Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #75, on January 3rd, 2014, 01:55 PM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 01:34 PM
Yes, mine is also brushless but a 2 pole rotor. The stator looks like it could be used in an Induction motor.
Seriously?  No windings like a squirrel cage motor/rotor?

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #76, on January 3rd, 2014, 02:12 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 01:55 PM
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 01:34 PM
Yes, mine is also brushless but a 2 pole rotor. The stator looks like it could be used in an Induction motor.
Seriously?  No windings like a squirrel cage motor/rotor?
Yes, windings are like a squirrel cage motor, isn't that an Induction motor?

Luc

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #77, on January 3rd, 2014, 02:27 PM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 02:12 PM
Yes, windings are like a squirrel cage motor, isn't that an Induction motor?
Most certainly and an extremely low rotor resistance too.  I may have to think about this for a while, it may change everything.

What I do know is that a regular induction motor can be used as a generator.
http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html

My generator has an actual armature winding.  I'm wondering if this is going to work or not now.
http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/45000-45999/45416.pdf

Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #78, on January 3rd, 2014, 05:32 PM »
Quote from Lynx on December 31st, 2013, 04:36 PM
I hope no one has missed the fact that the simulator is available for free download, http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuit.zip
That way you can run the simulator offline, just unzip the package and start Circuit.jar and off you go.
Quote from Matt Watts on December 30th, 2013, 08:43 PM
Many thanks to Luc and Lynx helping me get this far......
I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that my "contribution" here has been for the sake of debunking this, proving that it's impossible to ever loop such a device and I'm afraid that I'd only believe in it if I were able to build such a device myself and see with my own eyes that it actually works as advertised.
Hi Lynx... so have you started your build yet :)


gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #79, on January 3rd, 2014, 05:37 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 02:27 PM
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 02:12 PM
Yes, windings are like a squirrel cage motor, isn't that an Induction motor?
Most certainly and an extremely low rotor resistance too.  I may have to think about this for a while, it may change everything.

What I do know is that a regular induction motor can be used as a generator.
http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html

My generator has an actual armature winding.  I'm wondering if this is going to work or not now.
http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/45000-45999/45416.pdf
Yes, Induction motor can be used as generators if certain conditions are met. One is it needs to turn a little faster then its max rpm and the other is the rotor needs residual magnetism.

My gen rotor also has 2 sets of copper coil windings.

Luc
.


Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #80, on January 3rd, 2014, 05:43 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2014, 05:46 PM by Matt Watts
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 05:37 PM
My gen rotor also has 2 sets of copper coil windings.
Okay, I feel better now.  I was starting to get squeamish that a solid core squirrel cage rotor might be necessary.

You did see in that link we he stated trying to drive an induction motor with an induction generator should be limited to about 1/10th the size.  He may have something there.  The two devices would probably try to fight each other.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #81, on January 3rd, 2014, 06:31 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2014, 06:33 PM by gotoluc
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 05:43 PM
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 05:37 PM
My gen rotor also has 2 sets of copper coil windings.
Okay, I feel better now.  I was starting to get squeamish that a solid core squirrel cage rotor might be necessary.

You did see in that link we he stated trying to drive an induction motor with an induction generator should be limited to about 1/10th the size.  He may have something there.  The two devices would probably try to fight each other.
Yes, I did see that and also concluded that from my tests. I hinted to it in my video demos. I would say 10kw gen could be turned by a 2kw (1.5hp) Induction motor.

I have a question for you. Does your gen head have a 220v output?... if so, do you see a difference in more watts output (using the series cap circuit)  when using 220v compared to 120v?

Thanks

Luc

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #82, on January 3rd, 2014, 07:49 PM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 06:31 PM
I have a question for you. Does your gen head have a 220v output?... if so, do you see a difference in more watts output (using the series cap circuit)  when using 220v compared to 120v?
Yes, my gen has two separate 120 volt windings that can be tied together in-phase or out-of phase.  Running 240 volt, I see the best waveforms when the cap drops the voltage by about half, which is what I mentioned in one of my earlier posts--seems like if you pick a cap that drops half the voltage and half the current, you get a nice 90 degree waveform on the generator side and plenty of power for a resistive load on the load side.

