Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #50, on December 31st, 2013, 12:31 PM »
Quote from geenee on December 31st, 2013, 12:43 AM
from video.

coil has magnetic field to capture free energy from environment.this formula for inductor.if use Q and Xc,what is fomula?

capacitor has electrostatic field to capture free energy from environment.

just my theory,IMHO.
So what I'm hearing you say is another formula exists where:
Q = Xc / R

And this one does make a lot of sense.  If you make R very small and Xc as large as you can, then W gets a nice boost beyond simply V * I.

Great observation geenee.

~Russ

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #51, on December 31st, 2013, 01:42 PM »
Welcom abord luc!

We are looking forward to your assistants when needed!

Glad to have you here!!

~Russ

Jeff Nading

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #52, on December 31st, 2013, 01:49 PM »
I second and third this Luc, please keep up the good work.
Matt it's looking good.:cool::D:P

Lynx

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #53, on December 31st, 2013, 04:36 PM »
I hope no one has missed the fact that the simulator is available for free download, http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuit.zip
That way you can run the simulator offline, just unzip the package and start Circuit.jar and off you go.
Quote from Matt Watts on December 30th, 2013, 08:43 PM
Many thanks to Luc and Lynx helping me get this far......
I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that my "contribution" here has been for the sake of debunking this, proving that it's impossible to ever loop such a device and I'm afraid that I'd only believe in it if I were able to build such a device myself and see with my own eyes that it actually works as advertised.

geenee

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #54, on December 31st, 2013, 04:58 PM »Last edited on December 31st, 2013, 10:20 PM by geenee
from capacitance formula(q=xc/r=[1/2¶fc]/r) that mean lowest frequency,lowest capacitance and lowest resistance that more energy.

from formula(q=xl/r) than mean highest frequency,highest inductance and lowest resistance that more energy.somethings like Stan said, more frequency more voltage can convert a gallon of water a second.

this xc formula can confirm Luc said microwave oven transformer is not necessary.because low frequency from alternator = 60hz,that should use capacitor than inductor.

something i need to add, only 90 degree phase shift is the best or nor? or can make another degree like 91-119 degree?because if this degree return energy back that mean better than 90 degree phase shift or not? imho.

thanks
geenee

Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #55, on December 31st, 2013, 08:29 PM »
Great to Luc here, I have been a fan of his work for a long time at the OU forum. He is one very helpful and generous bloke. I'm still absorbing most of what he has shared and have watched his latest vids a few times now.

I was just part of a group here in Melbourne that funded and built a life size lego car powered by air. It got 3mill Youtube views in a week! That was for a toy!
My mind is racing on the potential of what we can do with what Luc has shared with us both commercially & socially.

It maybe too early to discuss something like this but does this tech have the potential to be an open source platform, say liuke arduino and the like?

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #56, on January 1st, 2014, 12:50 AM »
Quote from Jimboot on December 31st, 2013, 08:29 PM
It maybe too early to discuss something like this but does this tech have the potential to be an open source platform, say liuke arduino and the like?
If I happen to hit the right combination of parts, I will happily create an OpenSource project here for anyone to replicate and tweak to their heart's content.  I won't even get my feelings hurt if someone beats me to it.  With our new "Trading Zone" coming online soon, there may potentially be someone that can source materials for us to make this as easy as a Lego kit.  Of course, first we have to make a working prototype and at least describe with some level of confidence how it works.  So one step at a time for now.
RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #57, on January 1st, 2014, 02:12 AM »
Now this is a trip.  I found this document about big utility alternators:
http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/eltamaly/Documents/Courses/EE%20339/Alternator.pdf

In this document (Synchronous Generators, Chapter 5), they are just about to go into detail of current leading voltage by 90 degrees (leading power factor load) with phasor diagrams, the math, etc.  And guess what?  The document is chopped off at that point.  Probably bad for business.

If anyone can find the original text in its entirety, I sure would like to see a link to it.

Lynx

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #58, on January 1st, 2014, 02:40 AM »
Here's an interesting article on power factor correction, http://www.engr.colostate.edu/ece-sr-design/AY06_07/power_factor/PFC.pdf
It shows the value of using capacitors to reduce the apparent power in a combined resistor/inductance circuit, amongst other things.


