hers an interesting video on microwave oven and how it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2k2g00onL0

its relevant to stans systems as it has some basic similarity to stans circuit.
The circuit uses a capacitor and diode on the high volt side of the transformer. In a similar way to stans circuit. Its also interesting that the microwave only supplies microwaves during half of the time its on, in sync with the 50 or 60hz ac power cycle.
Theres no resonating inductors but there is diode/capacitor.
I dont understand how the transformer acts as a voltage doubler ( 2kv transformer but 4kv output), i'll look into that.
Since stans work is said to be based his or  his brothers radar knowledge, it could be the basic magnetron circuit was part of the basis of where their work began, so I think quite a relevant area to look into.

heres 'simple' explanation of voltage doubler circuit in microwave.
http://www.microtechfactoryservice.com/doubler.html

the charged capacitor and transformer secondary winding act in series during half the cycle, so the voltage of each is summed, so 2kv transformer adds to the 2kv charged capacitor giving 4kv or so. Is something like this also occuring in stans circuit? I have read quite a bit about the frequency doubling, but haven't heard of voltage doubling in stans circuit?

just had an idea relating to ultrasonic misting of petrol to increase combustion efficiency in petrol engine.
I've been wondering if there was a way to add ultrasonic transducers to petrol injectors in order to create a very fine mist during injection.  Was toying with ideas of using the water misters transducers on the outside of the injector.......but I think there is a better way......
Since the injectors have a coil that opens and shuts the needle valve...why not add a signal to the coil which will induce high frequency vibration of the needle valve when it opens at the injector outlet orifice via the needle valve ( the injectors i've taken apart have a metal needle valve which is ideal).
The frequency of the water misters from memory was quite high ( 1.6? mhz?) so i'm not sure if the
coil/needle can react fast enough to that frequency, but would probably work at lower frequencies.
Maybe worth a try! That would be a nice add on to increase efficiency.....a small adapter on the injector connector that adds a high frequency signal to the pwm signal going into the injectors.
If a tiny circuit board could be made it would be extremely quick and easy mod to an ic engine.
Might even be some market for such a device..........if it works!

seems there is a patent for such a device, also some commercially made units available, but they use ceramic ultrasonic transducers.
it seems steel can handle up to 1.6mhz ultrasonic waves ( the metal inside a petrol injector coil, the needle appears to be some sort of white metal).
from this thesis:
http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/67107/1/WRAP_THESIS_Ho_2007.pdf
( a thesis on ultrasonic induction via coils)
came across another interesting article on experiments with a coils natural resonant frequency ( and also self capacitance)( not related to injectors directly but maybe relevant to studying stans coils at rf frequencies), also some nice experiments on plasma induction in coils.
here:
http://g3ynh.info/zdocs/magnetics/appendix/self_res/gallery.html

just looking at a video where a guy copied/built a circuit to use on a small ultrasonic fogger,
the output of mist he gets from a small ultrasonic fogger is  is quite amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHHF6ZeVlsg

not sure if this inventor has come up on this forum before,
his name is ZOGRAFOS PETROS seems he has a patent which I haven't looked up yet.
He is from greece and uses various frequencies ( possibly quite high) to split water  using
em waves, had a bit of a look at various videos online, looks like low power input, and the horn used looks like for microwave frequencies.
Only issue I have is that I dont hear a 'pop' when he lights the hydrogen ( or hho).
Might be worth pusuing though, I'll dig out his patent if in english.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWQHV1zXcD0

Lots of discussion going on at OU about this.  Some think there may be "fuel" added to the water.  Hard to say.  Stephen mentioned this is all supposed to be released OpenSource, but the language translation may slow things down quite a bit.

Best I can tell, the catalyst metal plate that is put into the water resonates with the microwave energy in such a fashion the water breaks down in such a way to only release the Hydrogen and not the Oxygen.  I'm guessing the catalyst absorbs the Oxygen which probably limits its lifespan, but if the catalyst can work for years without replacement, it's a darn good invention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE6k5eOJ4e8

http://overunity.com/16579/bike-runs-on-water-100-no-gasoline-microwave-pulse-generator-water-split

That's amazing.
Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

 a little info from an ou board translation of one of the videos, its salt water and the max freq of the microwave source is 120ghz. Looks similar to kanzius salt water microwave splitter except a metal cataylst and microwaves not just one frequency.