I really need to get the bigger motor hooked up so I can retest all this at full 60 Hz.  The exciter pulls my little 1/2 horse induction motor down too much.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #83, on January 3rd, 2014, 08:32 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 07:49 PM
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 06:31 PM
I have a question for you. Does your gen head have a 220v output?... if so, do you see a difference in more watts output (using the series cap circuit)  when using 220v compared to 120v?
Yes, my gen has two separate 120 volt windings that can be tied together in-phase or out-of phase.  Running 240 volt, I see the best waveforms when the cap drops the voltage by about half, which is what I mentioned in one of my earlier posts--seems like if you pick a cap that drops half the voltage and half the current, you get a nice 90 degree waveform on the generator side and plenty of power for a resistive load on the load side.

I really need to get the bigger motor hooked up so I can retest all this at full 60 Hz.  The exciter pulls my little 1/2 horse induction motor down too much.
Thanks for the reply!... so what was the max watts you could pull out without affecting the prime mover?

Luc

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #84, on January 3rd, 2014, 08:53 PM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the reply!... so what was the max watts you could pull out without affecting the prime mover?
I did a 100 watt flood lamp, but had to hurry because of my 1/2 horse motor getting hot--could smell it a little.  I wanted to try my 500/1000 watt space heater, but may wait on that until it gets cold again in the garage.  That will give me a little more time to ramp-up and find a tuned set of caps.  Then I can let things cool down and go for an RPM test and see how we are doing.

Again, just running the generator normal with factory cap and nothing plugged in, my little motor is really straining.  Can't reach 3600 RPM even if I change the sheave, just more torque needed than I can muster out of this motor.  It tells me though something I needed to know.  I'll need more than 1/2 horsepower to loop.  I'm hoping a 1 horse DC can drive this to rated speed without over working itself.  If not, things might start getting a little iffy.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #85, on January 3rd, 2014, 09:16 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 08:53 PM
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the reply!... so what was the max watts you could pull out without affecting the prime mover?
I did a 100 watt flood lamp, but had to hurry because of my 1/2 horse motor getting hot--could smell it a little.  I wanted to try my 500/1000 watt space heater, but may wait on that until it gets cold again in the garage.  That will give me a little more time to ramp-up and find a tuned set of caps.  Then I can let things cool down and go for an RPM test and see how we are doing.

Again, just running the generator normal with factory cap and nothing plugged in, my little motor is really straining.  Can't reach 3600 RPM even if I change the sheave, just more torque needed than I can muster out of this motor.  It tells me though something I needed to know.  I'll need more than 1/2 horsepower to loop.  I'm hoping a 1 horse DC can drive this to rated speed without over working itself.  If not, things might start getting a little iffy.
You pulled out 100 watts of reactive power without the prime mover lowering rpm or needing more power to continue turning the gen?

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #86, on January 3rd, 2014, 09:31 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2014, 09:36 PM by Matt Watts
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 09:16 PM
You pulled out 100 watts of reactive power without the prime mover lowering rpm or needing more power to continue turning the gen?
Not measuring power on the motor.  Like I said, it's already overloaded.  I have a nice RPM gauge now, so I'll get the exact numbers to post here.  When I did the test I didn't have that, but I could not hear any change in pitch from the motor/generator running.  I certainly could when I plugged in the 100 watt flood lamp direct.

I was basically trying to mock your video as close as I could.  From what I could see, the phenomena was definitely repeatable.

I should say, I pulled out 100 watts of resistive power.  I have no idea how much reactive power I used.

Also, I tried this same test on my inverter and it was able to see the load go from 33% to 45% whether I had the capacitor inline or not.  So I knew there was something special about the generator with the capacitor, not the capacitor alone.
RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #87, on January 3rd, 2014, 10:49 PM »
100 watt bulb test.

Base RPM:  3415
Direct Load:  3348
32uF Cap Load:  3380

So it's better than nothing, but not nearly as good as I thought originally.

