VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces

Earl

VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« on April 14th, 2020, 01:20 PM »Last edited on April 14th, 2020, 01:24 PM
To be able to continue my testing I needed a VIC which means I need  ferrite cores and something to hold them.  I decided to build them using ferrite pieces as I could not find anything that even came close to Stan's cores. I even was having a hard time finding a 1 to 20 step up transformer that NAV talks about in his experiments.  The primary and secondary coils in the VIC will provide that.  The rest of this post explains what I am using and how I am building the core holder.  This is the current state of holder with some of the ferrite pieces in place.  Rest of pieces are on order and I am still working of the rest of the holder including the coil sides.  One positive side of this is if it works you can purchase all the ferrite pieces on eBay for less than $35 depending how you buy them. You can even build the core holder with only hand tools though I am also using shop tools as I have them.

See Core tubes completed.JPG for current status showing what I am trying to build.


I am on using the dimensions and coil information provided in this forum with the exception of the ferrite size (see below) as a starting point.  Main change is to adjust holder to fit the ferrite pieces I have purchased.

I tried to find information on the ferrite cores sources and have not been able to find anything that appears to be close in size or shape.  I did find in this forum where some members made a special purchase but I did not start working on this project until after that purchased was made so I am going to attempt to build my own core from pieces as I will need a gap anyway based on what I have read in this forum. My assumption is even though each ferrite half is not a solid piece I will still need a gap between the 2 halves. One of the reasons I am going to try this as looking for ferrite cores I came across a company, do not remember which one, that had a kit of ferrite parts that could be used to protype transformers.  It was basically a collection of standard parts that you could put together to build cores of different sizes.  For example, standard corner pieces that you could then used to stack other ferrite sections on to build a core.  While it appears, this kit has been discontinued I liked the idea.  So, I tried to find separate flat pieces without much luck.  I even purchase some ferrite antenna rods but was not sure how I was going to do a good connection at corners.  I then came across E coil transformers.  They are in 2 pieces one E shaped and the second a flat bar that goes across the E.  I just wanted the flat bars. I purchase 4 sets of 2 for $28 which gave me 8 flat bars.  I was going to use 2 on each side.  After getting them, I think I will need 4 on each long side where the coils go as each bar is slight longer than 1” but dimension of the coils is 1.3” long. This means I will need 2 more sets which give me 4 bars for the ends.  Bar dimensions 4.44mm x 12.40mm x 33.19mm (0.173” x 0.488” x 1.306’’)
Note:  After I finished the tubes I went back and looked at the dimensions to find the size of the coil sides and found that the dimensions of the core and tubes where much closer match that I thought them were going to be.

I thought about using my tile saw to cut of the legs of the E bars and use them for the ends but while I think that would work I not sure I what to deal with ferrite dust at the cost of 4 more is so little.

NOTE PC 40 is 2300 permeability 
2pcs PC40 EI33 6+6pins Ferrite Cores bobbin, transformer core, inductor coil  $28. (Link to ebay where I found them. I also have seen 5 pcs for $7 but vender was out so I purchased these. When I decided I need more I purchase 2 sets of 5 for $22 still waiting for those to come.)

As I do not have a 3D printer to make the holders for the ferrite cores I started to make them out a of ½” plastic I have had for over 15 years.  I think it was used to make cutting boards not sure as it was given to me. It is slightly bigger that width of the bar so should make a nice box.  I have already cut sample pieces on my table saw 2mm thick that appear to have enough structural strength.  I could cut them thinner but not sure I should.  I have already done a glue test using vinyl and plastic cement and an epoxy plastic cement neither worked well on this material.  If I can not find a glue that works with this material, I will purchase a thin piece of plexiglass as I know I can get glue that works with it.  Plexiglass may be a better option as it will be easier for me to make the coil side pieces out of it. This would also better option for people without a table saw as you can cut it with scribe tool plexiglass.

To get a nice square corner I used my small laser saw mitre box to hold pieces while glue sets.  Use wax paper to keep glue off box and ferrite piece, not shown it picture. Picture below shows parts being used. There are 4 of the bars on piece in mitre box.  The black pins are oval so they can be turned to clamp item being worked on.

I am hoping this will work as the cost of the spools with frame built in and the ferrite cores will be less than $100 without wire. Even if it doesn’t it will give me practice winding coils and should work well enough for me to do some testing will primary and secondary coil.

“Test of VIC spool build.jpg” shows the E pieces and how I am assembling tubes. Wrapping the tube with wax paper kept glue off ferrite pieces and gave enough space for them side after cleaning off excess glue.

I could not find a glue that work on the white material, so I make strips out of plexiglass 0.1 inch thick.  I just happen to have some that I purchased at either Lowes or Home Depot (don’t remember cost guessing $20-$30).  I had purchased it to go around my wife’s sew machine to close out gape between it and her sew machine cabinet.  She did not need it any more has a new machine different size.

