research information sharing

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #400, on November 20th, 2016, 11:16 PM »
nyquist plot for pure water ( i'm not sure how to interpret these plots as yet)

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #401, on November 20th, 2016, 11:44 PM »
bode plot for ultra pure water ( up), distilled water ( dis), city water ( cw) and heavy water ( d20)
ac frequency used
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #402, on November 21st, 2016, 12:14 AM »
this is quite a heavy research paper,
http://jrossmacdonald.com/jrm/wp-content/uploads/261WaterIScomparison.pdf
but has some interesting info can be gained:
the impedance ( resistance to charge transfer, which can be both pos and neg ions, also can be viewed as resistance to electron flow, or ability to lower current transfer), arises in pure water from the presence of h or oh ions, which are very low in their numbers in pure water.

So basically the resistance of the pure water is dependent on the h and oh ions.
If there were no h or oh ions, the resistance would be infinite, no charge transfer would occur.
( in non pure water there will be many different types of ions for charge transfer).
Its one in a billion molecules in pure water are available for charge transfer at any given time, hence very high resistance.
The h and oh ions have different mobilities in water.

there is a value for the proton mobility in pure water it is:
0.00362 cmsq/vs ( the units are confusing)
 
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #403, on November 26th, 2016, 12:55 AM »Last edited on November 27th, 2016, 02:08 AM
this paper looks at the resistance of pure water between electrodes ( platinum) with a very thin layer of water between them. I'm not sure how relevant it is to stans injector though.
http://repo.flib.u-fukui.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10098/8098/1/Water2_clear_rpstry.pdf
In the paper they found there is an unexpected change in the resistance/impedance of the pure water when the electrodes are spaced very closely together ( in their case they went as close as 5microns apart).

 In Stans injector the voltage zone spacing of electrodes is 0.01inch ( 0.254mm) which is 245microns. So the effects observed in this study should might not apply to stans injector system but I'm not sure if the effect they observed will be relevant for a 245micron gap, the gap spacing they used was quite a bit narrower than 245micron. So i'm guessing the standard water resistance values will apply.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #404, on November 27th, 2016, 03:09 AM »
going back to petkovs video and the quotes from stans patent in that video, where stan mentions
the movement of water molecules towards the electrodes, I had thought that it would be more correct to say a wave of energy through the water ( acoustic).
I"ve been wondering could it be the movement of ions through the water stan was talking about?
this paper gives some data on the movement of ions due to electric field potentials, the voltages go up to 100v which is in the region stan was using.
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep37236
They measure ion movement velocities in narrow channels, they get results of between 200microns per second, to much lower speeds ( depending on what part of the channel is being looked at), these speed are way to low to be responsible for any resonance effects in stans system. Acoustic waves are certainly in the ball park for appropriate speeds, but using Petkovs data the numbers were out by a factor of 10 ( perhaps I made some calculation error?).
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #405, on November 27th, 2016, 04:01 AM »
perhaps this paper is more appropriate to what stan was referring to by water molecular movement, it shows the influence of quite a high electric field ( kv) on de-ionised water droplet shape.
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.114.054501
They use a pulsed electric field, and the time for the droplet to reach maximum height is in the order of milliseconds, which is right in the ball park for stans systems.
The question I'm interested in , what is the cause of the deformation of shape?
The tests are on deionised water,
so what is causing the  attraction of the water to the high voltage electrode?
is the movement of  h and oh ions that are creating a charged water surface?
is it the bilayer of reorientated water molecules near to the surface?
is the bulk of the water screened by the debye layer so that the bulk of the water plays no role?
Since the time frame is in the millisecond range, I suspect this movement of water phenomenon is what stan is referring to, but it is still very much a mystery to me of how it operates. And whether or not it still operates between electrodes rather than a water/air interface being involved.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #406, on November 29th, 2016, 04:17 AM »
I'm not sure if I"ve mentioned this paper before:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf

