Quote from TeaJunky on July 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM

Hey Russ,
I just broke the tip of the tapered end mill, I was being very careful.
One thing I did that may have not been the right thing to do was to pre drill with a
.089" drill.
 I think it can be reground, maybe we can ask about the predrilling I did and maybe they can grind it a little different to accomidate that hole.
Soory, Thanks, Scot

hi scot when the hole is that small it would be aswell to use the end mill on its own i take it there is no tip cutter on your end mill now if the end mill will still do your job i would grind the front of it flat and make your hole just big enought to let it start this new hole will allow for the missing tip cutters and it will act as a slot mill

Hi Teajunky,
I thought about that but I wouldn't be able to go all the way to the end because it's
broke back further than .100"
 Beside that the mill is carbide and cutting a good tip on it would be pretty difficult.
I don't have a diamomd grinder and the green grinding wheel isn't accurate enough.
Got more ideas Thanks, ScotHi again,
Maybe a ream would work better?
Thanks, Scot

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 12:40 PM

Quote from TeaJunky on July 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM

Hey Russ,
I just broke the tip of the tapered end mill, I was being very careful.
One thing I did that may have not been the right thing to do was to pre drill with a
.089" drill.
 I think it can be reground, maybe we can ask about the predrilling I did and maybe they can grind it a little different to accomidate that hole.
Soory, Thanks, Scot

hi scot when the hole is that small it would be aswell to use the end mill on its own i take it there is no tip cutter on your end mill now if the end mill will still do your job i would grind the front of it flat and make your hole just big enought to let it start this new hole will allow for the missing tip cutters and it will act as a slot mill

Hi Teajunky,
I thought about that but I wouldn't be able to go all the way to the end because it's
broke back further than .100"
 Beside that the mill is carbide and cutting a good tip on it would be pretty difficult.
I don't have a diamomd grinder and the green grinding wheel isn't accurate enough.
Got more ideas Thanks, Scot

Sorry Scot unfortunately nothing springs to mind at the moment I would think the margin for error for that taper is very small for it to be successfull

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 12:40 PM

Quote from TeaJunky on July 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM

Hey Russ,
I just broke the tip of the tapered end mill, I was being very careful.
One thing I did that may have not been the right thing to do was to pre drill with a
.089" drill.
 I think it can be reground, maybe we can ask about the predrilling I did and maybe they can grind it a little different to accomidate that hole.
Soory, Thanks, Scot

hi scot when the hole is that small it would be aswell to use the end mill on its own i take it there is no tip cutter on your end mill now if the end mill will still do your job i would grind the front of it flat and make your hole just big enought to let it start this new hole will allow for the missing tip cutters and it will act as a slot mill

Hi Teajunky,
I thought about that but I wouldn't be able to go all the way to the end because it's
broke back further than .100"
 Beside that the mill is carbide and cutting a good tip on it would be pretty difficult.
I don't have a diamomd grinder and the green grinding wheel isn't accurate enough.
Got more ideas Thanks, ScotHi again,
Maybe a ream would work better?
Thanks, Scot

egh, that sucks. well. its bound to happen... its tinny.

ill get another one to you. just use that one for further testing.

PS. i would have also just pree drilled it also. so maybe it had to Manny chips in it???  
thanks, ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 01:12 PM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 12:40 PM

Quote from TeaJunky on July 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM

Hey Russ,
I just broke the tip of the tapered end mill, I was being very careful.
One thing I did that may have not been the right thing to do was to pre drill with a
.089" drill.
 I think it can be reground, maybe we can ask about the predrilling I did and maybe they can grind it a little different to accomidate that hole.
Soory, Thanks, Scot

hi scot when the hole is that small it would be aswell to use the end mill on its own i take it there is no tip cutter on your end mill now if the end mill will still do your job i would grind the front of it flat and make your hole just big enought to let it start this new hole will allow for the missing tip cutters and it will act as a slot mill

Hi Teajunky,
I thought about that but I wouldn't be able to go all the way to the end because it's
broke back further than .100"
 Beside that the mill is carbide and cutting a good tip on it would be pretty difficult.
I don't have a diamomd grinder and the green grinding wheel isn't accurate enough.
Got more ideas Thanks, ScotHi again,
Maybe a ream would work better?
Thanks, Scot

egh, that sucks. well. its bound to happen... its tinny.

ill get another one to you. just use that one for further testing.

