research information sharing

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #350, on May 31st, 2016, 05:30 AM »
just came across this video, it would seem to confirm some of my theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hLC1Oy2460Q

The magnetron is overpowered somewhat, but you can see at just after 11sec mark,  a small explosion occurs when the plasma begins. What is interesting is he has put some water soaked paper on the antanna to start the plasma. You can see some steam coming off the soaked paper soon after startup ( heating phase), as soon as a piece of the paper combusts you get an explosion. My theory is that the plasma created splits some of the water into h and o ( and other products) due to its high temperature, some how the h and o recombine giving the explosion. Once the water is gone, its an air plasma sustained by the microwave energy.
The portion of the video where the explosion occurs is the interesting bit.
You can see steam or water vapor leave the antanna from the explosion.
The part that is difficult for me to understand is how the h and o is recombining, perhaps as soon as it leaves the plasma its reaches a lower temperature that is hot enough for it to recombine, but not hot enough to keep the h and o dissasociated.
I'm not sure what this would mean for an IC engine. It would probably mean that a second spark is not required to recombine the h and o, it will naturally combust either when it leaves the high temperature part of the plasma or soon after the plasma is turned off.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #352, on June 6th, 2016, 06:12 AM »
just researching a bit on powering magnetrons, seems there are the big transformer type, and newer type use inverter type power supply. Heres a video on using inverter type power supply and the input signal required to power them up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vchhc7SLcaw

Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #353, on June 6th, 2016, 06:22 AM »Last edited on June 6th, 2016, 06:29 AM
Quote from brettly on June 6th, 2016, 06:12 AM
just researching a bit on powering magnetrons, seems there are the big transformer type, and newer type use inverter type power supply.
I did some checking on this a while back and you can in fact order these invertor type modules as replacement parts for some microwaves.  They are still a little expensive, but cheaper than buying the whole oven just for scrapping parts.

The only concern I had was all the computer logic that drives them--may be difficult to override all the normal operating parameters so you can use it the way you want.  Very possible if you do this, they will fry themselves.  In that video it looks fairly easy to get the inverter operational--I'd like to see more and if he runs into any strange issues.


brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #354, on June 7th, 2016, 12:53 AM »Last edited on June 7th, 2016, 12:55 AM
he seems to have solved the issues of how to run them, using the pwm signal via frequency and on/off time as follows:
logic wires:
brown=neg
                 
orange=enable....
110hz square wave, 50% duty cycle, max volt 3.3v ( but he found grounding the orange via 1kohm resistor also works)

yellow= power control......
 3.3-5volt 220hz square wave, with variable duty cycle
 ( have to start below 43% duty cycle then can ramp up duty cycle,
 which controls the output power).....

Main issue I think is the danger from the high voltage and the heatsink having high voltage through it.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #355, on June 7th, 2016, 01:13 AM »Last edited on June 7th, 2016, 01:16 AM
nice video showing magnetron filament running in place in an opened magnetron, the filaments run on low voltage ( 3volts and a few amps).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Th9GcFuTU
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #356, on June 13th, 2016, 02:38 AM »
just some thoughts:
I am wondering if this is possible:
use the voltage/current intended for the sparkplug in a car and route that energy directly into a magnetron. Its not likely there would be enough energy for plasma to split water, but it might be a method to increase a cars efficiency ( it seems well established that microwave plasma is a method for increasing burn rate and combustion efficiency).

There would be a number of issues to address:

i'm thinking here of somehow puting a magnetron directly at the end of a sparkplug
( so no coax is required and no modification of the head)
 
1.a spark is still needed to initiate the plasma in combustion zone
( is it possible to use the sparkplug voltage/current from the car coil to create a small spark but also power a magnetron for a short period)

2. can the spark voltage/current be directly connected to the magnetron?
The magnetron requires a low voltage and current to heat the filament inside 3v 3amp approx ( electron source), the filament is one connection of the high voltage in a microwave oven. The other connection needs to be positive with respect to the filament, so can a car ignition coil power be couple directly to the magnetron? The positive high voltage in a microwave magnetron is via the magnetron case, so would the magnetron need to be isolated electrically from the car engine?

