16th, 2012, 09:37 PM
I think the permeability we need is around 1000 or less. I've been looking at Ferrite 46 and some others. In this design Meyer aimed for a center frequency of 5khZ which he explains in the control and driver circuits patent (WO 92/07861).

I am getting ready to wind my bobbins, wondering if I should try winding them on my lathe or just go for the hand winding method....It's hard to get a good wind on a square bobbin....How did you guys wind yours?
@all,

I would like your opinion about some core material.

Typical Properties:
Mn-Zn Ferrite
Initial Permeability 1200
Maximum Permeability 7500
Saturation Flux Density 5250 Gauss
Remanent Flux Density 2100 Gauss
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf
EDIT: http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Materials/Datasheets/MnZn/MN67%20ISO%20WEB%20DATA.pdf

Custom core can by made with the exact dimensions provided in Dynodon sketches.
The parts will be machined from an iso-pressed block of ferrite.

Minimum order would be 10 pcs.
We need 2 pcs for one VIC unit.

Br,
Webmug


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on March 20th, 2012, 11:17 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 18th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Espically after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
You know, I have done some thinking on this. It occurs to me that some of Stan's devices could have been tampered with by persons wanting to mislead individual's like ourselves, don't know this for sure, but it could be a possibility, so more testing would be the key. Prove and disprove.
I do not think meyer accidentally added so much turns, he was not the kind of man to do things accidentally. If it was intentional i can only think of it being a band pass filter, thatwould be the most logical reason for the coils being different. About tampering, ... Most info comes from Don, if he changed data to spread confusion we will find out soon enough, we are getting very close to having replicated almost everything by now. However i doubt that very much, what would he gain by that? Getting the WFC tech to market first? He would have done that by now then. Just my two cents ...
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 20th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Quote from Sharky on March 20th, 2012, 11:17 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 18th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Espically after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
You know, I have done some thinking on this. It occurs to me that some of Stan's devices could have been tampered with by persons wanting to mislead individual's like ourselves, don't know this for sure, but it could be a possibility, so more testing would be the key. Prove and disprove.
I do not think meyer accidentally added so much turns, he was not the kind of man to do things accidentally. If it was intentional i can only think of it being a band pass filter, thatwould be the most logical reason for the coils being different. About tampering, ... Most info comes from Don, if he changed data to spread confusion we will find out soon enough, we are getting very close to having replicated almost everything by now. However i doubt that very much, what would he gain by that? Getting the WFC tech to market first? He would have done that by now then. Just my two cents ...
I don't think Don would of tampered with anything.  I think during the time between 1998 and before Don got to see the estate it had plenty of chances to be tampered with.   Personally I think all the "good stuff" is still missing.  We just won't really ever know until we replicate it.  Its too bad the estate wasn't sold to someone who actually cared about getting us off oil power.  I'd love to see that buggy put back together in running condition!

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 20th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Quote from firepinto on March 20th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Quote from Sharky on March 20th, 2012, 11:17 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on March 18th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Espically after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
You know, I have done some thinking on this. It occurs to me that some of Stan's devices could have been tampered with by persons wanting to mislead individual's like ourselves, don't know this for sure, but it could be a possibility, so more testing would be the key. Prove and disprove.
I do not think meyer accidentally added so much turns, he was not the kind of man to do things accidentally. If it was intentional i can only think of it being a band pass filter, thatwould be the most logical reason for the coils being different. About tampering, ... Most info comes from Don, if he changed data to spread confusion we will find out soon enough, we are getting very close to having replicated almost everything by now. However i doubt that very much, what would he gain by that? Getting the WFC tech to market first? He would have done that by now then. Just my two cents ...
I don't think Don would of tampered with anything.  I think during the time between 1998 and before Don got to see the estate it had plenty of chances to be tampered with.   Personally I think all the "good stuff" is still missing.  We just won't really ever know until we replicate it.  Its too bad the estate wasn't sold to someone who actually cared about getting us off oil power.  I'd love to see that buggy put back together in running condition!

Nate
I agree with you Nate.  I was not talking about Don! We all just need to prove or disprove.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 20th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Don is not that kind of person....I have known him for a few years from the forums and had many conversations with him through PM.
He is an honest, good person who is more than willing to share and help others, without his efforts we would be years behind from where we are now.



Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Muxar on March 21st, 2012, 12:13 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 20th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Don is not that kind of person....I have known him for a few years from the forums and had many conversations with him through PM.
He is an honest, good person who is more than willing to share and help others, without his efforts we would be years behind from where we are now.
I also trust in Don but i think we must move carefully, the big guys could be watching us and maybe reporting wrong info about his results to mess all, like happened to Allen cagianno.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 21st, 2012, 03:16 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 20th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Don is not that kind of person....I have known him for a few years from the forums and had many conversations with him through PM.
He is an honest, good person who is more than willing to share and help others, without his efforts we would be years behind from where we are now.
I have talked with don in person about 3 times, some Evan about a year apart, I trust him and do not think he gives out false information. He gives what he knows... Wether its right or wrong, he still gives what he know and dose not mislead, thank god that don even was in the deal, or we would still have nothing to go by... Thanks don!!!

~Russ  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 21st, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Especially after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
Something for you all to think about. On the note of the inductors being different values. One very interesting thing that you should recall in almost all the drawings is that you See a variable inductor on the negative side. Why is it that Stan has a variable inductor in the drawings? Have you ever seen one of his devices with a variable inductor? The answer is no.

The reason for this in my opinion is that if you know how to engineer it to the correct specifications you do not need a variable  inductor. I truly think that he did this to show us people who are trying to replicate it that you need to tune that particular inductor. So basically it's a very simple diagram saying "hey dummy try this and see what happens"

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Keep up the good discussion. We will get there. It's all going to take time. God bless ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 21st, 2012, 04:01 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 21st, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Especially after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
Something for you all to think about. On the note of the inductors being different values. One very interesting thing that you should recall in almost all the drawings is that you See a variable inductor on the negative side. Why is it that Stan has a variable inductor in the drawings? Have you ever seen one of his devices with a variable inductor? The answer is no.

The reason for this in my opinion is that if you know how to engineer it to the correct specifications you do not need a variable  inductor. I truly think that he did this to show us people who are trying to replicate it that you need to tune that particular inductor. So basically it's a very simple diagram saying "hey dummy try this and see what happens"

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Keep up the good discussion. We will get there. It's all going to take time. God bless ~Russ
Hi,

If you read the tech brief p3-10 Memo WFC 422 DA about variable inductor coil, he makes it clear why it is tunable. Movable wiper arm fine tunes "resonant action" during pulsing operations. The relationship between them, electrically balances the opposite electrical potential across voltage zone.

Yes, it is not physical tunable with a dial, it has a tuned fixed relationship.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 21st, 2012, 04:41 AM
Quote from Webmug on March 21st, 2012, 04:01 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 21st, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Especially after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
Something for you all to think about. On the note of the inductors being different values. One very interesting thing that you should recall in almost all the drawings is that you See a variable inductor on the negative side. Why is it that Stan has a variable inductor in the drawings? Have you ever seen one of his devices with a variable inductor? The answer is no.

The reason for this in my opinion is that if you know how to engineer it to the correct specifications you do not need a variable  inductor. I truly think that he did this to show us people who are trying to replicate it that you need to tune that particular inductor. So basically it's a very simple diagram saying "hey dummy try this and see what happens"

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Keep up the good discussion. We will get there. It's all going to take time. God bless ~Russ
Hi,

If you read the tech brief p3-10 Memo WFC 422 DA about variable inductor coil, he makes it clear why it is tunable. Movable wiper arm fine tunes "resonant action" during pulsing operations. The relationship between them, electrically balances the opposite electrical potential across voltage zone.

Yes, it is not physical tunable with a dial, it has a tuned fixed relationship.

Br,
Webmug
I agree. That is corect. But again, just another thing to think about.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 21st, 2012, 05:21 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 21st, 2012, 04:41 AM
Quote from Webmug on March 21st, 2012, 04:01 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 21st, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 18th, 2012, 01:59 PM
What do you guys think about the chokes being different values?

When Don had the VIC's in his posession he said they were "hand wound and not precision at all"

The difference of the choke coils is about 767 inches. With a median circumference of about 4.18" this turns out to be a difference of around 180 turns. If someone was hand winding these coils and not paying attention I could see how this could happen....Especially after you have wound a few....

In all of Meyer's other designs he always states the chokes are bifilar wound in equal length.

However, in Meyer's early drawings he shows a variable choke on the negative side?

I wonder if there is a specific ratio between the two choke values or if they are supposed to be equal?
Something for you all to think about. On the note of the inductors being different values. One very interesting thing that you should recall in almost all the drawings is that you See a variable inductor on the negative side. Why is it that Stan has a variable inductor in the drawings? Have you ever seen one of his devices with a variable inductor? The answer is no.

The reason for this in my opinion is that if you know how to engineer it to the correct specifications you do not need a variable  inductor. I truly think that he did this to show us people who are trying to replicate it that you need to tune that particular inductor. So basically it's a very simple diagram saying "hey dummy try this and see what happens"

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Keep up the good discussion. We will get there. It's all going to take time. God bless ~Russ
Hi,

If you read the tech brief p3-10 Memo WFC 422 DA about variable inductor coil, he makes it clear why it is tunable. Movable wiper arm fine tunes "resonant action" during pulsing operations. The relationship between them, electrically balances the opposite electrical potential across voltage zone.

Yes, it is not physical tunable with a dial, it has a tuned fixed relationship.

Br,
Webmug
I agree. That is corect. But again, just another thing to think about.

~Russ
Thanks Russ and webmug, this helps greatly.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 21st, 2012, 05:58 PM
Can someone tell me how the feedback coil is supposed to be wound?

I know its center tapped, but are the two coils wound:
-together bifilar
-one on top of the other
-Or next to each other (each taking up half of the bobbin from the inside to the outside)

I'm guessing it's wound so that the center tap is directly between the + and - outputs so it's neutral, like most center tapped coils are.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 22nd, 2012, 11:43 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 21st, 2012, 05:58 PM
Can someone tell me how the feedback coil is supposed to be wound?

I know its center tapped, but are the two coils wound:
-together bifilar
-one on top of the other
-Or next to each other (each taking up half of the bobbin from the inside to the outside)

I'm guessing it's wound so that the center tap is directly between the + and - outputs so it's neutral, like most center tapped coils are.
Hi HMS,

Only one VIC pickup coil was connected according to scetches from Dynodon.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Muxar on March 25th, 2012, 03:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdZNzLmwIzE&context=C407a2c1ADvjVQa1PpcFOp7l-9d8bG1E-euYsWcHRRZZileT1cfDo=

A gap in the core?
what you guys think about that?

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
Quote from Muxar on March 25th, 2012, 03:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdZNzLmwIzE&context=C407a2c1ADvjVQa1PpcFOp7l-9d8bG1E-euYsWcHRRZZileT1cfDo=

A gap in the core?
what you guys think about that?
this is something i have been looking at for a while now. i know we can tune the measurements in with the air gap... me and Dave,josh,and Chris have been discussing this over the phone for about 2-3 months as we have been looking in to the cores.

i truly think there is no gap. i also have talked to don and he stated there was no gap when he took Stan's VIC apart. that photo they show in the video is after don took the VIC apart... so yeah, there is a gap... but look at all the other photos... there is a silicone glue over all the other holes. there would have been a plastic thing to hold the gap... don did not find plastic when took the VIC apart.

i also think that the measurements may be flawed... if don took the VIC apart then measured the coils there may have been a small gap... so it all may be wrong...

this is why we are thinking about 1200 perm. this should get us about in that spot with no gap.

here is some good info on why one would use a gap in this type of design :
http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green(http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green)
Quote
FLYBACK TRANSFORMER DESIGN
A standard practice for designing a flyback transformer is to evaluate the energy needs of the SMPS and, using information from the ferrite manufacturer, choose a ferrite platform that will accommodate these needs. Ferrite cores offer self-shielded shapes with bobbins that are easily wound, an alternative to powder iron toroids or E cores. When the inductance value is calculated by the power-supply designer and the maximum current is then known, the stored energy is calculated by:



In many SMPS applications, energy and power are significant, and large ferrite shapes with gaps machined into the magnetic path must be used. But in today’s world of portable, low-power devices, the energy requirements can be minimal and small ferrite shapes (i.e., EP7) are used for the flyback transformer design. In some instances, the requirements are so low, a gap is not needed for energy purposes.

For example, a 300-µH inductance value that must allow 100 mA of average current has an I2L power requirement of 3 × 10–5 joules. Using a ferrite manufacturer’s data on energy versus gap size, such as the tabulated data from a Ferroxcube graph in Table 1, an EP7 ferrite size with a gap of less than 0.1 mm is specified. This gap size is the lowest value listed, essentially a non-gapped value. Unless the ferrite mating surfaces are polished, this gap distance is the average physical distance due to uneven surfaces of non-gapped cores.

Specifying a ferrite core without a gap has its advantages in the design of many magnetic components. But the flyback SMPS power capability will suffer if an ungapped ferrite core is used. For non-flyback, non-inductor applications, one advantage of an ungapped magnetic path is that it allows a minimum number of turns of copper wire to achieve a specific value of inductance.

When a gap is introduced into the ferrite core’s magnetic path, the overall ferrite structure’s ability to produce a specific inductance using a minimum number of wire turns (also called the AL value) is changed significantly. If one machines a gap in the core, the needed turns will increase, and this would increase the winding resistance.

These two characteristics, machining a gap (more cost) and adding resistance (more losses), are typically unattractive to transformer manufacturers. So to the novice designer, eager to produce a low-cost, seemingly efficient flyback transformer, the use of an ungapped ferrite is at first appealing. However, the lowpower ferrite flyback transformer should in almost all applications be designed using a gapped ferrite shape.

FERRITE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS
Ungapped ferrites for low-power flyback transformers aren’t a good choice mainly because of the fluctuation in inductance over temperature. Figure 3 illustrates typical AL values (inductance producing capabilities per turn squared) of gapped and non-gapped ferrite cores over temperature, based on the data in Table 2. Notice the large variations in the ungapped ferrite as compared to the almost constant response of the gapped ferrite.

A flyback transformer, using an ungapped ferrite with an inductance value of 300 µH at room temperature, would have an inductance value of 170 µH at –40°C and 570 µH at 120°C. With a gap, the values of inductance are 285 µH at –40°C and 311 µH at 120°C. This is within a 10% tolerance over the extended temperature range with a gapped ferrite versus about a 200% variation with an ungapped ferrite.

IMPROVED SMPS POWER CAPABILITY
At high temperatures, the inductance of a non-gapped flyback transformer increases significantly. An increase in the inductance has the same effect as a drop in the input voltage, as seen in Equation 1. Much has been written about minimum input voltage for SMPS design, as it is a critical value. Minimum input voltage (or high flyback transformer inductance) and maximum output load increase the power demand on the SMPS.

These conditions cause the ON time (duty cycle) of the switching to increase, as the circuit works to feed more current and power to the load. Most SMPS designers use minimum input voltage, minimum output impedance (maximum load), desired efficiency, and maximum duty cycle time to calculate the inductance value of the flyback transformer. A transformer may be designed to meet this value at room temperature. But without a gap, trouble arises when the temperature increases.

The discontinuous mode flyback SMPS has a maximum duty cycle. Once that limit is reached, the SMPS cannot produce any further power from a constant input voltage. The ungapped flyback transformer will reach this limitation when subjected to high temperature, low input voltage, or increased power demand.

In discontinuous mode, all of the energy stored in the primary is allowed to disperse into the secondary before a new cycle starts. Figure 2 shows this “dead” time as a period where there is no current flow in either the primary or the secondary.

Continuous-mode design allows a new cycle to start while there is still energy in the transformer. Additional circuitry can be employed to create a flyback SMPS that will transition from discontinuous into continuous mode, but this adds cost. Figure 4 compares the gapped flyback transformer waveforms to the non-gapped flyback transformer at high temperatures. Both the gapped and non-gapped flyback transformers had the same primary inductance at room temperature.

The current waveform for the gapped flyback transformer reaches a higher peak value in less time, indicative of its lower inductance value and higher di/dt slope value. There is a dead time of zero current before the next cycle starts keeping it well within the discontinuous mode. The waveform for the ungapped flyback transformer does not reach the needed peak current, because at higher temperature its inductance has increased, lowering its di/dt slope value.

To remain in the discontinuous mode, the time ON has to be restricted so all the energy stored can be dissipated into the load (secondary). The ungapped flyback transformer SMPS is unable to provide the same amount of power as the gapped flyback transformer SMPS when temperature increases.

Remember that flyback transformers aren’t truly transformers, but coupled inductors that need stable inductance at high temperatures to deliver maximum power. Trying to save 10% to 20% of the cost of a gapped ferrite by leaving it ungapped can lead to poor power delivery performance at high temperatures, low input voltage, and high power demand. The ferrite flyback transformer needs to have a gap. When it comes to ferrite flyback transformer design, be sure to “mind the gap.”
its kinda up in the air...

they also make ferrite that will not saturate even at higher temps... That's one thing we are keeping in mined. the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.


Material:MN67, Permeability:1200, Application:High Flux Density, High Curie Temp.
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf

all in all I'm still going the "normal round core" to see if we can get there with this crazy core... i believe that the core and coils set is flat to fit in the card slot... so we can make it better/cheaper... and i hope to do that...

I'm thinking the gap is not suppose to be there. i also think it may be a good idea as we can tune the coils that way... but I'm not going for the gap...

those are my thoughts...

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 25th, 2012, 08:18 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
Quote from Muxar on March 25th, 2012, 03:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdZNzLmwIzE&context=C407a2c1ADvjVQa1PpcFOp7l-9d8bG1E-euYsWcHRRZZileT1cfDo=

A gap in the core?
what you guys think about that?
this is something i have been looking at for a while now. i know we can tune the measurements in with the air gap... me and Dave,josh,and Chris have been discussing this over the phone for about 2-3 months as we have been looking in to the cores.

i truly think there is no gap. i also have talked to don and he stated there was no gap when he took Stan's VIC apart. that photo they show in the video is after don took the VIC apart... so yeah, there is a gap... but look at all the other photos... there is a silicone glue over all the other holes. there would have been a plastic thing to hold the gap... don did not find plastic when took the VIC apart.

i also think that the measurements may be flawed... if don took the VIC apart then measured the coils there may have been a small gap... so it all may be wrong...

this is why we are thinking about 1200 perm. this should get us about in that spot with no gap.

here is some good info on why one would use a gap in this type of design :
http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green(http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green)
Quote
FLYBACK TRANSFORMER DESIGN
A standard practice for designing a flyback transformer is to evaluate the energy needs of the SMPS and, using information from the ferrite manufacturer, choose a ferrite platform that will accommodate these needs. Ferrite cores offer self-shielded shapes with bobbins that are easily wound, an alternative to powder iron toroids or E cores. When the inductance value is calculated by the power-supply designer and the maximum current is then known, the stored energy is calculated by:



In many SMPS applications, energy and power are significant, and large ferrite shapes with gaps machined into the magnetic path must be used. But in today’s world of portable, low-power devices, the energy requirements can be minimal and small ferrite shapes (i.e., EP7) are used for the flyback transformer design. In some instances, the requirements are so low, a gap is not needed for energy purposes.

For example, a 300-µH inductance value that must allow 100 mA of average current has an I2L power requirement of 3 × 10–5 joules. Using a ferrite manufacturer’s data on energy versus gap size, such as the tabulated data from a Ferroxcube graph in Table 1, an EP7 ferrite size with a gap of less than 0.1 mm is specified. This gap size is the lowest value listed, essentially a non-gapped value. Unless the ferrite mating surfaces are polished, this gap distance is the average physical distance due to uneven surfaces of non-gapped cores.

Specifying a ferrite core without a gap has its advantages in the design of many magnetic components. But the flyback SMPS power capability will suffer if an ungapped ferrite core is used. For non-flyback, non-inductor applications, one advantage of an ungapped magnetic path is that it allows a minimum number of turns of copper wire to achieve a specific value of inductance.

When a gap is introduced into the ferrite core’s magnetic path, the overall ferrite structure’s ability to produce a specific inductance using a minimum number of wire turns (also called the AL value) is changed significantly. If one machines a gap in the core, the needed turns will increase, and this would increase the winding resistance.

These two characteristics, machining a gap (more cost) and adding resistance (more losses), are typically unattractive to transformer manufacturers. So to the novice designer, eager to produce a low-cost, seemingly efficient flyback transformer, the use of an ungapped ferrite is at first appealing. However, the lowpower ferrite flyback transformer should in almost all applications be designed using a gapped ferrite shape.

FERRITE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS
Ungapped ferrites for low-power flyback transformers aren’t a good choice mainly because of the fluctuation in inductance over temperature. Figure 3 illustrates typical AL values (inductance producing capabilities per turn squared) of gapped and non-gapped ferrite cores over temperature, based on the data in Table 2. Notice the large variations in the ungapped ferrite as compared to the almost constant response of the gapped ferrite.

A flyback transformer, using an ungapped ferrite with an inductance value of 300 µH at room temperature, would have an inductance value of 170 µH at –40°C and 570 µH at 120°C. With a gap, the values of inductance are 285 µH at –40°C and 311 µH at 120°C. This is within a 10% tolerance over the extended temperature range with a gapped ferrite versus about a 200% variation with an ungapped ferrite.

IMPROVED SMPS POWER CAPABILITY
At high temperatures, the inductance of a non-gapped flyback transformer increases significantly. An increase in the inductance has the same effect as a drop in the input voltage, as seen in Equation 1. Much has been written about minimum input voltage for SMPS design, as it is a critical value. Minimum input voltage (or high flyback transformer inductance) and maximum output load increase the power demand on the SMPS.

These conditions cause the ON time (duty cycle) of the switching to increase, as the circuit works to feed more current and power to the load. Most SMPS designers use minimum input voltage, minimum output impedance (maximum load), desired efficiency, and maximum duty cycle time to calculate the inductance value of the flyback transformer. A transformer may be designed to meet this value at room temperature. But without a gap, trouble arises when the temperature increases.

The discontinuous mode flyback SMPS has a maximum duty cycle. Once that limit is reached, the SMPS cannot produce any further power from a constant input voltage. The ungapped flyback transformer will reach this limitation when subjected to high temperature, low input voltage, or increased power demand.

In discontinuous mode, all of the energy stored in the primary is allowed to disperse into the secondary before a new cycle starts. Figure 2 shows this “dead” time as a period where there is no current flow in either the primary or the secondary.

Continuous-mode design allows a new cycle to start while there is still energy in the transformer. Additional circuitry can be employed to create a flyback SMPS that will transition from discontinuous into continuous mode, but this adds cost. Figure 4 compares the gapped flyback transformer waveforms to the non-gapped flyback transformer at high temperatures. Both the gapped and non-gapped flyback transformers had the same primary inductance at room temperature.

The current waveform for the gapped flyback transformer reaches a higher peak value in less time, indicative of its lower inductance value and higher di/dt slope value. There is a dead time of zero current before the next cycle starts keeping it well within the discontinuous mode. The waveform for the ungapped flyback transformer does not reach the needed peak current, because at higher temperature its inductance has increased, lowering its di/dt slope value.

To remain in the discontinuous mode, the time ON has to be restricted so all the energy stored can be dissipated into the load (secondary). The ungapped flyback transformer SMPS is unable to provide the same amount of power as the gapped flyback transformer SMPS when temperature increases.

Remember that flyback transformers aren’t truly transformers, but coupled inductors that need stable inductance at high temperatures to deliver maximum power. Trying to save 10% to 20% of the cost of a gapped ferrite by leaving it ungapped can lead to poor power delivery performance at high temperatures, low input voltage, and high power demand. The ferrite flyback transformer needs to have a gap. When it comes to ferrite flyback transformer design, be sure to “mind the gap.”
its kinda up in the air...

they also make ferrite that will not saturate even at higher temps... That's one thing we are keeping in mined. the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.


Material:MN67, Permeability:1200, Application:High Flux Density, High Curie Temp.
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf

all in all I'm still going the "normal round core" to see if we can get there with this crazy core... i believe that the core and coils set is flat to fit in the card slot... so we can make it better/cheaper... and i hope to do that...

I'm thinking the gap is not suppose to be there. i also think it may be a good idea as we can tune the coils that way... but I'm not going for the gap...

those are my thoughts...

~Russ
Pen me in for 1 pair of 1200 perm.:cool:  If needed I could buy 2 pair, to get the order going.  :)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 25th, 2012, 08:19 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
Quote from Muxar on March 25th, 2012, 03:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdZNzLmwIzE&context=C407a2c1ADvjVQa1PpcFOp7l-9d8bG1E-euYsWcHRRZZileT1cfDo=

A gap in the core?
what you guys think about that?
this is something i have been looking at for a while now. i know we can tune the measurements in with the air gap... me and Dave,josh,and Chris have been discussing this over the phone for about 2-3 months as we have been looking in to the cores.

i truly think there is no gap. i also have talked to don and he stated there was no gap when he took Stan's VIC apart. that photo they show in the video is after don took the VIC apart... so yeah, there is a gap... but look at all the other photos... there is a silicone glue over all the other holes. there would have been a plastic thing to hold the gap... don did not find plastic when took the VIC apart.

i also think that the measurements may be flawed... if don took the VIC apart then measured the coils there may have been a small gap... so it all may be wrong...

this is why we are thinking about 1200 perm. this should get us about in that spot with no gap.

here is some good info on why one would use a gap in this type of design :
http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green(http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green)
Quote
FLYBACK TRANSFORMER DESIGN
A standard practice for designing a flyback transformer is to evaluate the energy needs of the SMPS and, using information from the ferrite manufacturer, choose a ferrite platform that will accommodate these needs. Ferrite cores offer self-shielded shapes with bobbins that are easily wound, an alternative to powder iron toroids or E cores. When the inductance value is calculated by the power-supply designer and the maximum current is then known, the stored energy is calculated by:



In many SMPS applications, energy and power are significant, and large ferrite shapes with gaps machined into the magnetic path must be used. But in today’s world of portable, low-power devices, the energy requirements can be minimal and small ferrite shapes (i.e., EP7) are used for the flyback transformer design. In some instances, the requirements are so low, a gap is not needed for energy purposes.

For example, a 300-µH inductance value that must allow 100 mA of average current has an I2L power requirement of 3 × 10–5 joules. Using a ferrite manufacturer’s data on energy versus gap size, such as the tabulated data from a Ferroxcube graph in Table 1, an EP7 ferrite size with a gap of less than 0.1 mm is specified. This gap size is the lowest value listed, essentially a non-gapped value. Unless the ferrite mating surfaces are polished, this gap distance is the average physical distance due to uneven surfaces of non-gapped cores.

Specifying a ferrite core without a gap has its advantages in the design of many magnetic components. But the flyback SMPS power capability will suffer if an ungapped ferrite core is used. For non-flyback, non-inductor applications, one advantage of an ungapped magnetic path is that it allows a minimum number of turns of copper wire to achieve a specific value of inductance.

When a gap is introduced into the ferrite core’s magnetic path, the overall ferrite structure’s ability to produce a specific inductance using a minimum number of wire turns (also called the AL value) is changed significantly. If one machines a gap in the core, the needed turns will increase, and this would increase the winding resistance.

These two characteristics, machining a gap (more cost) and adding resistance (more losses), are typically unattractive to transformer manufacturers. So to the novice designer, eager to produce a low-cost, seemingly efficient flyback transformer, the use of an ungapped ferrite is at first appealing. However, the lowpower ferrite flyback transformer should in almost all applications be designed using a gapped ferrite shape.

FERRITE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS
Ungapped ferrites for low-power flyback transformers aren’t a good choice mainly because of the fluctuation in inductance over temperature. Figure 3 illustrates typical AL values (inductance producing capabilities per turn squared) of gapped and non-gapped ferrite cores over temperature, based on the data in Table 2. Notice the large variations in the ungapped ferrite as compared to the almost constant response of the gapped ferrite.

A flyback transformer, using an ungapped ferrite with an inductance value of 300 µH at room temperature, would have an inductance value of 170 µH at –40°C and 570 µH at 120°C. With a gap, the values of inductance are 285 µH at –40°C and 311 µH at 120°C. This is within a 10% tolerance over the extended temperature range with a gapped ferrite versus about a 200% variation with an ungapped ferrite.

IMPROVED SMPS POWER CAPABILITY
At high temperatures, the inductance of a non-gapped flyback transformer increases significantly. An increase in the inductance has the same effect as a drop in the input voltage, as seen in Equation 1. Much has been written about minimum input voltage for SMPS design, as it is a critical value. Minimum input voltage (or high flyback transformer inductance) and maximum output load increase the power demand on the SMPS.

These conditions cause the ON time (duty cycle) of the switching to increase, as the circuit works to feed more current and power to the load. Most SMPS designers use minimum input voltage, minimum output impedance (maximum load), desired efficiency, and maximum duty cycle time to calculate the inductance value of the flyback transformer. A transformer may be designed to meet this value at room temperature. But without a gap, trouble arises when the temperature increases.

The discontinuous mode flyback SMPS has a maximum duty cycle. Once that limit is reached, the SMPS cannot produce any further power from a constant input voltage. The ungapped flyback transformer will reach this limitation when subjected to high temperature, low input voltage, or increased power demand.

In discontinuous mode, all of the energy stored in the primary is allowed to disperse into the secondary before a new cycle starts. Figure 2 shows this “dead” time as a period where there is no current flow in either the primary or the secondary.

Continuous-mode design allows a new cycle to start while there is still energy in the transformer. Additional circuitry can be employed to create a flyback SMPS that will transition from discontinuous into continuous mode, but this adds cost. Figure 4 compares the gapped flyback transformer waveforms to the non-gapped flyback transformer at high temperatures. Both the gapped and non-gapped flyback transformers had the same primary inductance at room temperature.

The current waveform for the gapped flyback transformer reaches a higher peak value in less time, indicative of its lower inductance value and higher di/dt slope value. There is a dead time of zero current before the next cycle starts keeping it well within the discontinuous mode. The waveform for the ungapped flyback transformer does not reach the needed peak current, because at higher temperature its inductance has increased, lowering its di/dt slope value.

To remain in the discontinuous mode, the time ON has to be restricted so all the energy stored can be dissipated into the load (secondary). The ungapped flyback transformer SMPS is unable to provide the same amount of power as the gapped flyback transformer SMPS when temperature increases.