Hope it's not back to the drawing board already.

geenee

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #88, on January 4th, 2014, 12:47 AM »
that's very interesting,Matt.lower than no load just 35 rpm.do you have plug kill a watt meter on motor side?

maybe need to adjust cap,imho.

thanks
geenee

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #89, on January 4th, 2014, 12:56 AM »
Quote from geenee on January 4th, 2014, 12:47 AM
that's very interesting,Matt.lower than no load just 35 rpm.do you have plug kill a watt meter on motor side?

maybe need to adjust cap,imho.
I will try some more tests with varying cap sizes.  I don't have a watt meter, but I do have a clip-on amp gauge and since line voltage shouldn't change any, it will be helpful.

This RPM meter I have is so darn accurate.  I really didn't expect to see that much variance.  But now that I know it's there, I do probably need to see how much electrical load change there is on the motor as well as mechanical.

A test I haven't tried yet but need to do also is putting a cap in front of the motor after it is up to speed and see if RPM drops off a little or a lot.  I'm afraid with this motor, the motor will probably stall completely.

Lynx

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #90, on January 4th, 2014, 03:58 AM »
Quote from Jimboot on January 3rd, 2014, 05:32 PM
Quote from Lynx on December 31st, 2013, 04:36 PM
I hope no one has missed the fact that the simulator is available for free download, http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuit.zip
That way you can run the simulator offline, just unzip the package and start Circuit.jar and off you go.
Quote from Matt Watts on December 30th, 2013, 08:43 PM
Many thanks to Luc and Lynx helping me get this far......
I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that my "contribution" here has been for the sake of debunking this, proving that it's impossible to ever loop such a device and I'm afraid that I'd only believe in it if I were able to build such a device myself and see with my own eyes that it actually works as advertised.
Hi Lynx... so have you started your build yet :)
I'll get busy building one of these if and when someone shows their build running in a closed loop, provided it doesn't raise any 'suspicious' questions that is.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #91, on January 4th, 2014, 08:20 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 10:49 PM
100 watt bulb test.

Base RPM:  3415
Direct Load:  3348
32uF Cap Load:  3380

So it's better than nothing, but not nearly as good as I thought originally.

Hope it's not back to the drawing board already.
Hi Matt, thanks for the new data. I now understand you original test.

What I have been trying to demonstrate in my video demos is to use a low resistance value to get max power out. There is an ideal resistor and cap value combination to get max power out with no rpm drop.
A bulb may have a low resistance when you check it cold but the more it lights up the higher the resistance value it has. So bulbs are no good for power calculation.

I would suggest to get Five 50 ohm 25w resistors and connect them all in parallel to make a 10 ohm 125w resistor and test it. You maybe surprised of the results compared to a high resistance bulb.

All the best in your tests

Luc

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #92, on January 4th, 2014, 11:19 AM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 4th, 2014, 08:20 AM
I would suggest to get Five 50 ohm 25w resistors and connect them all in parallel to make a 10 ohm 125w resistor and test it. You maybe surprised of the results compared to a high resistance bulb.
That does sound like a better test.  I'll have to setup for it and see what numbers I get.

Ultimately though, we need a load equal to or larger than what the motor draws and when this load is connected, there should be no RPM change or additional stress on the drive motor.  In fact, it would be good if the drive motor actually sees less load from the generator.  I saw this in your video.  You were using 185 watts with the switch off and when you switched on, the watt meter went down to 179.  Whatever was happening there is the magic we are looking for.  That slight decrease in motor load is what will give us the gain needed to loop this device.

So let me ask you about using a DC drive motor.  Do you think the lower the voltage the better?  I would guess the internal resistance for a low voltage motor would be far lower than the internal resistance of a high voltage motor.  My question is:  Is there a sweet spot here.  Too low may try to draw more amperage than we can provide while too high adds too much resistance for the circuit to be effective.  So of the sizes of DC motors (12, 24 or 90 volt), which one do you think has the best chance of working here?

Now add this to my previous question.  Do you think having a large filter cap across the motor will help any?  From my simulations it would appear to.  What's your take on it?
RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #93, on January 4th, 2014, 11:26 AM »
Quote from Lynx on January 4th, 2014, 03:58 AM
I'll get busy building one of these if and when someone shows their build running in a closed loop, provided it doesn't raise any 'suspicious' questions that is.
Lynx,

How are you going to be ready for the 2014 Q-Mo-Gen Buildoff Competition if you sit on the sidelines until the last minute?