PS. i would have also just pree drilled it also. so maybe it had to Manny chips in it???  
thanks, ~Russ

The only problem with predrilling is if the pilot hole is not big enought it will try and take a bigger chip out than the end mill is able for at the very start and it is not a tapered pilot hole which is the other problem

Could you use a good drill bit sharpener on the bit that broke, then continue the tapered hole, as far as it will go, then when you receive the next bit from Russ, finish it out, may save breaking the new bit as well.:D

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 8th, 2012, 01:37 PM

Could you use a good drill bit sharpener on the bit that broke, then continue the tapered hole, as far as it will go, then when you receive the next bit from Russ, finish it out, may save breaking the new bit as well.:D

yeah, that is what i was thinking. clean it up finish the taper ream and then just use the new one for the finish... if it works as i dont know how bad the bit is...

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 01:12 PM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 12:40 PM

Quote from TeaJunky on July 8th, 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM

Hey Russ,
I just broke the tip of the tapered end mill, I was being very careful.
One thing I did that may have not been the right thing to do was to pre drill with a
.089" drill.
 I think it can be reground, maybe we can ask about the predrilling I did and maybe they can grind it a little different to accomidate that hole.
Soory, Thanks, Scot

hi scot when the hole is that small it would be aswell to use the end mill on its own i take it there is no tip cutter on your end mill now if the end mill will still do your job i would grind the front of it flat and make your hole just big enought to let it start this new hole will allow for the missing tip cutters and it will act as a slot mill

Hi Teajunky,
I thought about that but I wouldn't be able to go all the way to the end because it's
broke back further than .100"
 Beside that the mill is carbide and cutting a good tip on it would be pretty difficult.
I don't have a diamomd grinder and the green grinding wheel isn't accurate enough.
Got more ideas Thanks, Scot
Hi again,
Maybe a ream would work better?
Thanks, Scot

egh, that sucks. well. its bound to happen... its tinny.

ill get another one to you. just use that one for further testing.

PS. i would have also just pree drilled it also. so maybe it had to Manny chips in it???  
thanks, ~Russ

I;m sorry i didnt see the thread earlier, I was in the tool & die trade for 35 years, having all types of machinery, CNC and others. the problem you had was you were probably useing a bridgeport or similar machine. these machines are NOT rigid enough to handle what you are doing. when you use a tapered end mill and doing it by hand the endmill wants to try to screw itself into the hole and its not possible to react to it fast enough by hand unless you lock the head down and very slowly crank the table up to where you needed to finish at. had all sorts of CNC equipment and believe me its a pain to do even with the right equipment...

Ken I'm sorry i didnt see the thread earlier, I was in the tool & die trade for 35 years, having all types of machinery, CNC and others. the problem you had was you were probably useing a bridgeport or similar machine. these machines are NOT rigid enough to handle what you are doing. when you use a tapered end mill and doing it by hand the endmill wants to try to screw itself into the hole and its not possible to react to it fast enough by hand unless you lock the head down and very slowly crank the table up to where you needed to finish at. had all sorts of CNC equipment and believe me its a pain to do even with the right equipment...

KenI;m sorry i didnt see the thread earlier, I was in the tool & die trade for 35 years, having all types of machinery, CNC and others. the problem you had was you were probably useing a bridgeport or similar machine. these machines are NOT rigid enough to handle what you are doing. when you use a tapered end mill and doing it by hand the endmill wants to try to screw itself into the hole and its not possible to react to it fast enough by hand unless you lock the head down and very slowly crank the table up to where you needed to finish at. had all sorts of CNC equipment and believe me its a pain to do even with the right equipment...

Ken

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 8th, 2012, 01:37 PM

Could you use a good drill bit sharpener on the bit that broke, then continue the tapered hole, as far as it will go, then when you receive the next bit from Russ, finish it out, may save breaking the new bit as well.:D

yeah, that is what i was thinking. clean it up finish the taper ream and then just use the new one for the finish... if it works as i dont know how bad the bit is...

~Russ

I have a feeling Scot will get it sorted (I got a new job a month ago but i am now 300mile from my workshop at home which has hamperd my progress as i had received my ceramic and stainless just days before i started the job) I will say good luck for now and wish you all well

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 8th, 2012, 01:37 PM

Could you use a good drill bit sharpener on the bit that broke, then continue the tapered hole, as far as it will go, then when you receive the next bit from Russ, finish it out, may save breaking the new bit as well.:D

yeah, that is what i was thinking. clean it up finish the taper ream and then just use the new one for the finish... if it works as i dont know how bad the bit is...