Remember that flyback transformers aren’t truly transformers, but coupled inductors that need stable inductance at high temperatures to deliver maximum power. Trying to save 10% to 20% of the cost of a gapped ferrite by leaving it ungapped can lead to poor power delivery performance at high temperatures, low input voltage, and high power demand. The ferrite flyback transformer needs to have a gap. When it comes to ferrite flyback transformer design, be sure to “mind the gap.”
its kinda up in the air...

they also make ferrite that will not saturate even at higher temps... That's one thing we are keeping in mined. the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.


Material:MN67, Permeability:1200, Application:High Flux Density, High Curie Temp.
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf

all in all I'm still going the "normal round core" to see if we can get there with this crazy core... i believe that the core and coils set is flat to fit in the card slot... so we can make it better/cheaper... and i hope to do that...

I'm thinking the gap is not suppose to be there. i also think it may be a good idea as we can tune the coils that way... but I'm not going for the gap...

those are my thoughts...

~Russ
Pen me in for 1 pair of 1200 perm.:cool:  If needed I could do 2 pair, to get the order going.  :)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 25th, 2012, 08:20 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
Quote from Muxar on March 25th, 2012, 03:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdZNzLmwIzE&context=C407a2c1ADvjVQa1PpcFOp7l-9d8bG1E-euYsWcHRRZZileT1cfDo=

A gap in the core?
what you guys think about that?
the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.
Pen me in for 1 pair of 1200 perm.:cool:  If needed I could do 2 pair, to get the order going.  :)

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM
You could use a gap to get the right inductances, but by doing this you will introduce a parasitic component which will prevent the coil from outputting a unipolar pulse...So, it won't work.







Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 25th, 2012, 05:23 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM
You could use a gap to get the right inductances, but by doing this you will introduce a parasitic component which will prevent the coil from outputting a unipolar pulse...So, it won't work.
yeah, i think there is know gap. also, do you have any more data on your thoughts on this??? any reference data? also did you want to put in order in for one set? or no?

all,

i believe at this point all i need is one more person to make the order for the cores.  

if by chance we go over 5 sets it may be cheaper. but again. we don't know if this is the correct perm... but we need to start somewhere.

blessings!!!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 25th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 05:23 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM
You could use a gap to get the right inductances, but by doing this you will introduce a parasitic component which will prevent the coil from outputting a unipolar pulse...So, it won't work.
yeah, i think there is know gap. also, do you have any more data on your thoughts on this??? any reference data? also did you want to put in order in for one set? or no?

all,

i believe at this point all i need is one more person to make the order for the cores.  

if by chance we go over 5 sets it may be cheaper. but again. we don't know if this is the correct perm... but we need to start somewhere.

blessings!!!

~Russ
Russ put me in for one, Jeff.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Yes I will order one core, just PM me with your payment method and the total price.

As far as reference data here is a good place to start.
http://www.ferroxcube.com/news/gate%20drive%20trafo.pdf

 Also notice on the core selection they show N67, that's good news for us!

 The VIC is meant to produce a unipolar pulse across the cap. This is stated in nearly all of Stan's documents. Parasitic components such as leakage inductance and distributed capacitance can cause the coil to output AC.

This is one reason for the high resistance wire in the injector VIC.
The bifilar windings cause the coils to have a high distributed capacitance. To prevent the coils from producing AC they must be damped. This cannot be done by adding a resistor in series to the coils since the coils inductance and the coils capacitance form a parallel tank. So the resistance must be designed as a component of the wire. The damping factor is critical in this coil design. If not correct AC will result. There are actually quite a few components which can cause the coil to produce AC, but the two which contribute most are the leakage inductance and distributed capacitance.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 02:55 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Yes I will order one core, just PM me with your payment method and the total price.

As far as reference data here is a good place to start.
http://www.ferroxcube.com/news/gate%20drive%20trafo.pdf

 Also notice on the core selection they show N67, that's good news for us!

 The VIC is meant to produce a unipolar pulse across the cap. This is stated in nearly all of Stan's documents. Parasitic components such as leakage inductance and distributed capacitance can cause the coil to output AC.

This is one reason for the high resistance wire in the injector VIC.
The bifilar windings cause the coils to have a high distributed capacitance. To prevent the coils from producing AC they must be damped. This cannot be done by adding a resistor in series to the coils since the coils inductance and the coils capacitance form a parallel tank. So the resistance must be designed as a component of the wire. The damping factor is critical in this coil design. If not correct AC will result. There are actually quite a few components which can cause the coil to produce AC, but the two which contribute most are the leakage inductance and distributed capacitance.
Stanley Meyer: PATENT WO 92/07861 page 6

“In the invention, the water capacitor is subjected to a duty pulse which builds up in the resonant charging choke coil and then collapses. This occurrence permits a unipolar pulse to be applied to the fuel cell capacitor. When a resonant condition of the circuit is locked-in by the circuit, amp leakage is held to a minimum as the voltage which creates the dielectric field tends to infinity.

Turns are a design variable that controls the voltage of the unipolar pulses sent to the capacitor.

The pulse to the water capacitor is always unipolar.

The diode is an electronic switch that determines the generation and collapse of an electromagnetic field to permit the resonant charging choke(s) to double the applied frequency and also allows the pulse to be sent to the resonant cavity without discharging the ‘capacitor’ therein.”



Re-read above text again very carefully.



A few years back a ran a test of a choke coil.
First I didn't know what it meant "resonant charging choke coils", but now a do!

Gate tunes the charge rate of the choke coil and when pulse is OFF, the choke discharge itself into the WFC in the form of a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

Resonance is when the PLL generates a AC signal on the secondary coil.
Choke turns count controls the voltage amplitude Vmax of the unipolar pulses send to the WFC. But you have to tune on this with the gate signal (duty cycle).

The core magnetic pulsing field is very important, this couples all the coils!

You have to ask yourself a few questions:
Does a capacitor block DC or AC or both?
Does a choke block DC or AC or both?

A capacitor blocks DC.
A coil blocks AC?

Let me know what You think, how this signal from the choke looks like.
I have a scope shot to show You this if I have a few answers.

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
Hi,
Question, do you have 50% du from the cell driver circuit?
Also maintain this when frequency go up and down if the scanner is active? The PLL has 50% output,but if it runs through the cell driver it is not.

I have Tony's PCB, it still needs tuning with some components on the board. It doesn't have 50% du. But Tony did a great job.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 27th, 2012, 02:08 AM
Quote from Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
Hi,
Question, do you have 50% du from the cell driver circuit?
Also maintain this when frequency go up and down if the scanner is active? The PLL has 50% output,but if it runs through the cell driver it is not.

I have Tony's PCB, it still needs tuning with some components on the board. It doesn't have 50% du. But Tony did a great job.

Br,
Webmug
FYI, i was getting back what the circuit putting out. , including a 50% ( or what ever it was putting out) duty signal.

thanks, ~Russ
Quote
I have a scope shot to show You this if I have a few answers.
could please pose it.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 27th, 2012, 06:26 AM
Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
[/quote

Hi Sharky, I didn't know if you knew about this PCB manufacturer, here's a link,
http://midnightmaker.com/
really good prices, and if you order put me down for one, thanks.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 07:47 AM
Quote from Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 02:55 AM
Stanley Meyer: PATENT WO 92/07861 page 6

“In the invention, the water capacitor is subjected to a duty pulse which builds up in the resonant charging choke coil and then collapses. This occurrence permits a unipolar pulse to be applied to the fuel cell capacitor. When a resonant condition of the circuit is locked-in by the circuit, amp leakage is held to a minimum as the voltage which creates the dielectric field tends to infinity.

Turns are a design variable that controls the voltage of the unipolar pulses sent to the capacitor.

The pulse to the water capacitor is always unipolar.

The diode is an electronic switch that determines the generation and collapse of an electromagnetic field to permit the resonant charging choke(s) to double the applied frequency and also allows the pulse to be sent to the resonant cavity without discharging the ‘capacitor’ therein.”



Re-read above text again very carefully.



A few years back a ran a test of a choke coil.
First I didn't know what it meant "resonant charging choke coils", but now a do!

Gate tunes the charge rate of the choke coil and when pulse is OFF, the choke discharge itself into the WFC in the form of a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

Resonance is when the PLL generates a AC signal on the secondary coil.
Choke turns count controls the voltage amplitude Vmax of the unipolar pulses send to the WFC. But you have to tune on this with the gate signal (duty cycle).

The core magnetic pulsing field is very important, this couples all the coils!

You have to ask yourself a few questions:
Does a capacitor block DC or AC or both?
Does a choke block DC or AC or both?

A capacitor blocks DC.
A coil blocks AC?

Let me know what You think, how this signal from the choke looks like.
I have a scope shot to show You this if I have a few answers.
Ok, here are my scope shots.

:exclamation: Let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 27th, 2012, 08:09 PM
What do you guys recommend/use as far as oscilloscopes and HV probes are concerned?

I have been looking at the Parallax Propscope (USB scope) for about $200.
It has a spectrum analyzer which I think is important for what we are trying to do...I also want something with a digital LCR meter....

Either way I think I will be making my own HV probes with a 1,000 : 1 voltage divider just to be on the safe side.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 27th, 2012, 11:06 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 27th, 2012, 08:09 PM
What do you guys recommend/use as far as oscilloscopes and HV probes are concerned?

I have been looking at the Parallax Propscope (USB scope) for about $200.
It has a spectrum analyzer which I think is important for what we are trying to do...I also want something with a digital LCR meter....

Either way I think I will be making my own HV probes with a 1,000 : 1 voltage divider just to be on the safe side.
i and Alex petty just connect out scope leads over the wire or near the inductors and put the scope on the smaller ranges... no need to connect the scope directly to the circuit... works well...

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on March 27th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 07:47 AM
Ok, here are my scope shots.

:exclamation: Let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Ok, did you measure that between the choke and capacitor? That looks like a perfect scope shot! Step charging the capacitor at resonance and then the high voltage pulse when the signal is gated and the magnetic field collapses at the coil releasing all energy to the capacitor. If you can create the oposite on the other coil/side of capacitor then you should be there. With what setup did you generated this, what coils, capacitors, did you have a diode in?

Good work there ...
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 28th, 2012, 10:45 AM
Quote from Sharky on March 27th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 07:47 AM
Ok, here are my scope shots.

:exclamation: Let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Ok, did you measure that between the choke and capacitor? That looks like a perfect scope shot! Step charging the capacitor at resonance and then the high voltage pulse when the signal is gated and the magnetic field collapses at the coil releasing all energy to the capacitor. If you can create the oposite on the other coil/side of capacitor then you should be there. With what setup did you generated this, what coils, capacitors, did you have a diode in?

Good work there ...
Hi Sharky,

This is what I have, it is too much time in between when I did the test.
WFC or capacitor was not connected. Diode was there.
I remember when I connected the WFC the signal was gone.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it!  

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on March 29th, 2012, 02:16 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME AND HOW.
I should need a set as well. Will PM also.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on March 29th, 2012, 04:23 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it!  

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ
Count me in Russ.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on March 29th, 2012, 04:33 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it!  

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ
I'm in for one set. :cool:
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 04:33 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.
Count me in ;)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: chris on March 29th, 2012, 04:49 AM
Hey Russ,

Yeah I'll take one.  I can donate mine to you for testing.  Let me know where and when to send the cash.

Thanks
Chris
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Russ,

Did you measure the resistance of one 3 inch WFC with a type of water in it?
Just wondering...

Br,
Webmug


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Aurgus on March 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM
[attachment=1125]Filled up a bobbin with 29 gauge heavy build.
55.5 ohms.
Should get the 30 gauge heavy build tomorrow and try again.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Quote from Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Russ,

Did you measure the resistance of one 3 inch WFC with a type of water in it?
Just wondering...

Br,
Webmug
ummmm... looks like no.not with the new setup. i took Capacitance readings but not resistance. i will do that.

Thanks, ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 29th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Quote from Aurgus on March 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM
Filled up a bobbin with 29 gauge heavy build.
55.5 ohms.
Should get the 30 gauge heavy build tomorrow and try again.
been there done that! lol  ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Aurgus on March 30th, 2012, 01:36 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Quote from Aurgus on March 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM
Filled up a bobbin with 29 gauge heavy build.
55.5 ohms.
Should get the 30 gauge heavy build tomorrow and try again.
been there done that! lol  ~Russ
Yeah, first time I got to play with actual size bobbin. Can put 3000 turns of 29 on my round bobbins. I have to try everything out for myself. Way too much “speculation info” out there.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 30th, 2012, 03:09 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it!  

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ
I'm in also.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: TonyWoodside on March 30th, 2012, 04:57 PM
Russ put me down for a set also...I'll send my payment via PayPal.

Thanks,
Tony Woodside
Russ,
If you can send me an email with the total including shipping.
Thanks again,
Tony
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: gpssonar on March 31st, 2012, 04:43 AM
Put me down for a set also.

Thanks, Gpssonar
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on March 31st, 2012, 09:31 AM
I was already confirmed wasn't i? If not, ... i want a set as well :)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on March 31st, 2012, 09:59 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Quote from Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Russ,

Did you measure the resistance of one 3 inch WFC with a type of water in it?
Just wondering...

Br,
Webmug
ummmm... looks like no.not with the new setup. i took Capacitance readings but not resistance. i will do that.

Thanks, ~Russ
The reason why I ask.

Distiled water 1 µS/cm
Rain water 30-60 µS/cm
Sea water 42 mS/cm = 42.000 µS/cm
Drinking water 500-2.000 µS/cm

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on March 31st, 2012, 07:20 PM
ok, so here is the list of people that are ordering. and have paid/send funds.

haxar
Jeff Nading
firepinto
Webmug
chris
HMS-776
TonyWoodside
gpssonar
Sharky
Dave
Joshua

if your not on the list please inform me.

it looks like i will need to wait till the funds will transfer to my bank. Then i will place the order. so it may be 2-3 days... i was hoping for Monday to place the order but i need to wait till paypal transfers the funds... so it may be Wednesday... ill get it ordered asap!  

i will keep everyone informed on when they have them done and when i get them shipped here on this thread. they quoted me 4-5 weeks for lead time...

that's s chunk of change... hope for the best!

thanks guys! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on March 31st, 2012, 10:51 PM
I think we are on the right track with those cores, I only wish the wait time was not so long:(

Just started winding the coils today using my mini lathe. First layer on the primary came out to about 115 turns. I only wish I could set the auto feed right.

One thing I recommend to anyone winding these coils (after much frusteration) is to make a turns counter. I made one (see pic) using a pedometer from the dollar store and a miniature reed switch from ebay. Total cost = $4. The turns counter saves a great deal of time and hassle, and for $4 it's really a gimmie!

Hope everybody's building projects are going well, I feel like I'm behind....But then again with a few weeks for the cores I'm sure I'll catch up:)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 1st, 2012, 03:10 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 31st, 2012, 10:51 PM
I think we are on the right track with those cores, I only wish the wait time was not so long:(

Just started winding the coils today using my mini lathe. First layer on the primary came out to about 115 turns. I only wish I could set the auto feed right.

One thing I recommend to anyone winding these coils (after much frusteration) is to make a turns counter. I made one (see pic) using a pedometer from the dollar store and a miniature reed switch from ebay. Total cost = $4. The turns counter saves a great deal of time and hassle, and for $4 it's really a gimmie!

Hope everybody's building projects are going well, I feel like I'm behind....But then again with a few weeks for the cores I'm sure I'll catch up:)
real nice setup, i also used a calculator and a pedometer in this setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAH12a8-C1s

 but the main prob is it would not keep up. the refresh rate was too slow...

just keep that in mind! looks good! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 1st, 2012, 08:15 AM
Quote from Webmug on March 31st, 2012, 09:59 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Quote from Webmug on March 29th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Russ,

Did you measure the resistance of one 3 inch WFC with a type of water in it?
Just wondering...

Br,
Webmug
ummmm... looks like no.not with the new setup. i took Capacitance readings but not resistance. i will do that.

Thanks, ~Russ
The reason why I ask.

Distiled water 1 µS/cm
Rain water 30-60 µS/cm
Sea water 42 mS/cm = 42.000 µS/cm
Drinking water 500-2.000 µS/cm

Br,
Webmug
What I am telling is that a 'NORMAL' capacitor wouldn't have 'RESISTANCE' to form a critically damped RLC to create 'UNIPOLAR' charging pulses.

What type of water are you going for?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on April 1st, 2012, 10:20 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 1st, 2012, 03:10 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 31st, 2012, 10:51 PM
I think we are on the right track with those cores, I only wish the wait time was not so long:(

Just started winding the coils today using my mini lathe. First layer on the primary came out to about 115 turns. I only wish I could set the auto feed right.

One thing I recommend to anyone winding these coils (after much frusteration) is to make a turns counter. I made one (see pic) using a pedometer from the dollar store and a miniature reed switch from ebay. Total cost = $4. The turns counter saves a great deal of time and hassle, and for $4 it's really a gimmie!

Hope everybody's building projects are going well, I feel like I'm behind....But then again with a few weeks for the cores I'm sure I'll catch up:)
real nice setup, i also used a calculator and a pedometer in this setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAH12a8-C1s

 but the main prob is it would not keep up. the refresh rate was too slow...

just keep that in mind! looks good! ~Russ
So far mine has worked out well...But I also noticed if you go too fast it will not keep up. Winding these coils I could not go very fast as I want to make sure there are no overlaps or gaps between windings (that causes increased winding capacitance).

I must say your work on the EPG is very impressive...Hope to see you get it working one day:)

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 1st, 2012, 10:20 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 1st, 2012, 03:10 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 31st, 2012, 10:51 PM
I think we are on the right track with those cores, I only wish the wait time was not so long:(

Just started winding the coils today using my mini lathe. First layer on the primary came out to about 115 turns. I only wish I could set the auto feed right.

One thing I recommend to anyone winding these coils (after much frusteration) is to make a turns counter. I made one (see pic) using a pedometer from the dollar store and a miniature reed switch from ebay. Total cost = $4. The turns counter saves a great deal of time and hassle, and for $4 it's really a gimmie!

Hope everybody's building projects are going well, I feel like I'm behind....But then again with a few weeks for the cores I'm sure I'll catch up:)
real nice setup, i also used a calculator and a pedometer in this setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAH12a8-C1s

 but the main prob is it would not keep up. the refresh rate was too slow...

just keep that in mind! looks good! ~Russ
So far mine has worked out well...But I also noticed if you go too fast it will not keep up. Winding these coils I could not go very fast as I want to make sure there are no overlaps or gaps between windings (that causes increased winding capacitance).

I must say your work on the EPG is very impressive...Hope to see you get it working one day:)
Say guy's this could be adapted to wind coils with, just using the stepper motor, not the lathe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVkz9vNAEo&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on April 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Say guy's this could be adapted to wind coils with, just using the stepper motor, not the lathe.
I've thought some on that, would be cool to use a stepper to do the winding also.  Then turns can be calculated by steps in the arduino.  Could also use an optical wheel to calculate wire length.  Would have to go through the same calibration steps as a reprap.  Too bad I don't know much about arduino programming. lol

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:05 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Say guy's this could be adapted to wind coils with, just using the stepper motor, not the lathe.
I've thought some on that, would be cool to use a stepper to do the winding also.  Then turns can be calculated by steps in the arduino.  Could also use an optical wheel to calculate wire length.  Would have to go through the same calibration steps as a reprap.  Too bad I don't know much about arduino programming. lol

Nate
That would really be cool :cool: if someone could program that for us:D:P

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 2nd, 2012, 06:14 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:05 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Say guy's this could be adapted to wind coils with, just using the stepper motor, not the lathe.
I've thought some on that, would be cool to use a stepper to do the winding also.  Then turns can be calculated by steps in the arduino.  Could also use an optical wheel to calculate wire length.  Would have to go through the same calibration steps as a reprap.  Too bad I don't know much about arduino programming. lol

Nate
That would really be cool :cool: if someone could program that for us:D:P
Something like this would be awesome, but too expensive for me.

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/showthread.php?105-Pictures-of-final-production-Coil-Winding-machine

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?4-CNC-Coil-Winder

Also a coil tensioner, wire guide is very handy.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:29 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 2nd, 2012, 06:14 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:05 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Say guy's this could be adapted to wind coils with, just using the stepper motor, not the lathe.
I've thought some on that, would be cool to use a stepper to do the winding also.  Then turns can be calculated by steps in the arduino.  Could also use an optical wheel to calculate wire length.  Would have to go through the same calibration steps as a reprap.  Too bad I don't know much about arduino programming. lol

Nate
That would really be cool :cool: if someone could program that for us:D:P
Something like this would be awesome, but too expensive for me.

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/showthread.php?105-Pictures-of-final-production-Coil-Winding-machine

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?4-CNC-Coil-Winder

Also a coil tensioner, wire guide is very handy.

Br,
Webmug
Yes to pricey, but that just gave me another idea. If someone has an old style fishing reel, they could use the gearbox off of it to feed the wire from the left to the right and back again, drive it from the stepper while it is turning the spool to be wound, or you could print gears with an automatic reversing lever to do the same thing.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on April 2nd, 2012, 02:42 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:29 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 2nd, 2012, 06:14 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:05 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 1st, 2012, 07:04 PM
Say guy's this could be adapted to wind coils with, just using the stepper motor, not the lathe.
I've thought some on that, would be cool to use a stepper to do the winding also.  Then turns can be calculated by steps in the arduino.  Could also use an optical wheel to calculate wire length.  Would have to go through the same calibration steps as a reprap.  Too bad I don't know much about arduino programming. lol

Nate
That would really be cool :cool: if someone could program that for us:D:P
Something like this would be awesome, but too expensive for me.

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/showthread.php?105-Pictures-of-final-production-Coil-Winding-machine

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?4-CNC-Coil-Winder

Also a coil tensioner, wire guide is very handy.

Br,
Webmug
Yes to pricey, but that just gave me another idea. If someone has an old style fishing reel, they could use the gearbox off of it to feed the wire from the left to the right and back again, drive it from the stepper while it is turning the spool to be wound, or you could print gears with an automatic reversing lever to do the same thing.
I've seen that one working on Youtube.  Pretty awesome.  I think we could print one out with all the pieces parts to make it go.  If we build it ... they will come(programmers that is)..:P

I've had some of those fishing reels, they feed the line so that it crosses each layer a little bit so that the line doesn't get pulled down into the spool when a fish hits.  I think we are looking for a slight movement of the thickness of the wire per turn.  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 03:07 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 2nd, 2012, 02:42 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:29 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 2nd, 2012, 06:14 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:05 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM
I've thought some on that, would be cool to use a stepper to do the winding also.  Then turns can be calculated by steps in the arduino.  Could also use an optical wheel to calculate wire length.  Would have to go through the same calibration steps as a reprap.  Too bad I don't know much about arduino programming. lol

Nate
That would really be cool :cool: if someone could program that for us:D:P
Something like this would be awesome, but too expensive for me.

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/showthread.php?105-Pictures-of-final-production-Coil-Winding-machine

http://www.ukcnc.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?4-CNC-Coil-Winder

Also a coil tensioner, wire guide is very handy.

Br,
Webmug
Yes to pricey, but that just gave me another idea. If someone has an old style fishing reel, they could use the gearbox off of it to feed the wire from the left to the right and back again, drive it from the stepper while it is turning the spool to be wound, or you could print gears with an automatic reversing lever to do the same thing.
I've seen that one working on Youtube.  Pretty awesome.  I think we could print one out with all the pieces parts to make it go.  If we build it ... they will come(programmers that is)..:P

I've had some of those fishing reels, they feed the line so that it crosses each layer a little bit so that the line doesn't get pulled down into the spool when a fish hits.  I think we are looking for a slight movement of the thickness of the wire per turn.  

Nate
Exactly so Nate, it would really be cool if we didn't have to move the wire back and forth with our fingers, all automatic. Iv'e got some Arduino Mega's coming, I have an Uno, Or to get a propeller, like in the video, but it would really be nice to stay with the Arduino's.:D:cool::P

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on April 2nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Quote
Exactly so Nate, it would really be cool if we didn't have to move the wire back and forth with our fingers, all automatic. Iv'e got some Arduino Mega's coming, I have an Uno, Or to get a propeller, like in the video, but it would really be nice to stay with the Arduino's.:D:cool
I used a small plastic spacer which I clamped down in the mini lathe tool post for a wire guide....I can turn feed the wire by hand using the handcrank but it's impossible to get the thing to wind correctly (no spaces between turns). If I had a CNC I could do it, but it would still take some work to get it setup....
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 2nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Quote
Exactly so Nate, it would really be cool if we didn't have to move the wire back and forth with our fingers, all automatic. Iv'e got some Arduino Mega's coming, I have an Uno, Or to get a propeller, like in the video, but it would really be nice to stay with the Arduino's.:D:cool
I used a small plastic spacer which I clamped down in the mini lathe tool post for a wire guide....I can turn feed the wire by hand using the handcrank but it's impossible to get the thing to wind correctly (no spaces between turns). If I had a CNC I could do it, but it would still take some work to get it setup....
Ya, CNC would do it .:D But if we could use an $18.00 stepper motor, $15.00 driver and a $30.00 Arduino board programmed just for that function it would be worth it, because it would be very accurate and precise :cool::D:P .  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 07:07 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 2nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Quote
Exactly so Nate, it would really be cool if we didn't have to move the wire back and forth with our fingers, all automatic. Iv'e got some Arduino Mega's coming, I have an Uno, Or to get a propeller, like in the video, but it would really be nice to stay with the Arduino's.:D:cool
I used a small plastic spacer which I clamped down in the mini lathe tool post for a wire guide....I can turn feed the wire by hand using the handcrank but it's impossible to get the thing to wind correctly (no spaces between turns). If I had a CNC I could do it, but it would still take some work to get it setup....
Ya, CNC would do it .:D But if we could use an $18.00 stepper motor, $15.00 driver and a $30.00 Arduino board programmed just for that function it would be worth it, because it would be very accurate and precise :cool::D:P .
Winding my coils by hand and using a drill isn't accurate and precise!:s

Too bad this guy isn't finished or even got started building a automated coil winder.
http://reprap.org/wiki/CNC_winding

I'm thinking about using a RepRap Sanguinololu DIY-kit 1.3a as a controller.:cool:

Questions, how to build a inexpensive DIY automated coil winder:
- a coil wire tensioner and feeder;
- how can we clamp/fit the square bobbin to the Spindle C-Axis; brackets for the VIC bobbin?
- how to build a simple Z-axis linear motion rail;

Got any good ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on April 3rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 07:07 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 2nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Quote
Exactly so Nate, it would really be cool if we didn't have to move the wire back and forth with our fingers, all automatic. Iv'e got some Arduino Mega's coming, I have an Uno, Or to get a propeller, like in the video, but it would really be nice to stay with the Arduino's.:D:cool
I used a small plastic spacer which I clamped down in the mini lathe tool post for a wire guide....I can turn feed the wire by hand using the handcrank but it's impossible to get the thing to wind correctly (no spaces between turns). If I had a CNC I could do it, but it would still take some work to get it setup....
Ya, CNC would do it .:D But if we could use an $18.00 stepper motor, $15.00 driver and a $30.00 Arduino board programmed just for that function it would be worth it, because it would be very accurate and precise :cool::D:P .
Winding my coils by hand and using a drill isn't accurate and precise!:s

Too bad this guy isn't finished or even got started building a automated coil winder.
http://reprap.org/wiki/CNC_winding

I'm thinking about using a RepRap Sanguinololu DIY-kit 1.3a as a controller.:cool:

Questions, how to build a inexpensive DIY automated coil winder:
- a coil wire tensioner and feeder;
- how can we clamp/fit the square bobbin to the Spindle C-Axis; brackets for the VIC bobbin?
- how to build a simple Z-axis linear motion rail;

Got any good ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Haxar designed a bobbin hand winder that can be printed, maybe that could be adapted for a stepper motor.  I would design an opto to count revolutions, maybe use the scroll wheel out of a mouse to measure wire length.  The wire feeder stepper motor could be a smaller one, the winding stepper should probably be a nema17.  The wire feeder probably needs opto endstops to reverse at each end of the bobbin.  Just some ideas, I don't have much time to try and sketch something up for now.  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 10:27 AM
Ok, guys I give you all a clue how the VIC transformer operates, in my point of view.
I run it in a simulator, so it is still a simulation.:cool:

It is a PUMP, charging the CHOKES on a GATE duty cycle and frequency.
Major problem are the design parameters, what kind of cell is used (capacitance) and type of water (resistance).

We can have UNIPOLAR pulses with a resistance of 3kOhm for the 1100mH chokes
and using tap water (3kOhm/475nF/1100mH), theoretically speaking!

Top: charging choke with a diode in place.
Mid: charging choke without a diode in place.
Bottom: charging chokes with diode in place.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 3rd, 2012, 01:30 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 3rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 07:07 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 2nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Quote
Exactly so Nate, it would really be cool if we didn't have to move the wire back and forth with our fingers, all automatic. Iv'e got some Arduino Mega's coming, I have an Uno, Or to get a propeller, like in the video, but it would really be nice to stay with the Arduino's.:D:cool
I used a small plastic spacer which I clamped down in the mini lathe tool post for a wire guide....I can turn feed the wire by hand using the handcrank but it's impossible to get the thing to wind correctly (no spaces between turns). If I had a CNC I could do it, but it would still take some work to get it setup....
Ya, CNC would do it .:D But if we could use an $18.00 stepper motor, $15.00 driver and a $30.00 Arduino board programmed just for that function it would be worth it, because it would be very accurate and precise :cool::D:P .
Winding my coils by hand and using a drill isn't accurate and precise!:s

Too bad this guy isn't finished or even got started building a automated coil winder.
http://reprap.org/wiki/CNC_winding

I'm thinking about using a RepRap Sanguinololu DIY-kit 1.3a as a controller.:cool:

Questions, how to build a inexpensive DIY automated coil winder:
- a coil wire tensioner and feeder;
- how can we clamp/fit the square bobbin to the Spindle C-Axis; brackets for the VIC bobbin?
- how to build a simple Z-axis linear motion rail;

Got any good ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Haxar designed a bobbin hand winder that can be printed, maybe that could be adapted for a stepper motor.  I would design an opto to count revolutions, maybe use the scroll wheel out of a mouse to measure wire length.  The wire feeder stepper motor could be a smaller one, the winding stepper should probably be a nema17.  The wire feeder probably needs opto endstops to reverse at each end of the bobbin.  Just some ideas, I don't have much time to try and sketch something up for now.  