Couple of pictures of where I am at and a couple of constructions notes.  I stated above I cut strips using table saw to get straight and square edges that were just slightly larger than the with of the ferrite cores then glued on caps on edges first one being glued in picture above. I then put wax paper around ferrite core and glued the other side to bottom forming a u channel.  Because I did not want to try to cut the bottom and top narrow on my table saw this left a ledge on top and bottom that needs to be cut off.  Tried to do it on my table was but without make a special gig it did not work very well had get my fingers to close to blade.  Instead I use my disk sander and that worked well.  I also used my disk sander to bevel the edge to top and bottom pieces to 45 degrees about half the thickness of sheet.  I then used a small file to round the edges that worked very well.  You could do all this just using a file or sandpaper, but the disk sander made it go much quicker.  Note:  If you have problem making straight edges you could use factory edge and glue that side to piece next piece is then glued to second. Keep doing this going the same way.  Last piece is then glue to third piece and first piece’s factory edge.  You will have 4 pieces sticking out from tube that can them be trimmed back not critical as these edges will not be glued and will be rounded anyway. Just want to point out this can all be done with hand tools just takes longer.  I will use coping saw to cutout hole for the coil sides.

The “Core piece and side tubes full size.JPG” picture shows one of the small files I used and the wood piece I made to push ferrites in and out of the tubes.  I do not have all the ferrite pieces yet, but I just ordered 10 more from eBay $22. “Core pieces inside tubes.jpg” show ferrite pieces inside tubes to show what it will look like; the end ferrites are just setting on a piece of plexiglass as I had not finished those tubes yet.  Note: The picture shows the ferrite overlap and the extra space needed for the side of the end tub (see small piece of Plexiglas on left side sticking up). “Core pieces inside tubes.jpg” shows what it will look like front the ends.

“Core tubes completed.JPG” shows all 4 tubes with some pieces to show layout – waiting for more pieces to arrive.  Pieces on the ends need to stick out slightly to make good contact with side pieces. Have not started on coil sides yet or brackets to hold it all together.  I plan to add means of putting pressure on sides and ferrite pieces to keep ferrite contact tight.  (I dropped one of the pieces and it broke, but I ordered extras).  I left the side tubes long for now as not sure how big of a gap I will need. Though I expect that if I make the side tubes flush with the outside of end tubes I will have enough room to have a big enough gap but no one ever provide gap size information that I can find. Current layout is for zero gap on sides. I will need something to go into gape in middle of the 4 side pieces not sure what I will use yet.  I currently plan to just let the side pieces stick out slight past end ferrite but you could add spacer on inside edges of end tube where plastic is sticking up in the end view picture.  This would make ends flush.  Could do this on just one end and use a spacer the same thickness of the gap in the side pieces or both ends if you need a larger gap.

Next steps is to build the coil sides pieces should be fairly each using drill and coping swap. Drill four corners and use saw to get holes slight smaller than needed.  Then file to correct side.  I know this works as that is how I make plexiglass piece for my wife’s sewing machine.
I am also working on make a coil winder setup to hold the tubes.  I have a coil winder, but shaft is two big to fit into tubes.  I am making a holder on a separate shaft that will be driven by a toothed drive belt.  I am using toothed gears of the same size so I can use the counter on the coil winder. Gears I purchase come is same outside dimension and tooth count but have different inside dimensions.  Made by 3M found them on Amazon had to drill out the one for the coil winder as it not metric but found one that was close in size.  That project still in work designing and testing as I go.


securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #1, on April 14th, 2020, 08:53 PM »
NIce Earl

We have several cores , flat and  large also e cores ,
I can plan after lock down to send some if you like
Dan

securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #2, on April 19th, 2020, 12:49 AM »

https://youtu.be/DKtLhQ7tpZM

Comment from the Description of this video

My setup in April 2020 after many changes:
-New drive circuit provides a variety of functions and adjustments
-Ryobi 18V battery + programmable power supply makes setup more portable
-VIC made from Mn-Zn 10mmx100mm ferrite rods provides more accurate inductance's with similar
turns and resistance values as Stan's original VIC


BradK

5 days ago

Yeah, this tech like Stan mentioned
is a work of systems engineering. Change one component or value
 and the system doesn't work. My work all along
 has been trying to design a VIC... someday I might get there.

nice use of AM radio ferrite rods

 

 


Reply




 
 
Hide reply
 
BradK

5 days ago

Thanks. Their cheap too and give much closer
values (without gapping) than any other core I've tried.

Cool. Nice to know #1 gour still kicking! #2
you are healthy, without health you have nothing,
#3 you are sharing as you go along.
 I have not bought cores yet or wound spools.
 Have wire, but you previously had a different core.
You decided to go with this core because?

These cores have a lower AL value than all the
others I've tried plus a much larger winding window.
So, these cores give me much closer inductance values
 for the same amount of turns and resistance than Stan
 had in his VIC.

Ok. I will have to build a core and spools. I have a cell built.  I got a scope 4 channels now I have a board from R. Need to order parts for it. Where did you get your cores and corner pieces?
Greenenergytech2013  at  gmail dot com if you care to point me in some directions for materials.

Bought the cores on ebay. Made the corner pieces on my 3d printer. Let me know if you want I'll upload the files if not I could send some to you.
 
Paul Kainer
5 days ago

@BradK let me know how much. I can e transfer you the money?