~Russ

Hi, All
Teajunky hit the nail i think on the head.
The pilot hole allowed the the mill to cut to much or to dig into the side and pull
too hard on the mill and the burr left broke it.
I don't want to use it for fear that it may scar the side of the taper, it has to be polished.
I think a new tapered ream would work better or i could plug the hole i drilled and
then try the new mill.
What do you think? Thanks,Scot

Quote from scot on July 8th, 2012, 07:30 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on July 8th, 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 8th, 2012, 01:37 PM

Could you use a good drill bit sharpener on the bit that broke, then continue the tapered hole, as far as it will go, then when you receive the next bit from Russ, finish it out, may save breaking the new bit as well.:D

yeah, that is what i was thinking. clean it up finish the taper ream and then just use the new one for the finish... if it works as i dont know how bad the bit is...

~Russ

Hi, All
Teajunky hit the nail i think on the head.
The pilot hole allowed the the mill to cut to much or to dig into the side and pull
too hard on the mill and the burr left broke it.
I don't want to use it for fear that it may scar the side of the taper, it has to be polished.
I think a new tapered ream would work better or i could plug the hole i drilled and
then try the new mill.
What do you think? Thanks,Scot

Your probably right Scot, do what you think is best. :D

Hello All, If I may add something here,,,Mr:Ken Black is absolutely correct is what he said in his post. It is very difficult, if not almost impossible to do this on a "manuel" style lathe or a small home style lathe for the simple reasons that was mentioned by Ken. The small manual lathes are not built for this type of tight tolerances or work to be honest. Drilling a pilot hole with a small drill bit is a big NO-NO, as soon as you start to drill a pilot hole with such a small drill bit it will wonder of to one side slightly before drilling, causing the hole to be a few thousands of centered, thus ruining your work. If you wanted to drill a small pilot hole you would have to use a small center drill to do it, but for this application I do not think you need one. The end mill that I supplied should be able to cut into the SS (with the proper lathe and coolant), I will stress again that this should be done on a CNC lathe. No disrespect to Scot, I know he is doing his best with the equipment at his disposal, this is a very difficult part of the injector to make even when using a CNC. My hats of to you Scot for building the injector it is a very difficult part to make, I'm not trying to tell you or anyone here what to do, I'm simply sharing my experience and knowledge in machining and trying to help with this difficult part.

Bob.

Hi everyone.

Good to see Art posting.

I am working on an injector which is more like what he describes. I tried to simplify the design as I am no machinist. Also made mine from hex rod as he suggested and it looks great.

[attachment=2024]

Still have a good amount of work to do and things to buy before I can start testing.

Quote from HMS-776 on July 30th, 2012, 04:34 PM

Hi everyone.

Good to see Art posting.

I am working on an injector which is more like what he describes. I tried to simplify the design as I am no machinist. Also made mine from hex rod as he suggested and it looks great.



Still have a good amount of work to do and things to buy before I can start testing.

Looks excellent HMS. :D:cool:

Soo,

Planing on making one of these injectors to fit a horizontal shaft single cylinder motor. I work in a place that manufactures Pharma products, plenty of stainless and specialty plastics. Plenty of knowelge base around here with machineing equipment, including ones that use g-code.

I was wondering if someone has an idea of what plastics would work inplace of the ceramic? Teflon? Delrin? Bakelite? I'm thinking it doesn't need to be exactly to stans plans as long as you have a resonating frequency for your VIC and injector capacitance.

Does anybody know the frequency that Stan uses the most? I've heard that something like 42.~ kHz is resonant freq for water and causes interesting results but as stated in other threads, stans freq is audible 0-18 kHz. Although a microwave oven works because of the 2.43 gHz at 1500 W.

Quote from VWType181 on July 31st, 2012, 10:12 PM

Soo,

Planing on making one of these injectors to fit a horizontal shaft single cylinder motor. I work in a place that manufactures Pharma products, plenty of stainless and specialty plastics. Plenty of knowelge base around here with machineing equipment, including ones that use g-code.

I was wondering if someone has an idea of what plastics would work inplace of the ceramic? Teflon? Delrin? Bakelite? I'm thinking it doesn't need to be exactly to stans plans as long as you have a resonating frequency for your VIC and injector capacitance.

Does anybody know the frequency that Stan uses the most? I've heard that something like 42.~ kHz is resonant freq for water and causes interesting results but as stated in other threads, stans freq is audible 0-18 kHz. Although a microwave oven works because of the 2.43 gHz at 1500 W.

I think porcelain although being a ceramic would work, you can mold it and fire it. Plastic peek is used on hotends of 3d printers.:D

If you are actually planning on installing and testing it on an engine you'll need something that can withstand the heat, and something with a low dielectric constant. Macor is what Meyer used, and if you read up on it you'll see why. Easy to machine, high heat toleration, low dielectric constant, and low expansion coefficient. The downside is that it's expensive.