Nate
Here is an encoder a lathe chuck and other parts on Thingiverse, all printable.
  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12747
Adjustable endstops
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:16380
5-1 reducer
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8460
self centering 4 jaw chuck
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5791
3 jaw
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12472
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:72
This should be enough to get it going:D:P

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on April 3rd, 2012, 01:42 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 3rd, 2012, 01:30 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 3rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 07:07 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 2nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
I used a small plastic spacer which I clamped down in the mini lathe tool post for a wire guide....I can turn feed the wire by hand using the handcrank but it's impossible to get the thing to wind correctly (no spaces between turns). If I had a CNC I could do it, but it would still take some work to get it setup....
Ya, CNC would do it .:D But if we could use an $18.00 stepper motor, $15.00 driver and a $30.00 Arduino board programmed just for that function it would be worth it, because it would be very accurate and precise :cool::D:P .
Winding my coils by hand and using a drill isn't accurate and precise!:s

Too bad this guy isn't finished or even got started building a automated coil winder.
http://reprap.org/wiki/CNC_winding

I'm thinking about using a RepRap Sanguinololu DIY-kit 1.3a as a controller.:cool:

Questions, how to build a inexpensive DIY automated coil winder:
- a coil wire tensioner and feeder;
- how can we clamp/fit the square bobbin to the Spindle C-Axis; brackets for the VIC bobbin?
- how to build a simple Z-axis linear motion rail;

Got any good ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Haxar designed a bobbin hand winder that can be printed, maybe that could be adapted for a stepper motor.  I would design an opto to count revolutions, maybe use the scroll wheel out of a mouse to measure wire length.  The wire feeder stepper motor could be a smaller one, the winding stepper should probably be a nema17.  The wire feeder probably needs opto endstops to reverse at each end of the bobbin.  Just some ideas, I don't have much time to try and sketch something up for now.  

Nate
Here is an encoder a lathe chuck and other parts on Thingiverse, all printable.
  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12747
Adjustable endstops
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:16380
5-1 reducer
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8460
self centering 4 jaw chuck
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5791
3 jaw
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12472
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:72
This should be enough to get it going:D:P
Nice finds Jeff,
I like the planetary gears.  I may try making one of those. Though I think gear noise it's self is going to make me move to belts. lol  

I think the last link is just a cover for a lathe chuck.  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 3rd, 2012, 01:48 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 3rd, 2012, 01:42 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 3rd, 2012, 01:30 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 3rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 07:07 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
Ya, CNC would do it .:D But if we could use an $18.00 stepper motor, $15.00 driver and a $30.00 Arduino board programmed just for that function it would be worth it, because it would be very accurate and precise :cool::D:P .
Winding my coils by hand and using a drill isn't accurate and precise!:s

Too bad this guy isn't finished or even got started building a automated coil winder.
http://reprap.org/wiki/CNC_winding

I'm thinking about using a RepRap Sanguinololu DIY-kit 1.3a as a controller.:cool:

Questions, how to build a inexpensive DIY automated coil winder:
- a coil wire tensioner and feeder;
- how can we clamp/fit the square bobbin to the Spindle C-Axis; brackets for the VIC bobbin?
- how to build a simple Z-axis linear motion rail;

Got any good ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Haxar designed a bobbin hand winder that can be printed, maybe that could be adapted for a stepper motor.  I would design an opto to count revolutions, maybe use the scroll wheel out of a mouse to measure wire length.  The wire feeder stepper motor could be a smaller one, the winding stepper should probably be a nema17.  The wire feeder probably needs opto endstops to reverse at each end of the bobbin.  Just some ideas, I don't have much time to try and sketch something up for now.  

Nate
Here is an encoder a lathe chuck and other parts on Thingiverse, all printable.
  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12747
Adjustable endstops
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:16380
5-1 reducer
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:8460
self centering 4 jaw chuck
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5791
3 jaw
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12472
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:72
This should be enough to get it going:D:P
Nice finds Jeff,
I like the planetary gears.  I may try making one of those. Though I think gear noise it's self is going to make me move to belts. lol  

I think the last link is just a cover for a lathe chuck.
Thanks Nate, your right, it is a cover, I did not look at it well enough.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Jeff,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3794#pid3794

And some info from tony:
Quote
With my 2000 perm ferrite cores in place, the measurements are as followed:
Primary: 100mH (approx. 450 turns)
Feedback: 74.3mH (approx. 450 turns)
Secondary: 3.19H (3000 turns)
L1: 2.98H (approx. 2800-2900 turns)
L2: 2.53H (approx. 2600-2700 turns)

So as you can see from measurements with my cores, 2000 perm is way too high. By gaping the cores you introduce many problems. Here are the pro's and con's of a gaped core:

The advantages of an air gap can be summarized:
* Higher values of mmf can be tolerated before saturation takes place
* Reduced core losses (higher 'Q' factor).
* The flux is less sensitive to changes in current and temperature.
* Cores can be obtained in adjustable versions.

The disadvantages of the air gap are:
* More turns are required to obtain a given inductance.
* Increased losses in the windings (lower 'Q' factor).
* Increased leakage inductance.
* Increased radiated field.
* Increased susceptibility to external fields.

As you can see by having a gaped core it increases lower Q factors for the windings, increases leakage of inductance, and increases interference from external fields (unwanted noise). From calculations that I have done, it looks like the core should be somewhere between 800 - 1200 perm.
So. We don't know till we try. I don't think there is a gap. After talking to don. And also, no I did not watch that video. But I watched the one before it...

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just looking at all the data.
Thoughts?

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 3rd, 2012, 03:18 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Jeff,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3794#pid3794

And some info from tony:
Quote
With my 2000 perm ferrite cores in place, the measurements are as followed:
Primary: 100mH (approx. 450 turns)
Feedback: 74.3mH (approx. 450 turns)
Secondary: 3.19H (3000 turns)
L1: 2.98H (approx. 2800-2900 turns)
L2: 2.53H (approx. 2600-2700 turns)

So as you can see from measurements with my cores, 2000 perm is way too high. By gaping the cores you introduce many problems. Here are the pro's and con's of a gaped core:

The advantages of an air gap can be summarized:
* Higher values of mmf can be tolerated before saturation takes place
* Reduced core losses (higher 'Q' factor).
* The flux is less sensitive to changes in current and temperature.
* Cores can be obtained in adjustable versions.

The disadvantages of the air gap are:
* More turns are required to obtain a given inductance.
* Increased losses in the windings (lower 'Q' factor).
* Increased leakage inductance.
* Increased radiated field.
* Increased susceptibility to external fields.

As you can see by having a gaped core it increases lower Q factors for the windings, increases leakage of inductance, and increases interference from external fields (unwanted noise). From calculations that I have done, it looks like the core should be somewhere between 800 - 1200 perm.
So. We don't know till we try. I don't think there is a gap. After talking to don. And also, no I did not watch that video. But I watched the one before it...

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just looking at all the data.
Thoughts?

~Russ
Thanks Russ,:D I had seen the info you posted and knew you had talked with Don.  I do think you are right and didn't mean to throw a curve ball into the works. It's probably a good thing you did not watch the video, the guy is really annoying. In another video he put up on youtube, their's one other person with him, those two remind me of Bevus and, well I wont say it, enough said, sorry, Jeff.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 3rd, 2012, 05:38 PM
Quote
Thanks Russ,:D I had seen the info you posted and knew you had talked with Don.  I do think you are right and didn't mean to throw a curve ball into the works. It's probably a good thing you did not watch the video, the guy is really annoying. In another video he put up on youtube, their's one other person with him, those two remind me of Bevus and, well I wont say it, enough said, sorry, Jeff.
Jeff. Im not an expert, everyone should do there own research and make te choice. Second guess me every day! It's a good thing and I'm never offended by it. Its good to be in a group that can freely descuss theses things and not be offended. That's Science!!! Sweet! Always post your thoughts and discusses it. That is what these forums are for! Open descussing!

This is not the place to descuss this... So I'll leave it at this. I tried to work with max, sadly he did not want much to do with me. So I continue doing what I have been for the last year or more. Pressing on with the work at hand. As I stated in this video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOu_dTjD3bY

I wish them the best! But I no longer are paying anttion to them at this time as it is a destraction. If some one finds somthing of value from his videos please do post it. But I have found it not to be of any help thus far. ( basicaly I haven't learned anything from his videos) nuff said.

God bless us all and let us make this hapen! Open sorce and free to share!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 05:55 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Jeff,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3794#pid3794

And some info from tony:
Quote
With my 2000 perm ferrite cores in place, the measurements are as followed:
Primary: 100mH (approx. 450 turns)
Feedback: 74.3mH (approx. 450 turns)
Secondary: 3.19H (3000 turns)
L1: 2.98H (approx. 2800-2900 turns)
L2: 2.53H (approx. 2600-2700 turns)

So as you can see from measurements with my cores, 2000 perm is way too high. By gaping the cores you introduce many problems. Here are the pro's and con's of a gaped core:

The advantages of an air gap can be summarized:
* Higher values of mmf can be tolerated before saturation takes place
* Reduced core losses (higher 'Q' factor).
* The flux is less sensitive to changes in current and temperature.
* Cores can be obtained in adjustable versions.

The disadvantages of the air gap are:
* More turns are required to obtain a given inductance.
* Increased losses in the windings (lower 'Q' factor).
* Increased leakage inductance.
* Increased radiated field.
* Increased susceptibility to external fields.

As you can see by having a gaped core it increases lower Q factors for the windings, increases leakage of inductance, and increases interference from external fields (unwanted noise). From calculations that I have done, it looks like the core should be somewhere between 800 - 1200 perm.
So. We don't know till we try. I don't think there is a gap. After talking to don. And also, no I did not watch that video. But I watched the one before it...

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just looking at all the data.
Thoughts?

~Russ
First off, this guy has NO CLUE what he's talking about. And second, he's trying to profit off of it.

When you introduce a gap in the VIC core your not just changing the inductance of the coils, you are introducing leakage inductance to the circuit and reducing the coupling between the coils. The leakage inductance is not desired in the VIC circuit as it causes pulse distortion and can also cause the coils to output AC.

The only reasons why a unipolar type coil would need a gapped core are if the coil has large changes in flux density or the core area is very large. In the case of the VIC, neither one of the above apply.

Now back to that video. Those 2000 permeability cores are not the right core and they WILL NOT WORK. You can get a large core of the same material and permeability (exact same core they are selling) that can be cut (and it will make 5 VIC's) for $15 from surplussales.com. Just keep in mind that it's not the right core and the only way you could make it work is if you completly re-designed the coil.

Tony is dead on about the core material and the gap, but he didn't mention the damping factor of the coil which is very important. It is also the reason why those 2000 permeability cores will not work, and why the high resistance SS wire is used on the injector VIC coil. The coils natural response to any pulsed voltage is to output AC. In order to cutoff the AC the coil must be critically damped. If the inductance or resistance is not in the correct proportions the coil once again output AC. If the leakage inductance is too high the coil will not work, if the capaciance is too high in relation to resistance the coil will output AC. There are many factors to be considered in coil design, unfortunately the guy(s) in those videos have no clue what they even are, but they are happy to sell you a core at a 3300% markup.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 3rd, 2012, 06:24 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 05:55 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Jeff,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3794#pid3794

And some info from tony:
Quote
With my 2000 perm ferrite cores in place, the measurements are as followed:
Primary: 100mH (approx. 450 turns)
Feedback: 74.3mH (approx. 450 turns)
Secondary: 3.19H (3000 turns)
L1: 2.98H (approx. 2800-2900 turns)
L2: 2.53H (approx. 2600-2700 turns)

So as you can see from measurements with my cores, 2000 perm is way too high. By gaping the cores you introduce many problems. Here are the pro's and con's of a gaped core:

The advantages of an air gap can be summarized:
* Higher values of mmf can be tolerated before saturation takes place
* Reduced core losses (higher 'Q' factor).
* The flux is less sensitive to changes in current and temperature.
* Cores can be obtained in adjustable versions.

The disadvantages of the air gap are:
* More turns are required to obtain a given inductance.
* Increased losses in the windings (lower 'Q' factor).
* Increased leakage inductance.
* Increased radiated field.
* Increased susceptibility to external fields.

As you can see by having a gaped core it increases lower Q factors for the windings, increases leakage of inductance, and increases interference from external fields (unwanted noise). From calculations that I have done, it looks like the core should be somewhere between 800 - 1200 perm.
So. We don't know till we try. I don't think there is a gap. After talking to don. And also, no I did not watch that video. But I watched the one before it...

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just looking at all the data.
Thoughts?

~Russ
First off, this guy has NO CLUE what he's talking about. And second, he's trying to profit off of it.

When you introduce a gap in the VIC core your not just changing the inductance of the coils, you are introducing leakage inductance to the circuit and reducing the coupling between the coils. The leakage inductance is not desired in the VIC circuit as it causes pulse distortion and can also cause the coils to output AC.

The only reasons why a unipolar type coil would need a gapped core are if the coil has large changes in flux density or the core area is very large. In the case of the VIC, neither one of the above apply.

Now back to that video. Those 2000 permeability cores are not the right core and they WILL NOT WORK. You can get a large core of the same material and permeability (exact same core they are selling) that can be cut (and it will make 5 VIC's) for $15 from surplussales.com. Just keep in mind that it's not the right core and the only way you could make it work is if you completly re-designed the coil.

Tony is dead on about the core material and the gap, but he didn't mention the damping factor of the coil which is very important. It is also the reason why those 2000 permeability cores will not work, and why the high resistance SS wire is used on the injector VIC coil. The coils natural response to any pulsed voltage is to output AC. In order to cutoff the AC the coil must be critically damped. If the inductance or resistance is not in the correct proportions the coil once again output AC. If the leakage inductance is too high the coil will not work, if the capaciance is too high in relation to resistance the coil will output AC. There are many factors to be considered in coil design, unfortunately the guy(s) in those videos have no clue what they even are, but they are happy to sell you a core at a 3300% markup.
Good reply,

Note to all: let's keep it to the facts and leave these guy(s) out... No worries! Let's keep doing what we are doing! All positive thoughts on the forms! You can post any negative or other thoughts on YouTube comments. No prob! But let's state facts and Leave else off the forms! We want a good reputation! I know the truth needs to be know also... But let's "play nice"

Thanks guys! Keep up te free thinking and open ideas! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM
I agree Russ,

I feel bad about slamming them but it gets to me when I see people trying to make money off of Stan's stuff. Greed has hindered this tech for far too long.

____________________________________________________________________

So back to the project:

I have an update on the coils I'm winding.

The primary coil turned out to be 550 turns and 10.5 Ohms, very close to the numbers which were posted back on page 8. Calculations were very close also, the work continues.

Oh and those were great ideas on the step motor and the arudino. Those are things I have very little knowledge about, so thanks for sharing you guys!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 3rd, 2012, 07:25 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM
I agree Russ,

I feel bad about slamming them but it gets to me when I see people trying to make money off of Stan's stuff. Greed has hindered this tech for far too long.

____________________________________________________________________

So back to the project:

I have an update on the coils I'm winding.

The primary coil turned out to be 550 turns and 10.5 Ohms, very close to the numbers which were posted back on page 8. Calculations were very close also, the work continues.

Oh and those were great ideas on the step motor and the arudino. Those are things I have very little knowledge about, so thanks for sharing you guys!
Thanks Russ and HMS-776.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 4th, 2012, 07:52 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM
I agree Russ,

I feel bad about slamming them but it gets to me when I see people trying to make money off of Stan's stuff. Greed has hindered this tech for far too long.

____________________________________________________________________

So back to the project:

I have an update on the coils I'm winding.

The primary coil turned out to be 550 turns and 10.5 Ohms, very close to the numbers which were posted back on page 8. Calculations were very close also, the work continues.

Oh and those were great ideas on the step motor and the arudino. Those are things I have very little knowledge about, so thanks for sharing you guys!
Looking good HMS! I'm right behind you :)

Did you use super glue for the printed bobbins? Did it not dissolve/melt?

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 4th, 2012, 08:26 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 4th, 2012, 07:52 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM
I agree Russ,

I feel bad about slamming them but it gets to me when I see people trying to make money off of Stan's stuff. Greed has hindered this tech for far too long.

____________________________________________________________________

So back to the project:

I have an update on the coils I'm winding.

The primary coil turned out to be 550 turns and 10.5 Ohms, very close to the numbers which were posted back on page 8. Calculations were very close also, the work continues.

Oh and those were great ideas on the step motor and the arudino. Those are things I have very little knowledge about, so thanks for sharing you guys!
Looking good HMS! I'm right behind you :)

Did you use super glue for the printed bobbins? Did it not dissolve/melt?

Br,
Webmug
Superglue works well on abs and pla, don't know about delrin.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on April 4th, 2012, 10:44 AM
Webmug,

Yes I used superglue at the ends, only a few dabs as I thought it might melt the plastic but it didn't.
The superglue worked well:)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 5th, 2012, 02:01 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on April 4th, 2012, 10:44 AM
Webmug,

Yes I used superglue at the ends, only a few dabs as I thought it might melt the plastic but it didn't.
The superglue worked well:)
Thanks, Jeff, HMS.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 5th, 2012, 04:00 AM
cores are ordered... yesterday. I will keep all posted on there progress.

supper glue works well yes.

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: danielgpalacios on April 6th, 2012, 02:05 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Jeff,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3794#pid3794

And some info from tony:
Quote
With my 2000 perm ferrite cores in place, the measurements are as followed:
Primary: 100mH (approx. 450 turns)
Feedback: 74.3mH (approx. 450 turns)
Secondary: 3.19H (3000 turns)
L1: 2.98H (approx. 2800-2900 turns)
L2: 2.53H (approx. 2600-2700 turns)

So as you can see from measurements with my cores, 2000 perm is way too high. By gaping the cores you introduce many problems. Here are the pro's and con's of a gaped core:

The advantages of an air gap can be summarized:
* Higher values of mmf can be tolerated before saturation takes place
* Reduced core losses (higher 'Q' factor).
* The flux is less sensitive to changes in current and temperature.
* Cores can be obtained in adjustable versions.

The disadvantages of the air gap are:
* More turns are required to obtain a given inductance.
* Increased losses in the windings (lower 'Q' factor).
* Increased leakage inductance.
* Increased radiated field.
* Increased susceptibility to external fields.

As you can see by having a gaped core it increases lower Q factors for the windings, increases leakage of inductance, and increases interference from external fields (unwanted noise). From calculations that I have done, it looks like the core should be somewhere between 800 - 1200 perm.
So. We don't know till we try. I don't think there is a gap. After talking to don. And also, no I did not watch that video. But I watched the one before it...

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just looking at all the data.
Thoughts?

~Russ
Irondmax said the permeability and separation adjusts is true. You get tested and see how varying the inductance varying the separation, but separation also has a second function works as air gap and is responsible for storing the energy that is transferred to the choke coils, the vic works as a flyback transformer stores energy when it has a positive cycle of the frequency generator when the pulse is not present all the energy stored in the air gap is transferred to the choke coils.
If you add separation, lower the inductance of the coils without touching the number of turns of the coils.
Danielgpalacios
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 6th, 2012, 02:33 PM
Quote from danielgpalacios on April 6th, 2012, 02:05 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 2nd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Russ have you seen this from Irondmaxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jOmtRt5tA&feature=digest_mon
He says the reason for the gap is to adjust the PM of the core, so if we buy 2000 PM we could adjust what is needed, if we buy 1000PM we won't . The guy is very irritating but he could be right, don't know, you make the choice and I will follow, just want to make an educated decision which I know you will, I trust your judgement, thanks Jeff.
Jeff,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3794#pid3794

And some info from tony:
Quote
With my 2000 perm ferrite cores in place, the measurements are as followed:
Primary: 100mH (approx. 450 turns)
Feedback: 74.3mH (approx. 450 turns)
Secondary: 3.19H (3000 turns)
L1: 2.98H (approx. 2800-2900 turns)
L2: 2.53H (approx. 2600-2700 turns)

So as you can see from measurements with my cores, 2000 perm is way too high. By gaping the cores you introduce many problems. Here are the pro's and con's of a gaped core:

The advantages of an air gap can be summarized:
* Higher values of mmf can be tolerated before saturation takes place
* Reduced core losses (higher 'Q' factor).
* The flux is less sensitive to changes in current and temperature.
* Cores can be obtained in adjustable versions.

The disadvantages of the air gap are:
* More turns are required to obtain a given inductance.
* Increased losses in the windings (lower 'Q' factor).
* Increased leakage inductance.
* Increased radiated field.
* Increased susceptibility to external fields.

As you can see by having a gaped core it increases lower Q factors for the windings, increases leakage of inductance, and increases interference from external fields (unwanted noise). From calculations that I have done, it looks like the core should be somewhere between 800 - 1200 perm.
So. We don't know till we try. I don't think there is a gap. After talking to don. And also, no I did not watch that video. But I watched the one before it...

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just looking at all the data.
Thoughts?

~Russ
Irondmax said the permeability and separation adjusts is true. You get tested and see how varying the inductance varying the separation, but separation also has a second function works as air gap and is responsible for storing the energy that is transferred to the choke coils, the vic works as a flyback transformer stores energy when it has a positive cycle of the frequency generator when the pulse is not present all the energy stored in the air gap is transferred to the choke coils.
If you add separation, lower the inductance of the coils without touching the number of turns of the coils.
Danielgpalacios
Ya Daniel, we'll just have to test all aspects of the core research, to really see what works and what doesn't, we will get there, we have to, here in Texas gasoline is almost  $4.00 a gallon, Jeff.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 6th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote
Irondmax said the permeability and separation adjusts is true. You get tested and see how varying the inductance varying the separation, but separation also has a second function works as air gap and is responsible for storing the energy that is transferred to the choke coils, the vic works as a flyback transformer stores energy when it has a positive cycle of the frequency generator when the pulse is not present all the energy stored in the air gap is transferred to the choke coils.
If you add separation, lower the inductance of the coils without touching the number of turns of the coils.
Danielgpalacios
Quote
Ya Daniel, we'll just have to test all aspects of the core research, to really see what works and what doesn't, we will get there, we have to, here in Texas gasoline is almost  $4.00 a gallon, Jeff.
all theory's need to be tested!

$4.09 / GAL here... egh!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on April 7th, 2012, 02:46 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 6th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote
Irondmax said the permeability and separation adjusts is true. You get tested and see how varying the inductance varying the separation, but separation also has a second function works as air gap and is responsible for storing the energy that is transferred to the choke coils, the vic works as a flyback transformer stores energy when it has a positive cycle of the frequency generator when the pulse is not present all the energy stored in the air gap is transferred to the choke coils.
If you add separation, lower the inductance of the coils without touching the number of turns of the coils.
Danielgpalacios
Quote
Ya Daniel, we'll just have to test all aspects of the core research, to really see what works and what doesn't, we will get there, we have to, here in Texas gasoline is almost  $4.00 a gallon, Jeff.
all theory's need to be tested!

$4.09 / GAL here... egh!
Don't know what you guys are complaining about, ... a liter costs 1,80 euros here, that would be $8.85 a gallon .... how about that?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 7th, 2012, 03:35 AM
Quote from Sharky on April 7th, 2012, 02:46 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 6th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote
Irondmax said the permeability and separation adjusts is true. You get tested and see how varying the inductance varying the separation, but separation also has a second function works as air gap and is responsible for storing the energy that is transferred to the choke coils, the vic works as a flyback transformer stores energy when it has a positive cycle of the frequency generator when the pulse is not present all the energy stored in the air gap is transferred to the choke coils.
If you add separation, lower the inductance of the coils without touching the number of turns of the coils.
Danielgpalacios
Quote
Ya Daniel, we'll just have to test all aspects of the core research, to really see what works and what doesn't, we will get there, we have to, here in Texas gasoline is almost  $4.00 a gallon, Jeff.
all theory's need to be tested!

$4.09 / GAL here... egh!
Don't know what you guys are complaining about, ... a liter costs 1,80 euros here, that would be $8.85 a gallon .... how about that?
hahaha you win you win! lol but... my $ is worth crap! LOL ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on April 7th, 2012, 05:07 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 7th, 2012, 03:35 AM
Quote from Sharky on April 7th, 2012, 02:46 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 6th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote
Irondmax said the permeability and separation adjusts is true. You get tested and see how varying the inductance varying the separation, but separation also has a second function works as air gap and is responsible for storing the energy that is transferred to the choke coils, the vic works as a flyback transformer stores energy when it has a positive cycle of the frequency generator when the pulse is not present all the energy stored in the air gap is transferred to the choke coils.
If you add separation, lower the inductance of the coils without touching the number of turns of the coils.
Danielgpalacios
Quote
Ya Daniel, we'll just have to test all aspects of the core research, to really see what works and what doesn't, we will get there, we have to, here in Texas gasoline is almost  $4.00 a gallon, Jeff.
all theory's need to be tested!

$4.09 / GAL here... egh!
Don't know what you guys are complaining about, ... a liter costs 1,80 euros here, that would be $8.85 a gallon .... how about that?
hahaha you win you win! lol but... my $ is worth crap! LOL ~Russ
What country are you in Sharky, whats the cost of a loaf of bread and housing?

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Muxar on April 7th, 2012, 06:57 AM
1,80?? WTF? i was almost crying for paying it 1,50 here in spain!!
Where are you from man?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 7th, 2012, 07:09 AM
Quote from Muxar on April 7th, 2012, 06:57 AM
1,80?? WTF? i was almost crying for paying it 1,50 here in spain!!
Where are you from man?
Netherlands!

Type ; euro/liter
--------------------
Euro95 ; 1.889
Super plus ; 1.959
Diesel ; 1.509
LPG ; 0.899

Br,
Webmug
Quote from HMS-776 on April 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM
I agree Russ,

I feel bad about slamming them but it gets to me when I see people trying to make money off of Stan's stuff. Greed has hindered this tech for far too long.

____________________________________________________________________

So back to the project:

I have an update on the coils I'm winding.

The primary coil turned out to be 550 turns and 10.5 Ohms, very close to the numbers which were posted back on page 8. Calculations were very close also, the work continues.

Oh and those were great ideas on the step motor and the arudino. Those are things I have very little knowledge about, so thanks for sharing you guys!
Hi HMS,

Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.

Not so perfect I wanted it to be.
Looks like my windings are not so perfect and I have more wire on the primary coil and less on the secondary:@.
I will remove 5.80 feet; (1.77 meter) from my primary coil, should get 10.5ohm!

Copper wire AWG30; 0.10320528 ohm/feet (0.3386 ohm / meter) 20 deg; 68 F

I think measuring wire length going onto the coil is the solution to match wire resistance. Wire turn count is not handy to use for exact coil values.

Trying to modify a IR-encoder from a PS/2 ball-mouse and use atmega328p to measure the wire length.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on April 7th, 2012, 02:17 PM
Webmug,

That's pretty close. It is hard to get a nice equal wind on the coils.
I use a small plastic card to push the wires into place as I'm winding them...I find the ends are the hardest and they can't be perfect.

I am going to wind all the secondary coils with an equal number of turns (around 3000-33000) and see what that gets me. Some of you guys may be wanting to match Meyer's bobbins and coils exactly. Experimenting is good....From the measurements and explanations of this coil it makes me wonder who wound the originals? Seems like the person didn't really put much attention to detail in them.

In Meyer's control and driver patent he states that each VIC and cell we are all trying to build can split 5 gallons of water per hour. One gallon of water contains about 4700 liters of hydrogen and 2350 liters of oxygen. Times this by 5 and you get over 35,000 liters of gas which comes up to 600 liters per mintue...

These numbers seem high. I tend to think the statement Meyer made in that patent about 5 gallons per hour was strictly theoretical!

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 9th, 2012, 11:06 PM
guys. i think i found out that the FB coil needs to be bifilar warped... may not? but by looking at my measurements and dons info it seems that the feed back coils is bifilar. otherwise the inductance would be off... ??? one coil would be less turns at a distance from the core ans the other more turns closer to the core. this would throw off the the inductance... or it could make it just right... the .4 ohms defiance is only like 1 foot of wire?

what is your thoughts??? im wrapping one now to see what happens. bifilar.

also. my measurements on the C1 and C2... the turn counts are swopped... just seen that! ill re upload the excel sheet data once i'm done fixing the FB coil.

PS>

the  5 gallons per hour has always been something to talk about...

some one should start a thread on that subject... ( there may be one already...)


~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 9th, 2012, 11:10 PM
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 10th, 2012, 01:20 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 9th, 2012, 11:06 PM
guys. i think i found out that the FB coil needs to be bifilar warped... may not? but by looking at my measurements and dons info it seems that the feed back coils is bifilar. otherwise the inductance would be off... ??? one coil would be less turns at a distance from the core ans the other more turns closer to the core. this would throw off the the inductance... or it could make it just right... the .4 ohms defiance is only like 1 foot of wire?

what is your thoughts??? im wrapping one now to see what happens. bifilar.

also. my measurements on the C1 and C2... the turn counts are swopped... just seen that! ill re upload the excel sheet data once i'm done fixing the FB coil.


~Russ
well... here it is: looks good: all most dead on:

Code: [Select]

                                                         Feedback 1 Feed back 2
wire resantce on air core (100hz) 11.507 @ .1884Q 11.501 @ .1884Q
wire resantce on air core (120hz) 11.682 @ .3360Q 11.675 @ .2261Q
wire resantce on air core (1khz) 50.54 @ 1.8827Q 50.51 @ 1.8828Q
wire resantce on air core (10khz) 3.6893K @ 17.524Q 3.693K @ 17.590Q
inductance on air core (100hz) 3.332mh @ .1884Q 3.331mh @ 1.885Q
inductance on air core(120hz) 3.332mh @ .2261Q 3.330mh @ .2262Q
inductance on air core (1khz) 3.332mh @ 1.8829Q 3.330mh @ 1.8842Q
inductance on air core (10khz) 3.339mh @ 17.510Q 3.335mh @ 17.555Q
capacitance on air core(100hz) 26.05uf @ 5.3077Q 26.12uf @ 5.3015Q
capacitance on air core(120hz) 25.66uf @ 4.4240Q 25.73uf @ 4.4180Q
capacitance on air core (1khz) 5.928uf @ .5311Q 5.935uf @ .5305Q
capacitance on air core(10khz) 75.62nf @ .0570Q 75.70nf @ .0579Q
wire resantce on air core (fluke) 11.3 11.3



and stans:
Code: [Select]

Coil Feedback1 Feedback2
Thick in 0.0155 0.0155
R (Fluke) Ohms 11.5 11.1
R(BK) @100Hz Ohms 12 11.58
R(BK) @120Hz Ohms 12.14 11.74
R(BK) @ 1kHz Ohms 49.35 51.5
R(BK) @ 10kHz Ohms 3.22k 3.42k
L(BK) @100Hz H 3.47mH @ 0.188Q 3.43mH @ 0.192Q
L(BK) @120Hz H 3.3mH @ 0.214Q 3.34mH @ 0.225Q
L(BK) @ 1kHz H 3.3mH @ 1.8Q 3.36mH @ 1.89Q
L(BK) @ 10kHz H 3.3mH @ 16Q 3.34mH @ 16.8Q
C(BK) @100Hz F 23.7uF @ 5.61D 25.86uF @ 5.34D
C(BK) @120Hz F 23.3uF @ 4.67D 25.5uF @ 4.42D
C(BK) @ 1kHz F 5.75uF @ 0.552D 5.82uF 0.524D
C(BK) @ 10kHz F 83nF @ 0.061D 81.85nF @ 0.059D


looks good but i think it still may come out close when warped the other way...

also added my cell and stans measurements in the ecxell...

