Thanks Earl

It is interesting notes,
 there are some issue with the sensor range on hv Dc of our cells
, not sure if they can handle hv environment

 if they can great
we can also measure and calibrate with water proof ultra sonic.
 if a physical live capacitance measurement is required we could say
 it might have to be the unpaired 11 th cell ( or the odd unpaired cell in any array )
Dan

Dan,
I wanted to double check what I said about variable capacitors and voltage is correct, so I looked up a couple of articles.  This is one of the references

Introducing a dielectric into a capacitor decreases the electric field, which decreases the voltage, which increases the capacitance. A capacitor with a dielectric stores the same charge as one without a dielectric, but at a lower voltage.  Voltage and capacitance are inversely proportional when charge is constant.


Dielectrics – The Physics Hypertextbook

This means a cell full of water when charged will always have a lower voltage than one filled with air.  As we are not concerned about charge of the cell to get a higher voltage remove some or all the water.  Air dielectric value is 1 and water is 80.
 
I then search on what happen when capacitor is half filled got several answers but this one is good quick summary.

Capaciter partially filled with dielectric — Collection of Solved ...
physicstasks.eu › capaciter-partially-filled-with-dielectric

Oct 31, 2018 — Capacitor that is filled with dielectric this way can be replaced with two parallel capacitors. One will be filled with air and one will be completely filled with dielectric.

This is for a capacitor where dielectric is “perpendicular” to plates which is what we have with vertical tubes.  Other articles include all the equations for the calculation.

Removing water will lower the capacitance of cell and change its impedance.  Result will be a lower charge but with a higher voltage.  In our case we do not care about the charge as we want a high voltage.

Ronnie talks about operating in air (dielectric being Hydrogen and Oxygen) but still needing leakage current to keep flux up and to polarize the water which I believe requires there be some water in the cells
.
One of the reasons I brought this up is I have heard the reason many people stopped trying to make system work is they could not get enough voltage on the cells.

some points

yes tune with air learn
2 water , we can consider that water is the medium to dissolve the gas
3 if we have too much gas we can rapidly expand with any static spark
4 we can add dbd layer
6 the 90degree angle of charge is important to understand or voltage goes through cell no magnetic effect
7 Voltage and static frequency doing work is left out of the physics hand  book
8 Stan Mentions in some lectures that the charge is what cause production during gate thus no other form of method can equal or match his as the electrons are release during off time as a result of on going charge and production during gate
so we must consider yes we do what both charge and voltage , it is up to us to learn rediscover and teach the skills of the art to make hold and grow both same time

9 a bubble layer on cell wall or dbd can be used.

Dan I agree.  I went to the physic sites as they had the answer to my question of what happens when dielectric level changes in cell.  Interesting one of the sites used water to illustrate how a capacitor works and describe water as being polar molecule with plus and minus charge and even high lighted hydrogen being 104 degrees apart and that water molecule is elongated when voltage is applied.

I have been continuing to think about Ronnie's comment about tuning in air.  He never says that system will operate completely in air.  If you tune in air your system will operate with a cell at that capacitance. I expect this may set a limit that will keep they system from running away and destroying our coils.  Then your system can run with some of the water being removed without system running away.  I also believe you must have some water in cell so water can continue to be conditioned and elongated before it is split.

Beside trying to understand what is happening in cell Ronnie’s posts below is one of the reasons I want was trying to answer that question about water level.

“Allan(Rav) and I fumbled with the dielectric constant of the water being 78.54 ohms the same way most people are doing also when we were doing our own research on it. I showed references in the post above and like I said they are many more in other documents of his. You can only can come to a conclusion he is not telling the truth, or people don't yet understand how he comes up with it being 78.54 ohms.

Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #62, on December 5th, 2015, 09:32 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2015, 10:01 AM
Good number for hydrogen and oxygen as the dielectric, I would think.
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #65, on December 5th, 2015, 10:02 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Quote from resonance1 on December 5th, 2015, 09:51 AM
I don't think Stan is telling lies at this point but likely misusing the term ohms as a dielectric constant,

it seems obvious that when the cell is producing lots of gas the dielectric value will be much lower than when the cell is only full of water, Stan tells us it changes with gas production in his talk but not in which direction it changes,

I could be wrong but that's how it looks to me.
Good post.  Guy's I am going to throw this out there to you all for what's it worth. Water is not going to be the dielectric in the cell forever. And It looks like a couple of you are catching on now. My deed is done.”

Note:  I looked up dielectric value for hydrogen and oxygen O2 =.85 and H2 =.65 so 78.85 does not make sense unless there is also some water in number.  It is also possible cell could be full and the dielectric value changes because there are H2 and O2 intermixed with the water.

Sorry if this is so long but I am trying to understand way things work and what changes to system do.

As an aside at this point, it appears having a ferrite core made up of pieces seems to work as long as you have a means to keep interfaces tight.

Back to testing: In this series I am looking at cell interface while changing frequency.  The load is a 220pF capacitor and 230-ohm resistor in series. The 220pF capacitor is a good match for the inductance of my test system to get resonance around 5khz. Analog voltage was set slightly above minimum valve.

I had earlier tried a test with resistor across the capacitor as Nav had talked about doing resistor across cell to keep up flux in core.  In my test this did not work as resistors in parallel limited voltage across cell to mV.

In this series I start round 5khz and worked my way down.  I believe I am seeing the system in resonance as there is a definite jump in the voltage which you can see in the Math function and also on CH1 yellow which is on the negative side of the cell. CH2 blue is on positive side of cell.  This is the only place I see a big change in offset for both the analog and digital wave trains (I am zoomed in, so this is inside of one pulse).
 
Note: Assume the frequency displayed is incorrect most cases. I zoomed out to read value or moved scope probe to primary input to check it.

PCC1 is at 5Khz with very slight adjustment to frequency dial to get clean ramp.  I am looking a single pulse as it much easier to see change. You can zoom a couple of pulses and still see shape but much further and trace is just a blob.

PCC2 is basically the same setting but just moving dial very slightly lower you can also get same thing by going slightly higher

PCC3 is what you get if you go a little bit higher, I do not get signal back going higher

PCC4 is signal at 4khz

PCC5 is signal at 2.5khz as you scan across you see a slight voltage jump at a few other frequencies like shown here.

PCC6 is signal at 1khz.

PCC7 Is a zoomed in even closer than signal in PPC1 in this case I believe the 5.556kHz number for channel on the scope is correct.  I also think based on information I recently read that the shape indicates frequency doubling which means that my diode is working.  I wonder about that as I expected to see frequency to double but scope only see it as one pulse.  One other thing I recently read was the use of flux sensor which showed flux doubling not sure if it was in same article.

NOTE:  When I have the signal that looks like PCC1 the lock light on the board came on.  This is the first time that has happen since I got system above about 800hz. It goes out when it looks like PCC2.  I have been trying to see if I can find this state using inputs to primary, it is too hard to tell though I can see some change in analog signal.  Problem with using lock light is take a little while for it to come on but I can see shape quick on scope.

I still have not figured out what to look at to determine voltage differential across the cell of 1.23v that Ronnie talks about.

Note

For the People Following , it is vital to remember that stan made over 11 versions all work.
this version being discussed is  version 5 to 6 forward and was simplified to injector system ,
the System in discussion is for making high volume of gas when doing so several things will happen, 1 alot of gas pressure,
2 alot of bubbles, 3 alot of nano bubbles  , 4 lot of electrons and voltage ,

Controlling and stabilizing cell with this occurring is a skill of the art for this version
consider most advanced

it is not some thing in a text book beyond Stans as it has to be learnt
 so we all recognize the effect what is happening and than control tune and control where that pressure and gas bubbles go and
are held.

