https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit

 You asked for some information about resonance.
 Damped=resistive=traditional closed looped circuits.
 Undamped=no resistive or no conduction resistance as in a Tesla coil.
 Resonance has two modes.
 
Natural resonance, meaning a tuning fork. A segmented body with geometric capacitance between he segments. this would be considered open resonance. Sustain is the ability for the fork to maintain the open resonance.

Damped resonance, meaning anything in our traditional circuits. Yes it is resonance but it is resonance that we have to constantly pay for and maintain.

Quote from ~Russ on November 30th, 2017, 11:08 PM

once you read all that and let it soak in...

So to summarize...

A large coil gives us the ability to slow everything down to a manageable rate/frequency.  Things we wouldn't ordinarily be able to see or measure can now be seen and tuned.

For every single turn of the coil, a current passed through this single winding induces a current in all the adjacent windings, but only while the current is changing in magnitude.  The idea as I comprehend it is when we sum all these currents, there ends up being more total current spread throughout the coil than we put in originally.  This total current can be pulled back out or otherwise put to work.

A coil has both parallel and series self resonant frequencies.  The series SRF is typically much higher in an inductor than the parallel SRF.  In small inductors we normally find series SRF's in the high MHz or even GHz ranges, but with a large inductor coil, the series SRF is lowered to a range we can now tune for and take advantage of.

The concept is to feed this large inductor coil via parallel SRF with high-voltage/low-current.  The low-current is actually an artifact of parallel SRF and masks the actual ohmic resistance of the wire.  We then utilize series SRF to pop out the high current manifested in the coil windings using the interwinding capacitance to shunt past the long lengths of wire.  In simple terms:  Charge the coil like an inductor and discharge it like a capacitor.

When comparing the Newman motor coil with an antenna loading coil, we actually want the exact opposite.  We don't want the Newman coil to radiate and we do want the Q-factor as flat as possible.  So interwinding capacitance seems to be actually a good thing and we can improve this even more by applying a dielectric material to the windings.

There's quite a few more nuggets in this document, but I think the above points are the highlights and the areas we should likely focus on.  The spark-type commentator I think is the main gateway to access the series SRF.  It may not be the only method but is the one Newman chose to use.  It would also seem like a good thing if the series SRF is actually a low order odd harmonic of the parallel SRF.

well put...ditto :clap:

That's right. Matt. 

And you added a straight frowerd thought I did not say be implied. 

Charge it like an inductor. (We want those induction currents)  discharge it like a cap.. (Series will do this)

The question I have is how high is the Series SRF. 

I can't find any info on inductors and self series resonance. Except that one small quote in my. Doc. 

In the end I guess testing the coil will be the only way.

I need to revise my doc and add even more. But for  now.

I just want to think where the flaws are in this thinking.
Right now. I don't see Manny. But the real world should show us any. 

~Russ

Quote from sonnet on December 2nd, 2017, 09:26 AM

well put...ditto :clap:

Did you read it? (The doc)   Did it make it Sence?  Anything that hit you as wrong? I'm quite open to discussions.  This is why I wanted to get critical feed back.

~Russ

yes russ read your document, As I have said many times im no electronics expert .yet i understand you...others should...I've seen this way of doing it for sometime and couldn't put it into the right terminology for that what you have done is really appreciated.
You see that the coil acts like a capacitor and why I didn't get it when right at the beginning you wanted to add capacitors,but I get that now. I'm safe that you see the coil as a capacitor.
To me I don't speak the language but I do understand what is going on. You describe it as i see it....
remember me saying we don't need the current....that's a long way from what you arrived at now. but my message got their...you took the blue pill and there's no going back..
I would describe it to my friends as dropping a magnet down a copper pipe, you are sustaining the magnetic field in the coil but the field is phenomenal compared to the induced field in the copper pipe. In the copper tube you are merely holding against the force of gravity on the magnet...in the winding's of our coil we are developing a stronger sustained magnetic field on the magnet rotor for no expenditure of current from the battery.
Your doing well, full credit to your grasp...Matt has it also...
Yes the true way of moving forward has to be in building the coils but built right even a competent diy'er could build this without the maths.