~Russ

updated on this post:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3580#pid3580

Code: [Select]


my CELL
resantce (100hz) 3.701k @ .0064Q
 resantce (120hz) 3.687k @ .0063Q
 resantce (1khz) 3.656k @ .0355
 resantce (10khz) 3.751k @ .3226Q
inductance (100hz) 35.44mh @ .0061Q
inductance (120hz) 29.26mh @ .0060Q
inductance (1khz) 20.30mh @ .0351Q
inductance (10khz) 17.19mh @ .3191Q
capacitance (100hz) 2.6nf @ 166.17Q
capacitance  (120hz) 2.16nf @ 167.14Q
capacitance (1khz) 153pf @ 28.5Q
capacitance (10khz) 1360.8pf @ 3.1466Q
resantce (fluke) 330k
Z (100hz) 3.661k @ .0062Q
Z (120hz) 3.658k @ .0061Q
Z (1khz) 3.632k @ .0353Q
Z (10khz) 3.556k @ .3203
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 10th, 2012, 02:38 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 10th, 2012, 01:20 AM
my CELL    
resantce (100hz)   3.701k @ .0064Q
 resantce (120hz)   3.687k @ .0063Q
resantce (1khz)   3.656k @ .0355
 resantce (10khz)   3.751k @ .3226Q

inductance (100hz)   35.44mh @ .0061Q
inductance (120hz)   29.26mh @ .0060Q
inductance (1khz)   20.30mh @ .0351Q
inductance (10khz)   17.19mh @ .3191Q
capacitance (100hz)   2.6nf @ 166.17Q
capacitance  (120hz)   2.16nf @ 167.14Q
capacitance (1khz)   153pf @ 28.5Q
capacitance (10khz)   1360.8pf @ 3.1466Q

resantce (fluke)   330k
Z (100hz)   3.661k @ .0062Q
Z (120hz)   3.658k @ .0061Q
Z (1khz)   3.632k @ .0353Q
Z (10khz)   3.556k @ .3203
Quote from Webmug on April 3rd, 2012, 10:27 AM
Major problem are the design parameters, what kind of cell is used (capacitance) and type of water (resistance).

We can have UNIPOLAR pulses with a resistance of 3kOhm for the 1100mH chokes
and using tap water (3kOhm/475nF/1100mH), theoretically speaking!

Br,
Webmug
Great measurements, Russ! Thanks.

Looks like the resistance is what I expected it should be between the WATER GAP exciters.

BUT... :exclamation:

Question: what type of water did you use in the WFC, the C values have different range compared with Dynodon's measurements?
Tap water should be 5.72uF (1kHz); 288.5nF (10kHz)
Distilled 25nF(1kHz); ...nF (10kHz);

Br,
Webmug
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 9th, 2012, 11:10 PM
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Yes, I wind the coils with my drill setup. So not perfect layered.

It is important to get the values close as possible. Almost impossible to get it equal values.
The PLL should solve the resonance tuning if we are little off inductance/capacitance.

What really matters are the chokes (tuning equal but opposite voltages) connected to the wfc.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 10th, 2012, 03:04 AM
Quote
Question: what type of water did you use in the WFC,
yeah... forgot that part... im using distilled... but there may be contaminants in the cell and also its not conditioned... like Stans cell was... so its may be different... also, cap values change drastically all the time with just slight changes in the water... and when there is bubbles and such... its crazy how much much changes.  

also
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
    Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
    Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 10th, 2012, 03:14 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 10th, 2012, 03:04 AM
Quote
Question: what type of water did you use in the WFC,
yeah... forgot that part... im using distilled... but there may be contaminants in the cell and also its not conditioned... like Stans cell was... so its may be different... also, cap values change drastically all the time with just slight changes in the water... and when there is bubbles and such... its crazy how much much changes.  

also
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
    Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
    Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Distilled, oh my!:huh: Not really KISS is it?

Just poor some tap water in it and do the measurements again, please.
The WFC capacitance is too small for the chokes if we are using distilled water.

The exciters are conditioned? Not heard this before, why would you do this?
The contaminants are handled by the PLL circuit and capacitance is changing little but it C (resonant frequency) is in range of the scanner if you use tap water!

Thanks!

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 10th, 2012, 03:26 AM
Webmug, did you post this? if so whats my answer?
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
    Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
    Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 10th, 2012, 03:58 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 10th, 2012, 03:26 AM
Webmug, did you post this? if so whats my answer?
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
    Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
    Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Yes, my post.
I wind the coils with my drill setup. So not perfect layered.

It is important to get the values close as possible. Almost impossible to get it equal values.
The PLL should solve the resonance tuning if we are little off inductance/capacitance.

What really matters are the chokes (tuning equal but opposite voltages) connected to the wfc.

Br,
Webmug


Code: [Select]

WFC Russ
capacitance (1khz) 153pf @ 28.5Q
capacitance (10khz) 1360.8pf @ 3.1466Q

Russ, is your measurement on 10kHz value correct in distilled water? (too high)

Rain water should have almost the same capacitance value.

When I calculate the choke POS, the resonant frequency is 11.8kHz.
(1200mH; 153pF; 3.75kOhm)

Thinking:
So if you can get double pulse we have to drive it with halve the frequency (5.9kHz), I guess??

If you drive the secondary and get 200Vpp AC on resonance and run it with the resonant choke you have 6kV Vmax. and 6kV Vmin. (calculated).

Looks like the self-resonance frequency of my secondary is 14.2kHz. So then my Cp is 120pF!!!! with 1047mH;
What if C wfc < Cp chokes?

Hmmm...:exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 10th, 2012, 04:33 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 10th, 2012, 03:58 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 10th, 2012, 03:26 AM
Webmug, did you post this? if so whats my answer?
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
    Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
    Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Yes, my post.
I wind the coils with my drill setup. So not perfect layered.

It is important to get the values close as possible. Almost impossible to get it equal values.
The PLL should solve the resonance tuning if we are little off inductance/capacitance.

What really matters are the chokes (tuning equal but opposite voltages) connected to the wfc.

Br,
Webmug


Code: [Select]
WFC Russ
capacitance (1khz) 153pf @ 28.5Q
capacitance (10khz) 1360.8pf @ 3.1466Q
Russ, is your measurement on 10kHz value correct in distilled water? (too high)

Rain water should have almost the same capacitance value.

When I calculate the choke POS, the resonant frequency is 11.8kHz.
(1200mH; 153pF; 3.75kOhm)

Thinking:
So if you can get double pulse we have to drive it with halve the frequency (5.9kHz), I guess??

If you drive the secondary and get 200Vpp AC on resonance and run it with the resonant choke you have 6kV Vmax. and 6kV Vmin. (calculated).

Looks like the self-resonance frequency of my secondary is 14.2kHz. So then my Cp is 120pF!!!! with 1047mH;
What if C wfc < Cp chokes?

Hmmm...:exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
hummm, ok, yes i will re due the measurements with tap water...

also. one thing that my be a prob is that i can set my LRC meter to series or parallel... i think on normal LRC meter its all ready set... so like on the coils i had to switch to from series to parallel to get the correct measurements..."meter on PAL for R and C but set on SER for L" on my coil measurements...  the  so i may have the wrong setting for the cap... :) that i can play with more later...

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on April 10th, 2012, 07:58 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 10th, 2012, 04:33 AM
Quote from Webmug on April 10th, 2012, 03:58 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on April 10th, 2012, 03:26 AM
Webmug, did you post this? if so whats my answer?
Quote
Finished winding my primary and secondary coils.
    Primary 30AWG; 550wnd; 2.049mH; 11.1ohm.
    Secondary 30AWG; 2700wnd; 64.76mH; 70.0ohm.
how are you winding these? by hand and trying to get every layer perfect ???

just trying to compare my coil with yours... i just went at it with a drill! lol

i also think that the turns count needs to be just a way to get you close...

thanks! ~Russ
Yes, my post.
I wind the coils with my drill setup. So not perfect layered.

It is important to get the values close as possible. Almost impossible to get it equal values.
The PLL should solve the resonance tuning if we are little off inductance/capacitance.

What really matters are the chokes (tuning equal but opposite voltages) connected to the wfc.

Br,
Webmug


Code: [Select]
WFC Russ
capacitance (1khz) 153pf @ 28.5Q
capacitance (10khz) 1360.8pf @ 3.1466Q
Russ, is your measurement on 10kHz value correct in distilled water? (too high)

Rain water should have almost the same capacitance value.

When I calculate the choke POS, the resonant frequency is 11.8kHz.
(1200mH; 153pF; 3.75kOhm)

Thinking:
So if you can get double pulse we have to drive it with halve the frequency (5.9kHz), I guess??

If you drive the secondary and get 200Vpp AC on resonance and run it with the resonant choke you have 6kV Vmax. and 6kV Vmin. (calculated).

Looks like the self-resonance frequency of my secondary is 14.2kHz. So then my Cp is 120pF!!!! with 1047mH;
What if C wfc < Cp chokes?

Hmmm...:exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
hummm, ok, yes i will re due the measurements with tap water...

also. one thing that my be a prob is that i can set my LRC meter to series or parallel... i think on normal LRC meter its all ready set... so like on the coils i had to switch to from series to parallel to get the correct measurements..."meter on PAL for R and C but set on SER for L" on my coil measurements...  the  so i may have the wrong setting for the cap... :) that i can play with more later...

~Russ
If we want to know it for sure do both measurements: series and than also parallel :cool:
http://kb.bkprecision.com/questions.php?questionid=22

Tap water should give lower resistance, you think also?
Rain water is almost the same as distilled water.

What do you think, did Stan boil and condensed the water for the WFC?
The steam resonator also works with distilled-, tap-, rain water and or did he mixed them all in the cavity? :D

Thanks!

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on April 11th, 2012, 12:39 AM
Quote
If we want to know it for sure do both measurements: series and than also parallel :cool:
http://kb.bkprecision.com/questions.php?questionid=22

Tap water should give lower resistance, you think also?
Rain water is almost the same as distilled water.

What do you think, did Stan boil and condensed the water for the WFC?
The steam resonator also works with distilled-, tap-, rain water and or did he mixed them all in the cavity? :D

Thanks!

Br,
Webmug
good link. thanks. i will try both. and also different water... thanks ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on April 18th, 2012, 07:16 PM


Trying to modify a IR-encoder from a PS/2 ball-mouse and use atmega328p to measure the wire length.

Br,
Webmug[/quote]can you give more info about that?video?something?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on April 18th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Quote from adys15 on April 18th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Trying to modify a IR-encoder from a PS/2 ball-mouse and use atmega328p to measure the wire length.

Br,
Webmug
can you give more info about that?video?something?[/quote]Here is a video using one for a Dynometer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnnX1FwiWQ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on April 20th, 2012, 02:53 PM
note
from stans last letter

Dan
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on April 22nd, 2012, 01:17 AM
More summary more specs,

please comment and will adjust or add to it.

Dan
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 25th, 2012, 06:32 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 27th, 2012, 08:09 PM
What do you guys recommend/use as far as oscilloscopes and HV probes are concerned?

I have been looking at the Parallax Propscope (USB scope) for about $200.
It has a spectrum analyzer which I think is important for what we are trying to do...I also want something with a digital LCR meter....

Either way I think I will be making my own HV probes with a 1,000 : 1 voltage divider just to be on the safe side.
Rigol DS 1052E scope
PeakTech 2165 LCR meter

I also made a simple voltage divider attempt for HV by using 10 resistors 10M each in series but believe it or not it made no voltage reduction as calculated and it made a positive DC voltage oscillation look like an AC oscillation at a differential input probe.
I think it can be made but not that simple way I did ...
Title: Basic note Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on April 27th, 2012, 10:39 AM
Sorry this is a bit basic level ,

but posting link anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjwzpoCiF8A&feature=related

as May help some one.

Dan
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 2nd, 2012, 04:54 PM
It's been a few weeks since the core material was ordered....Any word yet Russ?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: MrBluesky on May 4th, 2012, 02:23 PM
Hello All
     Im new to this forum but I hope I can help in this research and development process. I have to admit that Im not all that savy with the electronics end of things. Im just pretty good at designing and building stuff. I came across this material for a core for the VIC Transformer: MN67. I hope im not repeating something that has already been tried. I havent gotten a chance to read through everything here! I have attached the datasheet.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 4th, 2012, 03:51 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on May 2nd, 2012, 04:54 PM
It's been a few weeks since the core material was ordered....Any word yet Russ?
Not yet! I will call Monday to check up... Lead time was 4-6 weeks... Thanks!! ~russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 10th, 2012, 11:06 PM
hey guys! better late than never... called and emailed the guy about the cores today, the guy must have been out... i will try again tomorrow. i'm still on top of it. ill keep you posted!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Hi,

This is my Simple DIY Coilwinder I use for winding the VIC coils.

It is based on the RepRap Sanguinololu v1.3 circuit to drive the Extruder Stepper.
Firmware is based on Sprinter.

I made a few hacks in the firmware to read a pot resistor and two switches for direction, power and speed.

Stepper speed regulation is not accurate on high speed, feel free to update this firmware. Let me know if you solved this!
(but you will not run this at high speed winding this type of coils) :cool:

NOTE. do not use this firmware for your RepRap 3D printer.

Firmware attached!

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 09:49 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Hi,

This is my Simple DIY Coilwinder I use for winding the VIC coils.

It is based on the RepRap Sanguinololu v1.3 circuit to drive the Extruder Stepper.
Firmware is based on Sprinter.

I made a few hacks in the firmware to read a pot resistor and two switches for direction, power and speed.

Stepper speed regulation is not accurate on high speed, feel free to update this firmware. Let me know if you solved this!
(but you will not run this at high speed winding this type of coils) :cool:

NOTE. do not use this firmware for your RepRap 3D printer.

Firmware attached!

Br,
Webmug
That's very cool webmug, I wonder if it would work with the arduino Uno and a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver.:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 09:49 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Hi,

This is my Simple DIY Coilwinder I use for winding the VIC coils.

It is based on the RepRap Sanguinololu v1.3 circuit to drive the Extruder Stepper.
Firmware is based on Sprinter.

I made a few hacks in the firmware to read a pot resistor and two switches for direction, power and speed.

Stepper speed regulation is not accurate on high speed, feel free to update this firmware. Let me know if you solved this!
(but you will not run this at high speed winding this type of coils) :cool:

NOTE. do not use this firmware for your RepRap 3D printer.

Firmware attached!

Br,
Webmug
That's very cool webmug, I wonder if it would work with the arduino Uno and a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver.:D
Hi Jeff,

Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.

But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 09:49 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Hi,

This is my Simple DIY Coilwinder I use for winding the VIC coils.

It is based on the RepRap Sanguinololu v1.3 circuit to drive the Extruder Stepper.
Firmware is based on Sprinter.

I made a few hacks in the firmware to read a pot resistor and two switches for direction, power and speed.

Stepper speed regulation is not accurate on high speed, feel free to update this firmware. Let me know if you solved this!
(but you will not run this at high speed winding this type of coils) :cool:

NOTE. do not use this firmware for your RepRap 3D printer.

Firmware attached!

Br,
Webmug
That's very cool webmug, I wonder if it would work with the arduino Uno and a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver.:D
Hi Jeff,

Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.

But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D

Br,
Webmug
I wonder if floaty boaty could help with this, he is really good with software. He could possibly even just write a program to control the speed and count the turns [opto] as it's winding, maybe even run a display for speed and count. To do the count we could use one end of the square bobbin to pass through the opto as it turns, make the opto adjustable for different size bobbins, as well, that would really be cool.:D:cool::P
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Hi,

I finished the VIC coil windings on the bobbins.
Unfortunate the secondary (2700wnd) has not enough windings so the resistance is too low. So I have to unwind it for next update. Feedback coil has center-tapped coil.

Russ, did you center-tapped the feedback. (400wnd, then extra wire, 400wnd) total of 800 wnd?

Chokes have to many windings. (3100wnd) I'm waiting for the core to arrive so I can adjust for exact values.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on May 12th, 2012, 10:59 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Hi,

I finished the VIC coil windings on the bobbins.
Unfortunate the secondary (2700wnd) has not enough windings so the resistance is too low. So I have to unwind it for next update. Feedback coil has center-tapped coil.

Russ, did you center-tapped the feedback. (400wnd, then extra wire, 400wnd) total of 800 wnd?

Chokes have to many windings. (3100wnd) I'm waiting for the core to arrive so I can adjust for exact values.

Br,
Webmug

Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 09:49 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Hi,

This is my Simple DIY Coilwinder I use for winding the VIC coils.

It is based on the RepRap Sanguinololu v1.3 circuit to drive the Extruder Stepper.
Firmware is based on Sprinter.

I made a few hacks in the firmware to read a pot resistor and two switches for direction, power and speed.

Stepper speed regulation is not accurate on high speed, feel free to update this firmware. Let me know if you solved this!
(but you will not run this at high speed winding this type of coils) :cool:

NOTE. do not use this firmware for your RepRap 3D printer.

Firmware attached!

Br,
Webmug
That's very cool webmug, I wonder if it would work with the arduino Uno and a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver.:D
Hi Jeff,

Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.

But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D

Br,
Webmug
I wonder if floaty boaty could help with this, he is really good with software. He could possibly even just write a program to control the speed and count the turns [opto] as it's winding, maybe even run a display for speed and count. To do the count we could use one end of the square bobbin to pass through the opto as it turns, make the opto adjustable for different size bobbins, as well, that would really be cool.:D:cool::P
Yes, got a analog counter :D
Counting the windings should give an indication, but we need to know the resistance. So counting the wire feed length should be better.

Br,
Webmug
The VIC coil looks excellent! :cool: So you wound the coils with your new stepper winder?  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 11:03 AM
Yes,
wound it with my simple DY coil winder.Got a analog counter attached :D
Counting the windings should give an indication, but we need to know the resistance. So counting the wire feed length should be better.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: FloatyBoaty on May 12th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Hi Jeff,

Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.

But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D

Br,
Webmug
I wonder if floaty boaty could help with this, he is really good with software. He could possibly even just write a program to control the speed and count the turns [opto] as it's winding, maybe even run a display for speed and count. To do the count we could use one end of the square bobbin to pass through the opto as it turns, make the opto adjustable for different size bobbins, as well, that would really be cool.:D:cool::P
No problem.  Looking into it now.  :D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 12:26 PM
Quote from FloatyBoaty on May 12th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Hi Jeff,

Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.

But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D

Br,
Webmug
I wonder if floaty boaty could help with this, he is really good with software. He could possibly even just write a program to control the speed and count the turns [opto] as it's winding, maybe even run a display for speed and count. To do the count we could use one end of the square bobbin to pass through the opto as it turns, make the opto adjustable for different size bobbins, as well, that would really be cool.:D:cool::P
No problem.  Looking into it now.  :D
Thanks Johnathan:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 13th, 2012, 01:10 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Hi,

I finished the VIC coil windings on the bobbins.
Unfortunate the secondary (2700wnd) has not enough windings so the resistance is too low. So I have to unwind it for next update. Feedback coil has center-tapped coil.

Russ, did you center-tapped the feedback. (400wnd, then extra wire, 400wnd) total of 800 wnd?

Chokes have to many windings. (3100wnd) I'm waiting for the core to arrive so I can adjust for exact values.

Br,
Webmug
I wrapped the pickup coils bifilar...

also
on this subject:
Quote
RE: Step by step VIC build
Hi,

This is my Simple DIY Coilwinder I use for winding the VIC coils.

It is based on the RepRap Sanguinololu v1.3 circuit to drive the Extruder Stepper.
Firmware is based on Sprinter.

I made a few hacks in the firmware to read a pot resistor and two switches for direction, power and speed.

Stepper speed regulation is not accurate on high speed, feel free to update this firmware. Let me know if you solved this!
(but you will not run this at high speed winding this type of coils) Cool

NOTE. do not use this firmware for your RepRap 3D printer.

Firmware attached!

Br,
Webmug
lets start a new AUTO COIL WINDER THREAD under the open source projects as that is a grate place for others to find it as this is going to be a very sweet build!!!

looking forward to it! :)


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 13th, 2012, 03:16 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 13th, 2012, 01:10 AM
I wrapped the pickup coils bifilar...
My feedback coil measurements are:
FB1: 9.0ohms; 400wnd; 2.67mH
FB2: 12.1ohms; 400wnd; 4.30mH

Not bifilar, but as one coil but center-tapped.
What is the difference winding bifilar for feedback coil, should be tested.
One thing I know is that you have the same resistance with bifilar. :cool:

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 13th, 2012, 03:48 AM
Quote
One thing I know is that you have the same resistance with bifilar.
yes, and look at the data from the estate and the data i collected... :)

matches...

but yes try both!
~Russ

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 13th, 2012, 04:26 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 13th, 2012, 03:48 AM
Quote
One thing I know is that you have the same resistance with bifilar.
yes, and look at the data from the estate and the data i collected... :)

matches...

but yes try both!
~Russ
The reason why I ask is that you got two tables with data in:
"VIC_Readings RWG Forms 4-14-12.xls"
Building Notes said Bifilar, correct!

But number of turns "?" and bottom table resistances FB1 and FB2 are different.

Thanks!

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 13th, 2012, 04:35 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 13th, 2012, 04:26 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 13th, 2012, 03:48 AM
Quote
One thing I know is that you have the same resistance with bifilar.
yes, and look at the data from the estate and the data i collected... :)

matches...

but yes try both!
~Russ
The reason why I ask is that you got two tables with data in:
"VIC_Readings RWG Forms 4-14-12.xls"
Building Notes said Bifilar, correct!

But number of turns "?" and bottom table resistances FB1 and FB2 are different.

Thanks!

Br,
Webmug
I did it both ways, when I wraped the bifilar I did not mesure the turns... Lol just went with it till it was full then unwrapped some...

But yes. I finalized mine with bifilar.

Thanks!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 13th, 2012, 05:54 AM
How high is the voltage from the chokes?

If we look at the connection terminals, they are rubber insulated from the ALU box.
There is a spark at 3kV/mm in air.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/AliceHong.shtml

Neoprene rubber[2]    15.7 - 26.7kV/mm

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 15th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 10th, 2012, 11:06 PM
hey guys! better late than never... called and emailed the guy about the cores today, the guy must have been out... i will try again tomorrow. i'm still on top of it. ill keep you posted!

~Russ
should be shipped to me by the end of the week... video time when i get them! ;)

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 19th, 2012, 04:45 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 15th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 10th, 2012, 11:06 PM
hey guys! better late than never... called and emailed the guy about the cores today, the guy must have been out... i will try again tomorrow. i'm still on top of it. ill keep you posted!

~Russ
should be shipped to me by the end of the week... video time when i get them! ;)

~Russ
yeah! cores are shipped to my house! :) be Tuesday or so... ill make a video them pack them up and off they go!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 20th, 2012, 09:54 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 19th, 2012, 04:45 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 15th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 10th, 2012, 11:06 PM
hey guys! better late than never... called and emailed the guy about the cores today, the guy must have been out... i will try again tomorrow. i'm still on top of it. ill keep you posted!

~Russ
should be shipped to me by the end of the week... video time when i get them! ;)

~Russ
yeah! cores are shipped to my house! :) be Tuesday or so... ill make a video them pack them up and off they go!

~Russ
Hey Russ,

Finally....it's about time! :cool: lol :D
Can't wait to test and see the difference with this core type! :D :D

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: xxzeropiontxx on May 20th, 2012, 04:17 PM
here is a link that might be interesting to some   http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/estimating_q_of_ferrite_cores.htm
gap or no gap in the core     http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/gap/index.html
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on May 20th, 2012, 05:42 PM
Quote from xxzeropiontxx on May 20th, 2012, 04:17 PM
here is a link that might be interesting to some   http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/estimating_q_of_ferrite_cores.htm

gap or no gap in the core     http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/gap/index.html
Good info and post, Jeff.:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 24th, 2012, 05:34 PM
Russ,

Good to see your videos showing that you got the cores in.....And those original injector drawings, Awesome......I have tried very hard to get a hold of those but never had any luck, so thank you.

I think we're all going to be in a bind trying to get the 5 coil VIC working.....When Don had them in his posession he could hit resonance but he said they never produced any gas. (To me it seems like the actual coil design is the issue.)

In the Injector VIC drawing there is a part number for the electrical steel which I am emailing the company about....Hope people out there start building and selling injector parts, Since we have exact specs it might be a better avenue....

[attachment=1483]

Ready for the VIC core, just in time.....Lets all just keep our fingers crossed!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 25th, 2012, 01:30 AM
good stuff guys!

i sent out all but sharky's and webmug's... this over seeas stuff sucks! lol

everyone should have them either by friday or tuesday... please send me a PM to let me know you got them!

the cores and ECT that is...

keep up the good work guys! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on May 27th, 2012, 04:02 AM
I have found a cnc guy who can route alloy out he only does
simply blocks  similar to housing  ,

 so if we have a foam or ply mould
to make sample for sketup we can get housing samples made.

Dan

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on May 27th, 2012, 09:00 AM
Im about half way done with the VIC box sketchup.  Need to start the cover next.

[attachment=1509]

I'm 99% sure on most of the measurements.  The measurements in the Z axis are hard to pull from the photos.  All the important measurments are good though.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on May 29th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 25th, 2012, 01:30 AM
good stuff guys!

i sent out all but sharky's and webmug's... this over seeas stuff sucks! lol

everyone should have them either by friday or tuesday... please send me a PM to let me know you got them!

the cores and ECT that is...

keep up the good work guys! ~Russ
Results so far with the 1200 permeability cores:

(Unknown brand) CA-4070L LCR Meter
Only one inductance measuring frequency capability and frequency is unknown. No meter documentation found.

Measured loosely; no endcaps attached.

Primary
3.00mH - both custom magnetite cores
2.77mH - no core
84.0mH - both 1200 permeability cores
27.5mH - one 1200 permeability core

Feedback
7.40mH - no core
88.5mH - both 1200 permeability cores
11.7mH - one 1200 permeability core (both sides)

Secondary
75.0mH - no core
1.46H - both 1200 permeability cores
0.50H - one 1200 permeability core

Choke 1
86.8mH - no core
1.60H - both 1200 permeability cores
0.57H - one 1200 permeability core

Choke 2
88.0mH - no core
1.65H - both 1200 permeability cores
0.57H - one 1200 permeability core

Coil resistance and wind count of the VIC transformer replication can be found here in this thread on post #120:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=2992#pid2992
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 29th, 2012, 05:19 PM
Russ,

Recieved my core and bobbins today!

Once I get it all together and the circuit working I am going to perform many tests on the coils before I connect to the cell. I will report my findings and tests and explain why I did them.

Thanks and blessings to all!

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: nbq201 on May 29th, 2012, 05:26 PM
Quote from haxar on May 29th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 25th, 2012, 01:30 AM
good stuff guys!

i sent out all but sharky's and webmug's... this over seeas stuff sucks! lol

everyone should have them either by friday or tuesday... please send me a PM to let me know you got them!

the cores and ECT that is...

keep up the good work guys! ~Russ
Results so far with the 1200 permeability cores:

(Unknown brand) CA-4070L LCR Meter
Only one inductance measuring frequency capability and frequency is unknown. No meter documentation found.

Measured loosely; no endcaps attached.

Primary
3.00mH - both custom magnetite cores
2.77mH - no core
84.0mH - both 1200 permeability cores
27.5mH - one 1200 permeability core

Feedback
7.40mH - no core
88.5mH - both 1200 permeability cores
11.7mH - one 1200 permeability core (both sides)

Secondary
75.0mH - no core
1.46H - both 1200 permeability cores
0.50H - one 1200 permeability core

Choke 1
86.8mH - no core
1.60H - both 1200 permeability cores
0.57H - one 1200 permeability core

Choke 2
88.0mH - no core
1.65H - both 1200 permeability cores
0.57H - one 1200 permeability core

Coil resistance and wind count of the VIC transformer replication can be found here in this thread on post #120:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=2992#pid2992
Interesting.  It looks like the LCR you have is this one also goes under the
brand name of NEWCASON and a different model of XC4070L

 http://www.dealexcel.com/lcr-rcl-inductance-resistance-capacitance-meter-4070l-sku647_p647.html

 For $20.00 not bad, but it is a Chinese Shenzhen special. It's sold all over the internet but the original manufacture is hard to find.  Here is the best I can do for instructions, if it's the same unit.  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on May 29th, 2012, 10:56 PM
EDIT (6/7/2012):

NOTICE:

I need to make clear that this data from testing the VIC circuit is inconclusive. It is experimental/informal data and is not final data. Other testing methodologies (not known and not done yet) need to be employed for more data to be available until arriving at a conclusion. All this data is neither good nor bad data.


I have seen that there may have been objections to the testing methodology I have used to arrive at this data. If the testing methodology I have used is not good enough, please prove it.


DEFINITION:

testing methodology (or test method) - strategy or method that produces data or a result.




Here's an addendum to the inductance measurements with a scope shot:

This was an attempt to get a maximum peak voltage from the 1200 permeability cores with the VIC circuit. Other circuits need to be tried (i.e, a standard or gated frequency generator).


[/list]

(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=1540)(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=1541)

See PDF attachment or click on the above image for a vector image of this scope shot.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on May 30th, 2012, 02:41 AM

Nice on NATE
well done,

can you post file if ready on that as like to
see measurements and get people playing in 3d and making

I have router guy for this one ready

Daniel
Quote from firepinto on May 27th, 2012, 09:00 AM
Im about half way done with the VIC box sketchup.  Need to start the cover next.



I'm 99% sure on most of the measurements.  The measurements in the Z axis are hard to pull from the photos.  All the important measurments are good though.

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 30th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Started testing coils tonight. I'm taking measurements and making calculations before I try connecting to the cell.

I have been testing coils individually with the core inserted and bolted down. Resonance of each coil has been found. Interesting to note that the L2 Choke (directly across from the primary coil) has a resonance which is several orders greater than the other secondary coils.

The testing continues.