:angel:

Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #59, on January 1st, 2014, 03:36 AM »Last edited on January 1st, 2014, 04:08 AM by Jimboot
Quote from Matt Watts on January 1st, 2014, 02:12 AM
Now this is a trip.  I found this document about big utility alternators:
http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/eltamaly/Documents/Courses/EE%20339/Alternator.pdf

In this document (Synchronous Generators, Chapter 5), they are just about to go into detail of current leading voltage by 90 degrees (leading power factor load) with phasor diagrams, the math, etc.  And guess what?  The document is chopped off at that point.  Probably bad for business.

If anyone can find the original text in its entirety, I sure would like to see a link to it.
What about this? http://www.most.gov.mm/techuni/media/EP02043_5.pdf
[attachment=4834]
Quote from Jimboot on January 1st, 2014, 03:36 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on January 1st, 2014, 02:12 AM
Now this is a trip.  I found this document about big utility alternators:
http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/eltamaly/Documents/Courses/EE%20339/Alternator.pdf

In this document (Synchronous Generators, Chapter 5), they are just about to go into detail of current leading voltage by 90 degrees (leading power factor load) with phasor diagrams, the math, etc.  And guess what?  The document is chopped off at that point.  Probably bad for business.

If anyone can find the original text in its entirety, I sure would like to see a link to it.
What about this? http://www.most.gov.mm/techuni/media/EP02043_5.pdf
Btw that doc is a scan from a larger book. Can't work out what it is. But what it does say in relation to leading power factor load is that " in effect the inductive reactance Xs enters into partial resonance with the capacitance reactance of the load" am I crazy or is that crazy good? Seriously I have no idea


geenee

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #60, on January 1st, 2014, 08:17 AM »Last edited on January 1st, 2014, 08:27 AM by geenee
see in picture.

i searched from Thai's site.

power factor 0.7 = phase shift 45 degree, this don't return more power to alternator but it return a little.

power factor 0.0 = phase shift 90 degree, this return power = use power, that mean no consumption.

power factor -0.1 to -0.9 = phase shift 91-119, eletrical teacher or power engineer don't tell anythings .... why??? bad for bussiness???

power company tell about force to charge your money if you use reactive power.and tell you reactive power don't do a work or waste power or heat a wire.that is real???but Luc shown power factor 0.0 can do a work and useful.

ask again, phase shift 91-119 isn't good???only 90 degree phase shift is good???  

thanks
geenee

Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #61, on January 1st, 2014, 01:24 PM »
Quote from geenee on January 1st, 2014, 08:17 AM
see in picture.

i searched from Thai's site.

power factor 0.7 = phase shift 45 degree, this don't return more power to alternator but it return a little.

power factor 0.0 = phase shift 90 degree, this return power = use power, that mean no consumption.

power factor -0.1 to -0.9 = phase shift 91-119, eletrical teacher or power engineer don't tell anythings .... why??? bad for bussiness???

power company tell about force to charge your money if you use reactive power.and tell you reactive power don't do a work or waste power or heat a wire.that is real???but Luc shown power factor 0.0 can do a work and useful.

ask again, phase shift 91-119 isn't good???only 90 degree phase shift is good???  

thanks
geenee
The site is Myanmar (formerly Burma).


Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #62, on January 1st, 2014, 01:27 PM »
Quote from geenee on January 1st, 2014, 08:17 AM
power factor -0.1 to -0.9 = phase shift 91-119, eletrical teacher or power engineer don't tell anythings .... why??? bad for bussiness???

ask again, phase shift 91-119 isn't good???only 90 degree phase shift is good???
Not exactly sure how you would do this geenee.   I know you can go 90 degrees leading current all the way to 90 degrees lagging current--that is 180 degrees of freedom.  I suspect if you could go past these limits, your generator would actually turn into a motor while producing power.  Solve that one and you have really got something interesting--call it a magnet motor/generator.  Not saying it cannot be done--I just cannot visualize some sort of circuit or mechanical arrangement that would do it.  Essentially this wouldn't just delay the Lenz Effect, it would reverse it completely.  No matter where you positioned the rotor, it would always try to turn and you would need a mechanical brake to stop it.  Sounds a little like the Yildiz motor.

