Quote from HMS-776 on May 30th, 2012, 09:36 PM

BAM5

I may be wrong in my interpretation but I believe the quenching slots should be at a 30 degree angle (Stan states 30 degrees from center in the drawing). I think the angle causes the water to swirl and completly fill the space between the voltage zones. Any air pockets could result in arcing which will drain the charge off.

Another thing with these injectors, when you think about them. The injection and compression strokes of an engine are pretty short, combine this with varying RPM's (automobile engines) and it seems likely that these injectors could have timing issues. Think about it, you have to inject the water, split the water, and then get a spark to occur at the right time. If there is water between the gap it could short out the spark energy and prevent a spark all together. If a conventional distributor is used I don't think it would even be possible to get a spark duration long enough to split the water and ignite the gasses at the right time. Anyways, Stan must have had a more complex system in the end.

I thought about the timing too.  I almost think the resonant chambers have to be producing gas all the time.  The amount of gas could be varied by timed water pressure(or vacuume?), and a surge or spike in voltage when the gasses need to be ignited for power stroke.

Nate

Quote from firepinto on May 30th, 2012, 09:43 PM

Quote from HMS-776 on May 30th, 2012, 09:36 PM

BAM5

I may be wrong in my interpretation but I believe the quenching slots should be at a 30 degree angle (Stan states 30 degrees from center in the drawing). I think the angle causes the water to swirl and completly fill the space between the voltage zones. Any air pockets could result in arcing which will drain the charge off.

Another thing with these injectors, when you think about them. The injection and compression strokes of an engine are pretty short, combine this with varying RPM's (automobile engines) and it seems likely that these injectors could have timing issues. Think about it, you have to inject the water, split the water, and then get a spark to occur at the right time. If there is water between the gap it could short out the spark energy and prevent a spark all together. If a conventional distributor is used I don't think it would even be possible to get a spark duration long enough to split the water and ignite the gasses at the right time. Anyways, Stan must have had a more complex system in the end.

I thought about the timing too.  I almost think the resonant chambers have to be producing gas all the time.  The amount of gas could be varied by timed water pressure(or vacuume?), and a surge or spike in voltage when the gasses need to be ignited for power stroke.

Nate

dont forget that the gas may ignight on its own via compression if the mix is right?!?! and look at the expansion of the gas...

i like the swirling :) idea! lol i think he has it drawn right but that may be a change we can make :)  

just some thoughts...
 ~Russ

From This document http://www.scribd.com/doc/4110288/Run-Car-on-Water-stanley-meyer-resonant-electrolysis-cell-system-collection some people may have already seen this so sorry about that. there looks to be a number of things going on here i am not seeing the introduction of the others gases. this is a extract from the document (The system starts with a normal 12V car battery and a tank full of water (salt, frsh or distilled). Under computer control, the Voltage Intensifier Circuit is energised by the battery to generate high voltage pulses at a very lowcurrent, <1 milliamp, the voltage being responsive to the throttle. Simultaneously,water and ambient air are mixed into a water mist which is injected with laser energy and fed to each fuel injector. There it is subject to high voltage pulses which, virtually simultaneously, lead to the separation of the hydrogen and oxygen gases, and the explosive energy enhancement. A special high voltage pulse, applied at the exit of the fuel injector, ignites the gases as they enter the cylinder.) The words " injected with laser energy" Hmm. all fuels have some kind of treatment look up ingredient Diseal,Petrol so why would water be any different.

Quote from TeaJunky on May 31st, 2012, 03:13 AM

From This document http://www.scribd.com/doc/4110288/Run-Car-on-Water-stanley-meyer-resonant-electrolysis-cell-system-collection some people may have already seen this so sorry about that. there looks to be a number of things going on here i am not seeing the introduction of the others gases. this is a extract from the document (The system starts with a normal 12V car battery and a tank full of water (salt, frsh or distilled). Under computer control, the Voltage Intensifier Circuit is energised by the battery to generate high voltage pulses at a very lowcurrent, <1 milliamp, the voltage being responsive to the throttle. Simultaneously,water and ambient air are mixed into a water mist which is injected with laser energy and fed to each fuel injector. There it is subject to high voltage pulses which, virtually simultaneously, lead to the separation of the hydrogen and oxygen gases, and the explosive energy enhancement. A special high voltage pulse, applied at the exit of the fuel injector, ignites the gases as they enter the cylinder.) The words " injected with laser energy" Hmm. all fuels have some kind of treatment look up ingredient Diseal,Petrol so why would water be any different.

there are to many different variations/stages of stans system so to rule out a water only injection is unlikely. the gas possessor and ambient air and recycled Exhaust gas's can inter from the intake...

always KISS!

ps. there is some photos/patent drawings of the injectors with all this and laser injection... there in the patents. cant remember witch one...

ps. got your email! thanks!