 
 

Reply




 
 
Paul Kainer
5 days ago

@BradK if you printed the spools I would buy them too. I was trying to follow Ronnie Walker in the past but he has been quiet for a long time now. Not sure what happened

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #3, on April 19th, 2020, 10:40 AM »
Dan thanks for posting this.  These look like the rods I purchased just longer.  I was not sure how I was going to build mounts for these reason I decided to start with flat pieces.  He says he is not using gap.  It is my understanding that gap serves 2 purposes 1) lowers AL value and 2) is used to do coarse adjustment of the phase offset of signal.  Ronny Walker talked about that in his thread comment about gap by him for example
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #606, on November 11th, 2016, 11:33 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 11:35 AM
Getting back to Stan's Vic, can everyone see how the gap between the cores controls the coupling from the Primary to the Secondary which in return controls and fine tunes the voltage in the secondary and L1. And if you follow through with this to the positive plate, it also fine tunes the charge on that plate.

It would be easy to create a gap with setup by using two shorter rods on sides with coils instead of one long rod.

Belfior

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #4, on April 20th, 2020, 02:59 AM »
Hmm just read about how it is hard to even find a 1 to 20 step-up transformer. In my own experiments I was having trouble finding a HV source, that allows me to adjust voltage, frequency and have it all delivered with a pulse through one terminal.

So what I have now is a "cap charger" from ebay providing 0-800V DC. I make&break that with a mosfet circuit driver circuit and the output goes to a MOT primary. Secondary has one leg attached to he transformer core and the pulses come out the other.

I mean it can't take "everything" you throw at it, but I think it is a versatile pulse source for experiments. Burned my first driver circuit by using a 60V max mosfet... Also you might get insulation melting and arcing if you really start putting energy through it 

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #5, on April 24th, 2020, 05:00 PM »
Continued work on ferrite core holders building the coil sides.  I cut the plexiglass to close to the correct size and squared them up and ground them down to desired size with disk sander.  While I used a power mitre saw to do ruff sizing you need to be very careful when working with plexiglass or anything this small.  The coping saw I used to cut on hole actually would do this job.

The Cutting out hole.JPG shows the four counter holes you need to turn the coping saw.  Done on my drill press.  I set the back distance then just move plate to dill the holes it was quick.  The box lines are the size of the tubes.  I used them to locate the drill hole and then cut inside line with coping saw.  I then filed hole down to fit tube.  This ensured that hole was a tight fit.

The Drill hole for saw blade.JPG show larger hole being drill needed to get coping saw blade into plate.

Cutting out hole.JPG show hole being cut out with coping saw.  This was the first plate I did once this one was finished; I drilled all the plates then took vise off drill press as it was easier to saw the hole with vise clamped to table.  I used first plate as guide to file down hole in remaining plates when it got close used tube to check hole so I got a very snug fit.

Side tube with coil sides.JPG show on of the side tubes with coil sides installed.  With the snug fit I used gel super glue to glue plates to tube.  That gave me enough working time install the plates and get them square.

Next step is to finish coil winder that will hold the tubes while wind the coils.


HMS-776

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #6, on April 24th, 2020, 06:40 PM »
Earl,

First off- nice work. This hobby can be extremely time consuming as you know. I can tell you put many hours into that design, it looks really well done. 

I am BradK on youtube, I made that video Dan posted. I have been doing tests with and without gaps in the cores. Mostly what I'm trying to find is an off the shelf core that will give me the right balance. What I have found is that most off the shelf ferrite cores have AL values that are much too high, honestly I'd be surprised if any of them worked. So far I think the rods (or the flat bar your using) have the best chance of working.

The problem I'm having-You can gap any core and get the right inductance values, but the gap creates an invisible inductance and if it's too high it will take all the voltage. I posted a video on this a while back on how the leakage inductance is so high my tests showed I needed a load impedance of greater than 1M ohm just to get the voltage from the turns ratio across the load. I thought by getting current flowing the gas bubbles at electrodes would restrict current enough to allow the process to begin but my research since then says otherwise.

Also- Do you have a 3D printer?
I bought one last August for $123 with shipping. Definitely worth it. After fixing a few problems on it it's worked great ever since. I use Tinkercad (free online 3d modeling program) to design my bobbins etc. A 3D printer is the most useful thing I have bought for SM research so far.

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #7, on April 25th, 2020, 06:10 AM »
I will admit I am not sure this will work but needed  something to continue testing.  I also need to become more familiar with impedance matching.  To do this I was going to try and do the experiments Nav suggested in his recent AM post but I could not find even a transformer with the right size primary and secondary.  If nothing else this should provide that piece and give me more experience in wind coils.

If you have not looked at Nav's AM post I do recommend it.  He does a nice job explaining the need for doing 2 impedance matching steps.  One for the primary and secondary to generate the core flux and the second to match chokes to cells.  He shows how a resistor or proper cell load does the first one.  Using correct resistor solves the problem of being able to generate the high voltages.  You can have resister in circuit with cell but the resister is not need if cell has correct low impendence load.

I do not have a 3D printer have looked at them and have followed Russ's build as I find them interesting just have not had a need for one and most are expensive.  Where did you find the printer you purchased?