You can buy it on ebay from time to time. Expect a 1/2" dia x 12" rod stock to cost about 80 bucks.

I'll have to look into that, sounds like what I want. Teflon has very high electrical resistance and 350 deg C, but it is very soft, don't know if that will handle the power stroke of a ICM. Even though the hole at the end of the injector is only 1/10th of an inch. Have you guys seen this website? The company's name is Professional Plastics, you can get their remnants cheap, but its a hodge podge. In the description it says the dimentions of the pieces in the grab bag, but great prices. They also have Macor.

http://www.professionalplastics.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/curpage/2/carfnbr/24

Quote from HMS-776 on July 30th, 2012, 04:34 PM

Hi everyone.

Good to see Art posting.

I am working on an injector which is more like what he describes. I tried to simplify the design as I am no machinist. Also made mine from hex rod as he suggested and it looks great.



Still have a good amount of work to do and things to buy before I can start testing.

looks really good my friend! ~Russ

Quote from VWType181 on August 1st, 2012, 10:43 PM

I'll have to look into that, sounds like what I want. Teflon has very high electrical resistance and 350 deg C, but it is very soft, don't know if that will handle the power stroke of a ICM. Even though the hole at the end of the injector is only 1/10th of an inch. Have you guys seen this website? The company's name is Professional Plastics, you can get their remnants cheap, but its a hodge podge. In the description it says the dimentions of the pieces in the grab bag, but great prices. They also have Macor.

http://www.professionalplastics.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/curpage/2/carfnbr/24

interesting. stuff.

Quote

Does anybody know the frequency that Stan uses the most? I've heard that something like 42.~ kHz is resonant freq for water and causes interesting results but as stated in other threads, stans freq is audible 0-18 kHz. Although a microwave oven works because of the 2.43 gHz at 1500 W.

audio range from what we know. under 10khz..

~Russ

cheapest i found  Macor

http://www.astromet.com/macor.htm
.5x 6” $63.00

http://www.ceramicproductsinc.com/macor.html
.5 x12” $ 81

What do you guys think about water pressure through the injector?

Meyer's TB states up to 125psi. However, when we are testing and the injector is not installed in an engine we want to be careful. If the injector works and we push too much water through it who knows how big that flame will be.

Just to be on the safe side I want to use a lower pressure and flow rate.
My only question is: What pressure would be required to push water through the .01" gap?

Right now I'm looking at some standard fuel pumps which put out about 10psi max@ 30GPH. I will be using 3/8 ID fuel hose and fittings.

Quote from HMS-776 on August 2nd, 2012, 05:04 PM

What do you guys think about water pressure through the injector?

Meyer's TB states up to 125psi. However, when we are testing and the injector is not installed in an engine we want to be careful. If the injector works and we push too much water through it who knows how big that flame will be.

Just to be on the safe side I want to use a lower pressure and flow rate.
My only question is: What pressure would be required to push water through the .01" gap?

Right now I'm looking at some standard fuel pumps which put out about 10psi max@ 30GPH. I will be using 3/8 ID fuel hose and fittings.

You could adjust a pressure washer to lower pressures, could work for this.:D

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on August 2nd, 2012, 03:54 AM

cheapest i found  Macor

http://www.astromet.com/macor.htm
.5x 6” $63.00

http://www.ceramicproductsinc.com/macor.html
.5 x12” $ 81

I've seen these prices online as well, however the outside diameter of the ceramic is greater than .5", if you look where the o-ring cavity area is, the diameter is .565", kind of a bummer for us to have to buy 5/8 - $109!

Quote from HMS-776 on August 2nd, 2012, 05:04 PM

What do you guys think about water pressure through the injector?

Meyer's TB states up to 125psi. However, when we are testing and the injector is not installed in an engine we want to be careful. If the injector works and we push too much water through it who knows how big that flame will be.

Just to be on the safe side I want to use a lower pressure and flow rate.
My only question is: What pressure would be required to push water through the .01" gap?

Right now I'm looking at some standard fuel pumps which put out about 10psi max@ 30GPH. I will be using 3/8 ID fuel hose and fittings.

I thought that big red tank on top of the dune buggy was sealed and heated and thats where the 125 psi pressure came from. ?

[attachment=2043]

Meyer actually used a fuel pump to pump the water.

Don saw the buggy and confirmed this, he also said the pump was a marine type fuel pump. The Tech Brief also confirms that a pump was used. (See attached picture from chapter 3 of the Tech Brief above).

That plastic harwood tank would not be able to hold steam without melting. All the steam resonator does it heat the water enough to keep it from freezing.