~Russ

TeaJunky,

There are 2 types of Injectors:

One type had both gasses and water which traveled through it. It had two  seperate inlets and porting, One for gas and one for water.  This injector is explained and shown in Canadian Patent 2,067,735.

The injector we have drawings of is a water only injector. In this application the gasses were sucked into the engine via engine vacuum. A specially made adapter mounted below the throttle body had connections for the hoses which carried the different gasses.

Firepinto-About the injectors and timing. I think the ignition timing in this system would have to be designed specifically for the application, I don't believe a conventional distributor would work. I also think it would require 1 VIC coil per injector because of timing.

Thank you guys i found what i was looking for including that Canadian patent the water injector is where i intend to focus my effords I am a mechtronics engineer which is a combination of mechanical,electronic engineering an some programming one thing i would say is in my view an old diseal engine with the a simple injection system and 1 cylinder is where i would start, my reasons timing is already sorted an easy to fine tune if needed,the water will not effect the injector pump to much for the testing period run some oil through the pump when finished with water on days of test, the voltage can be introduce from equipment on a workbence to the new water injector i only need to make one injector, and i have the engine. i will make and bence test the injector first with this in mind. I will need to make the gas gun as well when i get to the engine testing stage, just finding my feet here at the moment this is the plan.

Quote from HMS-776 on May 31st, 2012, 04:13 PM

TeaJunky,

There are 2 types of Injectors:

One type had both gasses and water which traveled through it. It had two  seperate inlets and porting, One for gas and one for water.  This injector is explained and shown in Canadian Patent 2,067,735.

The injector we have drawings of is a water only injector. In this application the gasses were sucked into the engine via engine vacuum. A specially made adapter mounted below the throttle body had connections for the hoses which carried the different gasses.

Firepinto-About the injectors and timing. I think the ignition timing in this system would have to be designed specifically for the application, I don't believe a conventional distributor would work. I also think it would require 1 VIC coil per injector because of timing.

I agree, I dont think a distributor as we know them now will work.  It makes me wonder where he planned on mounting all those VIC coil boxes in a car.

[/quote]I agree, I dont think a distributor as we know them now will work.  It makes me wonder where he planned on mounting all those VIC coil boxes in a car.[/quote]Found this in Meyer 1992 Global conference video: As expected there is 1 VIC coil per injector. Too bad the still picture is really crappy, but most of it is understandable. The picture also shows a laser distributor, probable used only for timing purposes. :0[attachment=1583]

Quote from HMS-776 on May 31st, 2012, 10:16 PM

I agree, I dont think a distributor as we know them now will work.  It makes me wonder where he planned on mounting all those VIC coil boxes in a car.[/quote]Found this in Meyer 1992 Global conference video: As expected there is 1 VIC coil per injector. Too bad the still picture is really crappy, but most of it is understandable. The picture also shows a laser distributor, probable used only for timing purposes. :0[/quote]a bit different but here is another diagram showing the parts of the injection system...

you can read about it in the news letter #9... attached...

[attachment=1585]

also please keep in mined we can possibly to timing in a different manner...
 
enjoy! thanks! ~Russ

Nice Post

I will attempt to push it further please comment

There are thread for Gas Management system and ECU ECM ETC

Please look at this pic.