And yes, a device like this would be bad for business.

geenee

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #63, on January 1st, 2014, 03:33 PM »Last edited on January 1st, 2014, 04:31 PM by geenee
Jimboot, i found picture from my country website(Thailand), not Myanmar.

Matt, I'm not sure about negative power factor. because information on internet  tell only voltage lead current by inductor or motor. power company tell about using big motor that need power factor correction. that don't tell about reactive power from capacitor or negative power factor.maybe i'm wrong,IMHO.

if phase shift(from voltage to current)105 degree that mean power factor = -0.26 .
from formula (PF=cos [angle degree]=cos 105 degree= -0.26).

if phase shift 135 degree that mean power factor = -0.7 .
negative power factor = return power more than use power.in some videos from youtube can make meter run backward.

maybe this is the secret of power company???

thanks
geenee

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #64, on January 1st, 2014, 04:46 PM »
geenee,

Let me just throw this theory of mine out there for you all to digest:

IF we can demonstrate a functional Q-Mo-Gen device as Sterling has indicated may actually exist, there also exists the possibility the motor and generator could be integrated into a single device.  Such a device would exhibit power factor characteristics unlike anything currently defined for public consumption.  This device would be self-running and capable of providing both mechanical and electrical energy in unison.

Now before we jump off the deep end of the swimming pool here, lets first see if we can close-loop a system having a separate motor and generator and try to learn what is happening inside this system to make it possible.  For now, we have a definite Lenz immune generator when we have a current leading voltage by 90 degree load attached.  Let's see how far this phenomena alone can take us.  There will be plenty of room to optimize if we successfully loop such a system.

geenee

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #65, on January 1st, 2014, 07:49 PM »Last edited on January 1st, 2014, 08:29 PM by geenee
thanks,Matt.

i had the answer, if can make the negative power factor than motor can generate power by itself without alternator.that must be hard to make negative power factor.the best for Q-Mo-Gen is zero power factor or 90 degree phase shift or 270 degree.

sorry about the question, i tried to understand about power factor and phase shift.i watched Luc's videos(reactive generator tutorial demo2).and got a thought from his wave forms(maybe more than 90 degree phase shift from voltage to current,about 250-270 degree) because that motor he was tested,it return power to grid,IMHO.


Jimboot

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #66, on January 1st, 2014, 10:37 PM »
Quote from geenee on January 1st, 2014, 03:33 PM
Jimboot, i found picture from my country website(Thailand), not Myanmar.


thanks
geenee
Humble apologies

Matt Watts

Q-Mo-Gen Concept
« Reply #67, on January 2nd, 2014, 11:51 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2014, 05:50 AM by Matt Watts
Okay gang,

I didn't shock myself (yet), but I have these sparks flying around in my head and I need to write them down someplace; here is as good as anywhere I reckon.


So the Q-Mo-Gen Concept as I see it right now is a looped device composed of a large generator and a smaller motor.  The reason for the large generator is that we need access to high current and high voltage, because what we are going to do with these two components is borrow them temporarily, align them so they are back in-phase to make real power.  We will then use this real power to turn the smaller motor.  Once we take that little chunk of energy and use it, we will separate it apart again and hand it back to the generator so it can be recycled.  

Now, here's the big question:  How do we give the energy back if we have already used it?  Smart question.  Well, energy is neither created nor destroyed right?  So all we did is borrow it, just a chunk for a short moment in time.  Certainly we can give it right back if we can't in-fact make it go away.  It never actually left the system, so it's still there.

Another question:  Why the bigger generator?  Another smart question.  When we convert from reactive power to real power, we lose about half the voltage and half the amperage merging the two so they are in-phase.  I have played with the simulator for hours changing values and watching the responses; I can see this happening.  The beauty is when we pull voltage and current back out of phase to hand back to the generator, the numbers go the opposite way--each one doubles.  So we again did not create or destroy the energy, we only transformed how the energy was arranged in time.