Your are correct this does take a lot time but I am retired and need something to do so time is not an issue for me.  Just wish more people were still active in here so I could get more advice about what I am doing. I have already build and tested most of Stan's GM so this is the next step.

I will take a look at your posts on youtube thanks for the reference.


HMS-776

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #8, on April 25th, 2020, 10:56 AM »
Bought my 3D printer on ebay. It's a Qidi X-one2. When I first got it I was surprised at how easy they are to use. Should have bought one years ago as it would have saved me alot of time waiting for bobbins and other parts to come in the mail.

Yeah check my channel on youtube just search BradK.

I will be doing a video soon on my VIC drive circuit.

securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #9, on April 26th, 2020, 12:02 AM »Last edited on April 27th, 2020, 07:16 PM
Hms,
can you post the  3dprint file for the rod holder &
corners please so we can try use the round ferrite
i think it is a beter method for kids and hobbyists to start on it with.

Daniel

HMS-776

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #10, on April 26th, 2020, 10:58 AM »
Here you go.

Keep in mind these are cheap cores-and their made cheap too.
Many of them are not straight and have edges on them, you'll probably have to file the rods and sand the inside of the holes to get them to fit.
That's what I had to do anyways. Also, you can easily cut these cores with a dremel with a diamond cutoff wheel but wear a mask or protect yourself from the dust because its very fine and gets everywhere. I cut my side rods shorter with no problems.

-Brad

securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #11, on April 27th, 2020, 07:19 PM »Last edited on April 27th, 2020, 11:59 PM
Cool HMS Great

How about the near prefect round  bobbins and spacers they look awesomee
3d printed? file

=========================
 hope we see more people  try using these round rods

Note =VIC made from Mn-Zn 10mmx100mm ferrite rods provides more accurate inductance's with similar
Sourced Ebay These cores have a lower AL value than all the others I've tried plus a much larger winding window. So, these cores give me much closer inductance values  for the same amount of turns and resistance than Stan   had in his VIC.

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #12, on May 6th, 2020, 05:09 PM »
This is my coil winder with the mount I made to hold the VIC tube.  Coil winder has counter and can be used either 1 to 1 or 1 to 8.  The drive gears on new mount were selected to maintain this ratio.  See Coil winder with VIC Tube.jpg   The item laying on the base is used to wind fishing flies.  I cut off the wires and just used tube.  I needed this mount to hold the rectangle tube to keep tube centered and because hole in tube is too small to fit shaft of coil winder.  There at 2 flange bearings in each post to keep things straight. I was concerned about the tension on belt causing problems without them.  Purchased them on Amazon.  These match 4mm hole on one of the drive gears.  I just used a 4mm screw to mount gear and wood box holding tube.

F695-2RS Bearing 5x13x4mm Flanged Miniature F695-RS Deep Groove Ball Bearings F695RS for VORON Mobius 2/3 3D Printer (Pick of 10Pcs)

I purchase the drive gears and belt on Amazon.  Kit Befenybay 2 Kit GT2 Synchronous Wheel 20&36 Teeth 8mm Bore Aluminum Timing Pulley with 2 pcs Length 200mm Width 6mm Belt (20-36T-8B-6)
 
Kit came with 2 large gears 2 small gears and belt.  I did purchase 2 different kits one for each size shaft, I used larger gear from each set this allowed me to keep the ratios the same as outside diameter is the same.

You can see it the tube better in the “Coil winder closeup of tube mount.jpg”.  The mount holding the tube manually swings left and right to guide the wire on to the coil though the tube.  While there is a slight arc during this movement it should not be a problem.  I used this tube as it has a ceramic tip and should protect the coating on the wire.  There are two bearings in the front mount top and bottom and a hole in the mount for the wire to feed though.
 
This mount can be moved over, and I drilled holes so it can be centered on each of the 3 coils spools.
 
The next step is to build a bracket to hold the spool of wire.  This should be easy, and I will provide a means of keeping tension on wire, so it spools cleanly.

Most likely with need more wire as I only have a pound.  Wanted to make sure I could build a coil before I ordered more.

The rest of the ferrite pieces I ordered from eBay arrived, so I have all those I need.



Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #14, on June 3rd, 2020, 05:47 PM »Last edited on June 3rd, 2020, 05:50 PM
Now I am back to the issue of how many turns to put on each coil.  I plan on winding the coils based on the following post as I do not recall anything thing else that gave the number of turns for the primary and secondary.

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #298, on October 31st, 2016, 07:10 PM »Last edited on October 31st, 2016, 07:17 PM
Threw this together to work through the impedance matching.  Hopefully it's helpful.

The way I did this is to have a manual turns ratio, then a calculated turns ratio using Ronnie's formulas.  You can use Excel to goal-seek so that the two values are equal.  That will find the values you can build around.  Base everything you do off the primary and you should be good to go.

This was one source I looked at.  This is close but Stan’s primary was 10.5 ohms so another 12 turns would give 10.5 ohms matching Stan’s value. 
After thinking about this for several days while I like the analysis, I do not feel it matches the cores I built. Mine are rectangle and follow the dimensions in the Project Icoros closely.   So, I am going to try to use 540 turns.   
I am using 29 gage wire which is 81.83 ohms/1000ft or .08183 ohms/foot.  So, if I am only off a few feet it should not have much of impact on resistance value.
 