Earl is doing a fine job of expanding conversation with his detailed testing notes.
, there  are several things to keep in mind it is the combined resistance of all parts
to make up measurements,  i mentioned from Ronnie and from hours and hours of testing and study

 the tuning of the resistance and nano bubbles and smoothing of dbd barrier effect
and spaces when discussing this version .

by mastering all versions we can better understand this version

and than we can make alot of gas on demand with low amps and alot
 of nano bubble water. ready for distribution.
Provided we control the state of that water for long period upto 2 years.

KEEP IN MIND Stan Efficiency can be made simply with the other 5 to 6 versions so world can get on using those today
and these version will be continued to be proven understood , but remember the out come of this particular version
is lot more gas than we need so what do we do with it and where to we store it has gas bubbles ?

Poster of versions for people following
this is a guide only to assist understanding

In this series I start round 5khz and worked my way down.  I believe I am seeing the system in resonance as there is a definite jump in the voltage which you can see in the Math function and also on CH1 yellow which is on the negative side of the cell. CH2 blue is on positive side of cell.  This is the only place I see a big change in offset for both the analog and digital wave trains (I am zoomed in, so this is inside of one pulse).
 
Note: Assume the frequency displayed is incorrect most cases. I zoomed out to read value or moved scope probe to primary input to check it.

PCC1 is at 5Khz with very slight adjustment to frequency dial to get clean ramp.  I am looking a single pulse as it much easier to see change. You can zoom a couple of pulses and still see shape but much further and trace is just a blob.

Earl please review  Petlov videos on water and signals and Nav Tau space 3 seconds
 to see some areas for review
https://www.youtube.com/user/valyonpz


Dan

Dan

Thanks for the poster and the note about the other versions.  It does not surprise me that they exist at he was trying to do a lot of different things.  I got into this method mainly due to Ronnie's threads and other that focused on the VIC.  Ronnie and others provide a lot of detail on why it worked (all the math and reason for it).  I have read those threads and others multiple times and still keep going back to them as move through my stages of testing.  I started to build because I have the time and interest but I also had several questions on where things were done as no operator instructions.  Questions were where was gate created and introduced, where did he create the analog and digital wave trains, where did he combine them, and even where were the voltage levels set.  I think I know the answers to most of those questions now though as you can tell I am still working on new ones (how to set voltage difference across coils and even how to measure it).

One of questions others kept asking was what did the wave train look like.  The final signal at the cell does not tell you what goes into creating it.  That is what I have been trying to understand and what adjustments do to it.  Turns on there is a lot of things you have to set correctly in Stan's circuits to setup before the final controls can be used. I am still not sure if I have the right which is why I try to list them at start of each test series.

One of questions I working on now is Ronnie's comments to tuning.  I expect there are two parts to this.  Tune the hardware to get coils matched to cells, which he covers in his 2 treads. Second is tuning for each voltage step during conditioning.  While he said it need to be done and why he never explained what to change to do it.

I tend to provide to much detail in my reports, if I was writing a users guide I would simplify things, like value of k2 for example to 50hz and show what it looks like, and do this for each functions.  The details of circuits I would then put in trouble shooting document as most people don't care they just want to know the minimum to use it.

Dan,

Thanks, for YouTube reference to Valyonpz.  While I had seen some of the Videos it was a long time ago and at the point I did not understand what I was seeing.  He does a great job and at explaining things, I like how we includes scope setup and input information so you can really see what he is doing.  His explanations of difference methods of showing the same things in Meyer's diagrams was also very useful.  I can see I choose to work on the hardest method of doing this. I can see where Stan in version I am working on has built in several of things, like the gate generator and ability to sync on the signals which have to be done manually in other version.

He description of what the sync signal look likes is what I needed for the current testing I am doing.

 Great , well you need the challenge I guess this version takes alot of skill knowledge and practice

i know when you see the other versions alot of it now makes sense and is easier.