Coil Specs:

Primary
34.2mH, 12.5 Ohms
Feedback
28.7mH, 13.2 Ohms
Secondary
1.038H, 77.4 Ohms
L1
.823H, 77.9 Ohms
L2
.820H, 76.5 Ohms
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on May 30th, 2012, 09:31 PM
Quote
Nice on NATE
well done,

can you post file if ready on that as like to
see measurements and get people playing in 3d and making

I have router guy for this one ready

Daniel
I still have to start the cover, my "day" job keeps eating up my "OS" job time! lol  Might have time tomorrow.:cool:  I will eventually add the wire fittings too, still looking for something that fits the 2 hole pattern inside of the box.  I'm thinking of some kind of 2 screw terminal strip with mounting holes on each end.  Possibly a black plastic PCB style phillips screw terminal, I just cant find what im thinking of.  The holes are for 6-32 screws.



Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 30th, 2012, 09:34 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on May 30th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Started testing coils tonight. I'm taking measurements and making calculations before I try connecting to the cell.

I have been testing coils individually with the core inserted and bolted down. Resonance of each coil has been found. Interesting to note that the L2 Choke (directly across from the primary coil) has a resonance which is several orders greater than the other secondary coils.

The testing continues.

Coil Specs:

Primary
34.2mH, 12.5 Ohms
Feedback
28.7mH, 13.2 Ohms
Secondary
1.038H, 77.4 Ohms
L1
.823H, 77.9 Ohms
L2
.820H, 76.5 Ohms
interesting, could you post your other test data also? like each self resonant, ect?

that is with the new core, yes?

cool! thanks for sharing! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 30th, 2012, 09:46 PM
Yes all this info is with the 1200 permeability cores that we special ordered;)


Primary
34.2mH, 12.5 Ohms   Fres: 60.1 kHz
Feedback
28.7mH, 13.2 Ohms   Fres: 20kHz
Secondary
1.038H, 77.4 Ohms    Fres: 10.5 kHz
L1
.823H, 77.9 Ohms     Fres: 44kHz
L2
.820H, 76.5 Ohms     Fres: 13.5 kHz

I will test everything again tomorrow to confirm these numbers. I am also going to remove the core and test Fres of each coil. This is so I can calculate (estimate) the coils capacitance. From there I will make some calculations and try to understand more about why the coils are producing AC from a square wave signal.....

I will also connect the driver circuit soon so I can test with a unipolar square wave to see if the polarity is shifting. I believe that is one of the problems with getting this tech working.




Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 31st, 2012, 12:12 AM
and the data is in... man that's a lot of work! lol

Code: [Select]
Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns ? ? 2955 3065 2870 560
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (100hz) 65.64 @ 1.9556Q Same as FB1 11.590k @ 11.807Q 14.463k @ 12.587Q 12.681k @ 12.687Q 145.13 @ 3.3725Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (120hz) 76.63 @ 2.3330Q Same as FB1 15.734k @ 13.498Q 19.394k @ 14.159Q 17.102k @ 14.224Q 200.61 @ 3.9577Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (1khz) 2.725k @ 17.13Q Same as FB1 15.734k @ 13.499Q 734.4k @ 72.544Q 663.7k @ 74.112Q 10.73k @ 37.13Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (10khz) 350.0k @ 102.48Q Same as FB1 8.874k @ 47.535Q 9.894m @ 37.803 9.521m @ 45.445Q 282.12k @ 50.985Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (100hz) 36.53mh @ 1.9565Q Same as FB1 1523.5 mh @ 12.022Q 1802.8mh @ 12.704Q 1586.6mh @ 12.647Q 62.73mh @ 3.3692Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (120hz) 36.75mh @ 2.3322Q Same as FB1 1526.9mh @ 13.600Q 1801.9mh @ 14.242Q 1583.9mh @ 14.214Q 63.20mh @ 3.9604Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (1khz) 25.267mh @ 17.17Q Same as FB1 1376.2mh @ 75.197Q 1606.9mh @ 73.967Q 1424.1mh @ 73.764Q 46.19mh @ 38.44Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (10khz) 54.63mh @ 98.720Q Same as FB1 2.9591h @ 48.066Q 4.084H @ 39.711 3.338h @ 45.079Q 90.66mh @ 52.964Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (100hz) 55.06uf @ 0.5126Q Same as FB1 1652nf @ .0831Q 1395nf @ .0786Q 1575nf @ .0798Q 36.86uf @ .02956Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (120hz) 40.50uf @ .4296Q Same as FB1 1148nf @ .0733Q 975.5nf @ .0697Q 1099nf @ .0707Q 26.09uf @ .2524Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (1khz) 1008nf @ .0601Q Same as FB1 18.36nf @ .0137Q 15.76nf @ .0137Q 17.70nf @ .0139Q 547.2nf @ .0260Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (10khz) 4.677nf @ .0099Q Same as FB1 85.36pf @ .0233Q 62.29pf @ .0270Q 74.03pf @ .0269Q 2.762nf @ .0208Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (fluke) 11.3 11.3 72.6 76.7 70.5 10.5

looks like we need even lower perm... :) but this should let us have some fun play time...

Blessings! ~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 31st, 2012, 03:47 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 31st, 2012, 12:12 AM
and the data is in... man that's a lot of work! lol

Code: [Select]

Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns ? ? 2955 3065 2870 560
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (100hz) 65.64 @ 1.9556Q Same as FB1 11.590k @ 11.807Q 14.463k @ 12.587Q 12.681k @ 12.687Q 145.13 @ 3.3725Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (120hz) 76.63 @ 2.3330Q Same as FB1 15.734k @ 13.498Q 19.394k @ 14.159Q 17.102k @ 14.224Q 200.61 @ 3.9577Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (1khz) 2.725k @ 17.13Q Same as FB1 15.734k @ 13.499Q 734.4k @ 72.544Q 663.7k @ 74.112Q 10.73k @ 37.13Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (10khz) 350.0k @ 102.48Q Same as FB1 8.874k @ 47.535Q 9.894m @ 37.803 9.521m @ 45.445Q 282.12k @ 50.985Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (100hz) 36.53mh @ 1.9565Q Same as FB1 1523.5 mh @ 12.022Q 1802.8mh @ 12.704Q 1586.6mh @ 12.647Q 62.73mh @ 3.3692Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (120hz) 36.75mh @ 2.3322Q Same as FB1 1526.9mh @ 13.600Q 1801.9mh @ 14.242Q 1583.9mh @ 14.214Q 63.20mh @ 3.9604Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (1khz) 25.267mh @ 17.17Q Same as FB1 1376.2mh @ 75.197Q 1606.9mh @ 73.967Q 1424.1mh @ 73.764Q 46.19mh @ 38.44Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (10khz) 54.63mh @ 98.720Q Same as FB1 2.9591h @ 48.066Q 4.084H @ 39.711 3.338h @ 45.079Q 90.66mh @ 52.964Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (100hz) 55.06uf @ 0.5126Q Same as FB1 1652nf @ .0831Q 1395nf @ .0786Q 1575nf @ .0798Q 36.86uf @ .02956Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (120hz) 40.50uf @ .4296Q Same as FB1 1148nf @ .0733Q 975.5nf @ .0697Q 1099nf @ .0707Q 26.09uf @ .2524Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (1khz) 1008nf @ .0601Q Same as FB1 18.36nf @ .0137Q 15.76nf @ .0137Q 17.70nf @ .0139Q 547.2nf @ .0260Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (10khz) 4.677nf @ .0099Q Same as FB1 85.36pf @ .0233Q 62.29pf @ .0270Q 74.03pf @ .0269Q 2.762nf @ .0208Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (fluke) 11.3 11.3 72.6 76.7 70.5 10.5


looks like we need even lower perm... :) but this should let us have some fun play time...

Blessings! ~Russ
Hi,

Looking good, we almost got the right values!!!

NOTE. You say the core MN67 is 1200 perm, but it is 1100 perm.
They changed the data-sheet a couple of times! (1200, 1100, 1250) http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Materials/Datasheets/MnZn/MN67%20ISO%20WEB%20DATA.pdf

First posted here by me:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3704#pid3704

Thinking about the core material:
Now we use Mn-Zn FERRITE with 1100 perm.
Getting lower perm is changing from Mn-Zn FERRITE to Ni-Zn FERRITE.
Using lower than 1100 perm to get the measurements correct, take for example CN20 Ni-Zn FERRITE 925 perm. Or http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Materials/Datasheets/NiZn/CMD10.pdf

Looking at temperature curve, perm is also not stable but lower than 1000 (-50 to 100 degrees Celsius)

Thoughts?

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 31st, 2012, 04:00 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 31st, 2012, 03:47 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 31st, 2012, 12:12 AM
and the data is in... man that's a lot of work! lol

Code: [Select]

Column1 Feedback 1 Feed back 2 Secondary Choke 1 Choke 2 Primary
wire size 30 30 30 30 30 30
number turns ? ? 2955 3065 2870 560
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (100hz) 65.64 @ 1.9556Q Same as FB1 11.590k @ 11.807Q 14.463k @ 12.587Q 12.681k @ 12.687Q 145.13 @ 3.3725Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (120hz) 76.63 @ 2.3330Q Same as FB1 15.734k @ 13.498Q 19.394k @ 14.159Q 17.102k @ 14.224Q 200.61 @ 3.9577Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (1khz) 2.725k @ 17.13Q Same as FB1 15.734k @ 13.499Q 734.4k @ 72.544Q 663.7k @ 74.112Q 10.73k @ 37.13Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (10khz) 350.0k @ 102.48Q Same as FB1 8.874k @ 47.535Q 9.894m @ 37.803 9.521m @ 45.445Q 282.12k @ 50.985Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (100hz) 36.53mh @ 1.9565Q Same as FB1 1523.5 mh @ 12.022Q 1802.8mh @ 12.704Q 1586.6mh @ 12.647Q 62.73mh @ 3.3692Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (120hz) 36.75mh @ 2.3322Q Same as FB1 1526.9mh @ 13.600Q 1801.9mh @ 14.242Q 1583.9mh @ 14.214Q 63.20mh @ 3.9604Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (1khz) 25.267mh @ 17.17Q Same as FB1 1376.2mh @ 75.197Q 1606.9mh @ 73.967Q 1424.1mh @ 73.764Q 46.19mh @ 38.44Q
inductance on mn67 1200u (10khz) 54.63mh @ 98.720Q Same as FB1 2.9591h @ 48.066Q 4.084H @ 39.711 3.338h @ 45.079Q 90.66mh @ 52.964Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (100hz) 55.06uf @ 0.5126Q Same as FB1 1652nf @ .0831Q 1395nf @ .0786Q 1575nf @ .0798Q 36.86uf @ .02956Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (120hz) 40.50uf @ .4296Q Same as FB1 1148nf @ .0733Q 975.5nf @ .0697Q 1099nf @ .0707Q 26.09uf @ .2524Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (1khz) 1008nf @ .0601Q Same as FB1 18.36nf @ .0137Q 15.76nf @ .0137Q 17.70nf @ .0139Q 547.2nf @ .0260Q
capacitance on mn67 1200u (10khz) 4.677nf @ .0099Q Same as FB1 85.36pf @ .0233Q 62.29pf @ .0270Q 74.03pf @ .0269Q 2.762nf @ .0208Q
wire resantce on mn67 1200u (fluke) 11.3 11.3 72.6 76.7 70.5 10.5


looks like we need even lower perm... :) but this should let us have some fun play time...

Blessings! ~Russ
Hi,

Looking good, we almost got the right values!!!

NOTE. You say the core MN67 is 1200 perm, but it is 1100 perm.
They changed the data-sheet a couple of times! (1200, 1100, 1250) http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Materials/Datasheets/MnZn/MN67%20ISO%20WEB%20DATA.pdf

First posted here by me:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3704#pid3704

Thinking about the core material:
Now we use Mn-Zn FERRITE with 1100 perm.
Getting lower perm is changing from Mn-Zn FERRITE to Ni-Zn FERRITE.
Using lower than 1100 perm to get the measurements correct, take for example CN20 Ni-Zn FERRITE 925 perm. Or http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Materials/Datasheets/NiZn/CMD10.pdf

Looking at temperature curve, perm is also not stable but lower than 1000 (-50 to 100 degrees Celsius)

Thoughts?

Br,
Webmug
well we went from 2000 to 1100 and i'm thinking 900-800 or something...

i think we need to test these and try to find a company that can supply us with a smaller order!?!?

just some thoughts. lets test and see where we come up... i think we can make these work if there going to... these will show some signs of proof...

Blessings!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 31st, 2012, 04:47 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 31st, 2012, 04:00 AM
well we went from 2000 to 1100 and i'm thinking 900-800 or something...

i think we need to test these and try to find a company that can supply us with a smaller order!?!?

just some thoughts. lets test and see where we come up... i think we can make these work if there going to... these will show some signs of proof...

Blessings!

~Russ
Hi,

Yes, test this core first. We can all learn a lot from this setup... ! :cool:
(Waiting on the core etc.) :)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 31st, 2012, 10:31 AM
I have been looking at ferrite 43 for some time.
It has an initial Iu of 850.
More research has to be done before purchasing the material though.

I think this coil is really going to be a challenge to get working properly.

In the mean time I hope all will share their findings so we can have a clearer understanding of the circuit.

The more that is discussed and shared, the more we will learn.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on May 31st, 2012, 10:32 AM
Quote from firepinto on May 30th, 2012, 09:31 PM
Quote
Nice on NATE
well done,

can you post file if ready on that as like to
see measurements and get people playing in 3d and making

I have router guy for this one ready

Daniel
I still have to start the cover, my "day" job keeps eating up my "OS" job time! lol  Might have time tomorrow.:cool:  I will eventually add the wire fittings too, still looking for something that fits the 2 hole pattern inside of the box.  I'm thinking of some kind of 2 screw terminal strip with mounting holes on each end.  Possibly a black plastic PCB style phillips screw terminal, I just cant find what im thinking of.  The holes are for 6-32 screws.



Nate
I found out what the name is for the terminal strips I was thinking of.  "barrier terminals"  I think this may be what stan used inside the box to the splice the high voltage wire to the coil:
http://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0387007312_TERMINAL_BLOCKS.xml

The hole spacing is very close and the barriers between the terminals makes sense for blocking arcs.  

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on May 31st, 2012, 10:50 AM
Quote from firepinto on May 31st, 2012, 10:32 AM
Quote from firepinto on May 30th, 2012, 09:31 PM
Quote
Nice on NATE
well done,

can you post file if ready on that as like to
see measurements and get people playing in 3d and making

I have router guy for this one ready

Daniel
I still have to start the cover, my "day" job keeps eating up my "OS" job time! lol  Might have time tomorrow.:cool:  I will eventually add the wire fittings too, still looking for something that fits the 2 hole pattern inside of the box.  I'm thinking of some kind of 2 screw terminal strip with mounting holes on each end.  Possibly a black plastic PCB style phillips screw terminal, I just cant find what im thinking of.  The holes are for 6-32 screws.



Nate
I found out what the name is for the terminal strips I was thinking of.  "barrier terminals"  I think this may be what stan used inside the box to the splice the high voltage wire to the coil:
http://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0387007312_TERMINAL_BLOCKS.xml

The hole spacing is very close and the barriers between the terminals makes sense for blocking arcs.  

Nate
I have some of these.:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on May 31st, 2012, 05:00 PM
OK

I have calculated more on the 5 coil VIC I have constructed:

Each coil has a very narrow bandwidth and a high Q factor. What this may mean is that these coils will act as bandpass filters. A square wave can be Fourier decomposed into an infinite number of sine waves at different amplitudes. When you try to pass a square wave through a bandpass filter the filter will only allow certain frequencies to pass through it. What this means is that the square wave will not pass through the coils and the result would be a number of different possible waveforms at the capacitor which will change with frequency. The bandwidth can be increased by adding resistance internally to the coil (higher resistance coil).

I am not sure if the high Q coils will have much of an effect on the overall circuit at the resonant freq, more testing will follow.

Primary Q 1033 Bandwidth 58
Feedback Q 273 Bandwidth 73
Secondary Q 884 Bandwidth 11
Choke L1 Q 2917 Bandwidth 15
Choke 2 Q 911 Bandwidth 14

Also, I am thinking the capacitance of the secondary is coupling to the L1 Choke and the smaller capacitance primary coil is coupling to the L2 choke which may be why it has such a high resonant frequency when compared to the other coils. I still wonder if there was a glitch or I made a mistake with that coil, but after several tries the Fres remained at 44kHz.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on May 31st, 2012, 11:08 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on May 31st, 2012, 10:31 AM
I have been looking at ferrite 43 for some time.
It has an initial Iu of 850.
More research has to be done before purchasing the material though.

I think this coil is really going to be a challenge to get working properly.

In the mean time I hope all will share their findings so we can have a clearer understanding of the circuit.

The more that is discussed and shared, the more we will learn.
I agree with all you are saying here!

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on June 1st, 2012, 12:37 PM
Guys,I want to place an order for cooper wire for the vic bobins,can you tell me the diameter in mm because there are many gauge tables and verry confusing,from the pics I think is 0,35..waiting for reply,Br
 Ady
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 1st, 2012, 02:35 PM
Adys15

It's 30awg heavy insulated wire which is about .0113- .0115' with the coating. Bare 30awg is .0099- .0100".
Convert to mm and you get .251-.254mm bare.
With the coating you should be around .269-.302mm.

Be sure you get the heavy coating, not the single build.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: FloatyBoaty on June 1st, 2012, 05:33 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 12:26 PM
Quote from FloatyBoaty on May 12th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Hi Jeff,
Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.
But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D
Br,
Webmug
I wonder if floaty boaty could help with this, he is really good with software. He could possibly even just write a program to control the speed and count the turns [opto] as it's winding, maybe even run a display for speed and count. To do the count we could use one end of the square bobbin to pass through the opto as it turns, make the opto adjustable for different size bobbins, as well, that would really be cool.:D:cool::P
No problem.  Looking into it now.  :D
Thanks Johnathan:D
Small note: "Jonathan" not "Johnathan". :P

So here it is.  Sorry for the wait - learning all about stepper motors and what-not at the same time, plus that ecs for Russ's hho engine test (how's that going?  it could be used for the WFC project as well).

Simple configuration: one motor to spin the spindle, and one stepper to feed the wire; no stepper driver needed (maybe relays).  Check the "config.h" for configuration.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on June 1st, 2012, 09:47 PM
Quote from FloatyBoaty on June 1st, 2012, 05:33 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 12:26 PM
Quote from FloatyBoaty on May 12th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on May 12th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Quote from Webmug on May 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Hi Jeff,
Firmware is for ATmega644P, this version wouldn't work for a ATmega328p controller. But if you can find/make software for ATMEGA running a Pololu A4988 Stepper Driver, let me know. Got also a ATmega328p board.
But I needed a "simple" DIY winder configuration so a got this as a result. Can be much simpler :D without the RepRap functions embedded in the firmware etc. :D
Br,
Webmug
I wonder if floaty boaty could help with this, he is really good with software. He could possibly even just write a program to control the speed and count the turns [opto] as it's winding, maybe even run a display for speed and count. To do the count we could use one end of the square bobbin to pass through the opto as it turns, make the opto adjustable for different size bobbins, as well, that would really be cool.:D:cool::P
No problem.  Looking into it now.  :D
Thanks Johnathan:D
Small note: "Jonathan" not "Johnathan". :P

So here it is.  Sorry for the wait - learning all about stepper motors and what-not at the same time, plus that ecs for Russ's hho engine test (how's that going?  it could be used for the WFC project as well).

Simple configuration: one motor to spin the spindle, and one stepper to feed the wire; no stepper driver needed (maybe relays).  Check the "config.h" for configuration.
Cool Jonathan,:cool:  I will check it out, thanks so much, Jeff.:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: FloatyBoaty on June 1st, 2012, 09:56 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on June 1st, 2012, 09:47 PM
Quote from FloatyBoaty on June 1st, 2012, 05:33 PM
So here it is.  Sorry for the wait - learning all about stepper motors and what-not at the same time, plus that ecs for Russ's hho engine test (how's that going?  it could be used for the WFC project as well).

Simple configuration: one motor to spin the spindle, and one stepper to feed the wire; no stepper driver needed (maybe relays).  Check the "config.h" for configuration.
Cool Jonathan,:cool:  I will check it out, thanks so much, Jeff.:D
Cool.  Let me know if you have any questions about any of code.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on June 1st, 2012, 11:45 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 1st, 2012, 02:35 PM
Adys15

It's 30awg heavy insulated wire which is about .0113- .0115' with the coating. Bare 30awg is .0099- .0100".
Convert to mm and you get .251-.254mm bare.
With the coating you should be around .269-.302mm.

Be sure you get the heavy coating, not the single build.
Thanks HMS-776 ,I see ,I was confused because 30awg looks very thin and in the pics looks much thicker,I even measured the picture wire with a measuring tool and give me 0,35, 0,33...
Ah,and one more thing look at one of the pics where the wires ends  are hanging ,look at the solder end,looks to me that is no special insulation ,and is still 0,35...I may be wrong..
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 2nd, 2012, 04:32 PM
The sizes I said before are all right. I got them off of the MWSwire.com
They are in inches but that's easy to convert.


[/quote]Thanks HMS-776 ,I see ,I was confused because 30awg looks very thin and in the pics looks much thicker,I even measured the picture wire with a measuring tool and give me 0,35, 0,33...
Ah,and one more thing look at one of the pics where the wires ends  are hanging ,look at the solder end,looks to me that is no special insulation ,and is still 0,35...I may be wrong..[/quote]The sizes I mentioned above are right. I got them off MWSwire.com and then just converted to mm.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 2nd, 2012, 08:24 PM
adys15,

The numbers I gave you above are correct. I got them from mwswire.com. They are in inches but easy to convert to mm.

Everyone,

Today I began testing the VIC and WFC. Using Tony W's VIC driver circuit (globalkast.com), a 5 coil VIC with 1100-1200 Iu cores and a 3 inch coaxial cell with distilled water. Testing this circuit makes me realize there are several design issues that were part of the original design. The circuit in itself is a decent design, it's the VIC and Cell that create the issues. The capacitor it too large, and the chokes are too small...The circuit has a specific resonant frequency which is very difficult to find, and that frequency expands over a wide range due to the large size of the capacitor and the small chokes. I can see that this setup was never meant for mass production.

I got 6.5V max across the cell but never produced any gas....Tonight was just to get familiar with everything and make sure the circuit worked correctly...I will be connecting a function generator up soon to find the actual resonance....That should get me closer than just turning knobs:)
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on June 3rd, 2012, 12:24 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 2nd, 2012, 08:24 PM
adys15,

The numbers I gave you above are correct. I got them from mwswire.com. They are in inches but easy to convert to mm.

Everyone,

Today I began testing the VIC and WFC. Using Tony W's VIC driver circuit (globalkast.com), a 5 coil VIC with 1100-1200 Iu cores and a 3 inch coaxial cell with distilled water. Testing this circuit makes me realize there are several design issues that were part of the original design. The circuit in itself is a decent design, it's the VIC and Cell that create the issues. The capacitor it too large, and the chokes are too small...The circuit has a specific resonant frequency which is very difficult to find, and that frequency expands over a wide range due to the large size of the capacitor and the small chokes. I can see that this setup was never meant for mass production.

I got 6.5V max across the cell but never produced any gas....Tonight was just to get familiar with everything and make sure the circuit worked correctly...I will be connecting a function generator up soon to find the actual resonance....That should get me closer than just turning knobs:)
nice work!

with the same setup i was able to get 1000v wit no cell and about 10.5 v with the cell. also no gas...

just an update on my findings.

but i did make theses! :)

this is acetal delrin and man i think i like this plastic a lot!

i thought it was not as durable but its as strong or stronger than UHMS and much better to work with... but you get what you pay for also...

hey! look at that! a real replica... lol the first 13 bobbin cavity iv ever seen replicated... ;) lol yeah yeah there not done but mostly...

[attachment=1630]
[attachment=1631]
[attachment=1632]
[attachment=1633]
[attachment=1634]
[attachment=1635]
[attachment=1636]

lets see where this takes us... :)

there a lot Smaller that the ones in the drawings i had from don... ?? but it looks like they fit the cores he sent me... hummm... interesting...

blessings! ~Russ

ps. thanks to Chris and donations for the plastic!!!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on June 3rd, 2012, 05:28 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on June 3rd, 2012, 12:24 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 2nd, 2012, 08:24 PM
adys15,

The numbers I gave you above are correct. I got them from mwswire.com. They are in inches but easy to convert to mm.

Everyone,

Today I began testing the VIC and WFC. Using Tony W's VIC driver circuit (globalkast.com), a 5 coil VIC with 1100-1200 Iu cores and a 3 inch coaxial cell with distilled water. Testing this circuit makes me realize there are several design issues that were part of the original design. The circuit in itself is a decent design, it's the VIC and Cell that create the issues. The capacitor it too large, and the chokes are too small...The circuit has a specific resonant frequency which is very difficult to find, and that frequency expands over a wide range due to the large size of the capacitor and the small chokes. I can see that this setup was never meant for mass production.

I got 6.5V max across the cell but never produced any gas....Tonight was just to get familiar with everything and make sure the circuit worked correctly...I will be connecting a function generator up soon to find the actual resonance....That should get me closer than just turning knobs:)
nice work!

with the same setup i was able to get 1000v wit no cell and about 10.5 v with the cell. also no gas...

just an update on my findings.

but i did make theses! :)

this is acetal delrin and man i think i like this plastic a lot!

i thought it was not as durable but its as strong or stronger than UHMS and much better to work with... but you get what you pay for also...

hey! look at that! a real replica... lol the first 13 bobbin cavity iv ever seen replicated... ;) lol yeah yeah there not done but mostly...

They look good Russ, good job.:D







lets see where this takes us... :)

there a lot Smaller that the ones in the drawings i had from don... ?? but it looks like they fit the cores he sent me... hummm... interesting...

blessings! ~Russ

ps. thanks to Chris and donations for the plastic!!!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on June 3rd, 2012, 06:20 AM
Nice job Russ!  They do look a lot shorter than Don's version.  Have ya got any ideas for cutting the .75 square hole yet?  


Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on June 4th, 2012, 03:17 AM
Quote from firepinto on June 3rd, 2012, 06:20 AM
Nice job Russ!  They do look a lot shorter than Don's version.  Have ya got any ideas for cutting the .75 square hole yet?  


Nate
i kinda posted this on the wrong thread... lets try this one:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=119&pid=5652#pid5652

reply there

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 4th, 2012, 05:36 PM
Ok, So I have done more testing with the 5 coil VIC, still have not been able to find resonance.

The driver circuit locks onto multiple frequencies which tends to be a problem.

I also connected a frequency generator and an oscope to the L1 choke and cell and an added resistor to look for resonance.
With a typical RLC circuit resonance is very easy to find as the voltage across R increases or decreases depending on how close to resonance you are. When you find the peak voltage across R your at resonance.

With the VIC circuit the voltage across R remained constant no matter what frequency I tested at...... I was testing at 500Hz intervals. In the next few tests I will try more frequencies and see if I can find resonance. As usual, the search for resonance continues!

____________________Update

Just running some numbers on my 5 coil VIC.

Primary resistance is 230 Ohms. Doing the math I get 52mA primary current for a total power of 626mW.
Primary to secondary step up ratio is about 1:16.4 so secondary voltage is about 196V and secondary max current is 3mA.
All secondary coils connected series aiding come to 4.5H of inductance.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on June 5th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 4th, 2012, 05:36 PM
Ok, So I have done more testing with the 5 coil VIC, still have not been able to find resonance.

The driver circuit locks onto multiple frequencies which tends to be a problem.

I also connected a frequency generator and an oscope to the L1 choke and cell and an added resistor to look for resonance.
With a typical RLC circuit resonance is very easy to find as the voltage across R increases or decreases depending on how close to resonance you are. When you find the peak voltage across R your at resonance.

With the VIC circuit the voltage across R remained constant no matter what frequency I tested at...... I was testing at 500Hz intervals. In the next few tests I will try more frequencies and see if I can find resonance. As usual, the search for resonance continues!

____________________Update

Just running some numbers on my 5 coil VIC.

Primary resistance is 230 Ohms. Doing the math I get 52mA primary current for a total power of 626mW.
Primary to secondary step up ratio is about 1:16.4 so secondary voltage is about 196V and secondary max current is 3mA.
All secondary coils connected series aiding come to 4.5H of inductance.
My experiments have shown that in a pancake bobbin coil there are many different voltage curve patterns and they change on the slightest changes in frequency or duty cycle. freq. change of 1 hz can make a major change in voltage patterns over the cell. adding an eec to the circuit makes another major change.

so my advise is to start the search without locking but take the production and the amount of negative voltage spikes over the cell into account for the search for optimization.

then - in a second step - when the optimum pattern is found this pattern must be implemented into lock in mechanism.

it´s a good idea to make photos of your patterns and note frequencies and duty cycles and to post it in the thread. as soon as others have set up their circuits they can do the same. one step into making results comparable.

Btw good job on the bandwidth filter discussion earlier in this thread!

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 5th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the kind remarks bussi04;)

After the first few tests I agree with you about how to go about testing the circuit. One problem I am having is that I never know what frequency I am at because of the pulse and gate frequencies riding together cause the freq counter on my USB oscope to read incorrectly. I will make more modifications soon, adding more test points so I know what my 2 frequencies are. I think this will help tremendously in finding the right freq range.

I will say one thing, I believe the cores we special ordered will work in this setup. It's tuning it that's the issue.

_________________
Update,

I looked at the VIC driver circuit trying to find points I could measure the driving frequency from. Probed them using an oscilloscope and the gating signal still shows up. I even pulled the signal directly off of the 4046 but the gating signal is input to it so no suprise there.....Still trying to find out where I can add a test point to measure actual driving frequency (not including gating).[attachment=1691]

If anyone has any ideas as to what I can do please let me know.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on June 6th, 2012, 12:15 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 5th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the kind remarks bussi04;)

After the first few tests I agree with you about how to go about testing the circuit. One problem I am having is that I never know what frequency I am at because of the pulse and gate frequencies riding together cause the freq counter on my USB oscope to read incorrectly. I will make more modifications soon, adding more test points so I know what my 2 frequencies are. I think this will help tremendously in finding the right freq range.

I will say one thing, I believe the cores we special ordered will work in this setup. It's tuning it that's the issue.

_________________
Update,

I looked at the VIC driver circuit trying to find points I could measure the driving frequency from. Probed them using an oscilloscope and the gating signal still shows up. I even pulled the signal directly off of the 4046 but the gating signal is input to it so no suprise there.....Still trying to find out where I can add a test point to measure actual driving frequency (not including gating).