Dan

As for timing concerning the electrcail part of this system the contol technolgy including software we have today allows for many options and new approches to that element of the system. building and testing this injector is where we might find some answers be them good or bad on how close he was to getting all this to work  

Quote from TeaJunky on June 1st, 2012, 02:21 AM

As for timing concerning the electrcail part of this system the contol technolgy including software we have today allows for many options and new approches to that element of the system. building and testing this injector is where we might find some answers be them good or bad on how close he was to getting all this to work

agreed. i plan on making 1 injector and doing the testes... then applying it to the gen set... its the best bet for the injector and S'tans fraud fate! lol

i believe it will work... its just how well... :) we will see. soon i hope!

ceramic already being made, stainless steal parts next and after BAMs5 building it in 3d we know its a good fit and where the problems are... i hope... :)

im looking forward to it! :)

its kinda a make or brake?!?!
~Russ

Well, all the coils are doing is applying a scaling function to the voltage right? Couldn't you make the coils super small since they're dealing with such a small amount of amperage? I bet it'd even be possible to add the vic into the injector itself! Or at least make it a modular part of the injector... I really want to sit down and design a v2 injector. Also, arn't distributor caps the same as they have been? I know my 96 pathfinder has a regular mechanical distributor cap with rotar arm etc... I guess however that is kinda old.

Also, I'm curious about "injecting laser energy" into the water mist before it gets separated into HHO. I'm not sure that it's possible for the HHO atoms that are a part of the water molecule to absorb the em energy. Since the electrons are mostly part of the oxygen atom then you'd need a completely different wavelength to excite the electrons since they're in different orbitals than they would be separated. Although I suppose that the "laser energy" would have an effect on the ambient air that has the oxygen in its raw state... Wait. Oxygen usually buds up with another oxygen atom in the atmosphere making O2 and as I've questioned before, since the oxygen is in a molecule and not stand alone, is the light able to raise the electron to the energized state?

Oh another thing that's been bothering me. Why do we keep using the term "laser energy"? Did stan use an actual laser in his implementation? If so is it important that we use a laser? Where what it outputs is a photon with the same wavelength and same direction as all the photons it outputs? Because what Russ has built wouldn't provide the same effect. An led will produce a somewhat consistent range of wavelength photons but their directions would be completely scattered and chaotic. The only thing that would be a factor I think would be the wavelength. It takes a very specific wavelength light to raise an electron of a certain orbital to an excited state. I'm not sure how consistent the wavelength of an led is, but the wavelength of a laser is 100% consistent.

I've also been thinking... Is it possible to do the same function as Stan's resonant cavity using only light? All light is is an em wave... and all stan's resonant cavity does is oscillate an em field at a certain frequency... So is it theoretically possible to do the same with light since light can have a frequency too? I bet if you got the right frequency stan's cavity puts off a radio signal at the same frequency as it's oscillating... Just something I was thinking about. However it may not be efficient... It may take more amperage to send out an em wave. However I suppose it could be used in weapon application, but that's not our purpose.

Well that turned into quite the post.

Also! I found something that I thought may be of interest. Possibly to replace the vortex separator?
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.14ecfc66e7a40c1af8500f199420d1ca/?vgnextoid=43cb5242ade5c110VgnVCM10000032a71dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=EN&Keyword=FUEL+%2F+AIR+SEPARATORS&Wtky=FUEL+%2F+AIR+SEPARATORS#

They're used for boat fuel lines, but I don't see why you can't fiddle with it to catch the venting of the "air" (the hho) and use it for fuel. The water then would be recycled back into the system.

And yeah! 3d modeling usually helps with visualizing and identifying dimensional bugs.

Quote from BAM5 on June 1st, 2012, 04:22 AM

And yeah! 3d modeling usually helps with visualizing and identifying dimensional bugs.

Sure does. :D

Quote from BAM5 on June 1st, 2012, 03:15 AM

Well, all the coils are doing is applying a scaling function to the voltage right? Couldn't you make the coils super small since they're dealing with such a small amount of amperage? I bet it'd even be possible to add the vic into the injector itself! Or at least make it a modular part of the injector... I really want to sit down and design a v2 injector. Also, arn't distributor caps the same as they have been? I know my 96 pathfinder has a regular mechanical distributor cap with rotar arm etc... I guess however that is kinda old.

Also, I'm curious about "injecting laser energy" into the water mist before it gets separated into HHO. I'm not sure that it's possible for the HHO atoms that are a part of the water molecule to absorb the em energy. Since the electrons are mostly part of the oxygen atom then you'd need a completely different wavelength to excite the electrons since they're in different orbitals than they would be separated. Although I suppose that the "laser energy" would have an effect on the ambient air that has the oxygen in its raw state... Wait. Oxygen usually buds up with another oxygen atom in the atmosphere making O2 and as I've questioned before, since the oxygen is in a molecule and not stand alone, is the light able to raise the electron to the energized state?