Cool

I still would like to see more info on coils self series resonance. If anyone finds any do tell...

~Russ

Russ I think when talking about capacitance in a coil you need to understand what is called ( parasitic capacitance )


You only get parasitic capacitance when applying high frequency to a coil.

Hope this helps.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-Parasitic-capacitance-effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_capacitance

Quote from PeakPositive on December 2nd, 2017, 01:13 PM

Russ I think when talking about capacitance in a coil you need to understand what is called ( parasitic capacitance )


You only get parasitic capacitance when applying high frequency to a coil.

Hope this helps.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-Parasitic-capacitance-effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_capacitance

Yes. I call it paracitcs in my video. And I should imply it stronger.

Also I quite sure but will need to look, 

If I have a coil that has 1F of capatance and is 16,000 H I'm. Quite sure I don't need high frequncy

The reasion why high frequncys come. In to play is due to the components having verry small paricitcs.  And those reacatances don't cancel  un till high frequncy. Normally...

~Russ

parasitic capacitance is not self capacitance and our large coil has self capacitance, we are not talking about high frequencies in the shorted coil...my understanding

Hummm, 

Ok good to define that.

"The parasitic capacitance between the turns of an inductor or other wound component is often described as self-capacitance. However, self-capacitance of a conductive object is a different phenomenon, referring to the capacitance of the object without reference to another object."

From the wiki link in peak positives post. 

And what I'm referring to is self capatance.

I will need to make that clearer in my videos. 

This dose need to be seen correctly. I even need to get clearer on it too.

Thanks guys
~Russ

My understanding is no matter how big the coil is no self-capacitance even if  you have 2 coils in parallel there is no self-capacitance only parasitic.

Only get capacitance in a coil with HF.

Stop and think what a capacitor is ! Its 2 plates separated by a gap or dielectric. With a coil its one continues circuit there is no gap between the ends of the wire.

The gap comes from one turn to the next, that means the voltage must be coming and going fast enough that voltage going one direction meets voltage going in the other direction. The induced voltage jumps the gap and collides with the other voltage in the next turn causing parasitic capacitance.

Well that is my limited knowledge of it and I may be wrong.

Hope this helps   :)

Good explanation.

So let ask you this. If there is any changing in the direction of voltage.  Can there be self capatance.?

I dont think it takes HF but rather any change in the direction of voltage? 

Also,

To add to my doc. 
We must not forget that LMD wives will propagate through the coil. Such as in this video.

https://youtu.be/6BnCUBKgnnc

I have this feeling that when we get to self series resonance.  It makes sence that the output current is an LMD wave format.

It only. Makes sence. But. I'm. Not sure about this yet.
I just wanted to mention it as others are even more in to and understand the LDM waves.  However even if your not. That video gives you quite alot of incite.

~Russ

“Good explanation.

So let ask you this. If there is any changing in the direction of voltage.  Can there be self capatance.?

I dont think it takes HF but rather any change in the direction of voltage?”

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say self-capacitance I hope you mean parasitic. :)

The thing I see is how can you measure capacitance in a coil because once you hook the meter to the 2 ends of a coil you are creating a direct short.

So if you can’t measure it with a meter is it there?

Now if you have 2 coils side by side or on top of each other we have 4 ends to the 2 coils, so if you hook a cap meter to ends of 2 diff coils and other 2 ends of the coils are open then yes we can maybe get a cap reading.

But once we short the other 2 ends together we create a short and no reading. 

I’m thinking yes there is parasitic capacitance even at LF but its too small to worry about. So is it a factor ? You be the judge.  :)

For every size coil it may be different but most important is it’s not what we think of as normal capacitance, like that we can measure with a cap meter.