Together we the people work to re discover,  document better and share and preserve this valuable knowledge
for the world of  Hydrogen Hot Rodder's and home builders to preserve.

the Signals into the Db are the important ones to firm up and document for each pin thi than allows people to connect dots from k2 k3
into vic transformer daughter board. , i know and mention again there need to be ( as Russ showed very careful Tip 120 brand model selection on the vic driver daughter board etc

welcome and invite Russ Webmug and Ronnie or other to post part number or brand they feel are solid

Which brand model number part # are you using Earl?

Dan

For the T120  I purchased a 12 pack of STMiroelectronics TIP120 T...rlington Transistor  at least that is what on label.  Most likely got them from Amazon as that's where I found most of the parts I needed.

Keep in mind I did not build the VIC board but built test board from the schematics so I have all the parts but on different boards.  My connections are direct board to board.  In the case of the coils I used strip connectors so my connections are different. Also allow me to disconnect things so I can take measurements at different points.

This picture from Stanley Estate information is what I think you are looking for as it show the pin out to 9-pin going to coils.  It also shows all the coil connections to the BP pin numbers see lower right.  I think the Feedback coil in middle is drawn wrong S and F connections are mostly correct but 5V Bias is missing and should come from 5 volt regular on board.

In this picture it shows all the connections going to 44 pin back plane (BP).  Number on back side I started with 23 same end as front number 1, So
DB9 pin1 goes BP14
DB9 pin2 goes BP16
DB9 pin3 goes BP15
DB9 pin4 goes BP17
DB9 pin5 no connection
DB9 pin6 goes BP22   Gate (A)           
DB9 pin7 goes BP1   Analog Input (J)   
DB9 pin8 goes BP24 Alternate Analog Input (J)
DB9 pin9 goes BP20 and 21 and multiple other connections (GND)

I know there are pictures in the forum that show what signals are on each of black plane pins I just can find one right now.

here is what the daughter board and db9 looks like

dd

Looks like the last stages of K9 but with and extra TIP 120.  I l looked at Sketch some more and realized the second TIP is most likely the one from last stage of K4.  Sketch show K4 collector output going to BP pin 8 (I believe to test connector) it may go through the 5A1KV diode first and also directly connect to PRI Coil.

Still trying to check a few things on the sketch like pin 8 on 9 pin connector.  It appears some pins on card feed through and others do not.  The input to Primary is case that they do not, as it could be battery + if switch is in batt position or is can be the output of emitter 2N3055.  In the case of pins 27, 28 and 29 are +12vdc and they are tied together, but also must be connected to pin 5 at some point is system.  I have seen where he as done that on other cards by drilling whole in card and connecting both sides together.  When he does that all connectors now have the same connection.

I spent several hours looking for the picture that shows both sides of the VIC card together where someone had labeled all the signals on both sides of the card connectors. I know it's in the forum as I just saw it again within the last month I just do not remember where.

Dan,

After more research I modified Pin 9 connections in reply 86 above to show what I found. Change are

DB9 pin6 goes BP22   Gate (A)           
DB9 pin7 goes BP1   Analog Input (J)   
DB9 pin8 goes BP24 Alternate Analog Input (J)
DB9 pin9 goes BP20 and 21 and multiple other connections (GND)

 I decided to look at VIC board connection that DB 9 connect to.  I then looked at what should be the signal on that connector on VIC board.
Pin 8 at first look strange as it had the same function as pin 1 Signal (J) then I remembered reading that another 741 had be added to original board to provide another Signal interface from the gas processor I think.  In any case these both go to the same output and second could override first or replace it.  While pins 1 through 4 show being connected in sketch to 14,15,16 and 17 there are on traces to those pads on the VIC board on either side.

Dan I looked more at water level in cell and think I was wrong about it dropping below top of cells but I still think the dielectric changes from pure water to a smaller value as gas levels of O2 and H2 increases in the water. This may be why important to keep gas pressure on the cell.  Like carbonation in beer and soda stays in liquid until opened.  I am also wondering if the 11th cell could be used to measure the dielectric level is reached kind using capacitor tube to determine how full a tank is? 