Lynx

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #94, on January 4th, 2014, 11:33 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 4th, 2014, 11:26 AM
Quote from Lynx on January 4th, 2014, 03:58 AM
I'll get busy building one of these if and when someone shows their build running in a closed loop, provided it doesn't raise any 'suspicious' questions that is.
Lynx,

How are you going to be ready for the 2014 Q-Mo-Gen Buildoff Competition if you sit on the sidelines until the last minute?
Well as you already know that I think this is just a waste of time I'm perfectly happy just waiting and watching what gives.
I'd love to see the buildoff though, might even contribute with my own build when that sweet time comes.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #95, on January 4th, 2014, 11:42 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 4th, 2014, 11:19 AM
Quote from gotoluc on January 4th, 2014, 08:20 AM
I would suggest to get Five 50 ohm 25w resistors and connect them all in parallel to make a 10 ohm 125w resistor and test it. You maybe surprised of the results compared to a high resistance bulb.
That does sound like a better test.  I'll have to setup for it and see what numbers I get.

Ultimately though, we need a load equal to or larger than what the motor draws and when this load is connected, there should be no RPM change or additional stress on the drive motor.  In fact, it would be good if the drive motor actually sees less load from the generator.  I saw this in your video.  You were using 185 watts with the switch off and when you switched on, the watt meter went down to 179.  Whatever was happening there is the magic we are looking for.  That slight decrease in motor load is what will give us the gain needed to loop this device.

So let me ask you about using a DC drive motor.  Do you think the lower the voltage the better?  I would guess the internal resistance for a low voltage motor would be far lower than the internal resistance of a high voltage motor.  My question is:  Is there a sweet spot here.  Too low may try to draw more amperage than we can provide while too high adds too much resistance for the circuit to be effective.  So of the sizes of DC motors (12, 24 or 90 volt), which one do you think has the best chance of working here?

Now add this to my previous question.  Do you think having a large filter cap across the motor will help any?  From my simulations it would appear to.  What's your take on it?
Sorry Matt but I have hardly tested DC loads using a FWBR. This all needs to be tested.

Not sure about the large filter cap either? needs to be tested

Luc
RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #96, on January 4th, 2014, 01:25 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 4th, 2014, 11:19 AM
Quote from gotoluc on January 4th, 2014, 08:20 AM
Now add this to my previous question.  Do you think having a large filter cap across the motor will help any?  From my simulations it would appear to.  What's your take on it?
Sorry Matt, I wasn't thinking strait!... Yes, the large filter cap makes a huge difference!  basically just use a 12 volt battery!... I've been doing this for months!... if you remove the battery you get a bad effect add the battery good effect.

Hope this helps

Luc

Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #97, on January 4th, 2014, 03:46 PM »
Are you guys using a series of caps purely for tuning purposes. Once you settle on ideal values will you just use a single cap? Just trying to understand. There's no extra benefit from multiple caps in series that I'm missing?

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #98, on January 4th, 2014, 03:59 PM »
Quote from Jimboot on January 4th, 2014, 03:46 PM
Are you guys using a series of caps purely for tuning purposes. Once you settle on ideal values will you just use a single cap? Just trying to understand. There's no extra benefit from multiple caps in series that I'm missing?
Yes, it's a single series cap. Values will vary depending on load, frequency and voltage.

There is a slight benefit of connecting many small value caps in parallel to reach a certain value. This will reduce or eliminate cap internal resistance. However, that cap bank is connected in series in the circuit.

Hope this answers your questions

Luc

Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #99, on January 4th, 2014, 05:14 PM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 4th, 2014, 03:59 PM
Quote from Jimboot on January 4th, 2014, 03:46 PM
Are you guys using a series of caps purely for tuning purposes. Once you settle on ideal values will you just use a single cap? Just trying to understand. There's no extra benefit from multiple caps in series that I'm missing?
Yes, it's a single series cap. Values will vary depending on load, frequency and voltage.

There is a slight benefit of connecting many small value caps in parallel to reach a certain value. This will reduce or eliminate cap internal resistance. However, that cap bank is connected in series in the circuit.

Hope this answers your questions

Luc
Ok got it. Thanks Luc.