Quote from TinMan on October 21st, 2012, 06:45 AM

Hi Guys
Man have i missed some stuff here.Been flat out with the pulse motor build of-along with Russ.
Anyway i have some questions-or a question
Why are people so intent on reduceing the cell temp?
First up,the hotter the water,the less amp's it takes to disasociate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.
The reason you see an amp draw gain as the water gets hotter is because the higher the temp of the water-the better it conducts current.
So why not reduce the electrolite or remove it altogether,and lift the temp of the water?
The other thing is-why are people concerned with steam passing through into the engine with the HHO.
Steam is a good thing when running on HHO-it reduces pinging and the timeing dosnt have to be retarded as much.
It also increases the burn time of the HHO.

On another note-why dose everyone insist on useing DC ? why not use AC insted
It makes more sence to me to rock the voltage back and forth within the cell,rather than trying to push it in one direction.

Now that the pulse motor build off is near finished,i will be returning back to work on my motor generator setup.
I have an idea for an AC duel phase water capacitor that would also produce HHO.
The way this setup works,it wouldnt draw any more current or power from the prime mover that is driveing the generator.

I will keep you guys up to speed on how this turns out,and if its a win-then we can go from there.
If it's a dud,then we have learnt how not to do it lol.

  Cheers guys

Hi Tinman

Glad you are liking my own little build-off - electronics never was my speciality but mechanics and electrical engineering were so I decided to go for the car instead.  :)

The current challenge with heating is that the way I was doing it initially was already pulling 400+ Amps on 300 Amp rated cables so the hotter the cell got the more current it drew and so the hotter everything else became as well.

So I've had to opt to up the voltage to get the current draw down to something much more realistic so on the next setup it heating up may be a benefit as you say and I agree steam in there as well will be all beneficial; in fact we were discussing earlier about using a kettle or something like that to then introduce steam into the equation as well as some non-combustible exhaust gasses.

I'm using DC as Tom over at Punch HHO where I got the cells says in his information:

http://www.punchhho.com/about.php

Regardless of how you decide to drive your cell, you will obviously require DC voltage! Do not attempt to apply AC voltage to the cell, the results will be catastrophic.

So I'll ask him what happens if you put A/C across the cell...

Further on he also mentions it is important to iron out any A/C ripple from the supply as well:

Power supply filtering:

In rectified DC, you have what is called AC ripple. In fact using a full wave bridge rectifier you will see up to 45% AC ripple. AC ripple does us NO GOOD! AC ripple is just wasted energy that dissipates in the cell as heat energy. You can cut down on the amount of AC ripple by filtering in one of two ways. You can use a choke or more commonly an electrolytic capacitor. The purer your DC is, the higher your efficiency will be! Keep in mind, if you do decide to filter your output with a capacitor, you will increase your DC voltage by approximately 15%. So, if you are using the cell without a controller and just want to rectify your AC line voltage from your house, you would start with 120v and end up with about 138 volts! That's 2.5 volts per plate!

Good luck with your pulse motor and I look forward to seeing the finished one...

All the very best

ethospete...

Quote from symanuk on October 21st, 2012, 03:25 AM

Thanks for reposting this Ethos, it made me see something I hadn't paid attention to before, Stan is not using HHO in his injector nozzle. He has a hydrogen inlet, then an air, then at the front the oxygen.  Makes it far easier to meter each individual flow and thereby the burn mix rate.  Strikes me that a HHO split cell and some simple nozzle engineering could replicate the principle on a small scale.  Also fits with the KISS method, measure and adjust each flow independently to achieve a specific output in real time.  To all those people who already saw this as blindingly obvious, my apologies. Sometimes takes a while for things to fall in place for me!

My pleasure symanuk and I agree it is very easy to miss things... Glad it was useful.

I also agree with KISS but my latest version is less derogatory:

Keep It Slick & Simple :)

Yes, some sort of a mixing system would be prefect to mix HHO, ambient air, steam and exhaust gases to get the optimal Stoichiometry Thermal Efficiency (STE) from the mixture.  

Don't worry if you've not heard of 'STE' before... I just made it up as I think that is what I was referring to...  :)

All the best

ethospete...

Quote from TinMan on October 21st, 2012, 06:45 AM

Steam is a good thing when running on HHO-it reduces pinging and the timeing dosnt have to be retarded as much.

On this one, I've yet to confirm it, but everything suggests that you need to start at Top Dead Centre (TDC) and then advance it rather than retard it so it fires AFTER TDC not before TDC. HHO is the opposite to normal fuels as it ignites instantly.