If anyone has any ideas as to what I can do please let me know.
yeah with gating on its hard...

you should be able to diss connect the incoming gating and connect it to a postie voltage and then measure where the blue arrow is for the outgoing frequency. ..

like this:

[attachment=1692]

i also agree that the cores will work just fine its just a tuning thing... :)

~Russ


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on June 6th, 2012, 01:55 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 5th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the kind remarks bussi04;)

After the first few tests I agree with you about how to go about testing the circuit. One problem I am having is that I never know what frequency I am at because of the pulse and gate frequencies riding together cause the freq counter on my USB oscope to read incorrectly. I will make more modifications soon, adding more test points so I know what my 2 frequencies are. I think this will help tremendously in finding the right freq range.

I will say one thing, I believe the cores we special ordered will work in this setup. It's tuning it that's the issue.

_________________
Update,

I looked at the VIC driver circuit trying to find points I could measure the driving frequency from. Probed them using an oscilloscope and the gating signal still shows up. I even pulled the signal directly off of the 4046 but the gating signal is input to it so no suprise there.....Still trying to find out where I can add a test point to measure actual driving frequency (not including gating).

If anyone has any ideas as to what I can do please let me know.
Try to measure frequency between pin 6 and 7 of 4046 over the oscillating capacitor. maybe the oscillation continues while pin 3 influences the oscillation output of 4046. of course this measurement will increase the capacitance and that way decrease oscillation frequency  but that should be acceptable for overall operation.

as an alternative you can set a scope trigger on the  "gate inactive" event and then you get the frequency on your scope.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on June 7th, 2012, 03:34 PM
I have made clarifications to the data I have posted in this thread. Please read the edited post here (#300):

http://open-source-energy.org?mode=threaded&tid=170&pid=5451#pid5451
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on June 8th, 2012, 08:49 AM
Quote from bussi04 on June 6th, 2012, 01:55 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 5th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the kind remarks bussi04;)

After the first few tests I agree with you about how to go about testing the circuit. One problem I am having is that I never know what frequency I am at because of the pulse and gate frequencies riding together cause the freq counter on my USB oscope to read incorrectly. I will make more modifications soon, adding more test points so I know what my 2 frequencies are. I think this will help tremendously in finding the right freq range.

I will say one thing, I believe the cores we special ordered will work in this setup. It's tuning it that's the issue.

_________________
Update,

I looked at the VIC driver circuit trying to find points I could measure the driving frequency from. Probed them using an oscilloscope and the gating signal still shows up. I even pulled the signal directly off of the 4046 but the gating signal is input to it so no suprise there.....Still trying to find out where I can add a test point to measure actual driving frequency (not including gating).

If anyone has any ideas as to what I can do please let me know.
Try to measure frequency between pin 6 and 7 of 4046 over the oscillating capacitor. maybe the oscillation continues while pin 3 influences the oscillation output of 4046. of course this measurement will increase the capacitance and that way decrease oscillation frequency  but that should be acceptable for overall operation.

as an alternative you can set a scope trigger on the  "gate inactive" event and then you get the frequency on your scope.
method to measure the frequency continuously:
in the same diagram, posted by Russ, short-circuit the collector "Q11" to ground (test point), this enables the "4046" without the gate.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on June 12th, 2012, 01:25 PM
just fyi screen captures from Russ's video, for those right clicking and saving  these pages to preserve them. An or consolidating data into rebuild manuals to teach others

PLease all dedicate some time to save all data on forums  make time
 to do the above , to share adavnces better and faster through other mediums.

Dan

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on June 13th, 2012, 03:53 AM
Quote from securesupplies on June 12th, 2012, 01:25 PM
just fyi screen captures from Russ's video, for those right clicking and saving  these pages to preserve them. An or consolidating data into rebuild manuals to teach others

PLease all dedicate some time to save all data on forums  make time
 to do the above , to share adavnces better and faster through other mediums.

Dan
Good post dan, here is the video he captured the photos from! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ySvSe5avM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thanks! ~Russ

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on June 22nd, 2012, 10:04 AM
Hy guys! I'v done some experiments today with the vic transformer made by me,(0.2mm)primary 400turns,secoundary 7000 turns,feedback 400turns,choke coils 1500/1500 and gues what the voltage was from 12v input>?130v,without the cell atached ,and with the cell 1V,the water is oposing too much,think about,to have let's say 1000 at the cell, you have to produce 100KV without the load.so I think Stanley's vic's are not HV at all,you cannot get 20KV from his specs,or if you do the water opeses and you get rufly 50V on the cell....corect me if I am wrong!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on June 23rd, 2012, 08:27 AM
Quote from adys15 on June 22nd, 2012, 10:04 AM
Hy guys! I'v done some experiments today with the vic transformer made by me,(0.2mm)primary 400turns,secoundary 7000 turns,feedback 400turns,choke coils 1500/1500 and gues what the voltage was from 12v input>?130v,without the cell atached ,and with the cell 1V,the water is oposing too much,think about,to have let's say 1000 at the cell, you have to produce 100KV without the load.so I think Stanley's vic's are not HV at all,you cannot get 20KV from his specs,or if you do the water opeses and you get rufly 50V on the cell....corect me if I am wrong!
Hi Adys.
I was also disappointed with my VIC (made following the specs), but fantasy was expecting something different, because the turns ratio, should we now know that it would not be much. Another point, the resistance of the winding is very high, therefore if some current flowing useful, there will be a waste. The point is that we hope will not use and this is impossible, because without the power chokes do not work.
I have not given up making it work, so I use what makes sense.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on June 24th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Quote from Faisca on June 23rd, 2012, 08:27 AM
Quote from adys15 on June 22nd, 2012, 10:04 AM
Hy guys! I'v done some experiments today with the vic transformer made by me,(0.2mm)primary 400turns,secoundary 7000 turns,feedback 400turns,choke coils 1500/1500 and gues what the voltage was from 12v input>?130v,without the cell atached ,and with the cell 1V,the water is oposing too much,think about,to have let's say 1000 at the cell, you have to produce 100KV without the load.so I think Stanley's vic's are not HV at all,you cannot get 20KV from his specs,or if you do the water opeses and you get rufly 50V on the cell....corect me if I am wrong!
Hi Adys.
I was also disappointed with my VIC (made following the specs), but fantasy was expecting something different, because the turns ratio, should we now know that it would not be much. Another point, the resistance of the winding is very high, therefore if some current flowing useful, there will be a waste. The point is that we hope will not use and this is impossible, because without the power chokes do not work.
I have not given up making it work, so I use what makes sense.
yes you are right about the power,but power means you have to wind thicker wire,to resist,i made an experiment and wire the primary with 0.8mm 20 turns,and the output voltage goes to 230v from 130(with the thin wire on primary)but when i hook it to the cell it dies 0.00v,i told you guys you have ho have a thicker wire than 30awg ,30awg does not have the power to keep that voltage up,think about the chokes used on the demo unit by stan....18gauge on the bifiliar chokes,wy?because they have to have a little amperage stored in order to hit resonance,then the amps will go down,like Stan says,because of the pulsing operations the amps are slower than volts so when there is 1 pulse with a little amperage you cut it off till the amps show up...i dont think you understand,Tesla did the same with the pulsed dc...

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Breakzeitgeist on June 24th, 2012, 06:04 AM
Please see parametric resonance Hope it helps
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 24th, 2012, 11:21 AM
I am on the same page with this VIC.

The turns ratio should give me approx 190V at the cell. But I get no more than 2V at the cell (even with no primary R) and 40V when the circuit is open.

I think there may be an issue with the way this coil was designed. FIrst off it uses two cores held together with plastic and screws. (in a car the vibration would change the coils characteristics). Then there is the fact that the coil layout does not give maximum coupling, some of the coils have an uneven coupling when they should not. (The coils should really be wound on top of each other (chokes bifilar) and on a single core to get maximum coupling).

I'm trying to understand the way this coils voltage regulation is supposed to work.
From Stan's explanations maximum voltage is achieved only when the impedance is matched. However I still think I should be getting more than 40V with the secondary coils open:(

I am going to be removing turns from the primary and feedback coils to increase the turns ratio up to get about 280V.

I am also going to try using a simplier design.

What do you gys think???

Has anyone had any luck with this coil yet?



Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Amsy on June 24th, 2012, 12:37 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 24th, 2012, 11:21 AM
I am on the same page with this VIC.

The turns ratio should give me approx 190V at the cell. But I get no more than 2V at the cell (even with no primary R) and 40V when the circuit is open.

I think there may be an issue with the way this coil was designed. FIrst off it uses two cores held together with plastic and screws. (in a car the vibration would change the coils characteristics). Then there is the fact that the coil layout does not give maximum coupling, some of the coils have an uneven coupling when they should not. (The coils should really be wound on top of each other (chokes bifilar) and on a single core to get maximum coupling).

I'm trying to understand the way this coils voltage regulation is supposed to work.
From Stan's explanations maximum voltage is achieved only when the impedance is matched. However I still think I should be getting more than 40V with the secondary coils open:(

I am going to be removing turns from the primary and feedback coils to increase the turns ratio up to get about 280V.

I am also going to try using a simplier design.

What do you gys think???

Has anyone had any luck with this coil yet?
Hi,

which voltage did you have over the secondary charging choke?
How much current was flowing to the wfc at the 2Volts?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on June 24th, 2012, 01:56 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 24th, 2012, 11:21 AM
I am on the same page with this VIC.

The turns ratio should give me approx 190V at the cell. But I get no more than 2V at the cell (even with no primary R) and 40V when the circuit is open.

I think there may be an issue with the way this coil was designed. FIrst off it uses two cores held together with plastic and screws. (in a car the vibration would change the coils characteristics). Then there is the fact that the coil layout does not give maximum coupling, some of the coils have an uneven coupling when they should not. (The coils should really be wound on top of each other (chokes bifilar) and on a single core to get maximum coupling).

I'm trying to understand the way this coils voltage regulation is supposed to work.
From Stan's explanations maximum voltage is achieved only when the impedance is matched. However I still think I should be getting more than 40V with the secondary coils open:(

I am going to be removing turns from the primary and feedback coils to increase the turns ratio up to get about 280V.

I am also going to try using a simplier design.

What do you gys think???

Has anyone had any luck with this coil yet?
can you give some specs?number of turns etc,190v at the chokes?without the cell atached?and about the chokes sec and primary on top of eachother yes i think so too,John Able hit resonance with this setup,Russ tell's in one of it;s videos that he cannot get hv with 5coil vic,but with the injector tipe transformer all in one bobin he can get hv.Now getting hv is one isue but the biggest isue is when you hook it to the cel you get 1,2,3v ...all its remain is to test different gauge wire...ps:you guys have an yahoo group?here is taking verry long to comunicate...is like sending letters to anothet country:D..keep on the good work ,Ady
Quote from HMS-776 on June 24th, 2012, 11:21 AM
I am on the same page with this VIC.

The turns ratio should give me approx 190V at the cell. But I get no more than 2V at the cell (even with no primary R) and 40V when the circuit is open.

I think there may be an issue with the way this coil was designed. FIrst off it uses two cores held together with plastic and screws. (in a car the vibration would change the coils characteristics). Then there is the fact that the coil layout does not give maximum coupling, some of the coils have an uneven coupling when they should not. (The coils should really be wound on top of each other (chokes bifilar) and on a single core to get maximum coupling).

I'm trying to understand the way this coils voltage regulation is supposed to work.
From Stan's explanations maximum voltage is achieved only when the impedance is matched. However I still think I should be getting more than 40V with the secondary coils open:(

I am going to be removing turns from the primary and feedback coils to increase the turns ratio up to get about 280V.

I am also going to try using a simplier design.

What do you gys think???

Has anyone had any luck with this coil yet?
can you give some specs?nr of windings wire gauge etc...you get 190v without the cell conected?You are right about the all in one bobins,i think the same,also Russ tells about that he cannot get hv with wfc vic.gut with the injector vic it does...lots of testing to do....keep the good work.Ady
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 30th, 2012, 03:50 PM
Hello everyone,

If anyone is interested in buying my VIC bobbins with wire wound on them (close to Stan's specs) I am selling the first set. I have 3 sets so I am going to try different winding configurations on the other two. Rather than remove the wire from the bobbin I am offering it here for anyone looking for a VIC already wound. The VIC is very close to original specs and I am including an untrafast 600V diode. Please note I am not including a core as I plan on doing further testing.

I will sell the bobbins and end caps for $65 OBO including shipping to the US.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on July 6th, 2012, 03:19 PM
I have tried diferent thinghs today...i pulsed a flyback with 9xa circuit,i coud not measure the voltage,but arched prety good,i hooked up 2 chokes 29 awg 1000turns each,the ark was not so strong,but still arcs.then i hooked up to a 10cm long pipes,i tried all frequencies nothing,off corse wather resistsi thought the cap was to big....then i tooked 2 razor blades stiched them together verry close with a rubber in middle,i tried all freq and only one showed a little bubles formating around the negatige plate,and barely leting go,there must be over 2KV from that flyback,so barely nothing....the results are....if you aply hv across water capacitor it rezists and you end up with noting..so i am tired of these bolonies..with the water polarization and shet,water resists and thats all,and : VOLTAGE DO NOT PERFORM WORK,probably was a concept that meyers liked so much that he himself believed,but in real world nothing happens,Russ hook your vic coil to the water cap and tell me what you got?from 5kv- 5v i think...whatever tiret of that Meyer shet,sound very nice on paper but in real world nothing happens!!!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: geenee on July 6th, 2012, 04:15 PM
read about this link,HMS-776
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=603&page=2
somethings maybe help.
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=1954)
thanks
geenee
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on July 6th, 2012, 08:02 PM
Quote from adys15 on July 6th, 2012, 03:19 PM
I have tried diferent thinghs today...i pulsed a flyback with 9xa circuit,i coud not measure the voltage,but arched prety good,i hooked up 2 chokes 29 awg 1000turns each,the ark was not so strong,but still arcs.then i hooked up to a 10cm long pipes,i tried all frequencies nothing,off corse wather resistsi thought the cap was to big....then i tooked 2 razor blades stiched them together verry close with a rubber in middle,i tried all freq and only one showed a little bubles formating around the negatige plate,and barely leting go,there must be over 2KV from that flyback,so barely nothing....the results are....if you aply hv across water capacitor it rezists and you end up with noting..so i am tired of these bolonies..with the water polarization and shet,water resists and thats all,and : VOLTAGE DO NOT PERFORM WORK,probably was a concept that meyers liked so much that he himself believed,but in real world nothing happens,Russ hook your vic coil to the water cap and tell me what you got?from 5kv- 5v i think...whatever tiret of that Meyer shet,sound very nice on paper but in real world nothing happens!!!
Guy's, I really think the answer is in the sparkplug  the other gasses, vic and gas gun, not the cell. My one cell is 14" long 3/4" and 1" diameter 316L SS tubing. I do get hho production out of it at 12 volts dc, 1/2 amp, with the 8XA, think what I could get if I up'ed the voltage, I just don't have the time right now to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dwonCXH5EI&list=UU5MWkMsbXeqTSQGihR0is1Q&index=8&feature=plcp
  Also you still only have one aspect of what Stan built, there are many other things to Stan's devise that need attention as well, don't give up there is still much work that needs to be done, Jeff.:D  
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Amsy on July 6th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Look at the drawing of genee.

The current is canceled (nearly 0amps) in the VIC. Thats the basic achievment first IMHO.

This also can be performed with inductivities which differ to the original VIC.
You can tune the inductivity with the air gap of the VIC with it´s 2x"U" - profile core.
Do not fix on the frequencys, they are second-rate. The first priority is to cancel the ampflow on the secondary side of the vic to reach higher voltages.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on July 7th, 2012, 01:40 AM
Quote from Amsy on July 6th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Look at the drawing of genee.

The current is canceled (nearly 0amps) in the VIC. Thats the basic achievment first IMHO.

This also can be performed with inductivities which differ to the original VIC.
You can tune the inductivity with the air gap of the VIC with it´s 2x"U" - profile core.
Do not fix on the frequencys, they are second-rate. The first priority is to cancel the ampflow on the secondary side of the vic to reach higher voltages.
Common man ,what amp flow to you talk about? on a transformer of 30awg,you dont get amps,plain and simple,the wire is to thin,if you hook up a 24v headlight bulb on a 2kv flyback nothing happens,why? because it has no power to light it,put whatever voltage you want on the cell,it will cancel it out,like i explained earlier,barely few bubles ore formed on a neg side of the probe/wire if you ''electrify a water droplet..try it for yourself
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on July 7th, 2012, 11:52 PM
Quote from adys15 on July 6th, 2012, 03:19 PM
from 5kv- 5v i think...whatever tiret of that Meyer shet,sound very nice on paper but in real world nothing happens!!!
that´s not true. we got nearly 1000v in the wfc. you have to fine tune the windings and make an exact frequency scan to get those results. and you have to integrate the EEC and you will see the difference.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: geenee on July 8th, 2012, 02:10 AM
Quote from adys15 on July 7th, 2012, 01:40 AM
Quote from Amsy on July 6th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Look at the drawing of genee.

The current is canceled (nearly 0amps) in the VIC. Thats the basic achievment first IMHO.

This also can be performed with inductivities which differ to the original VIC.
You can tune the inductivity with the air gap of the VIC with it´s 2x"U" - profile core.
Do not fix on the frequencys, they are second-rate. The first priority is to cancel the ampflow on the secondary side of the vic to reach higher voltages.
Common man ,what amp flow to you talk about? on a transformer of 30awg,you dont get amps,plain and simple,the wire is to thin,if you hook up a 24v headlight bulb on a 2kv flyback nothing happens,why? because it has no power to light it,put whatever voltage you want on the cell,it will cancel it out,like i explained earlier,barely few bubles ore formed on a neg side of the probe/wire if you ''electrify a water droplet..try it for yourself
maybe,many Meyer's vic coils on his car,that connected together in parallel cause very thin and no power.
i have questions.
why resonant cavity connect tube wire in series(but more vic coils-U core and plastic solid core)?how many tube is heater resonant?
 

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on July 8th, 2012, 07:18 AM
all,

please read this:
http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Patents/Andrija%20Puharich-US4394230.pdf

dont skip around, read it in its entirety.

this is the only place i have found where some one explains the process stan understood so well.

staged A-F

if these things dont hapen in that order and in that way... we will never get it to work.

its not a coil and water cap and some pulses. ECT.

its a very very precise and orderly process that MUST happen in that order of it will not work.

***Note, that is a patent... so he is not giving you the exact  info you need to get it to work, he is giving you what you need to know to understand how to make it work... ***

basically what I'm telling you is that know one can say that something can not be done. just because you can not get it to work... that just mean's you dont understand it enough to make it work.

healthy discussion is welcome here and is encouraged as that's the way life is. things get done that way. BUT. if your here to tell others that it just dont work and its all fake... please leave or do not comment.

the work i have done dose not push me away and make me think its fake. it draws me closer and makes me try more to  understand whats really going on in stan's system.

the point of this post is to make everyone think about why there here.

this place was started to gather the same like to achieve a goal. if one dose not think the goal will be reached and can not be understanding about it please do not diss-courage others here. we are a support group for each other. again, a healthy discussion is welcome.


thanks guys for your understanding and for anyone that is going to take this message the wrong way.... sorry. got to keep this place rocking... moving forward...

we all share, we all teach, we all learn, we all win, knowledge is power. dont need money or other. a good understanding it always key.

Blessings and GOD Bless

~Russ

PS. dont hate me... lol
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: geenee on July 8th, 2012, 08:39 AM
:) lol Russ,i agree.

Don't give up.Crack the secret of Meyer.water car is real.

all reference patents from Meyer patents.that is the key.

PS.dont hate RUSS... lol

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on July 8th, 2012, 09:20 AM
Quote from geenee on July 8th, 2012, 08:39 AM
:) lol Russ,i agree.

Don't give up.Crack the secret of Meyer.water car is real.

all reference patents from Meyer patents.that is the key.

PS.dont hate RUSS... lol

thanks
geenee
You can find all refrance patents on my web site here:

All patents and info:

http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/patents-documents/

Direct link to just the refrance patents in Stan's patents:

http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Patents/Stan_Meyer_Reference_Patents.zip

Thanks!!!! Much Respect to you all guys! ;)

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Amsy on July 8th, 2012, 10:10 AM
Quote from adys15 on July 7th, 2012, 01:40 AM
Quote from Amsy on July 6th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Look at the drawing of genee.

The current is canceled (nearly 0amps) in the VIC. Thats the basic achievment first IMHO.

This also can be performed with inductivities which differ to the original VIC.
You can tune the inductivity with the air gap of the VIC with it´s 2x"U" - profile core.
Do not fix on the frequencys, they are second-rate. The first priority is to cancel the ampflow on the secondary side of the vic to reach higher voltages.
Common man ,what amp flow to you talk about? on a transformer of 30awg,you dont get amps,plain and simple,the wire is to thin,if you hook up a 24v headlight bulb on a 2kv flyback nothing happens,why? because it has no power to light it,put whatever voltage you want on the cell,it will cancel it out,like i explained earlier,barely few bubles ore formed on a neg side of the probe/wire if you ''electrify a water droplet..try it for yourself
Sorry, was a misunderstanding. My post was for HMS-776.

See your post now, I think 2kV will not be enough. Meyer patents say something about 20kV :exclamation:  Lets try higher voltages.




Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: TeaJunky on July 8th, 2012, 10:32 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 09:20 AM
Quote from geenee on July 8th, 2012, 08:39 AM
:) lol Russ,i agree.

Don't give up.Crack the secret of Meyer.water car is real.

all reference patents from Meyer patents.that is the key.

PS.dont hate RUSS... lol

thanks
geenee
You can find all refrance patents on my web site here:

All patents and info:

http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/patents-documents/

Direct link to just the refrance patents in Stan's patents:

http://open-source-energy.org/rwg42985/russ/Patents/Stan_Meyer_Reference_Patents.zip

Thanks!!!! Much Respect to you all guys! ;)

~Russ
problems are not really impossible, they are just very difficult to solve
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: haxar on July 10th, 2012, 02:37 PM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 07:18 AM
basically what I'm telling you is that know one can say that something can not be done. just because you can not get it to work... that just mean's you dont understand it enough to make it work.

healthy discussion is welcome here and is encouraged as that's the way life is. things get done that way. BUT. if your here to tell others that it just dont work and its all fake... please leave or do not comment.
Currently, nobody has a "true working replication" of Stan's work, specifically the VIC circuit, as far as I know.

I'm sure Russ has made it clear that this forum is not about jumping to conclusions until a "true working replication" has been achieved and documented.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on July 10th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Stan took 15 years to develop his technology. so we have to invest some time to get it replicated. I started at Energetic forum , found hereticalbuilders as my pole position and now I take part at open-source.

My observations show that people make some progress up to a certain  point and then they get stucked.

it always happens when entering experimental state. so there is a long startup phase (people building some circuits and devices) and then if (of course) it doesn´t work like a charme it stucks.

reasons as far as I can see:

- no coordinated experimentation and exchange of results
- no workload sharing
- no precise equippment

examples:

where is a thread for straight forward experimental results compilation?
where is a lessons learned for advanced experimental equippment?

I built those types of pulsers like Russ and others 2 years ago and I know very well their weak points from the beginning of this forum acitvity. I posted that but got no positive response. so things have to go the long way - no short cut - ok.

to sum up my observations lots of efforts are done by people in the startup phase   as long as there is quick progress visible.
at phase 2 - the more important phase when things get tricky people get frustrated at the very beginning and get stuck into discussions instead of continuous experimentation.




Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Sharky on July 11th, 2012, 01:38 AM
Quote from bussi04 on July 10th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Stan took 15 years to develop his technology. so we have to invest some time to get it replicated. I started at Energetic forum , found hereticalbuilders as my pole position and now I take part at open-source.

My observations show that people make some progress up to a certain  point and then they get stucked.

it always happens when entering experimental state. so there is a long startup phase (people building some circuits and devices) and then if (of course) it doesn´t work like a charme it stucks.

reasons as far as I can see:

- no coordinated experimentation and exchange of results
- no workload sharing
- no precise equippment

examples:

where is a thread for straight forward experimental results compilation?
where is a lessons learned for advanced experimental equippment?

I built those types of pulsers like Russ and others 2 years ago and I know very well their weak points from the beginning of this forum acitvity. I posted that but got no positive response. so things have to go the long way - no short cut - ok.

to sum up my observations lots of efforts are done by people in the startup phase   as long as there is quick progress visible.
at phase 2 - the more important phase when things get tricky people get frustrated at the very beginning and get stuck into discussions instead of continuous experimentation.
Bussi you are right on the spot with your comments!

Up to now nobody has been able to replicate the 'visible' results of stanley meyer. With all the available information like patents and photos we have been able to replicate the WFC technology upto a certain point but if it was as easy as winding some coils, connect it to a cell and sent a pulsed DC signal into it to make it work a lot of us would already have achieved that a long time ago. So the conclusion about replication is: we can replicate the system with all the currently available information but that will only supply some important preconditions and will not result in excessive hho production

What is needed then? Simply put: RESEARCH !!! and no, ... research is not replication! Research is all about understanding and iterating through: building, testing, measuring, interpretation of results and back to building again. Every iteration will bring you closer to the solution. If you do not make and document your measurements and if you do not try to understand and scientifically explain your testresults before you continue to the next iteration your next iteration will be useless and you will get 'stuck' as Bussi states.

So research requires something more than replication and not all are able to do that. If you are into research keep positive and add to the discussions over here, if you are into replication subscribe to Russ'es emaillist and you get notified as soon as we got the job done (either proving or disproving the Meyer WFC tech).

For all the rest and the naysayers please refer to:
http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=498
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2012, 07:35 AM
I agree with you both Bussi and Sharky, like I have said many times before, we need to prove or disprove every idea and document what we are doing. :idea: I really think we need much more controlled organization, no disrespect to Russ or anyone else for that matter, but Russ has said he can't do it all, as Bussi said, it took Stan 15 years to develop his technology, well, we don't have 15 years :huh: , we might have a year at most before someone comes in and shuts us down or something else happens :angel: . Any good leader will delegate tasks to be accomplished, Russ has done this to a degree, but what is really needed and no disrespect again, is for members of this forum to step up. I suggest we form five or six teams of people willing to take the lead, of research in the different aspects of Stan's technology, to focus on this only, all having a team leaders, who would document what is being learned. I realize we all have responsibilities, making a living and families, this would take priority over the research, too, this is volunteer work. Things on the forum have slowed down to a snails pace, what I am wishing for are members willing to take up the slack to speed things up, time is running out without your help this work will not get done.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on July 11th, 2012, 11:49 AM
Hi all,

Are there other members who measured the capacitance of the 3 inch WFC with different types of water in it?

I have tried and measured the WFC air capacitance with a automatic capacitance metering device. And measured 39.4pF @ 200kHz. Dynodon had 21.6pF.

With tap water I measure the capacitance, 260uF DC. :huh:
(I think my automatic meter is useless for this task and I can't set it to manual mode)

I build and tested the VIC v1.1 pcb.
Are there members who are also testing this circuit with default components?

Any progress here or somewhere...connecting the v1.1, 3 inch WFC and VIC (1200perm core) ???

I think it's time to synchronize all data in a dedicated v1.1 only thread, if we don't combine data and sync one design for testing results, it remains very difficult to replicate the final VIC setup with different setups.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on July 11th, 2012, 01:36 PM
Sorry for the offtopic but  anyone knows this song? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76QMrkO1K44  the original one not this''cover''
Is also on peswiky radio interviews
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on July 11th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Things have definately slowed over the last month or so, but that is just part of the research phase. At times there's just not alot going on and other times your waiting for parts/supplies.

Here the heat has kept me out of the garage. In the garage today it's around 105.

Hopefully things will get working soon. Until then take care everyone,


HMS-776







Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on July 20th, 2012, 09:57 PM
Well,

Still working on finding resonance.

When using a function generator in conjunction with a spectrum analyzer some interesting things happen. The spectrum analyzer shows that as the applied frequency changes the peaks also change. To me this suggests the capacitance changes drastically with frequency. That is one reason why it's so hard to find resonance on this circuit.

Another interesting thing is that the circuit acts as a filter. At times the square waves turn into sine waves, or amplitude modulation. And at some frequencies the square wave is multiple times lower in frequency than the applied square wave. For instance at 20.5kHz applied the wave across the cap is 40Hz.

Not sure exactly what's going on here. But the capacitor is definately non-linear (even using distilled water).
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on July 21st, 2012, 11:09 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on July 20th, 2012, 09:57 PM
Well,

Still working on finding resonance.

When using a function generator in conjunction with a spectrum analyzer some interesting things happen. The spectrum analyzer shows that as the applied frequency changes the peaks also change. To me this suggests the capacitance changes drastically with frequency. That is one reason why it's so hard to find resonance on this circuit.

Another interesting thing is that the circuit acts as a filter. At times the square waves turn into sine waves, or amplitude modulation. And at some frequencies the square wave is multiple times lower in frequency than the applied square wave. For instance at 20.5kHz applied the wave across the cap is 40Hz.

