Quote from evostars on August 24th, 2017, 03:09 AM

I fail to see how L1 and L2 can be one and the same switch

I think it has to be because the back EMF stored in the cap is of such high voltage you cannot switch it by itself.  You have to have current to keep it at bay.  I could be wrong, but I've been experimenting with the circuit I recently posted and it does seem to behave as Nelson suggests.  I haven't tried tuning the L3 portion yet, just watching the signals from L1 and L2 to see how they mix.  Pretty much impossible to get a read on the voltage phase angle without a differential probe, but I have been able to look at the current and see some effects that lead me to believe Nelson is telling us the straight scope.

Later today I'll connect an external trigger on my scope and see if I can narrow in on what is actually going on here.  Pretty tough to see things with so much ringing--the trigger is all over the map.

mayb you can slow the process down too a low frequency low duty cycle so the ringing gets less.

I also have trouble to see what is happening with all the ringing

So here's a scopeshot with the external trigger connected (which BTW, makes this so much easier).

The top yellow trace is voltage connected across L1.  Peak-to-peak in excess of 275 volts with only a 9 volt 170mA input.

The purple lower trace is a current probe connected inline with L2.  Not sure yet I am getting the current magnification as defined by the CARC.  Think I'm close though.


The switch is flipping at 47kHz with 40% duty cycle.  The back EMF cap is a big high voltage motha, 50uF 900 volt.  The inline cap is a high volt 100nF.  Both are poly.

When the circuit is first powered, the big cap takes about five seconds to come to full charge and remains charged as it should according to Nelson.

Frequency and duty cycle are both extremely critical with this circuit.  The waveforms will jump all over the place if you change these two parameters the slightest bit.

When a resistive load is placed across L3, the ringing on L1 almost goes completely away.


New problem.  I can't increase input voltage above about 10.5 volts without getting arcing across the heatsinks of my Universal Switch.  It's pretty impressive how the back EMF can drive up the voltage so much.  How to deal with this voltage is going to take some thinking.

Great work Matt! Thx for sharing.

The L1 yellow ringing, its when the 40% duty cycle is off. Correct?

You collect the back emf from this L1 coil, but, its not a single back emf spike, it is ringing.
The ringing is positive and negative, so do you collect all the energy? or only half wave? (one or 2 diodes to the cap).

It seems a resistive load on L3 acts like a damper. So the current isnt big enough, strong enough or the resistance is to high, destroying the resonance.

The purple current, also looks like its at half the resonant frequency. So, probably tune it around 100khz and it will ring even bigger. producing a stronger output on L3.

Here is my Idea: we now use a L1 bifilar pancake coil with low inductance right? So it saturates quickly and gives a minimum back emf spark. I suggested a ferrite coating on the coil. But what if we use a "solenoid form" bifilar coil, with the diameter of the hole? And place it on top of L2, across the hole?  Again, with ferrite paste on L1.

Since L1 is about the magnetic field, and the back emf produced, it should work better in solenoid form. its also easier to build. a ferrite (radio frequency Mn Zn Fe) core, with a bifilar wound coil around it, the size of the hole diameter of L2, Should produce a stronger magnetic field, a stronger back EMF. And the collapsing field is placed in the center of the L2 coil, supporting the field of L2

https://www.labshop.nl/Webwinkel-Product-127884983/Magnetiet-grof-1-Kg.html

I found magnetite I think I could use this instead of ferrite, since the frequencies are fairly low. Still not sure how this works at 200khz

hmm... seems the fine grinded stuff doesnt work:
http://www.energeticforum.com/191769-post4639.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/191767-post4638.html

it needs to be sand...

Quote from evostars on August 25th, 2017, 02:25 AM

The L1 yellow ringing, its when the 40% duty cycle is off. Correct?

Correct.

Quote from evostars on August 25th, 2017, 02:25 AM

You collect the back emf from this L1 coil, but, its not a single back emf spike, it is ringing.
The ringing is positive and negative, so do you collect all the energy? or only half wave? (one or 2 diodes to the cap).

It is a single negative going spike through a single high speed rectifier diode.  What happens though is the charge capacitor presents a particular kind of impedance that creates a back MMF of its own.  When this happens, the diode switches off and the original back EMF rebounds.  If instead of a rectifier diode and capacitor, a filament lamp is used to collect/see the back EMF, clearly you see the strong negative spike.