Got to add an ignition timing light to the shopping list... :)

Pingging or pinking is caused when the timing is too far retarded and so it is firing before the piston has reached the top of its stroke and so it is trying to push the piston back down again as it is still going up. You usually notice this under a heavy load and especially going up hills at lower revs. Also a too low octane grade of fuel can sometimes cause it as well. On a normal car, advance the ignition timing a couple of degrees and slightly richen the mixture if it is adjustable and it will then stop pinking. If we're running after TDC pinking should never happen with HHO as it's always firing after TDC and not before.

At the moment on the test car the distributor is slightly loose and I've just guessed it by ear from where it was set originally while it was still running on its LPG and from the first firing up with the HHO it sounded like I've guessed it about right... and no backfires or misfires so far which was better than I was anticipating after seeing other videos so maybe I have it pretty close to start with.... Once it's running on it's own I'll then be able to tune it by ear to where it likes to run best and then see where that ends up on the timing wheel pulley scale.

All the best

ethospete...
Abstract: The thermal efficiency of the ideal Joule cycle operating on a perfect gas is only a
function of pressure ratio and the isentropic exponent of the gas. When component
efficiencies are lower than 100%, then thermal efficiency becomes also a function of burner
exit temperature. Calculations for a perfect gas yield that the achievable thermal efficiency
increases monotonously with burner temperature  in such a way that the optimum pressure
ratio is dependent on the efficiency level and the burner temperature. The higher the burner
temperature is the higher is also the optimum pressure ratio. However, in the real world air
and combustion gases are not perfect gases and quite obviously the stoichiometric fuel-air ratio
limits the achievable burner temperature. One might now assume that the maximum
thermal efficiency is achieved at or near to the stoichiometric fuel-air-ratio, however,
this is not the case.  

Full paper: http://mtu-rzeszow.com/en/technologies/engineering_news/development/Kurzke_Achieving_maximum_thermal_efficiency_en.pdf
Hydrogen Powered Tubro Jet Engine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPfLQmsth-4
Such a small engine and such clean power...


New Valveless Pulsejet Engine System

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEHw9lInIfg
If this one's running on Propane could we build an HHO one...?

Quote from ethospete on October 22nd, 2012, 04:17 AM

[If this one's running on Propane could we build an HHO one...?

That's not new, its the old V1 'Doodlebug' with which the Germans bombed England...

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 22nd, 2012, 09:19 AM

Quote from ethospete on October 22nd, 2012, 04:17 AM

New Valveless Pulsejet Engine System

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEHw9lInIfg
If this one's running on Propane could we build an HHO one...?

That's not new, its the old V1 'Doodlebug' with which the Germans bombed England...

New or old, would it run on HHO gas...?

Cheers, ep

Quote from ethospete on October 22nd, 2012, 09:57 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 22nd, 2012, 09:19 AM

Quote from ethospete on October 22nd, 2012, 04:17 AM

That's not new, its the old V1 'Doodlebug' with which the Germans bombed England...

New or old, would it run on HHO gas...?

Cheers, ep

Sure, i guess it would, but you need a whole lot of HHO

hi pete!!! I was thinking if u can modify the existing LPG regulator to premix the exhaust gases with HHO and take it to intake using existing LPG regulator plus i think there will be no more flashbacks because now the mixed gases would have low burn rates to flashback quickly into the regulator.
Regards
waqas

Hi ethospete
When you retard the timeing , that means if fires after top dead center
When you advance the timeing- that means it fires befor top dead center
As I stated above- if you inject steam with HHO- you don't have to retard the timing so much-it can be advanced closer to TDC
Also on the ac side of things, I have been using ac with great success for a while now. But it dose require a different cell configuration-
I made a cell designed spacificly for ac, and for watts used compared to dc- it kills any dc cell
Infect I believe my new cell can be run on a generator without drawing any extra load from the motor
The reason for this is because of the capacitor effect in the cell you get when using ac- so most of the current can be sent back to the generator windings

This is defently a great topic you have going here

Quote from ethospete on October 22nd, 2012, 01:27 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 21st, 2012, 04:17 AM

Like a plexi glass canon...say 1 meter long and with measure stripes on it.

Yes, this has always been one of my favourite HHO videos too:  :)

MARCHLABS M13 HHO ROCKET LAUNCHER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSXcV-r1Ifs
300,000V Ignition system, 532 Nm green laser targeting system

This is an amazing demonstration of the amount of energy produced from a relatively small amount of HHO gas.