Its very mathematically based, looking at using pure water capacitors for high voltage pulse storage and discharge. It goes into great detail about how these systems work, if the maths isn't of interest, the explanations are very useful in understanding how water capacitors work.
The last section of the paper is particularly relevant to stans system, where there is great deal of discussion about charge transfer across the water capacitor. The research is for quite high voltage system in the region of kilovolts, but much of the information should be useful for lower voltages in stans range. There are also numerous examples in the calculations, including concentric tube setups, basically identical to stans tubes ( dimensions, gap spacing etc differ).
It goes into great detail about relaxation times of water ( time charge is held for).
It mentions electrical wavefronts eminating from each electrode, and goes into alot of mathematical modelling for calculating various aspects of the charge transfer process, and how its influenced by the electric field.
My intention is to go over the paper in detail and post relevant information I can get from it.
Another thing of interest is they use the deflection of laser light through the water to determine various aspects of the effects of the electric field on the pure water.
This paper should be particularly relevant for stans injector as the high voltage he uses and 0.01" water gap might be close to breakdown voltage of the water, which is largely what the authors were interested in.

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #407, on December 2nd, 2016, 02:29 AM »
still going over last paper mentioned, will post relevant info when ready,
just a link to a paper that shows how dielectric constant of pure water is measured, quite interesting as it used basically a coaxial structure with water as the dielectric medium, which is then pulsed ( very similar to what stan was doing with his tubes), hence its relevance.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a328788.pdf
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #408, on December 2nd, 2016, 03:23 AM »
a recent study ( 2016) showing water splitting using extreme narrow gap between electrodes, the electric field of the metal/water interfaces is high enough to split the water, basically they have taken away the bulk water, that doesn't play a role in the water splitting, they are manipulating the debye length.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1611/1611.04677.pdf
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #409, on December 6th, 2016, 04:31 AM »
another relevant paper for stans systems is here
http://journals.aps.org/prab/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevSTAB.12.113501
It uses water in a high voltage coaxial type setup, its a bit diferrent to stans concentric tubes but shows how the voltage pulse wave traverses the water, and they mention the TEM part of the EM wave is influenced by change in the waters inductance over a very short time period ( the wave is reflected )
( figure 5 in particular is of interest showing the change over time of the EM wave)
Another thing that might be useful is they use the water column as a voltage divider, by placing a metal grid in the water column. That allows measurement of the em wave voltage traversing the water column.

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #410, on December 7th, 2016, 05:01 AM »
I mentioned a few posts ago I would go through a highly mathematical paper and try to gain some relevant information from it for understanding stans system, this is the paper I mentioned previously
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf
It will take quite alot of time to go over it in detail, but I think it is worthwhile, so to begin:
the paper studies in depth using very pure water for very short duration energy storage for use in high energy physics experiments ( they can recreate such phenomenon as found in nuclear explosions or other high energy phenomenon, they use the energy to 'hit' a small target, the energy is converted into xrays and other high energy radiation). So obviously there are some very intelligent and experienced researchers working on this, and have been for many years.
The basic concept is very pure water acts as a short term capacitor for storing electrical energy,
the pulse times are extremely small, smaller than that used in stans system, they mention pulse times of less than 100microseconds water behaves in a particular manner , and pulse times longer than 100microseconds another set of water behaviours becomes relevant they state :
"On time scales greater than 100microseconds, injection of space, with density q and mobility mu, affects the charging and discharging circuit characteristics, introduces the time constant for the time of flight of injected charge to migrate between electrodes, and increases the effective ohmic conductivity....a drift dominated conduction model is used to describe measured space charge effects"
So the question becomes is stans system working with a pulse time less or greater than 100microseconds?  Should the gate pulse duration be used or the high frequency signal be used to determine this? If you use the gate pulse times ( on/off times) the frequencies seem to be higher than 100microseconds, using the high frequency pulse ( during on time) the pulse duration is lower than 100microseconds.
So how to decide if space charge injection plays a major role in stans system or is it not worth considering at all?
If none of this makes any sense, space charge injection is talking about the  time it takes for charge to transfer across the water cell, or you could say the velocity of the charge transfer across the cell. I'm still trying to figure out what is the resonance within the cell that stan refers to ( not the resonance of the coils with the water as capacitor).
Whatever is the answer to the above questions, this paper certainly goes into great detail about water as a capacitor with or without space charge effects. I shall continue slowly going over the paper to see what is has to reveal.