Remember we are using a 220-ohm resister in parallel across the primary coil.  Goal is to create a 10-volt load on system.  Using the formula for parallel resistors 220 ohms in parallel primary gives values in following table for different values of coils resistance on top:   
10.1           10.2          10.3          10.4    10.5   10.6           10.7           10.8           10.9
9.675   9.767   9.859   9.95    10.04   10.13   10.22   10.32   10.41

Next couple of references explain why you need 220-ohm resistor and 30:1 ratio

Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build. 
« Reply #12, on December 2nd, 2015, 07:40 PM »Last edited on December 2nd, 2015, 07:45 PM

No really it runs cool not warm at all. If you take Stan's primary which is 10.5 ohms when you do the math on impedance on the primary you will find that it needs to be 10 ohms. (10.5 and 220 ohms in parallel = 10 ohms) So placing a 220-ohm resistor across the primary it bring it right down to where it needs to be.

Working toward 30:1 ratio see explanation from Ronnie below
Re: WATER FUEL CELL Technical Brief (Building, Testing and Understanding Stan's Work)
« Reply #1780, on December 22nd, 2014, 05:42 PM »Last edited on December 22nd, 2014, 08:48 PM
@ Webmug, When you add the total Z which you have at 219.2 ohms 220 just to round numbers excluding the Re of the water. Now you are saying the resistance of your water is 1972 ohms. Stan does not want the (R) resistance of the water, He is wanting the (Re) of the water. The Re of the water can be anywhere from 70 to 80 which is the Dielectric Constant of water. Stan say's the Re is 78.54 at 25C. Now let's add 220 total coil resistance, and 80 Re dielectric of water. Now we have the total Z which is 300. We now can divide 300/10.5 which = 28.57 so we have a 28.57/1 ratio. Odd ratio, now how do we fix this odd ratio. Simple just like Stan did........put a 220 ohm resistor across the primary.... Now we have a 220 ohm resistor in parallel with a 10.5 ohm coil.... Now what does this give us? It changes the 10.5 ohms in the primary to 10 ohms. Now we have 300/10 which equals 30:1 ratio. There you go now you have another piece of the mystery. You could have found this information at http://app.hydrofuel.ca Webmug when you get everything worked out you will see why you cannot use 1 cell to get this to work. There is now way because the capacitance is too high in the cell. Just keep working it out and you will see what I am talking about...Your doing a great Job as I have said before. Keep it up and don't give up, you have come to far.

To get started I wound 540 turns on 29 gage wire on primary spool. I was able to get first row to lay down smoothly went pretty fast as spool winder has an 1 to 8 ratio.  It was almost impossible to do get other rows as smooth it is hard to see that small of wire.  When I got done, I measured the resistance and got 8.4 ohms.  Which means that I had just slightly more than 100 ft of wire on the spool, so I need either change wire size or add more turns.  I did check 30 gage wire and 540 turns would be closer to 10.5 as it is 10.32 ohms per 100ft.

Advantage of 29 gage wire is it can handle 1.2 amps where 30 gage wire current limit is 0.86 amps.  I seem to remember people were using 30 gage because they could not find 29 gage wire. Will have to see if I can find the discussion on wire size and turns ratios to see what I should be using.

Good new is coil winder setup is working though I may need to add method to measure length so I can get the right resistance.

Impendence matching is really not my thing but I understand it is important in this systems.  At this point I am not sure I can just wind enough wire to get the right resistance or do I also need to have the right turns ratios.  I know the choke coils need to have close turns ratios and need to be adjusted to match impedance.  Just not sure right now if primary and secondary need a fixed ratio.

Oh well I building and testing to learn things.

Pictures of building first cut of primary coil

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #15, on June 3rd, 2020, 06:37 PM »
I just found post were Ronnie recommended 29 gage wire which is why I purchased some.   There are numbers for 30 gage in this thread as well. I am going to re-read by collection of comments from this thread as it has directions on how to wire up coils as well. 

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #590, on November 11th, 2016, 08:47 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 08:49 AM
29 gauge is the best it has a 1.2 amp rating, since we need 1 amp. 30 gauge is under rated it is only good for .86 amps. So a balance between 28 and 30 gauge is 29 gauge if you can get it. If you can't get 29 gauge, I would shoot for 28 gauge for it has an amp rating of 1.4 amps.

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #16, on June 4th, 2020, 02:50 PM »
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #72, on October 24th, 2016, 03:03 PM »Last edited on October 24th, 2016, 03:10 PM

Quote from X-Blade on October 24th, 2016, 02:30 PM
Ronnie, Is that second stage (resonance) automatic when the voltage goes up to a certain level or we have to do something special?

We can clearly hear Stan saying that resonance superimposes the particle impact to the polarization process rising the yield of gas production (New Zealand house meeting video)
You want that resonance to occur at your peak voltage applied to the primary and not before. That way you get all the high voltage you can produce on the secondary side when it goes into resonance. The leakage current is what's controlled from 2 to 11 or 12 volts. it's automatic once tuned the L1 choke and cells has to be designed to setup the amp leakage along with Frequency.