From my understanding of wave propagation, what happens is the capacitor begins to charge and when it does, that end of the transmission line becomes an open circuit; this creates the condition for the wave to invert and bounce back, which is exactly what you see on the scope.  Only when the capacitor is completely discharged do you see the single negative spike.  Once it begins to charge, then you see the ringing.

Quote from evostars on August 25th, 2017, 02:25 AM

It seems a resistive load on L3 acts like a damper. So the current isnt big enough, strong enough or the resistance is to high, destroying the resonance.

There shouldn't be any resonance on L3 until I introduce a parallel capacitor which I have not done yet.  Still looking at how L1 magnetic and L2 dielectric attempt to mix.

Quote from evostars on August 25th, 2017, 02:25 AM

The purple current, also looks like its at half the resonant frequency. So, probably tune it around 100khz and it will ring even bigger. producing a stronger output on L3.

Again, there is no resonance taking place here.  The size cap I used between C1 and L2 looks to be a harmonic of the fundamental pulsing frequency which should begin to create the magnified current we are looking for.

Tuning the pulse frequency is out of the question.  The pulse on-time is critical to how big a magnetic field you want to build and how large will be the back EMF released when the switch is opened.  The only tuning that can be done is finding the correct size capacitor that will allow the CARC to oscillate at the fundamental pulse frequency.

I have played with the pulse frequency and duty cycle for hours.  My goal was to find a frequency where I could set the duty cycle at 50%.  This is very difficult to do.  Things get real touchy near 50%.  The things that matter are:

Input voltage
Input current draw
Pulse frequency
Duty cycle
C2 size

I haven't even begun looking at coil displacement yet.  Right now all three of my PCB bifilar coils are separated equally about 4mm.

Quote from evostars on August 25th, 2017, 02:25 AM

Here is my Idea: we now use a L1 bifilar pancake coil with low inductance right? So it saturates quickly and gives a minimum back emf spark. I suggested a ferrite coating on the coil. But what if we use a "solenoid form" bifilar coil, with the diameter of the hole? And place it on top of L2, across the hole?  Again, with ferrite paste on L1.

L1 has no core, so saturation is basically off the table.  I can pump in as much current as I want.   At just 1 amp the back EMF is so high I can't deal with it anymore.

Quote from evostars on August 25th, 2017, 02:25 AM

Since L1 is about the magnetic field, and the back emf produced, it should work better in solenoid form. its also easier to build. a ferrite (radio frequency Mn Zn Fe) core, with a bifilar wound coil around it, the size of the hole diameter of L2, Should produce a stronger magnetic field, a stronger back EMF. And the collapsing field is placed in the center of the L2 coil, supporting the field of L2

I have placed large ceramic ring magnets on these PCB bifilar coils while in operation and see not the slightest changes in the waveforms.  These magnets should also act as a core of such, but it doesn't change anything.  I'm not convinced at this time that adding any sort of ferrite paste to the coils is going to be helpful.

Right now I'm pretty certain if you want a stronger magnetic field, throw more current at the coil.  You do this by increasing the duty cycle and/or lowering the frequency.  Again, these air-core pancake coils will take all the current you want to give to them up to some threshold where they become hot and begin to burn the traces off.

I need to process all you have shared Matt, it needs some time,

but let me say this, If the capacitor is becoming part of the L1 resonant ringing, why not place a diode in between it, to kill the ringing?

In your diagram the the diode is placed at the ground connection, not at the switch. but the back emf is at the switch (where it will spark) so if the back emf is directed into the cap via a diode, you not only prevent the capacitor from being part of a resonant circuit, it also makes you able to switch higher voltages, as you keep the back emf away from the switch.

that part about the coil not saturating, being an air core, is not what I saw. I saw a maximum back emf, but I now realise this is probably due to the protection diode in the igbt kicking in, sucking away the back emf. So i need to retest with a protection diode free transistor.
onbthe other hand i still want a high inductance coil to produce back emf.

a "slow" saturated ferrite magnet, might not be the right test material. still not sure about it. i do believe a layer of non magnetised ferrite would add inductance, and enhance the back emf

maybe i dont fully understand it yet. ill think it over.

again thx for sharing, its good to get feedback.

base gets pulse, L1 produces magnetic field.
pulse stops transistor closes, L1 produces back emf.

back emf  is put into the capacitor at the emitter, via the diode.

base gets pulsed again. coil now sees a bigger negative, from the charged capacitor.

 

A Joule thief circuit creates short pulses, that opens and closes a transistor very fast.

The joule thief can be tuned to a frequency of lets say 50khz.