Re: research information sharing
« Reply #411, on December 7th, 2016, 05:55 AM »
The next part of the introduction to the paper they mention:  significant space charge effects after a few hundred microseconds after a high voltage pulse is applied to the water capacitor are seen ( using a visual technique in which light is distorted due to the electric field across the water).
Of particular interest they say
" the injected charge magnitude and sign depends on the electrode material", it is discussed in more detail in later part of the paper. But as example they tested stainless steel electrodes and found that the space charge transfer was positive in nature. I believe this means that hydrogen ion transfer from cathode is primary transfer method of charge within the water.

I was just searching for some kerr electrooptic images ( the images in the paper are not clear) and came across this paper, which is not directly relevant but has some interesting info
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261567194_Nonelectrode_and_Postbreakdown_Ionization_Processes_in_Water
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #412, on December 10th, 2016, 05:04 AM »
water capacitor pulse network high power notes ( continued)
info from research paper:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf:

normal pulse machines: 1 microsecond charge time
they use "nominally" pure water
resistivity ( greek symbol: row ) = 2.5megaohmns
dielectric relaxation time ( greek symbol: torr ) = 15microseconds

slower charging pulse machines:
2-100 microseconds charge time
slower charge time requires more pure water to allow charging times
longer than 15microseconds ( longer relaxation time?)
Voltage increase is done by inductor or transformer! like stans

new class of very slow charge time ( over milliseconds), require
extremely pure water ( and glycol mix)
so the purer the water the longer the relaxation time?

The machine this study refers to acts as follows:
60hz ac converted to high voltage dc
marx generator capacitors charge rate is 40kw per 100sec
water dielectric intermediate capacitor charged in a few microseconds
water pulse forming network shapes the output pulse down to 40ns
( 40ns: relaxtion time of water, different to the dielectric relax time)
30terrawatts delivered to reaction chamber ( target )

Due to the extreme high currents ( megaamperes) for short duration, output line impedance
in order of 1 ohmn is required which water pfl is suitable.

Stans system: is pulse forming network ( PFN ) using water as dielectric with voltage
increased by inductors. These type of water capacitor PFN were used with
radar systems, so some possibility Stan had some knowledge of these
systems.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #413, on December 12th, 2016, 03:41 AM »
I came across this google book by stanley meyer compilation of memos etc,

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=G-eJCgAAQBAJ&pg=RA2-PA3&lpg=RA2-PA3&dq=pfn+water+capacitor+resonant+charge&source=bl&ots=ofLxb_Zpgn&sig=N2OPU8GdR19vrSakelKyL4niOx4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjl0pX5w-7QAhXDro8KHcprC_wQ6AEIUTAG#v=onepage&q&f=false

not sure if any of the information is new for folks on this forum, but might be worth a look at.
below is example of one bit of info I dont remember seeing before relating to the injector as a waveguide  (page 34), pretty sure this info already published though.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #415, on December 13th, 2016, 11:48 PM »Last edited on December 13th, 2016, 11:51 PM
I'll refer to the article in future by its title
Dielectric Properties of Water and Water/Ethylene Glycol mixtures for use in Pulse Power
System Design by M, Zahn et al Vol 79 no.9 september 1986
new link
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e7f/578375d821d764c66af516f75f2d5f46244f.pdf

Just a note on water capacitors used in high energy research, it seems that a water capacitor can store charge up until the breakdown voltage is reached, the amount of energy that can be stored in , say, one of stans tubes, would be very large, stan was not using voltage approaching the breakdown voltage in his tube style system, so he was splitting water at power levels well below the theoretical energy storage capacity of his water capacitor.

One difference with pulse power networks using water capacitors is that they are intended to be a temporary storage of energy which is then released/transferred to a matched load ( eventually to a target). In stans system the energy is released by self dishcharge of the energy stored in the water capacitor, exactly how this self discharge works to split water I am not sure, but my guess is that since the capacitor energy is released in a exponential manner over time, the very first initial release of energy ( in the from of current)  may create extremely high currents, which might be able to be determine from the oscilliscope discharge graphs ( the discharge portion of the step charging process).
Its possible these high currents over short time frame are creating a standard electrolysis process rather than the pulsing being related to some resonant frequency of the water molecules which stan believed was the splitting process.
I am only speculating here.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #416, on December 14th, 2016, 02:20 AM »
there are two different relaxation times referred to regarding water,

1. one is called the debye relaxtion time, ( symbol is torr with a small d below), its in the order of nanoseconds ( less than 1 ns for water), and its the time for a water molecule to reorient the poles in a changing electric field.

