#### brettly

##### Re: research information sharing
an interesting video of a nanobubble formed from water trapped in a nanoscale grid,
its interesting because of the scale at which the video is made, on the screen it shows a
5nanometer scale, since each water molecule is approx 2.75 angstroms across, it means you
would have approx 20water molecules across the 5nm scale indicated.

##### Re: research information sharing
just a note on previous video, the nature article that video relates to, mentions the pressure on the bubble is extremely high ( from memory I think it was 270atmospheres), so although the bubble is tiny the number of water molecules involved in  its creation might be quite large.
I'm also wondering if the shimmering effect on the video is the actually water molecules and some random motion. I"m not sure of the process that creates the bubble ( whether its electrically induced water splitting), but the bubble is entrapped in some form of graphene cage.
##### Re: research information sharing
just going back to Valentin  Petkovs last video on finding resonance of water between electrodes and his oscilliscope shots:

How can his results be interpreted? I dont understand exactly how the scope shots are interpreted, so I will just use the important results he notes in the video.
He used one 4 inch cell ( concentric tube style like stan I assume) probably not 2 flat plates.
Gap between tubes is 2.5mm ( 0.0025m)
He finds resonance at 7.3mhz, 27mhz and 45mhz ( timemark on video 4:20 7:10, 9:03) and at 8:43mins  he notes ac cell offset occuring.
These three resonant points he notes are shown by current decrease and 90deg phase shift in the two waveforms he is plotting.
Lets use the wave formula and find out the speed of the waves across the water gap:
7.3mhz = 18,250 m/s
27mhz = 67,500m/s
45mhz = 112,500m/s
So the question I have is, does each resonant point he found represent one wavelength, or does resonance occur at half wavelength? The above results are for one wavelength, but I think resonance will occur at half wavelength i.e. the gap of 2.5mm is really the half wavelength of the wave traversing the gap.
So keeping this in mind the speed of the wave across the gap ( using 5mm as one wavelength since resonance , I think, occurs at half wavelength) gives:
7.3mhz= 36500m/s
27mhz = 135000m/s
45mhz = 225000m/s
So if I'm doing the maths correctly, and if i'm understanding this correctly, those are damn fast waves, I'm guessing much faster than ionic transfer that is, much faster than the speed at which h+ and oh- will transfer across the gap. Thats just my guess, I still have to confirm the speeds at which h+ and oh- transfer through pure water, but I'm pretty sure it much slower than these figures.
So what exactly do these figures represent? They are still way way higher than the frequencies stan was using, he was in the lower khz range.
Valentin also mentions when there is phase shift the water is acting like a capacitor, which is another aspect I dont really understand.
So what exactly has Valentin discovered and how do we relate it to stans work?
The only analogy I can think of is this:
electrical waves ( em waves??) in copper wire, the actual wavefront transfer is very fast, a wave travels through the copper wire a bit slower than the speed of light, but the actual electrons themselves travel very slowly.
Perhaps this is a bit similar, there is some type of wavefront traverses the water rather quickly
( much slower than electrical wavefront in copper wire) and the ions in water, similar to electrons in copper travel very slowly.
( just to compare to acoustic waves in water, their speed is 1484m/s, much much slower)

##### Re: research information sharing
I just did some calculations on the hydronium ion velocity across the water gap, fortunately the data is not hard to find and calculate.
https://www.ld-didactic.de/documents/en-US/EXP/C/C4/C4412_e.pdf
on the last page contains example calculation and formula ( for a different ion but same equations apply).
It turns out to get the velocity of ions requires simple equation:
vel = mobility( ion) * E
mobility unit is metres squared/siemen/volt
E = electric field  units are volts/metre
mobility of hydronium ion in pure water is 0.000000362 msq/s/v
voltage for Valentin Petkov I used 2volts per 2.5mm gap which is 800volts/metre
substitute into first equation given above and you get 0.00000022 m/s
( which is faster than the ion given in the link above, which you would expect)
But the main thing is it confirms that the wave measured by Valentin Petkov crossing the 2.5mm gap is not due to ion displacement or ion movement across the gap.
It doesn't mean the hydronium ions are not involved though, its just the physical movement
of hydronium ions across the water is extremely slow process, and that movement of hydronium ions does not account for a fast transfer of energy across the water gap which
Valentin Petkov identified in his video.