Not sure exactly what's going on here. But the capacitor is definately non-linear (even using distilled water).
Hi HMS,

Affirmative: capacitance / inductance changes on different frequencies... so I picked one for tuning the coils and wfc on. (example f0=4.5kHz -> fr=9kHz you have WFC C and inductance L and want impedance WFC <= COILS)

Frequency fr is doubled so charge frequency f0 is halve fr. (blocking diode)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Badger on July 24th, 2012, 06:33 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2012, 07:35 AM
I agree with you both Bussi and Sharky, like I have said many times before, we need to prove or disprove every idea and document what we are doing. :idea: I really think we need much more controlled organization, no disrespect to Russ or anyone else for that matter, but Russ has said he can't do it all, as Bussi said, it took Stan 15 years to develop his technology, well, we don't have 15 years :huh: , we might have a year at most before someone comes in and shuts us down or something else happens :angel: . Any good leader will delegate tasks to be accomplished, Russ has done this to a degree, but what is really needed and no disrespect again, is for members of this forum to step up. I suggest we form five or six teams of people willing to take the lead, of research in the different aspects of Stan's technology, to focus on this only, all having a team leaders, who would document what is being learned. I realize we all have responsibilities, making a living and families, this would take priority over the research, too, this is volunteer work. Things on the forum have slowed down to a snails pace, what I am wishing for are members willing to take up the slack to speed things up, time is running out without your help this work will not get done.
I like this idea of having teams and team leaders.  I've been watching this forum for a little while, and waiting for an opportunity to help out, just haven't found out how that is yet.  What I'm seeing are guys like Jeff, bussi, HMS-776, Sharky, twoodside, alexpetty, Russ, who have years of experience and tons of useful information, but a lot of times it's completely ignored!  Or, their useful comments are buried in a thread because right after they post, all of the sudden a dozen posts are dumped in the thread with very little value.  Better collaboration is needed! Maybe project specific wiki's, teams for each project w/ team leaders.  Leaders give their team members very specific tasks and goals... document progress and results in threads, but keep wiki's updated as the "how-to" for newbies to get up to speed as quickly as possible.  One team could just handle material supply, that seems to be an ongoing issue.  Periodic posts of "who's interested in a complete VIC, we're putting in a large order".  Develop kits containing the wire, cores, coils, circuit boards, etc.  I know some of this is being done, but not as organized as it could be.
I don't have any electronics background, so I've been digging for information for months, and I'm still lost.  It's overwhelming, so I'm focusing on a very small piece of the puzzle, the water injector, and working on a homemade gas generator just to get some hands on experience in  fabricating and electronics.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on July 24th, 2012, 07:14 AM
Quote from Badger on July 24th, 2012, 06:33 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2012, 07:35 AM
I agree with you both Bussi and Sharky, like I have said many times before, we need to prove or disprove every idea and document what we are doing. :idea: I really think we need much more controlled organization, no disrespect to Russ or anyone else for that matter, but Russ has said he can't do it all, as Bussi said, it took Stan 15 years to develop his technology, well, we don't have 15 years :huh: , we might have a year at most before someone comes in and shuts us down or something else happens :angel: . Any good leader will delegate tasks to be accomplished, Russ has done this to a degree, but what is really needed and no disrespect again, is for members of this forum to step up. I suggest we form five or six teams of people willing to take the lead, of research in the different aspects of Stan's technology, to focus on this only, all having a team leaders, who would document what is being learned. I realize we all have responsibilities, making a living and families, this would take priority over the research, too, this is volunteer work. Things on the forum have slowed down to a snails pace, what I am wishing for are members willing to take up the slack to speed things up, time is running out without your help this work will not get done.
I like this idea of having teams and team leaders.  I've been watching this forum for a little while, and waiting for an opportunity to help out, just haven't found out how that is yet.  What I'm seeing are guys like Jeff, bussi, HMS-776, Sharky, twoodside, alexpetty, Russ, who have years of experience and tons of useful information, but a lot of times it's completely ignored!  Or, their useful comments are buried in a thread because right after they post, all of the sudden a dozen posts are dumped in the thread with very little value.  Better collaboration is needed! Maybe project specific wiki's, teams for each project w/ team leaders.  Leaders give their team members very specific tasks and goals... document progress and results in threads, but keep wiki's updated as the "how-to" for newbies to get up to speed as quickly as possible.  One team could just handle material supply, that seems to be an ongoing issue.  Periodic posts of "who's interested in a complete VIC, we're putting in a large order".  Develop kits containing the wire, cores, coils, circuit boards, etc.  I know some of this is being done, but not as organized as it could be.
I don't have any electronics background, so I've been digging for information for months, and I'm still lost.  It's overwhelming, so I'm focusing on a very small piece of the puzzle, the water injector, and working on a homemade gas generator just to get some hands on experience in  fabricating and electronics.
Those are very excellent ideas :idea:  Badger and should be implemented, :cool:  we need Russ to see this, I will move these thoughts to the round table discussion part of the forum, so please anyone wanting to add their thoughts to this please do so there, I should have posted this there as well, thanks Jeff.:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on July 24th, 2012, 03:24 PM
WikiSpeed is using an organizing system used by software engineers do build their open source cars.  They have people working all over the world on certain areas of the car.   Might be worth looking into how their system works, and try to apply it to our research.

Nate
Title: ROCK HARD : Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on September 25th, 2012, 01:20 PM

Suggest making

Scrum board on components

http://www.scrumy.com/

to power through more

check web for wikispeed team as example

A MUST WATCH

WE CAN DO IT

https://www.youtube.com/user/WIKISPEED


 
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Lynx on November 17th, 2012, 01:37 AM
You just don't give up do you, Valyonpz1?
This is how many times you've posted this?
10?
How about posting a clip showing how your WFC is performing in terms of
gas output, water temperature, electric effect input, etc etc.
Or doesn't it work the way it's supposed to be working?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: symanuk on November 17th, 2012, 04:20 AM
Valyonpz1 stop posting this video. Please. It does not help the discussion in any way and you just make yourself look truculent.

Put some details with regard to open source and how to replicate, offer some insight into who is doing what and how, or just plain stop it.

Please.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D
"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:42 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D
"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.
Thanks Faisca. :D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current.
"
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/182690/electric-polarization)

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current.
"
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/182690/electric-polarization)

Br,
Webmug
I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: geenee on November 27th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Quote from Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current.
"
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/182690/electric-polarization)

Br,
Webmug
I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.
-without leakage
this is possible with gas resonant tube,gas processor(ionize ambient air).

-about need current that maintain.but if voltage lead current and then stop voltage before current appear.this is voltage only, right? Stan say "series LC circuit" why not parallel LC circuit. all of this because amps is importance.

Faraday law depend on Amps.Series LC, that make amps.but efficiency.

i added file from ionizationx.com about that.

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current.
"
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/182690/electric-polarization)

Br,
Webmug
I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.
Quote
so we are going round in circles.
Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

There is no current flow through the WFC!
Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Amsy on December 4th, 2012, 07:36 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug
I understand your words and refer to my post in an other thread:
http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=733&pid=10161#pid10161
I´m with you when you say, the current can be inhibited because of the frequency and the coils. Coils for there own are resonant circuits because of the parasitic C component. With intent the C was high in Stanley Meyers VIC because of the multi layer charging chokes.

Ok so Z can be very high because of both chokes are oscillating on the same frequency. Also that means the current can be very low...
But where is the potential difference between the B+ and B-  to perform the EEP?

Is there a potetial difference because of the two resonant circuits? Because they can run out of phase (180° turned).
Because of the diode, the leak-current therefor would be unipolar to the WFC.
Regards

Edit: the green and the red lines should be sine waves of the two resonant circuits of choke 1 and 2 :D ...terrible mouse painting
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Jeff Nading on December 4th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Quote from Webmug on November 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
There is leakage current (about 1-2mA) when he hit resonance!
Exciters are NOT insulated.

"The Dielectric Constant, or permittivity - ε - is a dimensionless constant that indicates how easy a material can be polarized by imposition of an electric field on an insulating material. The constant is

the ratio between the actual material ability to carry an alternating current to the ability of vacuum to carry the current.
"
Water is the insulating material in the liquid state.

This does not apply to a WFC, because current 'flow' is restricted by choking it of using the magnetic fields of the chokes. Then the dielectric can take a charge (separating the molecules)

The process is known (called EP electric polarization) but not properly used when restricting current. Meyer called it EPP electric polarization process.
electric polarization(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/182690/electric-polarization)

Br,
Webmug
I disagree, only water is insulating at zero degrees temperature. And while liquid, will always lead, which melts the condition of capacitor in a cell, not letting the tension rise without paying the price of the current, growing.
Have joined many years and nobody got this magic.
An inductor can decrease the current (pulses) in the electrodes under water, in consequence lies in the tension = 1.2 V. (with miliamps) if you want more volts, it must allow more current ... and so we are going round in circles.
To achieve the so-called "EP", we need a strong electric field. This is only possible in a dielectric without leakage.
Quote
so we are going round in circles.
Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

There is no current flow through the WFC!
Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug
This is the true means of Stan's work.:D
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:51 AM
Quote from Amsy on December 4th, 2012, 07:36 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.

Only the so called practical current leakage due imperfections of the inductor design at resonance (this has impact on the final voltage amplitude generation).

Where can current flow if you choke it at both sides? This is the main problem for voltage to take over when not restricting current. If you do not restrict current, voltage can not grow! Because the dielectric is charged you gain voltage. This is the reverse mode. If you put more voltage on a cell not restricting the current, it will consume and voltage stays at 2V on a normal cell (current flow also destroys exciters and create heat).

We still do not understand the "restricting mode".
Stan always said using the resonant charging chokes collapsing magnetic field to restrict current at both sides and sending UNIPOLAR PULSES (B+ and B-) into the WFC (NEVER sending AC sinusoid waveforms). Read as one period as halve positive and halve going to negative voltage etc.

Regards,
Webmug
I understand your words and refer to my post in an other thread:
http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=733&pid=10161#pid10161
I´m with you when you say, the current can be inhibited because of the frequency and the coils. Coils for there own are resonant circuits because of the parasitic C component. The C was high in Stanley Meyers VIC because of the multi layer coils.

Ok so Z can be very high because of both chokes are oscillatin gon the same frequency. Also that means the current can be very low...
But where is the potential difference between the B+ and B-  to perform the EEP?

Is there a potetial difference because of the two resonant circuits? Because they can run out of phase (180° turned).

Regards
Quote
Is there a potetial difference because of the two resonant circuits? Because they can run out of phase (180° turned).

http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=733&pid=10161#pid10161
There exist the VIC readings for example:
Choke 1: L=1218mH C=157pF---> fres would be 11.507Hz
Choke 2: L=1093mH C=180pF---> fres would be 11.347Hz
Yes there is 180° out of phase at the negative choke due the reverse connection to the WFC.

Measure the total inductance and capacitance of the series circuit (L1, WFC, L2) :idea: Not,  11.507Hz :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Lynx on December 4th, 2012, 08:13 AM
I really don't understand the ones insisting on photoshopping Stan's images to include an AC voltage
to the WFC as opposed to a pulsed DC voltage.
What possible purpose would that serve?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on December 4th, 2012, 10:17 AM
''Why are we going round in circles, because we always talk about current flow.''

webmug is right about that,why worring so much about curent flow,it is restricting itself by the nature of the step up transformer,if you have 1:10 ratio on a transf.and you pulse its primary with 1amp,then 1amp :10=0.1amps on the sec. output,because the amps are reverse proportional with voltage,taking in acount that Stan's trans was 1:30 and he pulsed it's primary with 3amps,and the chokes are restricting the amps too,with their magnetic field..so ..do the math...The hardest part is to get amps to the cell not restricting them...Cheers!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: enrev on January 12th, 2013, 08:48 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D
"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.
Hi,
I didn't find a direct reference in Stan's patentes but Ravi mentioned that in one of Stans patents he talked about using polyoxymethylene (Derlin) which has a high dielectric constant instead of coating the SS tubes. This material seems to be commonly used to build insulators, bobbins, connectors, parts for electronic devices such as televisions, which are often associated with high voltages therefore it might be what we are looking for.
My view is that looking at all the existing attempts to replicate what Stan did (Dave, Ravi, Scott etc.) they all reported improved production with coating which would confirm the thesis that a certain additional insulation prevents current leakage increasing the dielectric charge and voltage raise eventually.
FAISCA, could you check the above insulating material dielectric specs and comment whether it fits or not in your view?
I'm a new subscriber even if I've been monitoring the forums for a while but it looks to me none of us is at the stage of HHO production yet right (I've just finished my PCM and currently building the WFC)? If anyone would be there we could test Derlin or similar insulation effect on the HHO production.

Jul.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on January 12th, 2013, 10:57 AM
Quote from enrev on January 12th, 2013, 08:48 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on November 26th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Quote from Faisca on November 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
Quote from Webmug on November 26th, 2012, 06:38 AM
Hi @All,
I'm waking up this thread, since it's in a kind of hibernation mode :D

RULE: Stan Meyer (EPP) Electrical Polarization Process
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=188&pid=5948#pid5948

2-6:Principles of Electrodynamics
Principles of Electrodynamics (polarization)(http://books.google.nl/books?id=dCQiejCy1kcC&pg=PA45&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Vibrational Contributions to Molecular Dipole Polarizabilities
 "When a molecule is placed in an electric field it exhibits molecular polarization, a property which, in principle, has three components: orientation polarization, electronic polarization and vibrational polarization. (book concerned with the last component)"
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd199.pdf

Chapter I:Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields
Atoms, Molecules And Clusters in Electric Fields(http://www.scribd.com/doc/56282510/Ebooksclub-org-Atoms-Molecules-and-Clusters-in-Electric-Fields-Theoretical-Approaches-to-the-Calculation-of-Electric-Polarizability-Computational-Nume)

"This article is limited to static phenomena, and does not describe time-dependent or dynamic polarization."
Electric dipole moment(http://en.goldenmap.com/Electric_dipole_moment)

Too bad, I think SM has a form of Dynamic Polarization!!!!

Did someone noticed the total capacitance C1 (L1 Cp and Cwfc) has different capacitance C2 (L2 Cp and Cwfc). Choke L1 connected to POS exciter and choke L2 to NEG exciter?
Because there is a ROD and TUBE, two exciters of different dimensions.
"The tunable L2 coil"

This current restricting only works if C's are equal compensated and the two L's are the same. So there is the same resonance frequency for both chokes (highest static pulsating potential at lowest current). According to Meyer voltage then takes over.

Best regards,
Webmug
sorry, but you're going round in circles, to insist on establishing high-potential electrodes in water with almost zero current. This is impossible unless, there is an insulating interface, not only water as a dielectric, but a film with high dielectric constant, on electrodes. And this dielectric must be many times higher than that of water. This was not mentioned in the patents S.Meyer (was omitted), but made ​​it very clear, the importance of no leakage current.
I know some of us have experienced isolate the electrodes without success, why? why not work with any dielectric? because water has a high "K" = 78 and any insulator has a "K" = + / - 3. We need a 'K' => 1500 (twenty to thirty times higher than water).
Maybe "BaTiO3".
Hi Faisca, could you explain - "K" and "BaTiO3", don't really understand the abbreviations here. :D
"K": Dielectric constant
"BaTiO 3": Barium titanate.
Hi,
I didn't find a direct reference in Stan's patentes but Ravi mentioned that in one of Stans patents he talked about using polyoxymethylene (Derlin) which has a high dielectric constant instead of coating the SS tubes. This material seems to be commonly used to build insulators, bobbins, connectors, parts for electronic devices such as televisions, which are often associated with high voltages therefore it might be what we are looking for.
My view is that looking at all the existing attempts to replicate what Stan did (Dave, Ravi, Scott etc.) they all reported improved production with coating which would confirm the thesis that a certain additional insulation prevents current leakage increasing the dielectric charge and voltage raise eventually.
FAISCA, could you check the above insulating material dielectric specs and comment whether it fits or not in your view?
I'm a new subscriber even if I've been monitoring the forums for a while but it looks to me none of us is at the stage of HHO production yet right (I've just finished my PCM and currently building the WFC)? If anyone would be there we could test Derlin or similar insulation effect on the HHO production.

Jul.
welcome, i have herd similar things... but have not tried it my self...

ps. derlin is what stan's used on all his devices. only prob is i never have never seen a coated cell from stan's stuff...

now it would be interesting to see what the results are...

~Russ
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: firepinto on January 19th, 2013, 08:45 AM
I found this in my random interweb searches:
http://www.elektrisola.com/conductor-materials/stainless-steel/steel-304-14301.html

:cool:
Wonder what the costs are?

Nate
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM
Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM
Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.
Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: ~Russ on January 20th, 2013, 11:42 PM
Quote from firepinto on January 19th, 2013, 08:45 AM
I found this in my random interweb searches:
http://www.elektrisola.com/conductor-materials/stainless-steel/steel-304-14301.html

:cool:
Wonder what the costs are?

Nate
nice find nate. wonder what are the enamelles they offer...
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM
Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM
Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.
Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...
With or without the quencing diode?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: enrev on January 23rd, 2013, 07:13 AM
Quote from enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM
Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM
Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.
Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...
With or without the quencing diode?
I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on January 23rd, 2013, 02:00 PM
[/quote]I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.[/quote]Tony had the 5 coil vic with a real cap,the chokes were separated from eachother conected out of phase,Jon had bifiliar chokes with a resistor as water...
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: DanB on January 23rd, 2013, 02:17 PM
Quote from enrev on January 23rd, 2013, 07:13 AM
Quote from enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM
Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM
Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.
Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...
With or without the quencing diode?
I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.
In the 5 coil VIC transformer the two chokes are on regular bobins and are not bililar wound. They seem to have been wired opposing fields. The only circuit we have pictures of that have bifilar wound chokes is the 8XA demonstation unit. Many of Stans information and diagrams show seperate coils (some variable). Therefore I do not beleave that they need to be bifilar wound. It may have been earily in Stans reserch that it was the easiest way to match the two coils.

As for using a regular capacitor in place of the cell, I think there is more to the cell than just a capacitance. If it could be replaced that easy many people would have been able to get the system to work. Also, what would limit the charge (voltage) across the real capacitor? It would have no place to discharge because of the diode and would build up untill? So, at a minimum a capacitor with a resistor in parallel would be a good start. When we are able to get a system to work this should be one of the first thing to figure out is the electrical model of the cell.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: enrev on January 25th, 2013, 10:29 AM
Quote from DanB on January 23rd, 2013, 02:17 PM
Quote from enrev on January 23rd, 2013, 07:13 AM
Quote from enrev on January 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM
Quote from adys15 on January 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM
Quote from enrev on January 20th, 2013, 08:14 AM
Folks,
I'm still trying to figure out a few thinks which are unclear to me and even if I have some doubts I don't know the answers yet otherwise I'd have already shared.
I'm wondering if sharing my questions could help me to get a better view with your help. Let me just share my objective: I'd like to figure out if the current troubles we are all facing to replicate Stan's work is just a matter of tuning or if there is anything bigger we miss, such as a design issue.

The first question would be the following:
assuming we would have found the perfect values and therefore tuning for inductances, resistances, water cell capacitance and ferrite core parameters, do you believe the circuit would achieve the resonance if we replace the water cell with a capacitar of the same capacitance? What I mean is if we need a particular capacitor with a un common dielectric like water to make the whole thing works or if resonance could be achieved just putting the correct capacitance value no matter what dielectric the capacitor has.

The reason I'm asking is because of the diode before the charging choke, which is what makes me puzzled, but don't wanna add to much to influence answers.

Thanks in advance to those willing to spend some time brainstorming a bit on this.

Jul.
Tony put a real cap on his vic circuit and transformer and got resonance and stepcharging,Jon Able put a resistor instead of water and got the same signal as with water...
With or without the quencing diode?
I haven't seen any further reply so let me try to trigger the discussion with one more question. L1 and L2 in the Vic transformer being used to test the Vic circuit are bifilar or wounded in opoosite directions or are regular bobins?

Jul.
In the 5 coil VIC transformer the two chokes are on regular bobins and are not bililar wound. They seem to have been wired opposing fields. The only circuit we have pictures of that have bifilar wound chokes is the 8XA demonstation unit. Many of Stans information and diagrams show seperate coils (some variable). Therefore I do not beleave that they need to be bifilar wound. It may have been earily in Stans reserch that it was the easiest way to match the two coils.

As for using a regular capacitor in place of the cell, I think there is more to the cell than just a capacitance. If it could be replaced that easy many people would have been able to get the system to work. Also, what would limit the charge (voltage) across the real capacitor? It would have no place to discharge because of the diode and would build up untill? So, at a minimum a capacitor with a resistor in parallel would be a good start. When we are able to get a system to work this should be one of the first thing to figure out is the electrical model of the cell.
My view is that the diode when associated with regular coils and a regular capacitor will limit the voltage to twice Vcc because the diode will seize the circuit. You can easily find this out with a circuit simulator or with a test, it's a know circuit. To get oscillations, and therefore resonance you need either to discarge the capacitor somehow, like for example the sparc gap does in a tesla coil with resonance ballasting. That's why my question about the difference between a regular capatitor, which clearly doesn't discharge, or the water cell that might somehow discarge its energy into the strange dielectric represented by the water.
Regarding Stan and bifilars it's more a matter of what we mean by bifilar; what is clear since early Stan's patents is that he always wounded the 2 inductances in opposite directions ( so if you prefer "a kind of bifilar") even if someone said that this is a mistake on the picture on his patent...there are no such mistakes in the patents. I believe he did that otherwise there is no way to make it works with a diode. All the tests that so far achieved a certain success had either no diode or diode and bifilar. The combination of diode and regular bobins simply cannot work as there is no way to feed energy into the LC circuit after the initial charge. This could explain current troubles to replicate Stan's work within the forum.
Of course i might be completely wrong but in that case i'd appreciate some help to understand the role of the diode and how to wound the 2 bobins.

Jul.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: DanB on January 25th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Quote from DanB on January 25th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.
I'm fine with all what you said. Let's forget bifilar as it creates misunderstanding; my point is that in Stan's design L1 and L2 are always wounded in opposite directions and magnetically coupled and there is a clear reason for doing that, it's not a mistake in the patent's picture. The bifilar is just a particular way of crancking the 2 inductances because as you have noticed the way the bifilar are connected is creating 2 opposite magnetic fields, same behaviour you get with two regular coils wounded in opposite directions.
What we need to concentrate on is the diode; it opens the circuit after the initial charge of the capacitor therefore the system can only work if it is properly magnetically coupled otherwise there is no way to transfer energy from the transformer/supply to the wfc (the diode prevents that).
My conclusion is that if you put a diode but your vic transformer is not properly magnetically coupled the system cannot work and it's not a matter of tuning the parameters. This is why I'm asking how the vic transformer is being wounded by the forum friends having troubles to find resonance.
On the other side if you remove the diode the system can work but not very efficiently as there is energy flowing back from the LC to the tranformer prime. The principle is the same that happens in the tesla coil when the sparking gap closes the circuit too long because of air ionizzation. Both Dave Lawton and Ravi's replica of the wfc were working but way less efficient then Stan's one and guess what... they didn't have the diode. Also the original wfc, the one from which clearly Stan got inspired from Puharich didn't have the diode while everything else was almost the same...a part the words used by the inventors to explain their works.
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Matt Watts on January 26th, 2013, 11:48 AM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.
The only obvious characteristic I can see is you are no longer dealing with an AC circuit, but instead a pulsed DC circuit.  And having the inductors magnetically coupled in a pulsed DC circuit gives you a hybrid design which is difficult to find good examples/explanations.  Even Wikipedia's reference is very weak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_DC
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Rectification.svg/350px-Rectification.svg.png)

I'm afraid we are pretty much on our own unless we are able to break the individual components down to their purpose and how they interact with the other components.  Possibly using the Superposition Theorem may help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_theorem
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_10/7.html

One will still have to be very cautious of the magnetic coupling, maybe even to the point of looking at the inductors as transformers.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: gpssonar on January 26th, 2013, 01:04 PM
Quote from Dog-One on January 26th, 2013, 11:48 AM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.
The only obvious characteristic I can see is you are no longer dealing with an AC circuit, but instead a pulsed DC circuit.  And having the inductors magnetically coupled in a pulsed DC circuit gives you a hybrid design which is difficult to find good examples/explanations.  Even Wikipedia's reference is very weak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_DC
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Rectification.svg/350px-Rectification.svg.png)

I'm afraid we are pretty much on our own unless we are able to break the individual components down to their purpose and how they interact with the other components.  Possibly using the Superposition Theorem may help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_theorem
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_10/7.html

One will still have to be very cautious of the magnetic coupling, maybe even to the point of looking at the inductors as transformers.
Dog, That's the way i am looking at the inductors, as transformers right now in the pulse on, in the pulse off they act as inductors. Still doing testing.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: geenee on January 26th, 2013, 02:21 PM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Quote from DanB on January 25th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.
I'm fine with all what you said. Let's forget bifilar as it creates misunderstanding; my point is that in Stan's design L1 and L2 are always wounded in opposite directions and magnetically coupled and there is a clear reason for doing that, it's not a mistake in the patent's picture. The bifilar is just a particular way of crancking the 2 inductances because as you have noticed the way the bifilar are connected is creating 2 opposite magnetic fields, same behaviour you get with two regular coils wounded in opposite directions.
What we need to concentrate on is the diode; it opens the circuit after the initial charge of the capacitor therefore the system can only work if it is properly magnetically coupled otherwise there is no way to transfer energy from the transformer/supply to the wfc (the diode prevents that).
My conclusion is that if you put a diode but your vic transformer is not properly magnetically coupled the system cannot work and it's not a matter of tuning the parameters. This is why I'm asking how the vic transformer is being wounded by the forum friends having troubles to find resonance.
On the other side if you remove the diode the system can work but not very efficiently as there is energy flowing back from the LC to the tranformer prime. The principle is the same that happens in the tesla coil when the sparking gap closes the circuit too long because of air ionizzation. Both Dave Lawton and Ravi's replica of the wfc were working but way less efficient then Stan's one and guess what... they didn't have the diode. Also the original wfc, the one from which clearly Stan got inspired from Puharich didn't have the diode while everything else was almost the same...a part the words used by the inventors to explain their works.
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.
this's a diode and choke and frequency doubling.he used step down transformer with center tap(60hz)to explain,with bifilar choke.i don't test yet if not use transformer with center tap, bifilar choke but use only 2 regular chokes on the same core and pulse transformer without center tap. video from Tonywoodside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR0VOZMPjNg

thanks
geenee
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on January 26th, 2013, 02:24 PM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Quote from DanB on January 25th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.
I'm fine with all what you said. Let's forget bifilar as it creates misunderstanding; my point is that in Stan's design L1 and L2 are always wounded in opposite directions and magnetically coupled and there is a clear reason for doing that, it's not a mistake in the patent's picture. The bifilar is just a particular way of crancking the 2 inductances because as you have noticed the way the bifilar are connected is creating 2 opposite magnetic fields, same behaviour you get with two regular coils wounded in opposite directions.
What we need to concentrate on is the diode; it opens the circuit after the initial charge of the capacitor therefore the system can only work if it is properly magnetically coupled otherwise there is no way to transfer energy from the transformer/supply to the wfc (the diode prevents that).
My conclusion is that if you put a diode but your vic transformer is not properly magnetically coupled the system cannot work and it's not a matter of tuning the parameters. This is why I'm asking how the vic transformer is being wounded by the forum friends having troubles to find resonance.
On the other side if you remove the diode the system can work but not very efficiently as there is energy flowing back from the LC to the tranformer prime. The principle is the same that happens in the tesla coil when the sparking gap closes the circuit too long because of air ionizzation. Both Dave Lawton and Ravi's replica of the wfc were working but way less efficient then Stan's one and guess what... they didn't have the diode. Also the original wfc, the one from which clearly Stan got inspired from Puharich didn't have the diode while everything else was almost the same...a part the words used by the inventors to explain their works.
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.
Jul. this is not my line, but I'll put an idea to explain the diode, and the circuit "LC":
First, understand that the cell is not the capacitor is a resistor (Meyer's words). The capacitor "C" is created by bifilar.
Thus the diode is needed to insulate the tank "LC" of the pulse transformer. Now you see a lot of similarity with the patent of Puharich. You now have ac and resonance. Perhaps the imbalance of L1 and L2 helps cell to produce  H.
Quote from geenee on January 26th, 2013, 02:21 PM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Quote from DanB on January 25th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.
I'm fine with all what you said. Let's forget bifilar as it creates misunderstanding; my point is that in Stan's design L1 and L2 are always wounded in opposite directions and magnetically coupled and there is a clear reason for doing that, it's not a mistake in the patent's picture. The bifilar is just a particular way of crancking the 2 inductances because as you have noticed the way the bifilar are connected is creating 2 opposite magnetic fields, same behaviour you get with two regular coils wounded in opposite directions.
What we need to concentrate on is the diode; it opens the circuit after the initial charge of the capacitor therefore the system can only work if it is properly magnetically coupled otherwise there is no way to transfer energy from the transformer/supply to the wfc (the diode prevents that).
My conclusion is that if you put a diode but your vic transformer is not properly magnetically coupled the system cannot work and it's not a matter of tuning the parameters. This is why I'm asking how the vic transformer is being wounded by the forum friends having troubles to find resonance.
On the other side if you remove the diode the system can work but not very efficiently as there is energy flowing back from the LC to the tranformer prime. The principle is the same that happens in the tesla coil when the sparking gap closes the circuit too long because of air ionizzation. Both Dave Lawton and Ravi's replica of the wfc were working but way less efficient then Stan's one and guess what... they didn't have the diode. Also the original wfc, the one from which clearly Stan got inspired from Puharich didn't have the diode while everything else was almost the same...a part the words used by the inventors to explain their works.
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.
this's a diode and choke and frequency doubling.he used step down transformer with center tap(60hz)to explain,with bifilar choke.i don't test yet if not use transformer with center tap, bifilar choke but use only 2 regular chokes on the same core and pulse transformer without center tap. video from Tonywoodside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR0VOZMPjNg

thanks
geenee
Please make for clarity in the diagram. Draw and shoot.
Note: A problem of this guidance, when I receive mail, to see the new post, I am directed to the first page. Someone else, does this happen?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Gunther Rattay on January 27th, 2013, 10:44 AM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
I'm fine with all what you said. Let's forget bifilar as it creates misunderstanding; my point is that in Stan's design L1 and L2 are always wounded in opposite directions and magnetically coupled and there is a clear reason for doing that, it's not a mistake in the patent's picture. The bifilar is just a particular way of crancking the 2 inductances because as you have noticed the way the bifilar are connected is creating 2 opposite magnetic fields, same behaviour you get with two regular coils wounded in opposite directions.
What we need to concentrate on is the diode; it opens the circuit after the initial charge of the capacitor therefore the system can only work if it is properly magnetically coupled otherwise there is no way to transfer energy from the transformer/supply to the wfc (the diode prevents that).
My conclusion is that if you put a diode but your vic transformer is not properly magnetically coupled the system cannot work and it's not a matter of tuning the parameters. This is why I'm asking how the vic transformer is being wounded by the forum friends having troubles to find resonance.
On the other side if you remove the diode the system can work but not very efficiently as there is energy flowing back from the LC to the tranformer prime. The principle is the same that happens in the tesla coil when the sparking gap closes the circuit too long because of air ionizzation. Both Dave Lawton and Ravi's replica of the wfc were working but way less efficient then Stan's one and guess what... they didn't have the diode. Also the original wfc, the one from which clearly Stan got inspired from Puharich didn't have the diode while everything else was almost the same...a part the words used by the inventors to explain their works.
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.
First of all I think we should define some circuit design looked at as a standard configuration.

that might be the one Meyer calls VIC with primary, sec, diode, upper inductor, wfc and lower inductor.

Let´s  take the diode as a non ideal switch.
A switch because it opens the circuit depending on primary pulse condition.
Non ideal because when secondary voltage potential changes and current is going to change direction there is a short period of time while avalanche current really flows thru the diode to backwards direction. that may have some influence kinda oscillation effect to the inductors. there is some hint in Meyer´s doc to use fast switching diodes.

let´s take the inductors L1 and L2 as main reasons for current suppression.
Depending on primary pulsing condition there is a magnetic field collaps condition and at that time period the inductors become voltage sources that influences current flow thru the LCL configuration. it should be mentioned that there is a single diode in the circuit and that the lower path of the circuit stays coupled to the transformer´s secondary spool.