If it works it works.
There's plenty of salt water to be had, roundabout 70% of the World's oceans are salt water, some more saline than others.
If it comes down to replacing the catalyst once every 5 years, give or take a few years, I'm just good with that.

its a shame the plans are not available for others to verify results etc. There is a possibility of chlorine and sodium being  present in the flame.
heres another interesting video of water explosion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DuDQG0Xg1s
quite dangerous but easily replicable. One possibility not discussed for the phenomenon is the spark gap produces em waves at suitable frequencies that split the water. a spark gap has wide range of em frequencies produced. But more likely just electricity finding low resistance path.

heres a research paper where they use a microwave oven 2.45ghz and create a plasma in a confined space at near 100% efficiency. They mention water dissociation in the article though they concentrate on breakdown of toxic chemicals mainly.
article is here:
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwj3jey8hfDMAhUDjZQKHSwtAvMQFggrMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibrarian.net%2Fnavon%2Fpaper%2FMicrowave_plasma_torch_and_its_applications.pdf%3Fpaperid%3D4191568&usg=AFQjCNGDoAbCUtHh2J8b96pmMWC_9XiDow&bvm=bv.122448493,d.dGo&cad=rja

they have a patent on the device : H. S. Uhm, Y. C. Hong, and S. C. Lee, KR Patent
# 0394994 (2003).
( korean patent may have more details on the build)

I mentioned previously regarding output frequency of microwave oven, which I got wrong.
The output frequency is related to the physical dimensions/shape of the magnetron and magnetic filed strength ( I thought output frequency related to voltage applied........wrong!).
This paper mentions input voltage effects the output power! which is good news, it might be possible to experiment with oven magnetrons at low power levels, in this paper 37volts is minimum required.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705811000324

( cannot find full pdf of korean patent in last post, though they do have a much more recent patent which addresses the problem of quenching and instability of the plasma due to introduced gases )
This paper ( by same authors) though does give some more details of the 2003 patent:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.472.3795&rep=rep1&type=pdf

it looks like not all that difficult to make a 2.45ghz high temp plasma for hho experimenting
heres an example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_k7-B9QxTg
looks like simple tapered waveguide ( no stub tuning), I read in one article removing stub tuner didn't effect efficiency much, once the plasma is running it absorbs a very high percentage of the microwave energy. Dimensions of waveguide will be important.

dimensions of similar tapered waveguide for 2.45ghz
http://www.plasmacenter.pl/userfiles/presentations/elmeco%202014%20miotk.pdf

just expanding on the idea of running an IC engine using water and microwave oven components.
The recent research I've done shows that you can split water using microwave oven frequency ( 2.45ghz) when a plasma is produced. Initially I was looking at using graphite to create the air plasma, but you can produce the plasma without the graphite, it just requires a spark to initiate the air plasma. The plasma can reach high enough temperatures to split water into h and o ( and other products). The air is introduced into the plasma in a swirling manner in order to reduce heating of the 'glass' tube in which the plasma sits.
In an IC engine there should already be considerable turbulence of the air/water mix at top dead centre, so I think not likely the high temp plasma in combustion chamber will interact directly with the cylinder and head.
So heres the experimental idea ( maybe someone somewhere had already tried it?):
Introduce water in droplet form into combustion chamber using ultrasonic humidifier ( technically very simple to do), many have already done this either to increase power or clean out an IC engine or to increase efficiency.
Leave the sparkplug in place, this spark will induce the plasma when the microwaves are introduced.
The microwaves will need to be introduced via another entry to the combustion chamber.
The cylinder head will need to accomodate the magnetron output ( possibly simply a hole drilled in the cylinder head, it will need to be such that microwaves can only enter the combustion chamber and not leak back out through the input hole).
I'm envisioning the magnetron output antanna just protruding into the combustion chamber, encapsulated in something like epoxy ( or some high temp resistant microwave transparent material) ( no  idea if epoxy would be suitable, maybe ok for experiments).
So the sequence is:
1. air/water droplet intake
2. compression
3. near tdc microwave turns on, just prior to sparkplug spark...timing might be important there.
My theory is the concentrated microwaves in small volume of compressed air/water will turn into plasma due to the sparkplug spark, the plasma should reach high temperature quickly, turning water droplets into hho and other products, the hho should immediately recombine giving expansion of gases ( plus expansion due to the plasma on the air).