Still trying to figure how things are set and what to check to go on to next step in conditioning the cell.

yes i agree

we can note the nano bubble saturation is a key point

separately we can consider Stephen Meyer use a middle electrode to measure, Joe Cell use a middle cell to make resistance to cause a 90" effect to make voltage do work.  as with out is voltage goes through not doing work.

Skills of the art are in the details , there are several embodiments but knowing all of some of them sure helps to see for tuning purposes or to actually get a result. 

 Currently I have made the impedance matching circuit and we have made some 0vc  quartz barrier cells ,

I feel is it important to show or make that measurement circuit pcb that
would connect to 11 cell to measure dielectric level changes in type of water or bubble density.

Can you make post such a circuit? draft pcb?

DD

Dan,

I was looking at articles to see if I could find how to calculate the dielectric value that Stan is using and found an MIT article that was very helpful.  Interesting one of things it explained was parallel levels of dielectric are formed in fluids when a charge is built up on the plates (cell walls) and that you can calculate the new energy value using the formulas for capacitors in parallel with different dielectric values.  I guess we do not really need to do as Stan has told us what to use for this value 78.54.

I was trying to estimate how much capacitance would change from water to water with Stan's value.  In think I came up with a value around 60pF but I am not sure now it is important as 78.54 is in the range of water types that Stan's says the system can handle. 

Before even being to design a method to use another cell to check cell state I would need a working cell and even then I do not have the knowledge needed to do it.  While I can build things I have never been a circuit designer.

I made a couple of changes to my boards.  To give me finer control of frequency I changed the dial pot on the Phase Lock Circuit (K21) to a trim pot and moved LEDs to front panel.  This also gave me slightly more range as well as I can now get above 10khz.  This turns out to be helpful in finding and setting the resonant points.
 
Other change was to put additional capacitors on both 5vdc and 10vdc power feeds to boards.  I did this as I was seeing large spikes in the analog signal that also blend over in digital when they are merged across the Primary coil.  The spikes also caused both signals to jump around which has mostly stopped. I have also ordered a better DC power supply.

Pictures below are after making these changes which both helped a lot.  Part of this testing was to see the effect of the changes and I was also trying to see how the signals changed with frequency.  In these pictures I have also switched the scope probes to be AC coupled.

Pictures P1-p2 show the capacitor being charged P1 is around 2K and P2 3K.  P3 is approx. 4k and zoomed in to Half on one gate pulse.

P4 is in sync at 7.333khz.  In this picture CH1 is on input to primary and you can see analog pulse out of L1 into cell being inside of the single Digital pulses on primary inputs.  Note: when I switch CH1 to L2 input to cell board loses sync (so scope effects readings). Additional note.  The 2 lower signals is more like what I am seeing when I use the differential probe.

Picture P5 is one gage pulse with signals in sync and P6 show both signals when you zoom way in.

Yellow is CH1 on side L2 side or Digital input to Primary, Blue is CH2 all on analog side L1 and Purple is the Math function of scope A-B where CH1 is A and CH2 is B.

One of the reasons of doing this series of tests was to give me a new baseline with cleaned up signals.  I was also was watching changes to differential signal as my new differential probe arrived today.  While I played with new probe after it arrive not ready to post results yet. I will do that in another post.  It does provide a must cleaner signal to scope.

One note you do lose the sync information in P6 with the differential probe.  But with the cleaner signals I am finding the sync light on K21 is working.

Note:  All these tests where done with the same gain and offset values which were both just set above what I think are the minimum values to keep changes to the system to be just frequency in this case.  I will note that in the past I have see a resonant point at lower frequency with a higher offset.  I have read that this may be due to more energy in the harmonics.

I purchased a MIcsig DP2003 High Voltage Differential Probe (Approx. $240).   It has 2 ranges 560V(200x) and 5600V(200x) as I want to be able to check cells with higher.  The have another model the Micsig DP1003 with 50x/500x up to 1300V would have been a better match to my O-scope as it has a 50x range. The one I purchased works great, but the voltage displayed is low by a factor of 2.  When I was looking for probe, I saw reviews that said O-scope would just to range of probes or you could download new ranges, however, that did not work for my older scope.  I will try to make note of this when I post scope pictures, so people know value for it on screen is incorrect.