And due to the bifilar windings there is lots of parasitic capacitance in the system giving room for parallel and serial LCR configurations and oscillations.

There is poor information about primary circuit specials. there is always be shown a rectangular input signal but maybe there is some more components for resonance support or impedance matching.

I appreciate the good work of gps and rav so far and once the basic calculations for the static system as a startup are done

next step should be a dynamic system calculation.

how?

IHMO there are 2 ways minimum:

using LTSpice simulation always observing that simulation behaviour is similar to measured behaviour

or

using advanced calculations as used by Maple or Mathcad.

in both cases there are ways to recalculate magnetic flux parameters into electrical parameters and that way build a dynamic model of the system.

the same way the WFC in a third step can be modelled both ways.


the circuit diagram for a VIC can be easily be done using LTSpice:



Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Paul Butcher on January 29th, 2013, 01:36 PM
Has everyone seen what has been achieved on each of these 5 links?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsPHvz_SAWA&feature=related
http://www.globalkast.com/products.htm
http://www.stansdream.com/products.htm
http://www.stanleymeyerwebshop.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJUtW7lStCw&list=UUEGe7GasoADRNz6wfHM91sQ

Seems as though there are some good hydrogen yields being achieved at low amperage. Can anyone verify if these guys circuits/work is genuine?

Paul Butcher
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Lynx on January 29th, 2013, 02:34 PM
Quote from Paul Butcher on January 29th, 2013, 01:36 PM
Has everyone seen what has been achieved on each of these 5 links?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsPHvz_SAWA&feature=related
http://www.globalkast.com/products.htm
http://www.stansdream.com/products.htm
http://www.stanleymeyerwebshop.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJUtW7lStCw&list=UUEGe7GasoADRNz6wfHM91sQ

Seems as though there are some good hydrogen yields being achieved at low amperage. Can anyone verify if these guys circuits/work is genuine?

Paul Butcher
I'd love to see some independent testimonials on any of these.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Amsy on January 31st, 2013, 04:12 AM
Quote from Webmug on December 4th, 2012, 07:51 AM
Yes there is 180° out of phase at the negative choke due the reverse connection to the WFC.

Measure the total inductance and capacitance of the series circuit (L1, WFC, L2) :idea: Not,  11.507Hz :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Hi Webmug,

it was not my aim in this post, to look at the hole system. BTW measuring the hole system you have to check: Main secondarys L and C, L1 and C1, WFC-C, L2 and C2 and the L and C of the Pickup coil.
 
My aim was to show, that the L1 and L2 itself is a parallel resonant circuit, and it will swing because of their own resonant frequency, this will rise the Z on the right frequency very high.
Quote from Lynx on December 4th, 2012, 08:13 AM
I really don't understand the ones insisting on photoshopping Stan's images to include an AC voltage
to the WFC as opposed to a pulsed DC voltage.
What possible purpose would that serve?
It is all described in the post.
The voltage which I painted is, that of two ACs generated by the parallel resonant circuit in the coils with their own C component. Because this pictures which meyer painted in the patent is not possible to generate with DC, and it is not possible to record such a wave over the WFC on one channel.


Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on February 1st, 2013, 10:35 AM
only a test
Quote from geenee on January 26th, 2013, 02:21 PM
Quote from enrev on January 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
Quote from DanB on January 25th, 2013, 03:04 PM
Bifilar is when you wind two wires in the same bobin cavity, in the same direction, they are side by side and not arbitrarily wound. There is two ways to wire the two coils, aiding or opposing, the magnetic fields can add to one another or subtract. If you wire then opposing, what you get is a non inductive resistance. Wire them in aiding, you will get more inductance than both because of the mutual inductace between the two coils.

You can not have one coil of a bifilar coil variable. If Stan had a variable coil in the negative side of the circuit, these coils were not bifilar wound. Most likely seperate coils. This is not to say they are not on the same magnetic core. You could have one along side the other on a ferite rod, one having a wiper arm.

It is unclear how the bifilar coils react when there is a cell in between them. The timing of the bifilar coils magnetic fields could cause some type of modulation and even thou they are wired opposing, because the fields are not the same or not at the same time, this may cause some other effect we are looking for. Stan seems to always have coils in the positive and negative sides of the cell. They also seems to always be magneticlly connected.
I'm fine with all what you said. Let's forget bifilar as it creates misunderstanding; my point is that in Stan's design L1 and L2 are always wounded in opposite directions and magnetically coupled and there is a clear reason for doing that, it's not a mistake in the patent's picture. The bifilar is just a particular way of crancking the 2 inductances because as you have noticed the way the bifilar are connected is creating 2 opposite magnetic fields, same behaviour you get with two regular coils wounded in opposite directions.
What we need to concentrate on is the diode; it opens the circuit after the initial charge of the capacitor therefore the system can only work if it is properly magnetically coupled otherwise there is no way to transfer energy from the transformer/supply to the wfc (the diode prevents that).
My conclusion is that if you put a diode but your vic transformer is not properly magnetically coupled the system cannot work and it's not a matter of tuning the parameters. This is why I'm asking how the vic transformer is being wounded by the forum friends having troubles to find resonance.
On the other side if you remove the diode the system can work but not very efficiently as there is energy flowing back from the LC to the tranformer prime. The principle is the same that happens in the tesla coil when the sparking gap closes the circuit too long because of air ionizzation. Both Dave Lawton and Ravi's replica of the wfc were working but way less efficient then Stan's one and guess what... they didn't have the diode. Also the original wfc, the one from which clearly Stan got inspired from Puharich didn't have the diode while everything else was almost the same...a part the words used by the inventors to explain their works.
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.
this's a diode and choke and frequency doubling.he used step down transformer with center tap(60hz)to explain,with bifilar choke.i don't test yet if not use transformer with center tap, bifilar choke but use only 2 regular chokes on the same core and pulse transformer without center tap. video from Tonywoodside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR0VOZMPjNg

thanks
geenee
test...someone else see this?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Matt Watts on February 1st, 2013, 12:24 PM
Quote from geenee on January 26th, 2013, 02:21 PM
this's a diode and choke and frequency doubling.he used step down transformer with center tap(60hz)to explain,with bifilar choke.i don't test yet if not use transformer with center tap, bifilar choke but use only 2 regular chokes on the same core and pulse transformer without center tap. video from Tonywoodside.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR0VOZMPjNg
Keep in mind that using a center-tapped transformer is just like using a full wave bridge rectifier.  So in essence, having two chokes on the same core, depending upon how you hook-up your wiring, you have a center-tapped transformer.  So I would expect frequency doubling same as you would get from a full wave bridge rectifier.  Nothing too exciting about that.

Now if you have half wave rectification from just a single diode, you can build a snubber network that will in-effect, recreate the missing pulses and again, you will have frequency doubling.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Lynx on February 1st, 2013, 01:19 PM
Quote from Dog-One on February 1st, 2013, 12:24 PM
Now if you have half wave rectification from just a single diode, you can build a snubber network that will in-effect, recreate the missing pulses and again, you will have frequency doubling.
A link please?
Thanks.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Matt Watts on February 1st, 2013, 05:16 PM
Quote from Lynx on February 1st, 2013, 01:19 PM
Quote from Dog-One on February 1st, 2013, 12:24 PM
Now if you have half wave rectification from just a single diode, you can build a snubber network that will in-effect, recreate the missing pulses and again, you will have frequency doubling.
A link please?
Thanks.
http://www.snubberdesign.com/rcld-snubber-circuit-design-video.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4yiW7MFWM

The idea is to take the parasitic oscillations and damping them in such a way as to fill the missing pulse with the output of the snubber network.

http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Snubber

HTH
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Lynx on February 2nd, 2013, 02:33 AM
Quote from Dog-One on February 1st, 2013, 05:16 PM
Quote from Lynx on February 1st, 2013, 01:19 PM
Quote from Dog-One on February 1st, 2013, 12:24 PM
Now if you have half wave rectification from just a single diode, you can build a snubber network that will in-effect, recreate the missing pulses and again, you will have frequency doubling.
A link please?
Thanks.
The idea is to take the parasitic oscillations and damping them in such a way as to fill the missing pulse with the output of the snubber network.
Ok, thanks.
I tried searching for this but all I can find is how to prevent parasitic oscillations
as oppsed to having them, as you say, doubling the frequency.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to such a simple most basic R/L/C/Diode schematic?
Sorry for asking but I'd love to see such a frequency doubling schematic that which
uses only one diode.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on February 2nd, 2013, 07:44 AM
Back to my question: how do you explain the way the diode works in the vic circuit? I haven't found any good explanation so far.

Jul.[/quote]View photos and follow my reasoning:
1st - simplified diagram of Meyer.
2nd - hidden details: distributed capacitance between L1 and L2 and resistance of the cell.
3rd - simplified equivalent circuit "LCR" and rightly diode to isolate the source of pulses.
Someone argues that?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: geenee on February 2nd, 2013, 07:34 PM
i back to read birth of new tech book again,i found good things in wfc hydrogen gas management system.

about delrin, constant voltage across cell, pulse frequency, gate frequency, resonant of water molecule, longitudinal wave ,resonant action, ionization ,insulated housing ... etc. i never read it clearly,fast read and not interesting cause that is advance(i just need to know a basic).we must read it again!!!!

- about electrostatic filter assembly unit(440,figure 3-45)=purify water to delrin wfc.notice that pure water only to process resonant action in resonant cavity. read in section;Impurity Extraction Process!!!!!

---------------------------------
to Faisca,
diagram for only 8xa,9xb circuit??vic 5 coils don't have bifilar cause low capacitance???


thanks
geenee
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on February 3rd, 2013, 11:04 AM
Quote from geenee on February 2nd, 2013, 07:34 PM
i back to read birth of new tech book again,i found good things in wfc hydrogen gas management system.

about delrin, constant voltage across cell, pulse frequency, gate frequency, resonant of water molecule, longitudinal wave ,resonant action, ionization ,insulated housing ... etc. i never read it clearly,fast read and not interesting cause that is advance(i just need to know a basic).we must read it again!!!!

- about electrostatic filter assembly unit(440,figure 3-45)=purify water to delrin wfc.notice that pure water only to process resonant action in resonant cavity. read in section;Impurity Extraction Process!!!!!

---------------------------------
to Faisca,
diagram for only 8xa,9xb circuit??vic 5 coils don't have bifilar cause low capacitance???


thanks
geenee
Geenee you are right about the V.I.C. 5 reels, however nothing seems further away than ever Meyer said: "bifilar winding" which aliais was an invention of Tesla.
This V.I.C. 5 reels, many of us replicate without success, I see no chance of working, it is just a transformer, low income, with three secondaries connected in series with a diode, one of the secondary (called the choke) is turned upside down, the what does that cancel was induced in the other, then leaving only the product of a single secondary. It makes no sense, seems intentional disinformation.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: CaptainKirk on February 19th, 2013, 12:24 AM
From: What is the diode doing there?

I too have issues with the diode in a resonant circuit.  I cannot get resonance in a simulator with it, unless I use a Zener Diode, and then I wonder if we are looking for a diode with a 20MV rating?

But, the diagram reminds me of this: Flyback Converter(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_converter)

I am also interested in 3 other issues brought up recently:

1) Coating the the tubes to add some insulation, maybe reduce the speed at which current can be passed.  
I WILL test this by next week.  I intend to get some paraffin wax heat it on the grill and drop my tubes into it.
(Just for one of my tubes), I will then COMPARE the output to my other tubes using the same voltage/current (just frequency driven)

2) Is it a capacitor or a resistor?  Interesting.  Considering it pushed current back after I turned off an unprotected power amplifier, and ruined the amplifier, I would say it most definitely acts like a capacitor.  But it might be worth thinking through that side of it a bit more.  (My next point)

3) The inductors can easily overwhelm the capacitor.  When it does, no current flows.  I get *nothing*.  Right now, I have a 10:1 transformer, and if I hook it up, it powers a light, and gives me 106V from 12V square pulsing.  But the minute I put a single tube on this thing.  I get nothing.  There is barely enough power to light the light (which I kept there one time).  And that reminded me, everything on the secondary side of a transformer MUST DRAW current or you get none.  That capacitor acts like an OPEN circuit until it charges and at low frequencies.  At high frequencies it acts like a short.  I have MANY tests confirming this.  The higher the frequency, the greater the current draw (without a vic).

If I use a hand made 0.352mH inductor.  I get a noticeable drop in current draw.  And I can scope the results a bit, and I know when I am going to start drawing current.  And that is when the inductor is overwhelmed by the frequency and the capacitor is now controlling the draw of current by being a short.  I am able to produce HHO at these restricted values (13.8V driving voltage, and pulling 0.65A  but it is FAIR production.  I wish I had a way to quantify.  (Kinda the next stage for me).

So, I repeat what Russ is saying.  Don't give up.  Others point out that we are learning and understanding.  Lets certainly see if we can break off some groups to test some thesis.  I believe that the inductors being used are way to large for the size of the capacitors (of course EVERYONES got different capacitors).  And I have had NO LUCK pushing 12V @ 3 AMPS  through a 10:1 transformer and making any bubbles (the MOSFET got hot!)...  Assuming I had 120V @ .3 Amps, I would have guessed that it would have worked.  I let it run until the FET got hot.  I was getting a LOT of inductance pushback (impedance).

HTH,

Kirk Out!



Quote from Faisca on February 3rd, 2013, 11:04 AM
Quote from geenee on February 2nd, 2013, 07:34 PM
i back to read birth of new tech book again,i found good things in wfc hydrogen gas management system.

about delrin, constant voltage across cell, pulse frequency, gate frequency, resonant of water molecule, longitudinal wave ,resonant action, ionization ,insulated housing ... etc. i never read it clearly,fast read and not interesting cause that is advance(i just need to know a basic).we must read it again!!!!

- about electrostatic filter assembly unit(440,figure 3-45)=purify water to delrin wfc.notice that pure water only to process resonant action in resonant cavity. read in section;Impurity Extraction Process!!!!!

---------------------------------
to Faisca,
diagram for only 8xa,9xb circuit??vic 5 coils don't have bifilar cause low capacitance???


thanks
geenee
Geenee you are right about the V.I.C. 5 reels, however nothing seems further away than ever Meyer said: "bifilar winding" which aliais was an invention of Tesla.
This V.I.C. 5 reels, many of us replicate without success, I see no chance of working, it is just a transformer, low income, with three secondaries connected in series with a diode, one of the secondary (called the choke) is turned upside down, the what does that cancel was induced in the other, then leaving only the product of a single secondary. It makes no sense, seems intentional disinformation.
Faisca,
  Agreed there is something fishy here, but not sure what.  Here are some observations.
1) We use the VIC and the B+ and B- are wired to make it a 30:1 step up transformer, but with B- and B+ Supposedly being 180 degrees out of phase.  Tony did a video, see this
Tony Explaining WaveForm from the VIC(https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U-x3PVi8wF0&list=UUWfDum41h6ZsQANVl8YE8yw#t=69s)
But my concern is where he drew in the ZERO line.  Something is wrong.  These should be Positive Pulses, not AC Sine Waves.  Although an Inductor will do that the a positive pulse, but it does not always take it to +/- the same values (Zero can be below the wave since it is DC).

2) Why work so hard stepping up the voltage if it is RESONANCE at work????  (If we can take the 300V and step it up to 3KV and 3MV even, why are we working so hard to step up 12V to 300V?)  Is this to overcome the diode?  Or is the circuit designed like a Tesla Coil or Flyback Converter, where we need to have the ENTIRE circuit have its own LOOP of wire to operate in.

  I feel we are getting very close.  I always thought that Stan discovered a way to cause Dielectric Breakdown by overwhelming the medium with a very large E-Field.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Breakzeitgeist on February 23rd, 2013, 02:08 AM


Ok.....Think like Stan maybe stan knew Tesla work well and if I were stan and I made a discovery and wanted to keep it from getting stolen like Tesla and his radio patent how would I do it?????? Also.....keep in mind that the most amazing things.... circuits whatever are always simple like everything in the universe. I think there is a very simple answer to all this....what facts do we have about what we want? I only seen Stan buggy run for real real with to many witnesses to be fake....News vid, you all seen it....see it 1 more time...you will see the alternator and a motor right behind stan on buggy at the end of vid.....sorry his circuit will not auto tune to resonance like you would want but you can achieve this with alternator and motor ...resonant  rpm.....I think its named...however there is a circuit that can do this but its not stans or tesla...more on that soon....maybe your circuits are for another device coil?? hint... alternator:-)   maybe not rewind just  remove regulator and use your circuits to drive it....biggest one you can find:-) stan said at the beginning of his talks....180 degrees out of phase the electrolysis process  begins = the other way...lol... Look we can do this I believe in you all and myself. I am because we are.... see my channel to know me more:)  https://www.youtube.com/user/Breakzeitgeist/videos?view=0&flow=grid
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on May 20th, 2013, 01:40 AM
Hy guys !i have a small video in Don's files anybody knows where the signal is coming from?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Faisca on May 20th, 2013, 01:14 PM
Quote from adys15 on May 20th, 2013, 01:40 AM
Hy guys !i have a small video in Don's files anybody knows where the signal is coming from?
seems to be the patent, which Meyer used a variac, rectified (120Hz) and pulse high frequenci.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: gpssonar on May 20th, 2013, 08:32 PM
Quote from adys15 on May 20th, 2013, 01:40 AM
Hy guys !i have a small video in Don's files anybody knows where the signal is coming from?
I don't know where it came from, But i can poduce the same signal with the polarzation process box that i built like Stan's.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on May 21st, 2013, 01:00 AM
[/quote]I don't know where it came from, But i can poduce the same signal with the polarzation process box that i built like Stan's.[/quote]Thanks,i found in the epp folder but seem so clean to be the 8xa...You are using the 8xa? like in Tony skematic?did you get stepcharge?can i use a mosfet instead of that scr because i can find it.Cheers!
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: gpssonar on May 21st, 2013, 02:54 AM
Quote from adys15 on May 21st, 2013, 01:00 AM
I don't know where it came from, But i can poduce the same signal with the polarzation process box that i built like Stan's.[/quote]Thanks,i found in the epp folder but seem so clean to be the 8xa...You are using the 8xa? like in Tony skematic?did you get stepcharge?can i use a mosfet instead of that scr because i can find it.Cheers![/quote]I'm useing the 9XA from Max Miller, I've used both SCR/2n3055 and got the same signal. That wave form, the first charges the coil, the next is the discharge to the cell.

Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on May 21st, 2013, 03:06 AM
[/quote]I'm useing the 9XA from Max Miller, I've used both SCR/2n3055 and got the same signal. That wave form, the first charges the coil, the next is the discharge to the cell.[/quote]Thanks,i am trying to use direct wall voltage so i need a powerfull swich...
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: waqas148 on June 6th, 2013, 04:15 AM
I think we have to take a look at this video , this Guy is doing some very interesting work,
this video i think somewhat relates to the VIC coil , a simple and nice demo of how gate
and frequency can affect the power output of a VIC .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3b3h2cEbHw

Notice that at 60 degree phase shift the power steps up,
instead of the magnets rotating inside the toroid, VIC uses secondary wire for magnetic flux,
and phase shift is achieved by the adjusting the frequency and gate just like Tesla's Switch configuration.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Matt Watts on June 6th, 2013, 04:38 AM
Quote from waqas148 on June 6th, 2013, 04:15 AM
I think we have to take a look at this video , this Guy is doing some very interesting work, this video i think somewhat relates to the VIC coil , a simple and nice demo of how gate and frequency can affect the power output of a VIC .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3b3h2cEbHw

Notice that at 60 degree phase shift the power steps up, instead of the magnets rotating inside the toroid, VIC uses secondary wire for magnetic flux and phase shift is achieved by the adjusting the frequency and gate just like Tesla's Switch configuration.
Looks like Tesla's "disruptive gap" which is key to his collection of "radiant energy".

See this patent as a prime example of how to capture it:
http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-514,168-generating-electric-currents
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 9th, 2013, 11:54 AM
[attachment=3827][attachment=3826]

Here are some of my scope shots from a VIC I designed a while back.

This stuff takes a tremendous amount of work to get right. I've designed 10 VIC's and still am not able to get the full effect. BTW, when I say I've designed 10 VIC's that does not mean I just wrapped some wire on a coil former. I have a notebook with page after page of math to prove it. Meyer's work is not easy to replicate. IMHO the coil design is one of the most critical parts of the system, and probably the most complex.





Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Lynx on June 9th, 2013, 12:07 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on June 9th, 2013, 11:54 AM
IMHO the coil design is one of the most critical parts of the system, and probably the most complex.
Probably why there's so few (open source) working VIC's out there.
Would you mind much to give us one such setup?
Thanks.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on June 10th, 2013, 07:45 PM
Ok, for some reason I am not seeing the last 2 posts here....Anyone know why?

I posted the following

[attachment=3829][attachment=3830]

Here are some of my scope shots from a VIC I designed a while back.

 This stuff takes a tremendous amount of work to get right. I've designed 10 VIC's and still am not able to get the full effect. BTW, when I say I've designed 10 VIC's that does not mean I just wrapped some wire on a coil former. I have a notebook with page after page of math to prove it. Meyer's work is not easy to replicate. IMHO the coil design is one of the most critical parts of the system, and probably the most complex.

Then Lynx replied

Probably why there's so few (open source) working VIC's out there.
 Would you mind much to give us one such setup?
 Thanks.
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: adys15 on June 11th, 2013, 02:04 AM
Hy guys why i canot see the new posts on this thread?
Title: RE: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Matt Watts on June 11th, 2013, 06:11 AM
Adys, you may have to use Threaded Mode.  For some reason MyBB gets wrapped around the axle on occasion.  Don't know why, but it happens.  Eventually it tends to straighten itself out.
Title: Re: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on February 28th, 2014, 02:52 AM

Question

If we want very low resistance on vics and high volts

For Vic Style 1 Core Flat bobbin  do we want a high perm  2000

For vic Style 2 Co round bobbin do we also want a very low resistance on core and wire,
thus if we can't get stainless wire can we offset copper with a Carbon less steel core which is less resistant than steel core laminates   

Looking for advanced member to feed back on this as I have feeling we can advanced it further than stan now.

Dan

Title: Re: Step by step VIC build
Post by: HMS-776 on February 28th, 2014, 06:15 PM
You do want low resistance coils-to a point.
You want to minimize the copper losses which also minimizes the coils heating.

For VIC style 1 I think it depends on first whether or not you are charging 1 WFC or multiple WFC's. And to what voltage?
You have to consider core effective area Ae, saturation flux density, frequency range, Primary and secondary voltage, inductance of the coils in relation to the load impedance etc. There is really no simple answer. There are far to many considerations in my opinion.

Keep in mind I'm limited to step charging to only 20V across a WFC with a VIC of my own design. However, I have learned some things along the way.

Choosing the correct core is a challenge itself.....That thin core used on the 5 coil VIC was actually a good choice in some ways.
The only problem is cores with those specific characteristics are not easy to come by as we have all learned. IMO they are very close to something that might work later very well given the right design.

I have had the best luck with ferrite cores, however the AL value is high and the saturation is low with ferrites. So that poses several problems. First off for a given voltage and pulse length preventing saturation requires a large number of primary turns.....The large number of primary turns means an even greater number of secondary turns if the voltage is being stepped up......This causes the secondary coils impedance to be very high, which then makes matching it to the load impossible, unless you connect multiple loads in series...Oh and lets not forget them more turns we have the more leakage inductance and coil capacitance we are going to have to deal with.....Also, if you connect all the loads in series your voltage gets divided up across each load! See where I'm going here.

It's a difficult choice with multiple variables that need to be understood and evaluated....Right now we are still trying to understand all the variables and the requirements in balancing them.

I would love to say: Get me an E core with a wide winding area, an effective area (Ae) of 600mm^2, and an AL value of about 500 and I might be able to get something working....Then again, I might just discover another problem we have not encountered yet. That seems to be the norm with all of our efforts....And for some reason I think it was also the norm for Stan...




Title: Re: Step by step VIC build
Post by: securesupplies on February 28th, 2014, 08:15 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on February 28th, 2014, 06:15 PM
You do want low resistance coils-to a point.
You want to minimize the copper losses which also minimizes the coils heating.

For VIC style 1 I think it depends on first whether or not you are charging 1 WFC or multiple WFC's. And to what voltage?
You have to consider core effective area Ae, saturation flux density, frequency range, Primary and secondary voltage, inductance of the coils in relation to the load impedance etc. There is really no simple answer. There are far to many considerations in my opinion.

Keep in mind I'm limited to step charging to only 20V across a WFC with a VIC of my own design. However, I have learned some things along the way.

Choosing the correct core is a challenge itself.....That thin core used on the 5 coil VIC was actually a good choice in some ways.
The only problem is cores with those specific characteristics are not easy to come by as we have all learned. IMO they are very close to something that might work later very well given the right design.

I have had the best luck with ferrite cores, however the AL value is high and the saturation is low with ferrites. So that poses several problems. First off for a given voltage and pulse length preventing saturation requires a large number of primary turns.....The large number of primary turns means an even greater number of secondary turns if the voltage is being stepped up......This causes the secondary coils impedance to be very high, which then makes matching it to the load impossible, unless you connect multiple loads in series...Oh and lets not forget them more turns we have the more leakage inductance and coil capacitance we are going to have to deal with.....Also, if you connect all the loads in series your voltage gets divided up across each load! See where I'm going here.

It's a difficult choice with multiple variables that need to be understood and evaluated....Right now we are still trying to understand all the variables and the requirements in balancing them.

I would love to say: Get me an E core with a wide winding area, an effective area (Ae) of 600mm^2, and an AL value of about 500 and I might be able to get something working....Then again, I might just discover another problem we have not encountered yet. That seems to be the norm with all of our efforts....And for some reason I think it was also the norm for Stan...

Current State of the Art

1 Non Carbonized - Steel Core. Vic 2
2 Magnet use to Block the Amp Bounce
3 Tpu tech of Parallel wiring to reduce amps

Links
1 http://youtu.be/WXMWvloZBgQ    ( non Carbon)
2 http://youtu.be/r8asKJNYJIY   (magnet block)
3 http://youtu.be/BtEwI8neK48      (Parallel wiring to reduce amps)
4 24-28 volt switched to Vic to reach the right volts, but stay under component limits

Comments please

Dan
Title: Re: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on December 15th, 2014, 06:48 AM
Quote from HMS-776 on May 31st, 2012, 10:31 AM
I have been looking at ferrite 43 for some time.
It has an initial Iu of 850.
More research has to be done before purchasing the material though.

I think this coil is really going to be a challenge to get working properly.

In the mean time I hope all will share their findings so we can have a clearer understanding of the circuit.

The more that is discussed and shared, the more we will learn.
Hi HMS,

Did you find a suitable core material to get the right inductance? Is this the one you had in mind? http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/materials46.htm

Here you can see the differences in inductance of my two type of cores. I think 290-360perm is the range?
Link open-source-energy.org (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1961.msg29772#msg29772)

~webmug
Title: Re: Step by step VIC build
Post by: Webmug on May 2nd, 2015, 04:01 AM
Quote from ~Russ on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it! 

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ
Hi,

I'm looking for one core set of the MN67 material, who wants to sell his core set?

Send me a pm.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Step by step VIC build
Post by: freethisone on October 8th, 2015, 09:50 AM
any one can make a choking coil if you know what you want to choke.

as for stan well its a variation of this.

FREQUENCY AND POTENTIAL.
No. 568,176 Patented Sept.


fly fly

by looking at it this way it is possible Stan had a small commutator below the cells. and a small motor.. and used the cylinders of the hho tubes themselves. im not saying that is the case.

I am saying it would be a way to open and close some of the circuits and have the tubes off instead of on some of the time, or to simply do what i say or in fact Tesla had said using multiple controls together  to get the effect...


Again its easy to think of ways to advance or recognize these simple advantages set forth, the ability to \eliminate a capacitor altogether. treating the inductor itself as the capacitor in series  with the motor, or devise or the vic coils slash choking what? .

cheers..

what i am saying is this is how you do it and why, in Tesla's words by example of proof of concept.

Tesla said the choking coil is a way to add inductance. it does not choke the flux path now does it? So as you See Its Right in front of your eyes....





Fig. 1, A designates any source
of direct current. In any branch of the cir
cuit from said source, such, for example, as
would be formed by the conductors A” A”
from the mains A’ and the conductors K K,
are placed self-induction or choking coils B
B and a circuit-controller C. This latter
may be an ordinary metallic disk or cylinder
with teeth or separated segments D D E E, of
which one or more pairs, as E E, diametrically
opposite, are integral or in electrical contact
with the body of the cylinder, so that when
the controller is inthe position in which the



The object of my present improvements is
to provide a simple, compact, and effective
apparatus for producing these effects, but
adapted more particularly for direct applica
tion to and use with existing circuits carry
ing direct currents, such as the ordinary mu
nicipal incandescent-lighting circuits. The
way in which I accomplish this, so as to meet
the requirements of practical and economical
operation under the conditions present, will
be understood from a general description of
the apparatus which I have devised. In any
given circuit, which for present purposes may
be considered as conveying direct currents
or those of substantially the character of di
rect or continuous currents and which for
general purposes of illustration may be as
sumed to be a branch or derived circuit across
the mains from any ordinary source, I inter
Serial No. 588,531}. (No model.)
pose a device or devices in the nature of a
choking-coil in order to give to the circuit a
high self-induction. I also provide a circuit
controller of any proper character that may
be operated to make and break said circuit.
Around the break or point of interruption I
place a condenser or condensers to store the
energy of the discharge-current, and in a lo
cal circuit and in series with such condenser
I place the primary of a transformer, the sec
ondary of which then becomes the source of
the currents of high frequency. It will be
apparent from a consideration of the condi
tions involved that were the cendenser to be
directly charged by the current from the
source and then discharged into the Working
circuit a very large capacity would ordinarily
be required, but by the above arrangement
the current of high electromotive force which
is induced at each break of the main circuit
furnishes the proper current for charging the
condenser, which may therefore be small and
inexpensive. Moreover, it will be observed
that since the self-induction of the circuit
through which the condenser discharges, as
wellas the capacity of the condenser itself,
may be given practically any desired value,
the frequency of. the discharge-current may
be adjusted at will.
The object sought in this invention may be
realized by speci?cally different arrange
ments of apparatus,but in the drawings hereto
annexed I have illustrated forms which are
typical of the best and most practicable means
for carrying out the invention of which I am
at present aware.