3. Is the voltage of a car ignition coil suitable? magnetron in microwave oven voltage is much lower voltage 4kv or so), the voltage delivered to the magnetron relates to the power output ( I think!). So i'm guessing 20kv approx of a car ignition coil should be ok.

4. can a magetron be connected directly to a sparkplug via the antanna of the magnetron,

Some of these questions are a bit difficult to work out, any feedback from the forum folks most welcome



3.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #357, on June 27th, 2016, 03:12 AM »
just going back to electro1622 video of injector steam test

https://youtu.be/MMDoA-J16fw

He replied back to my question if the steam traverses the 0.01" slots in the injector, he confirmed it does.
So it 'appears' that the steam is not converted back to bulk liquid phase as it traverses the narrow slots,
that would tend to indicate a different process/mechanism is required to split water in the injector,  compared to
the wfc where liquid water is in contact with both electrodes. I would think a bit unfortunate and might prove to be
very difficult to split water in the injector voltage zone. I'm not sure if this is conclusive proof that water exists in droplet form in the injector voltage zone, but it would appear to be so.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #358, on June 27th, 2016, 04:54 AM »
I'm not prepared to give up on the idea that water droplets condense in the narrow slots of stans injector, and allow the water splitting to act on bulk water as in his wfc.
Electro1622 used steam through the injector, as far as I"m aware stan used bulk water in droplet form which may have been warmed ( to prevent freezing in cold weather). So using steam in the injector is not a particularly accurate test of the injector. Also using steam complicates the picture somewhat. Electro1622 noticed rapid heating of the injector using steam, there is a steam heating process used in industry which works on a similar principle, where steam is directed through a narrow orifice ( it speeds up and pressure decreases), and is then mixed with cold liquids, its a method for rapidly heating cold liquids, there is a fast transfer of heat occurs ( called a steam injector sometimes).
There is also a device called a steam ejector used in steam locomotives, which uses converging/diverging orifices which ultimately increases cold water pressure so it can enter a high pressure boiler. The video below shows its details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wsiXPgfdlI

To understand what is happening with respect to pressure/volume/temperature and speed of water in stans injector needs alot of research and probably alot of mathematical theory to get an indepth understanding of it. Though it should be possible to do some simple experiments that might give enough information to assist getting a working meyer injector.
My view is that unless the water is in bulk liquid form whilst in the voltage zone of stans injector, the likelihood of getting it to work is very low.

It would be possible to determine mathematically if the droplets coalesce ( into bulk water) in or before the voltage zone, but would be complex and time consuming process. It would be simpler to set up some experiments to determine if the droplets coalesce in or before the voltage zone.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #359, on June 30th, 2016, 04:52 AM »
Back to the magnetron:
there are only two electrical inputs to a magnetron:
1. heater filament : 3v 10amp or so......provides electrons ( ac)
2. high voltage potential : 4kv or so, low amps, heater filament acts as negative, and case of magnetron acts as postive ( I think I have that the right way around) ( dc )

So in theory it should be simple to power a magnetron using a car ignition coil spark, the heater filament can also be powered by dc.

Another way of puting it, the heating filament gets red hot and supplies electrons, the electrons leave the filament ( in vacuum) and travel along the high voltage potential gradient, so the filament needs to be more negative than the case of the magnetron ( in order for the electrons to be attracted to the postive potential of the case).

Some issues to tackle:
1. if a cars spark plug is negative or positive grounded.
2. one research paper I found used the spark plugs electrode without modification for both sparking function, and to act as an antannae for 2.45ghz microwave.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA582523
 The standard spark plug can be used without modification for 2.45ghz transmission ( might require removing the internal resistor of spark plug...will have to re-read the above paper).

So I think I can wire up a magnetron to give a pulse discharge, theres a few things to condsider,
it would I think be extremely simple for someone with more electrical experience than myself.

Theres not really alot of components required to test it.