2.The other relaxation time in water is on the time scale of 10's to hundreds of microseconds, in the paper they call this the dielectric relaxation time or the " circuit RC constant relaxation time" which " equals the dielectric relaxation time" and its " independent of the electrode geometry and the applied voltage". Its symbol is also torr  and is equal to epsilon ( dielectric constant)/ mu permiability constant), permiability constant is I think something to do with ionic permiability ( movement time).
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #417, on December 14th, 2016, 03:38 AM »
Notes continued from:

Dielectric Properties of Water and Water/Ethylene Glycol mixtures for use in Pulse Power
System Design by M, Zahn et al Vol 79 no.9 september 1986
new link
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e7f/578375d821d764c66af516f75f2d5f46244f.pdf

previous url address was:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf:

symbols used in coaxial cables and in this paper can be seen here:
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/coax.htm
you'll need to know what the symbols mean in order to understand this paper.

Page 1186, starts analysis of a water capacitor in the from of a coaxial line,
stans capacitor can be viewed as a coaxial line with water being the dielectric
between two metal conductors. So the information in this section should
be beneficial to understanding stans tubes. I would think it would be a necessity
to have some understanding of this in order to understand stans system.

The results of this section will apply to any transmission line form used in a
pulse forming network, they mention other types: stripline, triax, triplate
and coax. Fortunately the detailed maths they discuss is for coaxial line
which matches stans tubes ( or injector), though it does open the possibility
that other transmission line geometries might also be useable, I'm not familiar
with those other geometries ( stripline/triax/triplate), though triplate might
well be the form used by stephen meyer in his patent .

Just another thought: is stan using an external resistor as a load, its value
being such that the energy released is reflected back into the water capacitor?

Stans system as far as I can tell is not trying to maximise the amount of energy
that can be stored in the water capacitor but rather he is trying to maximise
efficiency of the conversion process.


For a coaxial line the maximum electric field strength is at the inner electrode.
( noted in the paper)

There are numerous formulas given that relate to stans tubes as a coaxial
transmission line and water capacitor.
Many of the formulas given should be useable, for example, equation 2.3 ( page 1186),
gives calculation of the line length ( tube length) for a given pulse time.
In the formula they use the round trip time, so the answer ( if you use the
formula 2.3) is divided by 2, take out that '2' from the formula!

So for a 1 microsecond charge time, the line length would be 16.8 metres, this is given
result shown in this research paper for water. So for a given charge time there is an ideal
length that I'm guessing maximises the efficiency of charging time. You could regard this
as one type or from  of resonance.

( just another thought: is it possible stan uses the tubes in series in order to increase the
total length of the tubes? so although there is 9 lots of 12cm tubes ( approx), in series they
act like a long single tube and make it possible to match the pulse time with the ideal length
of the equivalent coaxial cable or at least to get some harmonic length of the resonant length?)

So lets put some numbers into the equation ( sorry I cant cut/paste the formula or use the
symbols etc), I'll try work out a way to do that later.

The time for the electrical wave to travel along the conductors ( arranged in coax geometry as
in stans tubes) for a one way trip  (from one end of the tube to the other?) is:

time = sqrt ( epsilon * mu )

for round trip ( I'm not sure if this means reflected at the end of tubes/coax, or if it means
wave goes along the positive conductor then comes back down the negative conductor?)

time = 2 * sqrt ( epsilon * mu )

which gives equation 2.3 which is:

length = 1/2 * time / ( sqrt ( epsilon * mu ) ( equation 2.3)

which simplifies to:

length = 16770510 * time  ( I've substituted epsilon = 80 )( answer in metres)

So it turns out thats a pretty simple formula to find the resonant length of stans tubes
for a given pulse time)
lets say the pulse on time ( charge time of the water capacitor) is 1 microsecond then
put 0.000001 seconds into the formula
length = 16770510 * 0.000001 = 16.8metres ( rounding off)
lets put in 10 microseconds we get 168metres
lets put in 0.1microseconds we get 1.68metres

lets say stan was using a charge time of 0.1microseconds or a resonant length of 1.68 metres,
lets divide that by 9 tubes in series and we get 0.19metres for resonant length.