The other concept I haven't yet touched on is the Delayed Lenz Effect.  We have seen many devices claiming to be Lenz Free; whether they really are or not is up for debate.  I think even Paul Babcock's motor probably has some Lenz Effect.  So instead of trying to side-step mother nature, how about we use it to our advantage.  How about we just make good ol' Lenz wait for just a little bit.  If we do this, maybe instead of Lenz putting the brakes on inside the generator, he gives us a little shove instead.  All we have to do is turn the rotor a little and...  wait for it...  push us ahead instead of push us back.  Same way you time the pushing of a kid on a swing.  If you push before he gets to the apex, you'll slow him down, but if you wait until after the apex, your push will accelerate his motion.  So my theory on this one is by using the capacitor to align voltage and current in-phase and then turn it around and separate it out-of-phase, you cause a delay.  It's this delay that is actually helping the generator rotate, or at least not creating a condition where the motor has to push harder.


So anyway, I had to get this written down someplace before the fire department comes.  You all should know by now, that I'm the type of person who works with concepts; details are what we do when we know where we are going and have a map of how to get there.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #68, on January 3rd, 2014, 08:34 AM »Last edited on January 4th, 2014, 11:37 AM by gotoluc
Hi Matt and everyone,

you're on track with what I've been saying.  This circuit is not creating energy. What I think is going on in this circuit is by causing a time delay between the TWO electricity components (voltage & current) you don't destroy the electricity (aka don't kill the dipole) by short circuit like typical everyday circuit we use.
When the electricity components are 90 degrees out of phase they can go through a circuit, do work and come back out with next to no losses if there is minimal resistance in the circuit.
However, you need something to receive the return and store it or convert it to something useful. I think this is what the Alternator Gen is doing. So timing is very important and I'm now starting to think that a permanent magnet alternator gen may not work as well as an exciter rotor field alternator gen like I've been using in my demos and what Matt is also using.

Let me explain, for the past 3 days I've been busy converting a DC permanent magnet motor to an AC permanent magnet generator. It's a big job but I got it done and I was testing it last night and found the effect is not as obvious or as good as using an exciter field rotor generator.
When my series cap circuit is connected to this PM AC gen it's like something is out of timing!... I see the effect a little but it's like it's kind of having a fight inside the gen, like a motor out of timing. So I'm starting to think that the exciter rotor gen causes more of a delay then a PM gen and it could be this delay that makes the difference in helping the gen rotor to be pushed at the right time when the reactive power is returned.

More tests need to be done but I though I would share this new information.

Also, at the OU topic, user name nilrehob has been doing a lot of experiments with what I have shared and has prepared 2 pdf documents.
Here is his post:

Hi Luc,

As You requested, since I get little time left for experimentation, I have written a short 3-page pdf about what i call "Reactive Impulse". This will be my next area of research. Maybe You (or someone else) will find this interesting and beat me to implement it.

https://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/documents

/Hob

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #69, on January 3rd, 2014, 09:42 AM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 08:34 AM
So timing is very important and I'm now starting to think that a permanent magnet alternator gen may not work as well as an exciter rotor field alternator gen like I've been using in my demos and what Matt is also using.
Good insight Luc.  Allow me to add another piece to the puzzle:

My generator is a self excited (capacitor) brushless type.  It takes a good amount of torque to get this generator at full speed (3600 RPM), even with no load of any kind connected.  So I thought, maybe if I reduce the size of the capacitor I can spin it more easily.  Turns out this is a true statement, but mother nature has a twist of her own to add to it.  If I reduce the factory 45uF cap to 25uF, I can still produce some output voltage but it's about 30% less.  If I go smaller the output is zero.  When I run using the 25uF cap, guess what?  A reactive power load now slows the generator down, almost the same as using a purely resistive load.  So like I have mentioned to a few others, nature always finds a way to slip out the back door if you let it.

My next step is to go back to the factory capacitor and try using a larger motor to hold as many variables constant as I can.  Hopefully the data I can share with this updated setup will be enlightening.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #70, on January 3rd, 2014, 10:01 AM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2014, 10:03 AM by gotoluc
Yes Matt,

I'm aware of it also, as I've done those tests some time back and that's why I wanted a Permanent Magnet AC Gen so I can test it without having a exciter field cap but now it's not the same.

You actually don't need the Gen Factory cap since the series circuit cap can be used to excite the rotor. I think that was what you were writing?
However, when you do this don't expect to see a drop in power from the prime mover as now the gen exciter rotor magnet field cost the prime mover power to turn it. You could never get that for free to begin with and this was also one of the reasons I wanted a PM AC Gen to see if I could have a saving there but now it seems it has a timing issue.