Oh another thing that's been bothering me. Why do we keep using the term "laser energy"? Did stan use an actual laser in his implementation? If so is it important that we use a laser? Where what it outputs is a photon with the same wavelength and same direction as all the photons it outputs? Because what Russ has built wouldn't provide the same effect. An led will produce a somewhat consistent range of wavelength photons but their directions would be completely scattered and chaotic. The only thing that would be a factor I think would be the wavelength. It takes a very specific wavelength light to raise an electron of a certain orbital to an excited state. I'm not sure how consistent the wavelength of an led is, but the wavelength of a laser is 100% consistent.

I've also been thinking... Is it possible to do the same function as Stan's resonant cavity using only light? All light is is an em wave... and all stan's resonant cavity does is oscillate an em field at a certain frequency... So is it theoretically possible to do the same with light since light can have a frequency too? I bet if you got the right frequency stan's cavity puts off a radio signal at the same frequency as it's oscillating... Just something I was thinking about. However it may not be efficient... It may take more amperage to send out an em wave. However I suppose it could be used in weapon application, but that's not our purpose.

Well that turned into quite the post.

well done on all your drawings once we figure out what is going on here there will probally be more than one way to create the same effects. technolgy alway evolves  

BAM5 well done on the drawings if we can find out what is going on here i would think there will be other ways of acheiving the same results. technolgy always evolves

Quote from TeaJunky on June 2nd, 2012, 03:21 AM

well done on all your drawings once we figure out what is going on here there will probally be more than one way to create the same effects. technolgy alway evolves[/quote]That's Right, Reverse Engineer then ReEngineer! Then kick it in the Rear Engineer! lol :)

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on June 2nd, 2012, 04:32 AM

Quote from TeaJunky on June 2nd, 2012, 03:21 AM

well done on all your drawings once we figure out what is going on here there will probally be more than one way to create the same effects. technolgy alway evolves

That's Right, Reverse Engineer then ReEngineer! Then kick it in the Rear Engineer! lol :)[/quote]well said

Quote from securesupplies on June 1st, 2012, 12:01 AM

Nice Post

I will attempt to push it further please comment

There are thread for Gas Management system and ECU ECM ETC

Please look at this pic.

Dan

Securesupplies,

The diagram you labeled, Number 8 is the injector solenoids!

Also, Great ideas there, thanks for sharing!

Everyone,

I think we will get the injectors splitting water before the cell.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed but there is a progression in Meyer's work. With each design the water capacitor decreased in area and capacitance while the coils increased in inductance.

I did a lot of studying/research on the WFC. In Meyer's water capacitor the capacitance varies wildly, and the changes occur almost constantly, and they're caused by a number of different things. The change in capacitance causes the resonant frequency to change.

The larger the area of the water capacitor and the higher the capacitance the wider the resonant bandwidth becomes. This makes it very difficult to find and maintain the resonant frequency.

I think Meyer realized and tried to solve this probelm by reducing the capacitance and the area of the capacitor while at the same time increasing the coil inductance to keep the freq range in the audio range.....The higher the freq range is the wider the bandwidth also becomes.

Anyways back to my point, I don't think there is any way the injector VIC could use a PLL to find and lock on resonance. The injector on time and applied voltage on time is just too critical. I think this is why the injectors are so small while the coils inductance is so high. From my calculations I think the injector VIC operated at a constant frequency, around 5kHz.

Quote from HMS-776 on June 2nd, 2012, 04:57 PM

Everyone,

I think we will get the injectors splitting water before the cell.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed but there is a progression in Meyer's work. With each design the water capacitor decreased in area and capacitance while the coils increased in inductance.

I did a lot of studying/research on the WFC. In Meyer's water capacitor the capacitance varies wildly, and the changes occur almost constantly, and they're caused by a number of different things. The change in capacitance causes the resonant frequency to change.

The larger the area of the water capacitor and the higher the capacitance the wider the resonant bandwidth becomes. This makes it very difficult to find and maintain the resonant frequency.

I think Meyer realized and tried to solve this probelm by reducing the capacitance and the area of the capacitor while at the same time increasing the coil inductance to keep the freq range in the audio range.....The higher the freq range is the wider the bandwidth also becomes.

Anyways back to my point, I don't think there is any way the injector VIC could use a PLL to find and lock on resonance. The injector on time and applied voltage on time is just too short of a time to be scanning for a resonant freq. I think this is why the injectors are so small while the coils inductance is so high. From my calculations I think the injector VIC operated at a constant frequency, around 5kHz.