Lets work backwards, lets say tube length of 12cm ( 0.12m), and 9 tubes in series gives
total length of 1.08metres for resonant length ( not including wires between tubes)
rearranging equation 2.3 for time gives:

time = length / 16770510

time = 1.08 / 16770510 =0.064 microseconds or 64nanoseconds

That seems like a very short pulse time, rather than using the charge time, since its step charging
in stans system, lets say this represents the pulse on time. Thats assuming the tubes in series you can
add them as one long coax cable.
Since this time is too short for stans frequencies, I would think that the tube length is something like
a 1/2 wave or 1/4 wave or 1/8 or 1/16 harmonic length. I've used a value of 80 for permittivity I think stan
used 79 but it wont make much difference to the answer.

Lets try with epsilon = 79
formula 2.3 becomes:
length = 16876319 * time

lets say 10khz pulse time is used, then on time is reciprocal which is 100microseconds ( 0.0001sec) ( assuming
the freq reciprocal represents the on time?)
using formula above harmonic length is :
l = 16876319 * 0.0001 = 1687m or 1.687km  yikes!
no resonance there, even using the 9 cells in series as a long coax its still nowhere in the ball park!
I previously did some calculations ( using alternate method) gave some similar results but seems confirmed
using different method using formula in this research paper.

So perhaps the efficiency of matching the tube length to the pulse time is not particularly important in stan
system? In the injector being much shorter than the tubes matching the voltage zone as a coax cable arrangement
also seems not relevant.......seems that way to me?

Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #418, on December 14th, 2016, 05:38 AM »
Some good research there.

I have a feeling all of that information could be used to optimize a water fuel cell, but knowing a plate cell can also work, leads me to believe the dielectric relaxation time is the more relevant tuning factor.

Sure would be nice to get one of these things working (if even by accident) so we could analyze the critical components.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #419, on December 15th, 2016, 12:40 AM »
I was just reading over some info by puharich on this page:
http://www.svpvril.com/Cosmology/addendum13.html
He described his discovery of acoustic effect involved with water electrolysis
as below
"The importance of the phonon effect --- the acoustic vibration of water in electrolysis --- was discovered in a roundabout way. Research work with Component I [ precedent circuit stan has developed] had earlier established that it could be used for the electro-stimulation of hearing in humans. When the output of Component I is comprised of flat circular metal plates applied to the head of normal hearing humans, it was found that they could hear pure tones and speech. Simultaneously, acoustic vibration could also be heard by an outside observer with a stethoscope placed near one of the electrodes on the skin. It was observed that the absolute threshold of hearing could be obtained at 0.16 mW (rms), and by calculation that there was an amplitude of displacement of the eardrum of the order of 10-11 and a corresponding amplitude of the cochlear basilar membrane of 10-13 meter. Corollary to this finding. I was able to achieve the absolute reversible threshold of electrolysis at a power level of 0.16 mW (rms). By carrying out new calculations I was able to show that the water was being vibrated with a displacement of the order of 1 Angstrom ( = 10-10 meters). This displacement is of the order of the diameter of the hydrogen atom."