I'll try to work it out with more tests and keep you all posted

Luc

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #71, on January 3rd, 2014, 10:29 AM »
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 10:01 AM
You actually don't need the Gen Factory cap since the series circuit cap can be used to excite the rotor. I think that was what you were writing?
Oh it seems you do need the exciter cap unless you are trying to make a boat anchor.  Took me a while to figure out how this sort of brushless generator actually works.  Best I can tell, the main stator is two pole, but the stator exciter winding is four or more pole, possibly six.  This makes it behave differently than a brush-type exciter where excitation voltage is connected to main stator winding voltage.

Something I haven't tried that you allude to in your statement is using grid power initially connected to the stator exciter winding and then switching it over to the main stator winding.  That could prove interesting.

I did take some measurements of the stator exciter voltages:

9 volts with no cap.
? volts with 25uF cap (need to take this measurement)
240 volts with the 45uF cap.

Because of the way the exciter builds voltage, I suspect it is not linear in nature which probably explains why using a smaller cap causes it to behave as I explained previously.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #72, on January 3rd, 2014, 10:49 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on January 3rd, 2014, 10:29 AM
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 10:01 AM
You actually don't need the Gen Factory cap since the series circuit cap can be used to excite the rotor. I think that was what you were writing?
Oh it seems you do need the exciter cap unless you are trying to make a boat anchor.
Well, my factory cap is only 12uf and I can take it out and just connect my circuit to the gen and the exciter field will kick in. But like I said, the prime mover will need to supply more power to turn the now magnetized rotor.

Luc

Matt Watts

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #73, on January 3rd, 2014, 12:49 PM »Last edited on January 3rd, 2014, 01:52 PM by Matt Watts
Quote from gotoluc on January 3rd, 2014, 10:49 AM
Well, my factory cap is only 12uf and I can take it out and just connect my circuit to the gen and the exciter field will kick in. But like I said, the prime mover will need to supply more power to turn the now magnetized rotor.
Isn't that interesting, not all generators work the same.  Yours is also brushless?

I read someplace about self-excited generators, they have been balanced in such a way to hold voltage constant under varying loads.  I'll bet in the case of Luc's 1000 watt generator, that is what the 12uF cap is there for--voltage stability.  On my 7kW generator, the cap seems to have two functions:  Voltage stability and exciter slip which sets up the condition to build voltage from the miniscule residual magnetism.  Now the only way to get exciter slip is to be outside of the synchronous speed, which is why the exciter is more than two pole.  If it was two pole, then at 3600 rpm it could only hold voltage, but never build voltage.  So with more than two poles, it has a gain loop there which also provides the feedback for voltage stability.  I'm pretty sure the 45uF capacitor was used because this value creates enough gain to drive the stator at full operating load of 7000 watts--probably way more than I need.

I also feel as Luc is finding out, the generator must be used in a specific range, or said another way, you must pick the correct motor size with the proper capacitor in order to have any chance of looping it.  I'll take a semi-educated guess this is somewhere around 4 to 1.  Meaning, your motor should probably be about 1/4 of the generator's optimal power value.  So for example, if my generator runs most efficiently at 3500 watts, the motor should need about 875 watts.  If we convert this to horsepower, that would be 1.2.  Therefore a motor approximately 1 1/2 horsepower, may be ideal for this generator.  Please keep in mind these are just numbers pulled out of the air, but I'm confident of the concept of a target window where things will likely work the best.  Here's what I would expect to see, though it hasn't been field verified yet:

A motor too large:  Draws too much current because of it's low resistance which messes up the phasing and pulls voltage way low.
A motor too small:  Cannot provide adequate torque to spin the generator at the needed speed.
A generator too large:  Draws a lot of torque just to keep the exciter energized.
A generator too small:  Cannot provide the voltage and current needed to effectively drive the motor.

These are just some boundaries I think we will run into.  Again, not verified except for the second one--the category my current setup is in.

gotoluc

RE: Motor-Generator Self-Looped with Usable Energy Left Over
« Reply #74, on January 3rd, 2014, 01:34 PM »
Yes, mine is also brushless but a 2 pole rotor. The stator looks like it could be used in an Induction motor.

Luc