I'm not sure if I will ever get to build and try this, there might be some simple way to try it without actually using an IC engine, though it would be hard to replicate the system without using an IC engine.

Way way back in this thread, I was trying to figure out a way to fill a combustion chamber completely with plasma, now it seems there is a way to do it.
One other thing I would try to do is to charge the water droplets pre combustion chamber, there are a few different ways to do that, simple way is high voltage potential across the water surface where the ultrasonic mist is being produced.

Lets assume the system can be made to work, how to control power.....adjust input voltage into the microwave transformer.

just searching to see if this idea has been patented:
this patent is pretty close:
https://www.google.com/patents/US6581581

here is another patent, the author ( plasmerg) appears to have practical knowledge on this type of engine, he is using microwave ( rf) energy and high voltage discharge with inert gases as the fuel for an ic engine, I will try find any information on published experiments in this area.
http://www.google.com/patents/US20110113772

the patent is very detailed including some circuitry and information regarding timing etc

well this is interesting, seems its the Pap engine the last link refers to.
Doing a bit of searching on pap engine, and the first  article I find links back to Russ Griess........
as a researcher in this area......how about that...funny.

http://revolution-green.com/unconventional-green-energy/the-papp-engine-history-and-current-progress/

back to microwave oven power into car combustion cylinder:
here is a research paper where they put microwave energy into car engine cylinder via the sparkplug, the sparkplug has a minor modification, a small loop of wire that acts as the antanna
see
http://www.enu.kz/repository/2009/AIAA-2009-223.pdf

the magnetron energy is transferred via coax cable, heres an article on how to convert a microwave oven output into rf coaxial cable
http://mail.blockyourid.com/~gbpprorg/mil/emp3/

so it appears its quite feasible to add microwave oven energy into combustion chamber of ic engine, without any mods to the engine.

Quote from brettly on May 27th, 2016, 05:56 AM

so it appears its quite feasible to add microwave oven energy into combustion chamber of ic engine, without any mods to the engine.

There should be a patent for this as I saw it first-hand at the GM Powertrain facility in Pontiac Michigan.  There were no spark plugs; only a waveguide tube running from a magnetron to the cylinder head with some sort of quartz glass plug/window anchored in the cylinder head to allow the microwave energy to pass into the combustion chamber.  Surely this was tested, perfected and shelved.  The patent may have been "cleaned" due to national security interests.

I suspect why you do not see engines built this way on modern vehicles is because when they work, they work way too good--possibly overunity.  They may also be able to use any type of fuel, water being a prime candidate.  Very unlikely the big petroleum companies would bless General Motors to go into production with these engines.

And yes, if cameras would have been allowed into that facility, I would have pictures of it.


M@

that is interesting, I'll do some more patent searching, didn't see anything from gm as yet.

heres a thesis goes into great detail on microwave resonance in ic cylinder, he found around 2.6-2.7ghz for the engine he used in calculations. And 14mm antanna gave best results ( theoretical calcs).
So microwave oven magnetron is close to resonant frequency but not quite correct, a little bit low.
Although microwave oven peaks around 2.45ghz but gives a bit of range on the output freq.
see
theses.gla.ac.uk/2237/1/2010sunphd.pdf

Still it would make an interesting experiment to use an oven magnetron in an ic engine, another paper showed a high degree of loss of energy in transferring magnetron power into the cylinderia coax cable.
There is quite a wealth of information on this topic available on the net, and seems quite an active area of research, including many patents by car companies.
Vibration adverse effects on a magnetron directly coupled to a cylinder were addressed in one patent. Although it would be quite possible to experiment with microwave power in a ic engine cylinder, the results might be limited as 2.45ghz wont be the best frequency for a given cylinder dimension near tdc.
Also some dangers involved in microwaves, and a magnetron is not designed for use in a high vibration environment.
Still its tempting to experiment with the concept.

the insulation ceramic on a sparkplug is apparently transparent to microwaves, which might be another way to allow microwave transfer into the cylinder, without modifying the sparkplug.