As the differential probed does not use the system ground it give a true reading on the voltage across the interface to the cell and very clean signal as all the common mode noise is removed.  In screen shots I set the probes to show the pulses up to match the signal going into primary coil which I am using as frequency reference, you can do this by either moving the probes or using invert function of scope. This is for display purpose only as the only signal the cell sees it the one on cell interface.

The pictures below show my next series of test. I repeated the above testing but added a few more tests points at I wanted to capture points where the signal made a change.   Input analog signal set to minimum gain and offset. Analog frequency and gate is approximately 41hz and gate has 50% duty cycle. Only the frequency was changed pictures show the digital input to primary in yellow on CH1 which I used to set frequency and provide a reference signal for the CH2 blue which is from the differential probe on the cell interface (In this case a capacitor and resistors to provide load, no cells so sync reading will be off from complete system).
NOTE: The differential probe reading on scope is low by a factor of times 2 as probe scale does match scopes.

Goal is to see how the differential signal changes as frequency changes.  In most case the table show the signal zoomed in on one digital pulse in the left table cell and the right show same signal zoomed out so you can see either complete gate pulse or multiple pulses with gates shown.  Couple of exceptions P1 and P24 are in the first row of one table and last few rows of second table show a few special items.  Dan P24 is close to the signal in the YouTube videos you recommended I look at to see what resonance signal looks like.

The shape of the signal on the cell changes with frequency as expected.  It ramps up as the capacitor charges, but shape of ramp varies depending on the phasing of the digital and analog inputs.  The zoomed signal shows that the number of pulses in each digital pulse varies with frequency in pictures below they varies from a high of 6 at 700hz to 1 at 11khz. The position of the pulses also changes which I believe also effects the shape of each Gate Pulse.  You can see this it the second picture in each row.
In some case you can see the charge of the capacitor ramp up then level off for the rest of the gate pulse.  At select points the ramp is a straight slope P23 but getting that is very touchy and usually happen just before signal is in resonance.  Usually shortly before that happens there is sag in the startup ramp see P23.

When the signal is resonance the differential signal is a straight line P20 and P21.  Also, at 5khz P14 and P15 while not complete zero the differential signal is flat with no ramp up charge.

P18 and P19 show what happens when I slightly increased frequency above 5khz where the output signal was flat.  Look closely at these 2 pictures in P18 you can see the input frequency jumping around and in P19 where I change it slightly input frequency levels off, but you can see a ramp in top of blue signal.

Ronnie has stated you do not want to be in exact resonance but slight off, I wonder it the point where you have the straight slope could be the point he is talking about (P13 and P22).  I also wonder is you are at point where the signal ramps up then levels off would like they charge you can get on the cells, see P23 it show the leveling off that I am talking about.  This happens at several other points as frequency increases.

While I do not show it here, I did do a quick check to we what would happen if changed offset.  Did this test at 5khz. To see this, I turned DC coupling on both scope channels, and moved CH1 to analog input to primary and put scope sync on CH2 as it had a nice clean pulse.  By doing this I was able to see both the analog input and differential output change.  The levels on both stayed in sync and moved the same amount on the scope.  I plan on doing more testing on to very nothing else changes, but this is what I expected to happen.
 
While this is what I expect the signals should look like the values I am getting are for my test setup and I expect they will be different for an operational system.  At this point I am still trying to understand what the controls do. 

Nice to see some cleaner signals etc, but we should all note  we  must stay under 10kz in my opinion
Stan did mention this i will try to find the reference.
invite comments on that note that capacitance and smoothing can be gain in the cell design rather than circuit
so becareful not to over engineer the circuit when no cell attached
Dan

Understand and I agree which is why I added caution about this been a test configuration.  Ronnie repeated mentions you need to design to cells.  The high frequency came because the trim pot has more range.  I know my system coils are not set up properly but did not want to make changes until I could see the results of the those changes.  I think with the cleaner signals I should be able to do that now.  One thing I did not point out is in some of my earlier testing I did see solid resonant lock at lower frequencies with higher offsets.  Note:  11khz is at the top end of the range of Stan's circuit after that you lose all signals.