Re: research information sharing
« Reply #360, on June 30th, 2016, 05:33 AM »
relevant section of magnetron wiring, just showing section from ac input to transformer, as can be seen its quite simple ( cap charges on one cycle of ac, discharges on other cycle, due to diode).
heating filament powered by ac.
To get a single pulse discharge ( just for experiment) would require  heating coil ( dc will also work just have to heat the coil based on someone else who just used a 3v drill battery), and then a high voltage pulse of correct polarity.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #361, on July 5th, 2016, 06:57 PM »
new video from valentin petkov ( valyonpz), very nice research work using 8xa circuit with car alternator and he achieve step charge and excellent explanation of how it works including working circuit diagram, amazing efforts!
" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ygEyRW4PQ "
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #362, on July 6th, 2016, 04:01 AM »
heres an interesting video showing a magnetron being used after being paritally dismantled. The vacuum is created via a glass bottle over the opened magnetron, you can see the heater element glowing, then the glow discharge of the microwaves.......basically you can inside the magnetron while it is operating.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLN5He2P8C8
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #363, on July 11th, 2016, 02:51 AM »
Valentin Petkov has posted another video, showing effect of rpm of car alternator on output of wfc tubes, he includes circuit for 3 cell output in his experiment, he  shows signicant increase in gas production as voltage of alternator increases with rpm ( non regulated).

" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5CAce0ljgM "

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #364, on July 11th, 2016, 03:17 AM »Last edited on July 11th, 2016, 03:18 AM
was just looking over valentin petkovs latest circuit.
( he gives link in last video)
It appears the pulse forming section is running on 12v with its own source of power, and also there is a power source via a variac connecting with the alternator coil via a bifilar coil.
I cant say I fully understand this, I am aware that car alternators require some voltage ( normally from car battery) to energise the coils, so I'm assuming the variac power is required to energise the alternator coils. It is interesting to see how the bifilar coil is included and its polarity.
I must say thanks to Mr Petkov for including his circuits, its extremely useful information.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #365, on July 11th, 2016, 04:04 AM »
I was just looking at a video on car alternators,
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzHYtA5LbAA)
 it seems a very tiny amount of energy is required to energise the coils,
so i'm really not sure of how the variac power in Petkovs circuit is functioning or what its role is, anyone got any ideas on that?

Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #366, on July 12th, 2016, 12:05 PM »
I do know if there is any residual magnetism in the rotor core, the stator will produce electrical output even with no rotor exciter current.

It's possible Petkov is using the variac to essentially degauss the rotor core on demand, bringing it into and out of a magnetized state.

There has been quite a bit of talk about rotary transformers lately; a car alternator is one such device if properly controlled.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #367, on November 1st, 2016, 11:52 AM »Last edited on November 7th, 2016, 03:03 AM
new video posted by alexander petkov ( valyonpz, valy!)
here
" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se9W6iUnujM "
This is an interesting video, I think you could do a thesis on it, I think there is much can be gained from study of it.
He quotes from stans ep0103656 a2 patent, in particular reference to a spheroidal resonator water splitting device. Stan quoted by Valy
 "related to the motion of the water molecule in travelling from one plate to the other"
and
 " some given frequency of the molecular motion".
and
" the direction the water molecules may travel from the inner sphere (15) to the outer sphere (9)"
There is I believe a slight error here by stan, what he is talking about is the propogation of a wave, not the water molecules actually travelling from one plate to the other. If the water molecules were actually  travelling from one plate to the other you would have a massive flow of water. He is really talking about a wave travelling from one plate to the other brought about by the molecular motion of the water, the water molecules would only move a very short distance, such as in a compression wave travelling through water. Does this compression wave manifest itself as a sound wave, it seems to be the only conclusion you can draw that it is a sound wave.
Instead of Stan saying "motion of the water molecule" he probably should have said " motion of the water molecule wave".
Its probably a minor detail, but it certainly seems to suggest sound wave propagation occurs as a result of dc pulsing of the plates. This would then infer that there is some process occurs at the plate surface where  a water molecule shifts position very rapidly in response to the positive or negative pulse. Is it possible that this sound wave ( water vibration) occurs at both the positive and negative plate? In stans spheroidal water splitter he suggests it only occurs in one direction i.e. the wave only travels in one direction. That might be correct, I think  it would depend on the alignment of the nanolayer of water molecules next to the plate surface ( debye layer).
Where stan mentions " exceed the impediment of water", I think he is saying once the standing waves are established in the water, energy is transferred to the vibration of the water molecules to such an extent that the water is split apart into H and O.
It is a very simplistic view of a water molecule, he is basically saying that the water molecule is vibrated ( stretched?) to the point of breaking its covalent bonds, the energy being supplied by the back and forth movement of the water molecules in response to an external dc field.
The switching of the field on/off being at a rate equal to the resonate frequency of compression waves in water i.e. sound waves dependent on the spacing and shape of the resonant cavity. This may suggest the shape/dimensions of the sparkplug injector voltage zone require more examination.
I have not gone over the resonant frequencies and method Valy uses in the video in detail...but...there will no doubt be an explanable pattern ( modes ).
( removed mention of 1.6mhz)
It would certainly offer a nice explanation for the necessity to use pulse lock loop circuit, in order to maintain standing waves ( resonant frequency) as the speed of sound changes depending on the type of water used, or as the temperature etc changes in the water in the tubes.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #368, on November 1st, 2016, 12:40 PM »Last edited on November 7th, 2016, 03:05 AM
just a quick look at the video he quotes 7.3mhz, 27mhz, 45mhz for 2.5mm spacing of plates.
He also quotes 113microsiemens/cm for conductivity of the water he used.
(removed bit of text was in error)