Let's take Stan's primary for instance:
It has 10.5 ohms in the coil of wire used because he wants a 500 turn on the primary.
The wire he uses is rated at 1.2 amps. in order to get 1.2 amp in the primary you just take 10.5 ohms and a 220 ohm resistor in parallel with the coil and it will give you 1/(1/220+1/10.5)= 9.97 close enough to 10 ohms then you take 12volts/10ohms=1.2 amps

You don't want to fool with your turn count ratio.

I went back and re-read my collection of notes from the thread above.  And 500 turns could be correct for 29 gate wire if the diameter of the coil is larger than mine.  Will need to do some checking Ronnie in another post shows how to calculate turns ratios using watts in and watts out.  It’s possible I just need to use more turns as long as I get the proper turns ratio.

There is a lot of information in this thread that I had forgotten.  Talks about using different gape sizes legs of core to adjust voltage on plates B+ and B- (which need to be different) as well as using winding on L1 and L2 coils to get voltages correct. 
Ronnie stated need to have pressure on cell to keep charge on cell so process does not need to start from scratch. As well as having 1.23 volts on cell at all times when running.  When off the pressure keeps cell charged.

Also has the information on how to wire coils properly and says to use timing 41hz to charge cell.



Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #18, on June 6th, 2020, 09:54 AM »
Dan,
I hope you get as much out re-reading this thread as I did this time.  While I have read this thread several times and each time, I read it something else sinks in.  I picked up on the gas pressure because you posted you were working on the gas regulator board.  Also, in replies to that someone posted one of Stan’s video about someone coming to see is work and I noticed that his cells were sealed and had a pressure gage on it.  So, Ronnie’s comment about pressure being required really sunk in because I was thinking about looking at pressure.   Thing is I had already highlighted in my collection of posts as being important.  Pressure does 2 things causes gas to flow and keeps water level down.  I expect it also reduces shock of stopping system just like air in a water tank.

Coulomb’s law is another case, Ronnie states you will never get system work if you do not understand it.  Stan referenced it in his documents and Puharich shows the math that needs to be solved.  They say it needs to be solved but do not really say how system does that.  When I read thread, this time it sunk in.  System need to be close to resonance but charge on cell walls need to be different. Ronnie’s comments on different gapes sizes in core legs and different winding on chokes show how to do you do that.  If I understand correctly, you are able to do that in this system because of the gapes between cores and because the Primary and C1 are one core and Secondary and C2 are on the other.

It also became clearer that you need to design system to do several things at the same time.  Get to resonance to produce a lot of gas.  But it needs to be high energy gas Ronnie talks about be able to use all the energy, balance system to be fully in resonance at 10-12 volt input and not before.  It also must be constantly conditioning the water and it appears an ideal resonance system does not do that, you need some leakage to do the conditioning.  If I understand Nav’s post in his thread about AM signal you also need leakage to keep your voltage levels high by providing “ohm” resistance to maintain flux levels. Ronnie shows you need to maintain impedance balance through system. He show how you use ohms law to match load to source.

I would guess more of this sunk in this time was I am just starting to look at the coils up to now I have been more focus in understand the signal wave forms and how they were generated.  Personal interest, as I have never really like impendence issues even when studying electrical engineering in college.

Dan the item below is for Ronne’s other thread I copied out my other collection.  I still have not figured out why this important other than you need even number of cells.  Do you know what he is getting at?  Only thing I can think of is total resistance of the cells as talks about using that in determining the 30 to 1 ratio.

Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #13, on December 3rd, 2015, 04:23 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2015, 04:40 AM

Nav, As you reverse engineer the VIC transformer I would like to give you a very important hint. At the same time you must reverse engineer the CELL at the same time. If you don't, the reversed engineered VIC will be useless as you have seen in the past that everyone has tried to replicate. Keep this number (10) in the back of your mind at all times while your reading and doing your research. Stan used (10) Cells in series with his VIC for a very very important reason. No one will ever be able to scale the VIC and Cell up or down unless they stumble upon why (10) cells were used in series. Just keep (10) in your mind at all times, it is a very important number while you’re doing your impedance matching research. This is one of the most useful post I have ever posted, and will determine if you or anyone are successful or not.

securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #19, on June 6th, 2020, 10:52 AM »
yes there must be a signal to the  board for it to starrt working
the gate board will not work without putting a signal on the pin from the gas feedback
to the pin on the gate board.
It just sensed the pressure in the cell. As the pressure drops\
 it increases the voltage to the cell and also shortens the gate time on the gate board.
As the pressure increases it just does opposite
Dan

securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #20, on June 6th, 2020, 10:58 AM »
Quote from Earl on June 6th, 2020, 09:54 AM
Dan,
I hope you get as much out re-reading this thread as I did this time.  While I have read this thread several times and each time, I read it something else sinks in.  I picked up on the gas pressure because you posted you were working on the gas regulator board.  Also, in replies to that someone posted one of Stan’s video about someone coming to see is work and I noticed that his cells were sealed and had a pressure gage on it.  So, Ronnie’s comment about pressure being required really sunk in because I was thinking about looking at pressure.   Thing is I had already highlighted in my collection of posts as being important.  Pressure does 2 things causes gas to flow and keeps water level down.  I expect it also reduces shock of stopping system just like air in a water tank.