BTW, I calculated the injector capacitance, it's around 110-130pF, while the choke inductance is around 10H I believe. Resonant freq of that combination is 4.6kHz.

i used the equations in WFC memo 426 for a tapered resonant cavity...

came up with .01677644pf

i may be off.... but that's what my answer was ???

me and math dont get along... unless its rodin math ! :) lol


and yes. one needs to look over the work of stan and they will see what you have described. i agree

i also say that we will indeed get the injector to work before the "water cell" as there is less tuning and verables to worry about.

"set it and for get it" hahaah

~Russ

~Russ

Either way we'll know for sure when we get one built.

I'm working on making a few. But it will take some time to get it all machined on mi mini lathe.

Finally getting some where on converting the DWG files into Sketchup.  The scale is still way off, but at least it imported with components working.  I imported all the files into one Sketchup file.  If I can figure out how to fix the scaling problem I can then "blenderize" the sketchup files.:P  

File attached:
[attachment=1627]

Quote from gpssonar on May 30th, 2012, 07:07 PM

This may help some that is trying to mill the 10 thousands slots for the quinching disk. http://www.micro100distribution.com/pdf/endMills.pdf $28.20 each

Nice. That could work.

Quote from BAM5 on June 1st, 2012, 03:15 AM

Well, all the coils are doing is applying a scaling function to the voltage right? Couldn't you make the coils super small since they're dealing with such a small amount of amperage? I bet it'd even be possible to add the vic into the injector itself! Or at least make it a modular part of the injector... I really want to sit down and design a v2 injector. Also, arn't distributor caps the same as they have been? I know my 96 pathfinder has a regular mechanical distributor cap with rotar arm etc... I guess however that is kinda old.

Also, I'm curious about "injecting laser energy" into the water mist before it gets separated into HHO. I'm not sure that it's possible for the HHO atoms that are a part of the water molecule to absorb the em energy. Since the electrons are mostly part of the oxygen atom then you'd need a completely different wavelength to excite the electrons since they're in different orbitals than they would be separated. Although I suppose that the "laser energy" would have an effect on the ambient air that has the oxygen in its raw state... Wait. Oxygen usually buds up with another oxygen atom in the atmosphere making O2 and as I've questioned before, since the oxygen is in a molecule and not stand alone, is the light able to raise the electron to the energized state?

Oh another thing that's been bothering me. Why do we keep using the term "laser energy"? Did stan use an actual laser in his implementation? If so is it important that we use a laser? Where what it outputs is a photon with the same wavelength and same direction as all the photons it outputs? Because what Russ has built wouldn't provide the same effect. An led will produce a somewhat consistent range of wavelength photons but their directions would be completely scattered and chaotic. The only thing that would be a factor I think would be the wavelength. It takes a very specific wavelength light to raise an electron of a certain orbital to an excited state. I'm not sure how consistent the wavelength of an led is, but the wavelength of a laser is 100% consistent.

I've also been thinking... Is it possible to do the same function as Stan's resonant cavity using only light? All light is is an em wave... and all stan's resonant cavity does is oscillate an em field at a certain frequency... So is it theoretically possible to do the same with light since light can have a frequency too? I bet if you got the right frequency stan's cavity puts off a radio signal at the same frequency as it's oscillating... Just something I was thinking about. However it may not be efficient... It may take more amperage to send out an em wave. However I suppose it could be used in weapon application, but that's not our purpose.

Well that turned into quite the post.

One of the misnomers in Stan's work is that when he says "Laser Energy" and
using "Semiconductor Lasers" when he is actually referring to LED's.  I don't know why he did this.  Especially for the "Gas Gun" he referred to in as a "laser" in most of his documentation.  In "Birth Of A New Technology", page 23, he shows this  diagram with an LED Array with "Laser Energy" emitted from the LED's.   When you look at the "Gas Gun" photos you can see the 22 ohm resistors and the RED LED's he used for the construction.  They may be "pulsed" on and off at freqency,  but all appear to be just LED's.  I've looked at the diagrams for the "Laser Distributor" and it also appears to be a LED and interrupting disc system (like a mouse) for the timing and firing order.  Stan and Stephen are seen in the video released from last year testing the firing order of the system using the "laser distributor".

And "Qunchening Circuits" are Flame Arrestors.