And it also highlights why safety must always be of paramount importance when working with HHO gas.

Maybe Russ can put one together for testing purposes...  ;)

Enjoy!  :D

ethospete...

Let
Me
At
It!

Grate stuff I can hardly keep up! ;)))

I'm overwhelmed here! Lol ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on October 23rd, 2012, 12:51 AM

Quote from ethospete on October 22nd, 2012, 01:27 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 21st, 2012, 04:17 AM

Like a plexi glass canon...say 1 meter long and with measure stripes on it.

Yes, this has always been one of my favourite HHO videos too:  :)

MARCHLABS M13 HHO ROCKET LAUNCHER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSXcV-r1Ifs
300,000V Ignition system, 532 Nm green laser targeting system

This is an amazing demonstration of the amount of energy produced from a relatively small amount of HHO gas.

And it also highlights why safety must always be of paramount importance when working with HHO gas.

Maybe Russ can put one together for testing purposes...  ;)

Enjoy!  :D

ethospete...

Let
Me
At
It!

Grate stuff I can hardly keep up! ;)))

I'm overwhelmed here! Lol ~Russ

Thats a great thing :)
Thanks to pete that he hit your OVERWHELMING button :D
waqas

Hi All!!! let me tell u guys that i am from Pakistan,
 and some of you might know about a guy named AGHA WAQAR  over here claimed to have run a car on water.
He was in the news for about two weeks with demonstration all over the country.

He was able to run a car only for 25mins but down the street for full throttle like around 3500rpm.

I have seen his setup, it was totally brute force, no electronics involved.
the difference was that he was using a tyre tube as a buffer to first store some amount of HHO , ran it through the air intake to let engine vacuum suck the HHO on demand while refilling the tube with his HHO cell during the drive.
as the buffer was a rubber tube it can handle the pressure as well.
His cell was around 4 MMW, which is not good.
so i was thinking that if his setup is reproduced with a better MMW cell, and some exhaust gases mixing can make it very much successful.
Regards
waqas

Quote

Thats a great thing Smile
Thanks to pete that he hit your OVERWHELMING button Big Grin
waqas

lol well i was referring to life in general! lol :)))

~Russ

ep,
If you can get rid of that inverter, by all means, do it.  They only run at about 85% efficiency anyway, so you're wasting a ton of wattage just going from AC to DC.  I wasn't sure if Punch was rectifying AC to DC or if the cell was actually AC, but it looks like everything on the cell side is DC, which is great.  Also, if you have the "home" unit, the AC to DC variable controller should be limiting the current draw, right?  Are you using that variable controller?  Now if you lose the inverter and AC to DC variable controller, you're on your own, but maybe you could rig up a current regulator based on throttle position to limit current based on demand?

I'm sure you know this, but DC is much more dangerous than AC, anything over 48 vdc can be dangerous, so be careful if you start hooking up batteries in series.

Four things Pete:

1.  Set timing to AFTER TDC
2.  Add cold water mist to air stream
3.  Use a plasma jet ignition system
4.  Be surprised when you discover an internal combustion engine uses less LpM of HHO than you think.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U

The attached chapter has a whole bunch of stuff on running generators with HHO--not just fancy pulsed cells but brute force as well.

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on October 23rd, 2012, 12:51 AM

Let
Me
At
It!

Grate stuff I can hardly keep up! ;)))

I'm overwhelmed here! Lol ~Russ

I had a funny feeling that you were going to love this one too...  :)

Hopefully it shouldn't be to hard to replicate compared to all the other replications currently going on...

I'm sure it will be a whole lot more fun as well.  Knowing you,  you'll probably think up some of your own improvements as well.

I'm looking forward to to seeing this one in action... As always, work hard, play even harder... and stay safe!

All the best

ethospete...

Quote from Badger on October 23rd, 2012, 08:24 AM

ep,
If you can get rid of that inverter, by all means, do it.  They only run at about 85% efficiency anyway, so you're wasting a ton of wattage just going from AC to DC.  I wasn't sure if Punch was rectifying AC to DC or if the cell was actually AC, but it looks like everything on the cell side is DC, which is great.  Also, if you have the "home" unit, the AC to DC variable controller should be limiting the current draw, right?  Are you using that variable controller?  Now if you lose the inverter and AC to DC variable controller, you're on your own, but maybe you could rig up a current regulator based on throttle position to limit current based on demand?

I'm sure you know this, but DC is much more dangerous than AC, anything over 48 vdc can be dangerous, so be careful if you start hooking up batteries in series.