But now I have a fairly simple method to find ion velocities for different voltages it should be possible to check if physical movement of ions relates to stans frequencies and voltages.
Value for mobility of hydronium ion came from this paper:
http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/468/2137/18

##### Re: research information sharing
just a note about ringing in water capacitor discharge effects,
this paper
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a335128.pdf
I think I've linked this paper previously, it gives some good examples and calculations for water capacitors, the paper is for high power short pulses, but there is some very good info.
With regards to ringing, equation 3.15 in the paper gives a formula to calculate the ringing frequency of a water capacitor setup in form of pulse power network,
there is probably enough information there to do some calculations on stans tube setup.
This is what I think might occur: during self discharge of water capacitor, the inductance of the water and the capacitance of the water act like an LC cirucit, and a natural ringing frequency can be expected. So it may be possible to account for high frequency ripples in output of a discharging water capacitor, in fact it might be possible to estimate the frequency of that.

Of particular interest in the paper they go into the effective hold off time of a water ( or oil ) capacitor, the time the water can hold onto the voltage after charging. They call this factor
torr ( eff )........it might explain relaxation time in a previous paper I'm analysing.
This hold off time ( could also be called a relaxtion time) will certainly be related to stans work,
they give a number of different values quoted by others , and its in the lower microsecond time range, certainly near the frequencies of stans system. It might seem obvious but the hold off time should be longer than the charging time for stans system i.e. the water needs to hold the charge long enough for the water capacitor to be charged.
##### Re: research information sharing
interesting video, showing water capacitor, I assume metal inner/metal outer and water dielectric,
showing isolated sparking, on air outside side of outside cylinder, dont know much about, just interesting effect at 5kv.

another video shows similar effect but has water outside the electrodes, previously I had thought in  the video below, the sparking was coming from all parts of the water, but it seems to be occuring on the outside surface of one electrode ( rectangular area ), similar to the first vid linked in this post.

#### Ris

##### Re: research information sharing
That's interesting -these sparks there is no rational reason why they are there     perhaps something :nuke: :blink:

#### brettly

##### Re: research information sharing
the author of first video above suggests a reason for the sparking in his video.

Going back to this paper
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a335128.pdf
( this paper is a thesis document, the original also on the net, but has exact same info in it)

Just after figure 11 there is some discussion of electron transfer in water capacitor, its quite interesting info.
They give a value for the electron mobility of 0.015 cmsq/volt.sec in pure water.
So some previous calculations I did on hydronium ion mobility could be used to calculate electron mobility across the water gap in stans system. ( note the cm units need to be changed to metres before using the formulas ).
There is also some discussion of proton motion being the main means of charge transfer across water gaps in electric fields ( as mentioned in other research papers also).
Its also stated that electrons are bound tightly to water molecules even under very high electric fields.
Going back to formula 3.15 of this paper ( given as equation 21 in the original thesis), I think it could be used to find the natural ringing frequency of stans tube.
The formula is given in the first picture attached. The second picture shows the formula as I think it could be used in stans water capacitor. Simply plugging in the inductance and capacitance of stans tube will give a frequency in Hz. So the inductance of the water capacitor also needs to be measured.
( since in stans tube there are two capacitances involved, one for each bilayer, but we only  know the overall capacitance, which is the sum of the inverse of each capacitance, which gives the second equation attached).....hope that makes sense.