Coulomb’s law is another case, Ronnie states you will never get system work if you do not understand it.  Stan referenced it in his documents and Puharich shows the math that needs to be solved.  They say it needs to be solved but do not really say how system does that.  When I read thread, this time it sunk in.  System need to be close to resonance but charge on cell walls need to be different. Ronnie’s comments on different gapes sizes in core legs and different winding on chokes show how to do you do that.  If I understand correctly, you are able to do that in this system because of the gapes between cores and because the Primary and C1 are one core and Secondary and C2 are on the other.

It also became clearer that you need to design system to do several things at the same time.  Get to resonance to produce a lot of gas.  But it needs to be high energy gas Ronnie talks about be able to use all the energy, balance system to be fully in resonance at 10-12 volt input and not before.  It also must be constantly conditioning the water and it appears an ideal resonance system does not do that, you need some leakage to do the conditioning.  If I understand Nav’s post in his thread about AM signal you also need leakage to keep your voltage levels high by providing “ohm” resistance to maintain flux levels. Ronnie shows you need to maintain impedance balance through system. He show how you use ohms law to match load to source.

I would guess more of this sunk in this time was I am just starting to look at the coils up to now I have been more focus in understand the signal wave forms and how they were generated.  Personal interest, as I have never really like impendence issues even when studying electrical engineering in college.

Dan the item below is for Ronne’s other thread I copied out my other collection.  I still have not figured out why this important other than you need even number of cells.  Do you know what he is getting at?  Only thing I can think of is total resistance of the cells as talks about using that in determining the 30 to 1 ratio.

Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #13, on December 3rd, 2015, 04:23 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2015, 04:40 AM

Nav, As you reverse engineer the VIC transformer I would like to give you a very important hint. At the same time you must reverse engineer the CELL at the same time. If you don't, the reversed engineered VIC will be useless as you have seen in the past that everyone has tried to replicate. Keep this number (10) in the back of your mind at all times while your reading and doing your research. Stan used (10) Cells in series with his VIC for a very very important reason. No one will ever be able to scale the VIC and Cell up or down unless they stumble upon why (10) cells were used in series. Just keep (10) in your mind at all times, it is a very important number while you’re doing your impedance matching research. This is one of the most useful post I have ever posted, and will determine if you or anyone are successful or not.
=========================================
We can note each component has inherent capacitence  , resistors, and transitors, you can get parts with out capacitence, but most supplier never put a lc meter on them, to know ,

Ronnie may be reffering to the fact that the cell has a resistance value and a combined coupling frequency RF ,
which steams from that capcitence (cll ni series) parts in series..
there are frequency matching  circuits
 knowing that parts can have high capacentence is some thing a radio engineer would know when tuning rf and PLL ranges to lock in .

Dan 

securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #21, on June 6th, 2020, 10:43 PM »
one may want to listen to Don Smith videos and his Comments about Resistence capacitence charts from the
Amuetur radio association to find frequencys ranges.

DD

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #22, on June 15th, 2020, 02:51 PM »
#10 also shows up in Ronnie post

Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #54, on December 5th, 2015, 08:01 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2015, 08:36 AM
What is the Total Z of this circuit using Stan's formulas? You can work out the Z value of the L1 and L2 along with the capacitance value from the chart below and the formulas from the Tech Brief  Eq 1,8,9. This will be with air core values. I would like to see everyone's answer; this could show how everyone has a different answer. Also notice where the #(10) shows up.
 
Only thing I see 10 of is the ohms for the cells.    (could Re be a factor of 10??)

Also I find it interesting that I appears many people do not seem to build the feedback coil even though Ronnie uses the Z value in all his calculations including the turns calculations.

Earl

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #23, on June 15th, 2020, 03:33 PM »
Once I figured out I need to add more turns to primary to get 10.5 ohms of resistance I became worried about turns ratio.  The process looked right is excel spread sheet above I did not trust the turns ratios was correct, so I went back to Ronnie’s other thread and found this. Which shows I need a ratio of 5.567 to 1. Will not know if I get close enough until I actually wind the wire. I plan to start out with primary winding know length of wire that is equal to 10.5 ohms.  Coil winder will then give me number of turns for this resistance.  Will do the same for secondary to see how close I get turns ratio.  There were comments about being something than you have to play with to get correct.  Given a fix resistance and fixed turns ratio only thing in this system I can see you can change is spool width. I expect the changing the secondary would have the most effect do to increased length of each turn as you add more wire.  There is some discussion about this issue in the thread.
In this post he also explains coil relation to secondary and goal of getting voltage potential across coil plates.

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #257, on October 30th, 2016, 07:36 PM »Last edited on November 13th, 2016, 02:32 PM
Using Stan's Vic and the numbers Don gave us as an example, I will attempt to show how to impedance match it all.
Question is what is the purpose of Impedance matching?
The answer is Watts in must equal Watts out. (Isn't that right Mr. Watts: clap:)

Let's start with the Primary, I have already show it has 10 ohms of impedance in it and how it is calculated.