Normally the joule thief is fed by a DC current.

But what if we feed it with pulsed dc, also at 50Khz. And at the same time use this same pulsed dc to create back emf via coil L1

This back emf is stored into a capacitor, that is discharged via a second coil by a joulethief pulse at the of the next DC current pulse.


Ill. make a new topic for this.
topic link

current... what is it?
is creates a magnetic field.

but if we want to show it on a scope, isnt the scope not displaying a voltage? so the to display it we transform the current into a voltage so we can display it. but then we are looking not at current, but current transformed into a voltage to make it visible.

so what is current? can we see it observe it directly?
Current is visible through the work it does. turning a engine and giving light in a lamp.

but... what is it? since i left the electron particle bullsh@t and started thinking in fields, I also more or less left the idea of current behind me.

still I wonder... what is current? can we observe it directly?

A scope can show a 230V sine representing voltage. but it can be a 1A current or .1A or 16A. the sine is the same...

if we use a wall socket (2 lines... one with a sine wave, one neutra) the neutral also shows the sine wave. so whats the difference?

I thought if the power (light bulb)is off, i can grab the neutral. but then I get shocked. but... its the neutral! so there is still power in the neutral? what the...???

Haha!   I knew taking a little break from things would result in some good questions.

For starters, there are three ways I'm aware of for measuring current:
   Ohms's Law via a resistor
   A current sense transformer or CT as the electrical engineers call it
   A hall effect sensor as is used for precision digital oscilloscope current probes

The CT is only effective if the current is alternating in polarity.

The resistor is something we need to look at more closely.  How does a voltage drop across a resistor give us an accurate indication of the current present?

I guess we would first need to understand what truly is a resistor.  How does it impede?  What is it impeding?

Mr. Tesla used the word "current" often, but I highly suspect we use the same word much differently today.  Edward Leedskalnin brought us the phrase "Magnetic Current", which I think is much more accurate.

We have two fields:  Dielectric & Magnetic.  Dielectric is divergence; magnetic is curl.  A dielectric field wants to diverge, spread out, but in doing so it causes curl.  Curl is the field that wants to wrap itself back to where it came from, the antithesis of divergence.  It's the natural impedance created when divergence wants to expand infinitely.  Curl, the magnetic field is what keeps divergence, the dielectric field, in check.

So if I had to guess, I'd say a resistor is a device that prevents divergence--billions of tiny little coils almost like filter paper.  These little coils create tiny magnetic fields that impede the divergence, impede the dielectric field.  This is why we see a voltage drop across the resistor.  And since they are tiny little coils, the larger the dielectric gradient across the resistor, the stronger magnetic field these billions of little coils produce.  It just so happens this effect appears linear and was given a name, Ohm's Law.

So then current is the something that slows or stops the dielectric field from expanding out to where it is again neutral.  No current, no limit on the expansion/divergence.  When there is current, then we know a magnetic field is present and is actively preventing the dielectric field from going where it wants to go.  A magnetic field is the only thing able to slow or stop a dielectric field.  So now think about this...

How does a dielectric field become stored or stopped within a capacitor?  No magnetic field in there you say?  I'll bet you there is--sure wish I could prove it though.  What I can say for sure is when you short the capacitor, that magnetic field escapes and no longer contains the dielectric field which must continue to diverge as it should.

I really think a change in perspective about all this stuff would be very helpful.  Too bad folks are afraid to try something different and see where it goes.   Wimps.   :scared:

curl and divergence.

something like a rubberband that is twisted.
the amount of turns is current.
the length is voltage.
static electricity is like an untwisted rubberband. how can we add twists (current) to it? by unrolling ring vortecis?

rubberbands between capacitor plates would be twisted, and untwist when shortcut? that also would suggest 2 turn directions. something that i have seen with hurricane harveys goes16 sattalite images. there can be 2 turn directions seen. one clockwise one counterclockwise, in the same area. i think these are 2 air layers one high one low one centripetal one centrifugal.

and the ring torroid can be cut into  a single rubberband.

like the rubberband propeller. if you wind it up it gains power.

tubes of force,  where the tubes are twisted

hmm eather you are so energetic

A air ring vortex moves from right to left, produces a tail on the right side.
The electrical ring vortex produced by a pulsed with back emf resonant bifilar pancake coil, might do the reverse, it might be fed by the tail instead of loosing its tail.