##### Re: research information sharing
Idea:
two electrodes in water, each electrode has a capacitance formed by bilayer when electric field is applied. How to determine the capacitance of each bilayer?
Using a capacitance meter across the water gap will give overall capacitance not each electrodes capacitance.
Since stan is using LC resonant circuit on each side of the water capacitor, it should be possible to find each electrodes capacitance by finding the resonant frequency eg when a light globe in parallel to the coil lights up or with oscilliscope etc.
So knowing the inductance of the each coil, and the resonant frequency, you should be able to plug into the formula in last post to calcul ( ate the capacitance on each electrode.
Each electrode should have slightly different capacitance ( due to ion movement etc).
Once the capacitance values are found, you should be sum the capacitances appropriately and the total capacitance of the water gap as measured with a meter should be confirmed.
##### Re: research information sharing
the bulk water between electrodes ( as distinct from the bilayers formed by aligned water molecules adjacent to each electrode surface), will also have its own capacitance ( resistance and inductance also), but I'm guessing it will be negligible, there might be some discrepency when summing the individual bilayer capacitances , to the overall capacitance, perhaps any discrepency might relate to the bulk water capacitance, my guess it will be tiny discrepency.
##### Re: research information sharing
another interesting paper, which gives some information on the capacitance/inductance of pure water between electrodes
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-666X/5/1/1/htm

figure1 and text related to it is the only part of the paper worth noting.
They split the water cell into two ways it can act:
1. at low frequencies : bilayer capictance and series resistance of bulk water
2. at high frequencies: bulk water capacitance

at very low frequencies ( lower than stan uses i.e. under 1hz) the bilayer capacitance plays a major role and dominates ( i.e. there is time for the double layer to form by ion flow)

at low frequencies i.e. in stans range, the double layer plays no role, and its simply the resistance of the water  dominates ( under 1mhz)

at high frequencies the capacitance of the bulk water dominates

Figure 1 explains it well. So if I understand it correctly for stans system, in the khz range he used, it would simply be the water resistance dominates ( no need to worry about bilayer capacitance as it doesn't develop that quickly due to slow migration of ions).
So perhaps it could be that stan was simply using the resistance of the water for current
limiting, and the bulk capacitance of the water for resonant frequency pulse with series inductors ( windings).
##### Re: research information sharing
There is a puzzle about Puharich and Meyer.....I'm trying to solve.
I have heard reference to a Nikola Tesla circuit for a water splitting device, but I've never seen
it until today. I was watching a youtube video  on hho resonance and the tesla circuit was
shown at the end of the video, it appears to be exact same circuit as used by Puharich and Meyer!
Does anyone have a copy or link to the Tesla water splitting circuit??
I tried to download the video on youtube but it didn't download correctly and on going back to what I thought was the correct video I couldn't find it again! very frustrating.
If the Tesla circuit is genuine, and as Puharich is documented as having access to some of Teslas previouly missing works ( Puharich also claims this in one of his youtube videos), it would appear that Puharich has copied Teslas work......and even patented it.

#### Matt Watts

##### Re: research information sharing
Please post the link to the particular Tesla video you are referring to.

Thanks brettly.

#### brettly

##### Re: research information sharing
well I finally found the diagram of tesla water splitting circuit,
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-222.html

picture posted by harishsingh on 07072012 shown below:
this pic doesn't have names on the parts, but its basically same as Puharich and Meyer,
I'm not sure on all the parts shown , but you can see the basics of the circuit are same.
I have to assume its by tesla, but no idea if that is the truth of it.
##### Re: research information sharing
a bit more delving have found reference to this picture on this page:
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm
its shown as figure 35, and seems it is not water splitting device after all, but damn its similar type of circuit.
##### Re: research information sharing
also looks like meyer/ and circuit has been discussed on this forum previously
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1185.0
I annotated the tesla circuit to give some info on its purpose, it was wireless energy transmitter
( em radiation). Large loop of wire went around a room, tesla held a coil in his hands ( which he says is matched to his bodies resonance), and sparks etc appear to exist from his body, but its really the coil picking up the em radiation.
The breaker points are probably in oil. I can see the circuit of tesla uses common components
to stan and puharich, and at first glance they appear to be a similar circuit. There are some similarities but its certainly not a water splitting circuit.

##### Re: research information sharing
heres a good research paper on measuring the resonant frequencies between plates
http://www.electrochemsci.org/papers/vol8/80303731.pdf

( they use electrolyte not pure water), they go into detail of how they measured it, for example, with a 10mm gap and weak electrolyte they get 12.2mhz. Its similar method to Valentin Petkovs last video.
Its a dc test, with frequency from 0 to 25mhz.
They describe the resonance point as where the current across the cell is maximum.
They give some excellent data as graphs, quite hard for me to decipher but would be useful
for the boffins. For example figure 6a, shows the conductance values ( in Db) and below 100khz there are many maxima and minima, though the peak conductance for that particular cell occurs at 800khz.
They also mention the resonance is influenced by plate size, gap spacing and molarity of the solution.