I might just think out aloud here on using microwave oven magnetron and water in car engine or similar.
1. microwave magnetron directly onto cylinder head will reduce losses, 2.45ghz wont be perfect match for given cylinder dimensions but should be ok for experimenting.
2. I'm thinking ultrasonic water fogger as the fuel supply ( water) with  no modifications to engine air intake.
3. what timing regime will suit: this is difficult question.
     a. water droplets sucked into cylinder via air intake, the microwaves can be used to heat the water mist, provide it with some thermal energy during compression stroke. jWould only need to heat the water a small amount not enough for steam production. During compression the water doplets will become closely packed, I'm guessing they will remain as droplets and not coalesce into bulk water at maximum pressure. Will water in small droplet form absorb microwave energy.....I  think yes it should as the dipole structure should react to the e field of the microwaves, in the form of rotation. So I would think the microwave should turn on slightly before tdc to warm the water but not create steam/water vapour.
      b. at or near tdc the spark plug should fire in order to start off the plasma phase of the air in the cylinder, perhaps slightly before tdc?
       c. during the plasma phase the high temperature plasma in confined space should split a portion of the water into hydrogen and oxygen ( if the temperature is high enough). Only some portions of the plasma might reach sufficient temperature, from memory somewhere in the order of 3,000degrees is required. The will also be production of other products in the plasma, OH radicals, and oxygen should also be influenced. There is one patent by a medical company in the uk, which creates OH radicals by splitting water mist in a microwave air plasma. The OH kills bacteris and virus in the air, and lasts for a number of minutes after being produced.
Its the only patent I've thus far found that uses ultrasonic mist and microwaves  ( I will find the link and post  later). From patents I've read on microwave plasma ignition systems and air plasma for other purposes it seems the temperature of the plasma is not the same across all the plasma, near the cylinder walls the plasma temperature is lower, and swirling of the air is a method to keep temperature lower on the cylinder walls.
   d. lets assume there is high enough temperature for a decent amount of hydrogen and oxygen to be produced, what happens to the H and O when the plasma is turned off?
The plasma is sustained by the microwaves and should cease to exist when the microwave is turned off. What period the microwaves should be produced for across and after tdc I do not know, but in the microwave ignition systems they use on periods in the microsecond range.
When the microwave is turned off the plasma temperature should decrease rapidly, the production of H and O should cease, I'm guessing at some point there will be enough temperature in the cylinder to ignite the H and O, I'm guessing it will self combust. If it does not self combust then another spark might be required at the end of the microwave period to ignite the H and O.
    c. will steam be produced? I would think there will be steam present during the microwave plasma phase in the lower temperature areas of the plasma. It will also be produced when the H and O recombines. So I would guess steam expansion should also play a role in the process.

This is just my thoughts on a possible scenario to use microwaves. My guess is there will be an quite complex process going on, which will be related to the temperature profile of the plasma. Ideally maximising amount of H and O produced would give best results ( at present I think temperature of the plasma will be a major factor in that), but there will many different chemical processes occuring. There would likely be significant amounts of OH present. I think there is a possibility of creating an explosive type reaction if there is enough H and O produced and if it ignites at the correct time, also steam production should play some role due to its expansion. It might land up being technically complex to actually get this to work.

Will the water droplets cause quenching of the plasma in some areas of the combustion volume near tdc?

If the system does not work, it might be possible to add small amounts of petrol or other fuel to the water before its atomised so I lean mixture can be used. I'm quite surprised that I cant as yet find anyone who has tried this system purely with water mist.
Charging the water mist before entering the cylinder might also be advantageous, the excess electrons might add the the plasma temperature or stability.

I intend to give this a try on a one cylinder briggs/stratton engine, 4 stroke.