Hi Badger

Many thanks for the useful feedback and information. Yes, the inverter was my first idea to get the home cell running in the car but, as you rightly say, we're pulling far too much current and also wasting lots in the inverter as well so it's got to go. Punch are very kindly building me a new controller for 220V A/C to D/C to power the two cells connected together in series. That should effectively double the output and greatly reduce the current draw and then give us a good constant supply of gas for continuing the testing.

If/when we've got everything running nicely from the mains supply we'll then work on a new battery bank to power it so it is then mobile and will then also need two new 110V A/C controllers; one controller to control each cell.  

Punch confirmed that they received the wire transfer yesterday and are now building the first new controller so hopefully it will be ready so that they can get the order shipped out soon.

I also found this which looks very interesting... but unfortunately not enough power for this application:

Convert Hydrogen into Electricity... Supplies 12V, 110V and 230V at 150W... Supplies 20 hours of continuous output at maximum load and longer on lower loads.

/watch?v=ff7hEvfNW0o

I've also just ordered up one of these neat little gadgets to have a play with:

Recharge your mobile phone or get emergency torch lighting from this hand-held mini hydrogen fuel cell...

/watch?v=nyNc-97ZFhM

And here's the charger for it - just fill it up with water and plug it in the mains supply and it refills the cartridges with hydrogen:

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store_euro/hydrofillpro.htm

They also do a mini water-powered kit car for just €107.19 + Shipping which also looks pretty neat:

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store_euro/hracer20.htm

Thanks also for the warning about D/C and I will be extremely careful connecting the 10 batteries in series and will have to buy a large heavy duty breaker system for the main supply line.

All the very best

ep...

Quote from TinMan on October 22nd, 2012, 10:10 PM

Hi ethospete
When you retard the timeing , that means if fires after top dead center
When you advance the timeing- that means it fires befor top dead center
As I stated above- if you inject steam with HHO- you don't have to retard the timing so much-it can be advanced closer to TDC
Also on the ac side of things, I have been using ac with great success for a while now. But it dose require a different cell configuration-
I made a cell designed spacificly for ac, and for watts used compared to dc- it kills any dc cell
Infect I believe my new cell can be run on a generator without drawing any extra load from the motor
The reason for this is because of the capacitor effect in the cell you get when using ac- so most of the current can be sent back to the generator windings

This is defently a great topic you have going here

Hi TinMan

Apologies for the confusion and what you say is correct.

This was the highest output off the shelf cell that I could find so we're stuck on D/C for now. Good luck with your A/C ones and I look forward to seeing the videos when you've got them done.

We'll try improving it by adding exhaust gases and steam once we've got it up and running and see how we get on with that too.

Many thanks again for the feedback and I'm glad you are enjoying this thread. :)

All the very best

ethospete...

Quote from Dog-One on October 23rd, 2012, 10:47 PM

Three things Pete:

1.  Set timing to AFTER TDC
2.  Add water mist to air stream
3.  Be surprised when you discover an internal combustion engine uses less LpM of HHO than you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U

The attached chapter has a whole bunch of stuff on running generators with HHO--not just fancy pulsed cells but brute force as well.

Many thanks Dog-One for those wise words and the attachment. I'm really looking forward to the next phase once the new cell and things arrive.

All the very best

ethospete...

Quote from ethospete on October 25th, 2012, 12:21 PM

Many thanks Dog-One for those wise words and the attachment. I'm really looking forward to the next phase once the new cell and things arrive.

All the very best

You'll get it Pete.

I just paid money for Aaron's "Ignition Secrets" eBook, which wasn't a waste but didn't tell me a whole lot I didn't already know.  The fourth thing you'll want to add to your motor is a plasma jet ignition system which really is nothing more than a high voltage diode strapped across a standard capacitive discharge ignition system.  With this in-place and working, you will no longer have a spark, you'll have a massive plasma ignition fire ball shooting out of your spark plugs which will ionize and ignite water mist with no problem.  A little HHO will get things started and the plasma will do the rest.  I even suspect you'll get a jump on Russ' Popper if you get everything right.  Have a look over here.

Pete still awake?

You could measure your HHO production while waiting for parts?

Grmmbll..your audience needs input!

Hi Dog-one and EZ

Yes, still here... just been playing the waiting game and the latest parts finally shipped out today so hopefully should be here towards the end of next week all being well. :)

Yes, I could have done some measurements in the meantime but the current setup eats batteries for breakfast which is why we are now stepping up the supply voltage and getting rid of the inverter so I thought I'd wait and complete the new setup and then we should be able to test away to my hearts content.