I am a little confused but I need to go over the video in great detail to understand it.
One thing I'm not familiar with is the dc bias or dc offset, he mentions it changes from dc to ac at higher frequencies. I'm a novice with oscilliscopes and I'm afraid I dont understand these terms, can anyone who has a keen interest in this video offer some more details to understand the video.
If petkovs' studies are correct then it would seem excellent evidence that compression ( sound ) waves are a major player in stans' systems. That should make going forward much easier.


Re: research information sharing
« Reply #369, on November 1st, 2016, 12:56 PM »
just an idea for determining resonant frequency at any given time. Since the frequency is dependent on the speed of sound which is varying, it would be possible to measure speed by a ping of sound takes to traverse the water. Linking the time it takes for a sound ping to traverse the water gap between electrodes, to the frequency would be a nice/simple way to lock resonant frequency to speed of sound through water. Although to actually make such a device would be tricky, unless some such device already exits ( which I'm guessing it does).
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #370, on November 2nd, 2016, 02:40 AM »Last edited on November 2nd, 2016, 02:48 AM
heres an ultrasonic ping/echo diy project, something similar to this would suffice for determining speed of sound in water in order to modulate the frequency of the pulses.
Since bubbling in the tubes effects the speed of sound, ideally a ping/echo device would be best placed somewhere in the tube if possible.
http://arduinosensors.com/index.php/tag/parallex-ping/
seems the devices are quite cheap, heres some on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/waterproof-ultrasonic-sensor
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #371, on November 3rd, 2016, 03:16 AM »
if I'm understanding stans system correctly there is a bit of an issue to resolve.

1. The vic coils in series with the water between electrodes ( capacitor) require one single frequency to create resonance. I'll call this resonance 1 ( LC series circuit).
( further more each coil must match the capacitance of the water in order they both require the same exact frequency for resonance, one coil has slight different inductance ( number of windings) in order for this too occur.

2. one particular frequency also is necessary to acquire standing wave conditions in the given water/electrode configuration, this relates to the pressure wave propogation across the water ( which is a sound wave in nature). Call this resonance 2 ( sound standing wave pattern).

so there are two resonances to consider for optimal operation. Since both these resonances are variable due to changes in water conductivity which is not static over time, how to reconcile this issue?
My thinking is that the standing wave pattern should be primary consideration initially, find what frequency gives minimum current draw ( as in valyonpz video in previous post), use that frequency as the optimum frequency for water splitting ( this is on the assumption that the sound/compression waves are playing a critcial role in efficient water splitting process).
I would then configure the vic coils so that their unique resonant frequency matches the frequency that gives minimum current draw for the sound-standing waves.
The problem remains how to vary the frequency so that both resonant conditions are matched as the water conductivity changes. Its quite a difficult thing to solve I would think.

Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #372, on November 3rd, 2016, 10:18 AM »
Brettly, your detailed look into these things, I have a small question I'm hoping you may already know the answer to.