##### Re: research information sharing
Interesting document brettly. It remembers the definition of resonance by Andrija Puharich on his vídeo lectures over the youtube.

#### brettly

##### Re: research information sharing
I'll have to go back over puharichs system, I've never really looked in depth into it.

Regarding bubbles and acoustics in hho. I read recently a paper about self combustion of nanobubbles in electrolysis, a researcher was hoping to make some sort acoustic device using
the phenomenon ( I didn't bookmark the paper), but came across similar article
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep39381
on same subject, seems some very tiny bubbles ( 200nm) spontaneously combust, and create an acoustic pressure wave. Seems it occurs at room temperature and if its an integral part of hho production then this might account for any acoustic resonance stan 'might' have been using, though I've never come across any reference by stan to acoustics ( apart from the slots in the top of some of his tubes).

##### Re: research information sharing
This this an important experiment from puharich

http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm

hear from himself at very first seconds of the vídeo, his definition of resonance.
But there is much more things happening, resonance is important but is not the whole thing.

https://youtu.be/2mcEcys8-lg?t=11s

#### Matt Watts

##### Re: research information sharing
Resonance gives you maximum current utilizing minimal power.

Without resonance feedback by way of a current sensing device, efficiency is limited to no more than 50% of what is possible.

Makes sense to me.  Good find X-Blade.

#### brettly

##### Re: research information sharing
thanks for that info, I have viewed the Puharich lectures before, but good to go over the details again, I see he used AC pulses rather than dc, and he specifically mentions acoustic energy playing a role. He is also talking briefly about the frequency being much lower than stans frequencies, and that ionic movement plays a role, which should be the case for low frequencies.
Thanks matt, ok, maximum current at resonant point.

The last paper I linked shows for ac electrolysis in the khz region, self combustion of nanobubbles containing hho occurs, so it might account for Puharich acoustic energy,
but for stans system its dc pulsed electrolysis so its hard to see how any nanobubbles would have both h and o in them, with dc h at one electrode and o at the other.

#### Gunther Rattay

##### Re: research information sharing
Quote from X-Blade on January 11th, 2017, 10:44 AM
This this an important experiment from puharich

http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm

hear from himself at very first seconds of the vídeo, his definition of resonance.
But there is much more things happening, resonance is important but is not the whole thing.

https://youtu.be/2mcEcys8-lg?t=11s
>Puharich showed that AC excitation of the cell can start gas production.

#### brettly

##### Re: research information sharing
In all my calculations on acoustic waves in stans cell, I had assumed that the acoustic waves( if present) would travel across the cell from one surface to the other.
If stan had 3mm gap ( I'm not sure what gap he used) and assume resonance at half wavelength,
then the frequency is 250khz, about a factor of 10 too high.
This might seem rather obvious but if you do the calculation for the length of the cell ( rather than across the cell) the frequencies look correct for acoustic waves.
see diagram below
For example: lets say tube length is 12cm, speed of sound in water 1484m/s
using vel=freq x wavelength
Plugging the values in gives a fequency of 12.5khz.....right in the ball park.
Lets say he used 12cm tube length ( I'm not sure what he used!), and resonance point to fit 2 wavelengths along the length of the tube ( wavelength 6cm), gives 25khz.
Anyhow the numbers match stans frequencies.
So if stan was thinking along those lines, that an acoustic wave travels along the length of the water ( rather than across the water from plate to plate) the numbers would seem to support that.
What mechanism would produce sound waves in water, I really dont know, and why they would travel along the water column rather than across the water column would be even harder to try to explain.

Lets do same calculation for the injector just using the length of the water column in the voltage zone:
length approx 1 inch ( 2.54cm), lets use 2 wavelengths for resonance gives lambda of :
2.54cm / 2 = 1.27cm
frequency = 1484/ 0.0127= 117khz
So anyone working on the injector might try that method to get  experimental frequency for acoustic resonance.