Keep in mind I’m self taught from reading book, no schooling for me.

I have watched Eric Dollards videos and him talking about longitudinal waves. I think he proves electricity can travel faster then the speed of light.
I don’t remember his talking about capacitance in a coil so will need to re-watch some of his stuff.

It took me all of 4 seconds to get the correct answer from wikipedia for what parasitic capacitance is.

Quote

In electrical circuits, parasitic capacitance, or stray capacitance is an unavoidable and usually unwanted capacitance that exists between the parts of an electronic component or circuit simply because of their proximity to each other.

...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_capacitance.

PeakPositive
I believe the confusion is due to the terminology and parasitic capacitance is generally regarded as unwanted capacitance thus the term parasitic from the term parasite meaning to rely on or exploit another thing. While self-capacitance implies something obviously acts on something in and around itself thus the term SELF-capacitance which is real capacitance let's say between two wires with a potential difference between them. All you have to do is google it... what does self-xxxx mean?, what does parasitic mean?, what does capacitance mean?. It basically explains itself if you understand the English language and can google it.

So no the capacitance between two wires is not parasitic capacitance it is capacitance due to a potential difference. My theory is if you want good advice listen to someone who actually knows what their talking about like the EE here...http://www.testandmeasurementtips.com/basics-measuring-self-capacitance/.

So if i told you I measured capatance  of a coil with a cap meter...  What dose that change for you?  (I have and can mesure capatance with a standerd DMM) 

It was just the one coil I coils not. Due to it being to high I think.  OL was out of range.

Still reading on the difference between self and paricitic. So no comment there yet. ;)

But somthing tells me its the same thing. But viewed from the angle of its orgian

~Russ

One power. On that link. It is stated

"Sometimes the term self-capacitance is used to refer to the inter-winding capacitance of a coil. This is a different phenomenon altogether, not related to the topic we are discussing."

This is what peak positive is saying. 

So please do explain this "diffetent phenomenon" this quote is stating.

Becuse I agree with you. But that quote tells me otherwise.???

~Russ

I'll reference attached.
Dose this help answer your question Matt?


"The  lowest  self-resonance  in the  presence  of a  ground-plane  occurs  at  approximately  half  the frequency  of the  parallel-resonant  SRF.  It  cannot  however  be  excited in  the  absence  of a  ground plane  because  it  is  the  fundamental  series  self-resonance;  i.e., a  generator  can only  deliver  energy  to an impedance,  and so a  counterpoise  is  required  to complete  the  circuit  if the  coil  is  to be  seriesdriven.  Note  however,  that  it  is  possible  to excite  multiple-internal-reflection  resonances  at approximate  sub-multiples  of the  SRF16  (sometimes  called  sub-harmonics).  One  of these  will  be close  to  the  lowest  series  resonance, but  it  will  have  a  different  field  pattern"

another interesting thing: although i think this is for single layer coils...
"self-capacitance is substantially independent of turn-spacing provided that the coil has plenty of turns."

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ on November 29th, 2017, 04:30 PM

from the paper attached in the last post

that paper should be read by every one here. it nails a lot of points, and for me leaves the door wide open for Manny possibility's. to " break the laws"  ... laws are ant laws at all, but rather still a theory...

~Russ

I was looking at transmission lines in the falstad.com circuit emulator... if you time it just right, you can create a megavolt pulse at the far end of the transmission line with just a 12 volt input. You can make it a standing wave or vary the amount it 'travels' by adjusting frequency and inductance.

Then I got the bright idea to emulate a transmission line using a series of transformers as inductors, and capacitors connected between the transformers and ground, and 'pumping' the standing wave up and up... but it'd go berserk every time and I'd end up with gigavolt output for 12 volt, milliamp input. It was uncontrollable.