I have not paid much attention to puharichs' work, but since he precedes stans work, whether or not stan used puharichs' work as basis for his work or not, I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent and study puharichs' theory for some time. He certainly clearly states he has discovered an acoustic component to this system, although I've been trying to find out any evidence for acoustic effect without success, I think its worth going into detail of puharich theory before I continue the maths based paper.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #420,  »
after viewing some videos of Puharich on youtube relating to water splitting and a some other reserach, firstly it seems he is an accomplished researcher, but unfortunately he also has spent a good deal of time studying Uri Geller and other "supernatural" phenomenon and publishing on such dubious persons.
This  ( for me ) undermines his reputation immediately, it gives me a bias against his research,
but it doesn't deter me from reading more on his water splitting device. There does seem to be
a lack of any practical evidence of his work, though his son has created a website devoted to his fathers work, it might be worth me contacting his son to see if he can provide any further details.
Puharich in his videos certainly wants to convey the impression of a person who is in the upper echolons of society, and well connected, even giving information on his knowledge of the whereabouts of information stolen from Tesla after his death.
He gives a some convincing theoretical information on his water splitting device in some videos, but there certainly seems to be no evidence of practical experiments apart from his own descriptions of experiments.
I think it is worthwhile to study his patent in depth, and to try add to that some small bits of information from his videos, but there are others who have already done that, as to be found on other forums.
Certainly the electrohydrodynamic effect (  i.e. sound waves being produced by oscillating
voltage fields between elecrodes) will be of interest, particularly since he refers to this as being a discovery of his, and also he states it plays a role in the water splitting process.
He seems to be suggesting a complex waveform is required, which is a product of
the combination of the low and high frequency pulses similar to what is being used by those
trying to replicate stans system.
It would be quite hard to imagine that stan had independently developed the identical circuit to Puharich. Why would stan not give credit to Puharich? One can only guess the reasons for that. As with all science, each person builds on the work of others before them, not giving credit to the predecessors work is probably related to ego. I guess we will never know if stan and his brother were expanding on Puharichs' work, unless Stephen Meyer decides to assist publicly on this.
Stephen Meyer could save many  people alot of time and frustration by publishing his knowledge on stans system. I would think that he is probably getting into his older years by now, and maybe at some stage he might decide to honour his brothers legacy, whats the point in being on this earth, and leaving it with so much knowledge that will be lost forever?
If by chance Stephen Meyer should happen to read this post, I would encourage him to consider releasing or at least compiling everything he knows about this water spitting process
and making it public.
There is obviously a huge interest in it, and massive positive outcomes for humanity.
Such information as to whether stan ever got the injector working etc etc would be more than
a little bit useful.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #421,  »
Notes continued from:

Dielectric Properties of Water and Water/Ethylene Glycol mixtures for use in Pulse Power
System Design by M, Zahn et al Vol 79 no.9 september 1986
new link
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e7f/578375d821d764c66af516f75f2d5f46244f.pdf

previous url address was:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf:

this paper identified two different time constants for water:
1. debye relaxation time which is  around one nanosecond or so for water, the time for water molecule to react/reorient to an electric field........too short a time scale for stans system
2. The circuit RC constant relaxation time: this 'constant' is of particular interest for stans systems since it is on the order of hundreds of microseconds.
They say in this paper for pure water this constant is 128 microseconds at 20degC, and increases to 670microseconds at zero degC.
But what is this number representing, what property of water does it give information on?

At first I thought it might be related to the series resonant frequency of a capacitor/inductor in series, where water is the capacitor.
That is the resonant frequency so much discussed when trying to match inductors L1 and L2 in stans circuit.
 But the formula for this constant ( given the symbol torr) is epsilon/row.......(.dielectric constant/ (conductivity)........stan used a value for epsilon of 79 ( though 80 is also used)
So this constant is independent of any external inductors in a circuit connected to the water,
its an intrinsic value within the water itself. In this paper they say  its " independent of the electrode geometry and applied voltage".
As far as I can tell stan was interested in two different resonances:
1. the LC circuit resonance
2. another resonance related to the movement of electrons across the water or the movement
of water molecules.
But the dielectric relaxation constant referred to in the paper seems to be neither of those,
you can certainly rule out the LC circuit resonance of Stan.
There is, I guess, some possibility it is related to the second resonance of stan, I've read some of stans patents that refer to this second type of resonance that has to be considered.
For example this patent of his titled " Gas Generator Voltage Control Circuit"
https://www.google.com/patents/US4798661
Has a section called 'theoretical analysis", and there are a couple of paragraphs before that section that also discuss this other resonance. For me personally its not clear exactly what he is trying to describe. He is definitely saying there is a wavelength which matches the distance between the plates, and he is also relating this to either the movement of water molecules or the movement of electrons. It is quite difficult to understand the process he is trying to describe.
I'm only guessing here but this other resonance of stans might be related to the  rc dielectric relaxation constant in the research paper i'm discussing. My understanding of permeability and permittivity ( dielectric) of water are extremely limited, but it seems they might be important to try and understand this other from of resonance.









Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #422,  »
The more I study Stan's systems and take into account the other research you have unveiled, I see something interesting about the phase relationships.  It looks to me like DC bias and resonance is used as a baseline to position the water molecules into a known orientation.  From there it appears the phase angle is adjusted continuously to put stress on the water molecules.  This phase angle adjustment also counters the wave action, so in effect it matches the impedance.  With a matched impedance, current flow is precisely controlled.  This is where electrons are moved around in the correct proportions creating the condition in the water where the molecules grab onto these free electrons and release from their covalent molecular bonds.

That's kind of vague/brief summary of what I see going on.  It's probably no more descriptive than what you have read already.  Hopefully it highlights some of the active mechanisms happening at the atomic level as well as the electric symptoms we use to tune and get the process started.  The hard part for me in all this is I need to see the whole process mechanically, but we find ourselves crossing so many lines of discipline that it all gets very confusing.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #423,  »
thanks for that Matt, I've read over your description, but I'm having a hard time to understand it.
It is quite a grey area for me exactly what this second form of resonance is.
The LC resonance is clear and easily understood, the other resonance condition stan refers to it in various ways which is difficult to decipher what he is referring to.
There a few different things can be looked at:
1.the alignment of water molecules to the electric field is extremely quick, in the order of 1 nanosecond, probably close to the speed of the electric wave propogation. Cant be bothered doing any maths at the moment on that, but it seems too short a time scale to match stans khz frequencies.
2. There is the movement of pos and neg water ions across the gap, positive being H30 ions
( can call them just H+ ions but they quickly convert to the H30 pos ion form apparently), and negative ions being OH- ions. In solutions electrons dont transfer as they do in metal, its the ions that transfer electrical energy. Pure water still has ions in it, from self generation by the water itself, anything non-pure will have lots of different types of  ions .
The mechanism by which the h+ and oh- ions transfer charge across the water is not straight forward either. For example the h+ ions dont actually move simply physically across the water, but they transfer charge to other h+ ions via water molecules combined with some movement. Anyhow it seems there are mobility speeds can be measured for these charge carriers, so thats another possibility to examine. I started doing some research on the hydronium ion transfer ( since between stainless steel electrodes it appears to be the dominate method of charge transfer, though 0h- transfer can occur at the same time ( in
opposite direction). The reason to do some basic maths on ion transfer times is to see if it matches the frequencies used by stan, I haven't completed that work yet, its not complicated maths involved.
3. direct electron transfer across water can occur but occurs during high voltage breakdown of water, and the opposite effect of what stan was trying to achieve. He wants to minimise electrical transfer, which isn't done by electron movement across the water, but by charge carriers.

I had a bit of an idea for an experiment:
Lets say you have an ordinary style electrolyser, two metal plates with water inbetween, now add a thin sheet of glass in the middle, so that you still have water/metal interface, but inbetween the water is broken into two separate regions, one side in contact with the positive metal electrode, and the other side the water is in contact with neg electrode.
( picture of the idea below)
What effect will this have on the system?
The glass is  a dielectric, similar to water, but the charge carriers in the water can only travel to the glass/water interface not right across from one electrode to the other.
Will the breakdown of water still occur, as it the glass were not present?
Or will there be some other effect occur ( eg gas also produced on the water/glass interface?).
Would it provide a means to separate hydrogen and oxygen gas?
Will the electric field be effected, will the resistance between the electrodes do to infinity?
I have no idea what the answers are, it might just be an interesting experiment to try.


Re: research information sharing
« Reply #424,  »
just a thought:
the debye relaxation time in liquid water ( time for water molecules to reorientate back to normal
state after an electric field is turned off) is on the order of nanoseconds.
But for ice where the water molecules are more rigid the debye relaxation time is much longer, and corresponds to frequences in the khz range.
Since there is a layer of aligned water molecules right next to the metal electrodes, and they form a rigid ice-like structure ( the bilayer), is it possible stans khz frequencies are tuning into the debye relaxation time of the bilayer water molecules?
It appears to me that the area of interest where the water is being broken into h and o gas, is possibly a very thin layer of water molecules in close contact to the metal electrodes ( on the order of nanometres in width), and if those water molecules have a much longer debye relaxation frequency ( such as found in ice), in would certainly match the frequencies stan was using.
.....just a thought.