You know how when using a microscope with a liquid sample, a drop is placed on a glass slide and another glass slide is placed over it right.  The liquid spreads out and the two slides are somewhat held together by the surface tension of the liquid.

With water and its properties, how close together can these two slides be before the surface tension of the water no longer allows any water from the outside to enter between these two glass plates?

The reason I ask this is because we know the smaller the distance between two plates, the higher the capacitance, given the plates are conductive.  At some closeness though, water would be unable to fill any spaces when/if a portion of this water is turned to gas.

What I'm trying to determine is the maximum capacitance possible for a given plate cell arrangement.  In knowing this, it sets one of the variables needed for finding and sustaining resonance.  If I know how high the capacitance can be and I know the inductive properties of the VIC, I should be able to calculate the frequency range I need to run at.

The point in all this to set a running frequency up front and build the VIC and WFC to resonate pretty close to the frequency I have picked.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #373, on November 5th, 2016, 11:41 AM »
I dont think I can help much with that question, apart from saying allowing the gas to escape from the water gap might be a limiting factor in how close together that plates can be, you dont wont to interfere with bubble formation by having the plates too close together, which might force the bubbles to merge, and take out a large area of the plates from gas formation.
I'm thinking allowing the bubbles to escape might be important than than the restriction of  water to enter the gap as a rate limiting process.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #374, on November 7th, 2016, 03:16 AM »Last edited on November 7th, 2016, 04:13 AM
I've gone over petkovs last video in more detail ( I've also gone back and changed my last few posts to take into account some updated information he has added/edited into his video information section ( the 'show more' button under his video).
I have minimal experience with oscilliscopes, after watching a rewatching his video in detail I can see the resonant points he talks about, but I dont understand exactly what the oscilliscope is showing as he varies the frequency. That doesn't matter too much, what is important is the frequencies he identifies where minimum current draw occurs in his cell. There are 3 frequencies he finds:
first is 7.3mhz, second is 27mhz and third is 45mhz.
So which one of these is the primary frequency? I"ll assume its 7.3mhz ( I"m guessing here).
He states the water gap spacing is 2.5mm in his testing rig. So if we use speed of sound in water as 1.6km/s using some formulas it should be possible to see if this frequency is related to the sound waves in water. In his video he shows an example of calculating resonant frequency of a water gap using speed of sound in water, the examples he gives are 1mm gap, 10mm gap and 20mm gap. The resonant frequencies for 1mm gap is 1.6mhz, for 10mm gap its 160khz. He doesn't give the resonant frequency by calculation for 2.5mm gap so I will work it out. ( he uses electrodroid program to calculate resonant frequency).

I've tried a few basic calculations and thus far I cant get any confirmation that the frequency of 7.3mhz is related to speed of sound. For example using vel=freq * wavelength
inputing vel=1484m/s ( speed of sound in pure water)
and frequency 7.3mhz ( 7300000hz)
gives wavelength of 0.2mm which is a factor of about 10times out, as petkov states 2.5mm gap.
How to reconcile this answer with his result of 7.3mhz for resonance?
Checking Petkovs calculations on electrodroid program for the expected frequencies. For example Petkov uses 1600m/s as speed of sound in water, inputing 1mm ( 0.001m)gap into formula above gives: 1.6mhz as he predicted.So electrodroid seems reliable to use.
A bit of research showed that the speed of sound in water can be non-linear depending on many factors, so using 1.6km/s or 1.484km/s ( pure water) may not be accurate for determining if sound waves are actually playing a role in the process.
I might be missing something here but I cant seem to relate the speed of sound in water with Petkovs' results. Its possible sound waves are not playing a role at all?
It should be possible to use 7.3mhz and speed of sound in water value and simple formulas to get approx 2.5mm gap but it doesn't seem possible.
I'm wondering if Petkovs' water gap figure of 2.5mm is accurate?
There are a few possibilities here:
1. 2.5mm gap is not accurate
2. speed of sound for Petkovs' test water is not anywhere near common values quoted for pure water
3. sound is not involved in this process at all and something else is happening to give these resonant frequencies
4. the last alternative is that my understanding is too limited to give accurate answers