Now I'm working on a series-connected-winding analog of an autotransformer... it shunts voltage through the transformer windings preferentially such that the Meyer WFC (which, in the falstad.com circuit emulator, I have as a large capacitor with a parallel spark gap which 'blows out' easily... somewhat akin to the behavior of a spark gap with a magnet, which causes the spark to quickly 'blow out' once established) charges up to working voltage quickly, then it slowly works its way up into the higher voltage ranges where the 'dielectric' of the WFC undergoes breakdown.

Quote from ~Russ on December 2nd, 2017, 07:29 PM

So if i told you I measured capatance  of a coil with a cap meter...  What dose that change for you?  (I have and can mesure capatance with a standerd DMM) 

It was just the one coil I coils not. Due to it being to high I think.  OL was out of range.

Still reading on the difference between self and paricitic. So no comment there yet. ;)

But somthing tells me its the same thing. But viewed from the angle of its orgian

~Russ

Well Russ if you are getting a cap reading on your meter of a standalone coil then I would say its Parasitic not self-capacitance. :)

It took me all of 4 seconds to come up with that answer. Pretty smart of me would you agree…lol…Ha Ha Ha

:)   :)   :)

Peak, have a look at this one.

Open ended coil transferring fairly serious power.  It's one of those experiments where it's very hard to believe until you actually see it for yourself.

The reason I bring it up is because very few of us consider just how much capacitance there is between windings--a lot more than you would suspect.  With a Newman coil, if it were open ended, I'll bet a lot of people would immediate suspect some kind of trickery.

finally found my other RF reference!

It NAILS my points Exactly. !!!

I need to revise my doc...

and the best part is the low F range! we can now calculate the SRF to an approximation.

the funny thing is that some of those conclusions came from the patent office testing guys haha...

good deal... i'm not crazy lol

~Russ

Civ. A. No. 83-0001

Quote

The NBS investigators, too, detected, but made no attempt to measure, the radio-frequency power "spikes" Dr. Hastings thought might be so significant. They attributed them to the sparks emitted by the commutator as it rotated through a cycle (causing deterioration of the non-conductive spacers on its periphery), regarded them as artifacts which interfered with accurate measurements of power input, and filtered them out with a low-pass filter on the input side of the device. Consequently, they made no attempt to ascertain their effect, if any, upon the batteries. Nor did they make any measurements of battery life.[10] They were given no reason to do so.

Newman presented no rebuttal. The cross-examination of Dr. Hebner sought only to point out that Newman's own wiring diagrams show no grounds or filters, and that by grounding the device and endeavoring to eliminate all RF "noise," NBS omitted from its calculus of "output" the most significant of its byproducts, namely, the electromagnetic energy by which it may possibly be rejuvenating its power supply.

Quote

By far the most significant increment to "output" in a Newman device, however, according to Dr. Hastings, is to be found in certain anomalous "back spikes" of current it generates in the megaHerz range, which Dr. Hastings asserts he has perceived on an oscilloscope, listened to on (and used to power) a transistor radio, and observed to heat a beaker of water when channeled through a resistor immersed in it.

Dr. Hastings advanced no explanation for the presence of the "back spike" current. He hypothesized that it originates in the coil, although the configuration of the commutator could affect it. These "back spikes" can be detected in the circuit between the battery pack and the commutator, he said, and they may somehow be responsible for the phenomenon all three of plaintiff's witnesses said they had observed on several occasions: a virtually indefinite extension of the work life (in effect, a "recharging") of ostensibly non-rechargeable batteries used to power a Newman motor which would, while in operation, perform work at least equal to that performed by commercially available electric motors, using (when measured by ammeter) a minuscule fraction of the current they had drawn in doing so.

Just more interesting stuff...

~Russ

That video you posted of Joe using the thermal current meter is all you need to know.  There's real power there that can only be properly measured by the accumulation of heat.  Of course today we have Chinese oscilloscopes that can easily measure what comes back out from these large coils.  Well, as long as they don't go way above the input voltage limit.  :-P