Also before I start to balance chokes I wanted a better idea of what is a good figure for the capacitance of the cells.  One of the reason I was looking at dielectric values and trying to understand how they change as cell is charged.

I also expect that once set frequency will not be changed often as the control for this in on a pot on the Vic board not on the front panel.

My next step is very that signal shape does not change when you set the frequency and change the offset. I will do this at several points. I have already did that for 5khz as I mentioned above so I believe will also be true at other points but I will do tests to verify.

After those test I plan on doing more test on changing number turns on choke just to see what that does to signal.  Will all change gape again to see what it does to signal.  Before all I did was measure the H change of coils.

Dan I have been looking at things from Ronnie's post in this thread .

"Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« on October 22nd, 2016, 04:13 AM »Last edited on October 23rd, 2016, 05:58 PM

He talks in the first few posts about how resonance should be designed to occur when cell is empty of water and it should occur around 11 volts. Several post later he talks about how the coils should be set to create a signal that is out of phase.  Phasing is one of things I am trying to understand and figure out how to test.  He also states people are looking at frequency doubling wrong as it should only occur after resonance.  He even talks about changing cells capacitance when using Fifo;ar-warp chokes as way to balance system when using this method.

I think I need to read this thread again as I have a better understanding of what he was trying to tell us.

Just finished rereading by condensed version of "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works". I get something out it every time I read it in part because I not understand better what they are saying.  In this case the things Ronnie says about tuning were very helpful as I am the process of trying to understand the steps to do that.  One of the things that has been bothering me was the 1.23V differential he said was need across the cell to keep water polarized.  I had remembered value but forgot that it was the DC offset which is always applied to cell anytime power is on.  So when cell is turn off the offset is still there (cell can be off buy power on).  This offset sets the voltage that keeps the charge on the plates balance 2+ H ions to 1- O ion.   I was trying to figure out how to measure this when power to cell was increasing but it does not apply then.

There is discussion in this thread on turns ratio, adjusting phase angle, what gap does, and that they need to tuned to get max power out of the system.  Bad new is changing one effects others so it a balancing act.  While I knew that my test system was different that operating system as I am using a capacitor and not a water cell, Ronnie points out that the systems operate differently before and after resonance.  He says we have a dead short with water in cell that blocks the coils from fully interacting before resonance.  After resonance the short is removed and only then do they interact and we get frequency doubling.  Until then we are using amp leakage to create gas and when there is enough gas under then we get resonance.   Note:  I have posted my condensed version of this thread in a PDF document and it is still 110 pages long.  Post above is actually out that document. It has links back to original thread imbedded.

I do plan to continue with my current testing a am continuing to learn more about the system and obtaining a better understanding of what happen when I make a change.

One thing he did method briefly it is better to do initial turning in air manually.  By that he means without using the phase lock circuit.  I can see why in my testing once you get close to a phase lock it is hard to make a frequency change.  (See reference below)

Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #444, on November 4th, 2016, 06:14 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on November 4th, 2016, 06:03 PM
I would call it a variable in our math, aka we need to know theses as even frequency play's a BIG roll on the capacitance.

~Russ
Exactly, Now you and others wanted to know how to tune the system.
What I am about to say and show is for manual tuning only, with no feedback coil or phase lock loop device.
I have stated many times you have to start out at a couple volts and work your way up a couple volts at a time while tuning until you reach full voltage.
What I am about to show everyone is how to use a fixed L  to tune into a variable C It is all done by frequency.

 

Earl can you  post pdf here you mention above

To Help others understand


Stan Meyers WATERFUEL- Cell

Other helpful terms
Nano bubble fuel cell
Voltrolysis  cell