Line(Primary) side=10 ohms
12volts/10ohms=1.2amps
1.2amps*12volts=14.4watts

Next we use a transformer (Amplifier) to match the Load side.
we need to know the total resistance of the load side.
Secondary side= 72.4+76.7+70.1+Re78.54+11.5=310 ohms

Now that we have a total resistance of the line side of 10ohms
and a total resistance of the load side of 310ohms

Next we take the 310ohms and 10ohms and use this formula to get the turn ratio.
Ns/Np=sqrt Zs/Zp   sqrt (310/10)=5.567
So we need a turn ratio of 5.567 to 1

We know our line voltage is 12volts We can times this by the turn ratio of 5.567 which is =66.816 Load Voltage
Now we have our load voltage.
Next we calculate the load watts
using formula (66.816 ^2)/310ohms= 14.4 watts

That's how you do it. :bliss:
 
Matt, The 11.5 is the feedback coil.....and yes that is correct the chokes must match the secondary....That's why if you take turns off the L2 they must be added back to L1. In Stan's example secondary is 73ohms close enough, then 76ohm for the L1 and 70 for L2 if you take 3ohms off the L1 and put that 3 ohms back on the L2 you can see they all match to 73ohms. Why does he do this? It's to get the slight potential difference in voltage needed on the chokes. Yea My brain can't keep all this straight, that's the reason for the spreadsheet. Too much math to deal with all at the same time. Now you can see when someone ask me a question, how my brain gets all scrambled.
End Thread Comment

Before doing anything else I decided to see what my systems would look like with 29 gage wire.  I used the information from the primary coil I wound to estimate the ohms per turn and came up 0.0156omhs/ft. (Coil I wound was 8.4 ohms and 540 turns so I divided 8.4/540 to get this estimate). I then used this number to estimate the number of turns required to get the required ohms for each coil.  Finally, I added all the secondary side turns include the one for Re and divided it my primary turns and got 29.45143.  This is close to 30 a 30:1 ratio.  I am not sure if this is correct but none of the other ratios seemed correct.  I include Re even though there is not a coil for it as Re ohm value was include by Ronnie in doing his calculations and it did not seem right to leave it out.  I do know there will be some changes in value as length of turn on larger coils will be slightly longer which should reduce number of turns required to reach desired ohm value.
Table below is from my excel sheet I used repeat Ronnie’s calculations. I find do the calculations myself helps me understand where numbers come from and why.  Again, the turns work at this point is an estimate to see if I was even in the right ball part.

As the above table gave close to a 1:30 ratio I will continue winding coils to see what results I actually get.   As I want to get keep the ohm values close to numbers above, I am planning on winding the number of feet of wire that should give me desired ohm value.  This means I will need a method to accurately determine desire length of each coil.  To do this I build a jig that I can wind wire on.  It will be two spools 5 feet apart mounted on a board, so each wrap is 10 feet long.  Using spools this far apart I should be easily able to fit the longest length.

Note:  There was some discussion in the thread about dealing with turns ratio and resistance mainly that one effects the other.  Discussion did not say which is more important other than Ronnie’s comment to not mess with turns ratio.  See his discussion on keeping Secondary, C1 and C2 ohms around 73 ohms and taking turns off C2 and putting them on to keep total ohm value of those two coils at average of 73 ohms. i.e. for each turn taken off C2 one needs to be put back on C1.  Which means you need to have enough wire available to do that.  It was recommended that you leave wire on C1 and C2 long enough to adjust the balance which means you should have some length of wire that is not on the coils. This means you will have some wire and ohms that are not in turns calculation. Extra wire resistance is this there until satisfied with balance, but it will not be in magnetic field, so I am not sure how to account for this.

At this point I still do not have cells, just trying to understand why this piece is the way it is and if I can build it correctly even though I understand adjustment of C1 and C2 require properly configured cells. Ronnie even states you need to start with cells and build to them not the other way around as they define load you trying to balance.

I have rewound about 70 feet of wire that I took off the primary coil on to the Feedback coil as I calculated half of 11.5 was slightly over 70 feet. Turned out to be slight less than 70 feet to give 5.75 ohms (measured). Once I add the center tap for the 5-volt offset I will add another 70 feet.  Turns actual wire resistance is slightly high that estimated reference number I was using.

I wound it this way a that is what circuit diagram shows.  I think I read others have wound both wire at the same time. I have been trying to figure out which is the correct way and it may not matter the way it is connect to K14.  Voltage difference is not issue as it phasing of the signal is what is being used.



securesupplies

Re: VIC Core built using Ferrite Pieces
« Reply #24, on June 15th, 2020, 10:05 PM »

Nice post to expand on well done,

notes
there are several versions
we can note

Woodsite stated it can be a mechanical oscillationstep charge  with tap voltage on transformer

Petlov stated that  option is to put addional bifilar between toroid &  chokes and cell

a Multi Sppol bifilar wound bobbin may acomplish both in some assembly versions 

D

Links

Spool https://www.hot-rod-usa.com/copy-of-vic-bobbin-style-1
Circuit Wodside petlov https://www.hot-rod-usa.com/modern-circut-drawings