Good idea on the plasma plugs as well and we'll add them to the shopping list for the next phase once we have got it up and running.

I'm looking forward to continuing all the fun and will hopefully have some more news updates soon.

All the very best

ethospete...

Quote from ethospete on November 8th, 2012, 11:22 PM

Good idea on the plasma plugs as well and we'll add them to the shopping list for the next phase once we have got it up and running.

If you get at all hung-up on the plasma spark, PM me and I'll get you whatever details you need.  Aaron has been pretty helpful to me so far.  I plan to start a lawnmower engine modification project in about two weeks or so.  The goal is to get the motor to run on an HHO, water mist, plasma spark.

At the moment I'm pretty heads-down on getting my CNC machine running and building my "Motorvator" mag-grav wheel.  Hopefully have some good results to share in a week or so, provided I don't bust too much equipment along the way.

Quote from Dog-One on November 9th, 2012, 07:52 AM

Quote from ethospete on November 8th, 2012, 11:22 PM

Good idea on the plasma plugs as well and we'll add them to the shopping list for the next phase once we have got it up and running.

If you get at all hung-up on the plasma spark, PM me and I'll get you whatever details you need.  Aaron has been pretty helpful to me so far.  I plan to start a lawnmower engine modification project in about two weeks or so.  The goal is to get the motor to run on an HHO, water mist, plasma spark.

At the moment I'm pretty heads-down on getting my CNC machine running and building my "Motorvator" mag-grav wheel.  Hopefully have some good results to share in a week or so, provided I don't bust too much equipment along the way.

Looking forward to the Motorvator :D
Will you make the wheel in plastics or aluminum or......?

Quote from ethospete on November 8th, 2012, 11:22 PM

Hi Dog-one and EZ

Yes, still here... just been playing the waiting game and the latest parts finally shipped out today so hopefully should be here towards the end of next week all being well. :)

Yes, I could have done some measurements in the meantime but the current setup eats batteries for breakfast which is why we are now stepping up the supply voltage and getting rid of the inverter so I thought I'd wait and complete the new setup and then we should be able to test away to my hearts content.

Good idea on the plasma plugs as well and we'll add them to the shopping list for the next phase once we have got it up and running.

I'm looking forward to continuing all the fun and will hopefully have some more news updates soon.

All the very best

ethospete...

Well, good to see your still on the case, and hoping soon to hear some news. But don't feel you may not react on other threads here before your own project has something of news. Every input has its value ;)

Quote from FaradayEZ on November 15th, 2012, 10:43 AM

Well, good to see your still on the case, and hoping soon to hear some news. But don't feel you may not react on other threads here before your own project has something of news. Every input has its value ;)

Or should i have said: "we miss you here?"

Quote from FaradayEZ on November 17th, 2012, 02:08 AM

Or should i have said: "we miss you here?"

Many thanks for your very kind words...  :)  ...and after many weeks we finally took delivery of the latest shipment from the States. The cooling radiator was unfortunately trashed in transit but thankfully everything else survived so we're going to be running without an additional cooling system and see how we get on.

After spending the last three afternoons tinkering away in the garage I've got everything back together again now. I've added the second HHO unit and also added an additional water pump as well.

I fired it up and as predicted we now have twice the gas output which should definitely be enough to get this thing finally up and running now.

We were just about to test it and the electrics cut off. So even at 220V we're still pulling some pretty heavy current! Turkish electrics aren't the best at the best of times and we got the local electrician in who tried a few things but still couldn't get us enough current without tripping the breakers.

So tomorrow he's putting in a heavy duty supply for me then finally we should get to test this next phase and see if we can get it running. There definitely appears to be enough gas available now compared to the previous phase so I have high hopes that tomorrow we will finally see the results of all our efforts.

Here's a little compilation video I put together... I hope you enjoy it...  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noRrlCYSDv8

All the very best

ethospete...





 

Hi Pete,

It seems as though the clip contains copyright material of WMG & EMI, so youtube has blocked access to it.
Could you upload it to the forum or perhaps to some other online video host (Vimeo....?), one that which doesn't f**k things up?

Thanks.

Hi Lynx

Typical...  lol ... it was only very short so I added an REM track on the end of it so that must have caused the problem... :rolleyes:

Here's the HHO bit without the soundtrack... I'll try vimeo for the original one as you suggest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmRop4rsdZ4

All the best

ethospete...