The tail is the magnetic field from the first pulsed coil, that is collapsing into the ring vortex.
at the same time it creates the back emf that is stored in a capacitor, to be discharged into the second coil.

The second coil is also a bifilar panacke coil.
having inductance, it resonates with the magnetic field of the pulsed first coil.
but by also havinf capacitance, it resonates with the dielectric back emf from the capacitor.
when these to resonances are in the right relationship, the produce power.

this power is picked up by the tuned third resonant coil, that creates a powerfull output.

so there are 2 kinds of resonance posible with a bifilar coil.

magnetic resonance from a pulsed current parallel coil, creating a magnetic field

dielectric resonance from a directly back emf pulsed coil. creating a ring vortex

both separate resonances dont have real power because real power comes from combining current with voltage.

so if we combine both forms of resonance we create power.

since the pulsed current coil also produces the back emf, the output is higher than yhe input

2 kinds of resonance both show up as a sine wave. do not add up(power) if they are in phase, but do(create power) if they are out of phase...

might this be due to the resonance of the back emf is spinning in the other direction?
like a positron?

A sine wave is a dead giveaway of rotation.  Counter phase rotation leads to the creation of an "electron", otherwise known as the destruction or consumption of energy.

Think of two fast moving troughs of water with a divider between them.  Each trough of water has opposite flow.  When the divider is pulled out, you will see little swirls of water as the opposite flows clash with each other at what was a boundary, that's your unicorn/electron.  Pressure mediation, curl, magnetism, places of high activity.  All matter is created from fields and where we have a high concentration of very active fields, scientists call that a particle having a negative charge.  It's not a particle at all.  It's actually a voidance if you look at it closely.  The water will create a little whirlpool or depression and expel the water in that position.  Since they are not able to explain that, they instead tell us it has a negative charge.  Makes a lot more sense to know that position is actually a place where the Aether is basically missing or less dense than its surroundings.

People will label you a nutcase if you don't speak their language and accept their nonsense.  Go figure.

i love being a nutcase. its alot of fun. :hillbilly:
normal is boring.
 :cheerleader:

finaly i found a alternating pulse circuit.

https://youtu.be/pFbVlhFQhN0

I have had many ideas wher i needed this.

like alternate pulsing 2 tesla coils, both into resonance.
line the top ends up (so the outsides are pulsed).

the center where the coils line up, will have a thrird coil around it, this one will create output from the strong alternating dielectric field inside it from both tesla coils

if a back emf pulse can create a resonant sine wave of equal amplitude, than that by itself represents a big gain in energy.
or not?
a 100V back emf pulse repeated at the resonant frequency, creating a 100V sine wave.
 Is it the small pushes against a swing that accumulate in the swing, making it swing bigger over time? but if the swing is stopped, al the accumulated pushes are released at once?

so its a time factor? being smart in the use of time?

the back emf pulse comes after the magnetic pulse that created it.
so to use time, its about storing the back emf into a capacitor and release it again at the next magnetic (current) pulse. to enlarge the total voltage at that point in time, and so produce a larger magnetic field...

Quote from evostars on September 7th, 2017, 11:40 AM

so its a time factor? being smart in the use of time?

the back emf pulse comes after the magnetic pulse that created it.
so to use time, its about storing the back emf into a capacitor and release it again at the next magnetic (current) pulse. to enlarge the total voltage at that point in time, and so produce a larger magnetic field...

I think you're seeing what I have been pondering for quite a long time (pun intended).

I have proven to my satisfaction that you can energize a coil with current, create a magnetic field, release the current and collect or utilized the back EMF with near zero losses.  So you get all the energy back you put into the system.  Big deal?   Well maybe, because while you were doing this, you did produce a magnetic field essentially for free.  As long as you don't disrupt this magnetic field, you also don't disrupt the back EMF.  So the trick is two parts.  You use time to your advantage AND you use the magnetic field, don't waste it.  This is where I think resonance comes into play, because if you use the magnetic field properly; at the correct moment, you not only avoid disrupting it, you can actually enhance it.  If you strengthen it, then you also strengthen the back EMF.

Think of things somewhat the way the financial system works.  You borrow money (energy) to make more money (more energy).  This money needs to be constantly kept in motion, moving forward in such a manner where you never pay part of it back until you have put it to work.  You keep pushing the gains forward.  This financial concept aligns nicely with my concept of energy acceleration.  It's the same game the suits play everyday.  We just need to map this concept into an electrical system.  Time (or the effect of the Tempic field) is what allows it to work.  You put off paying back everything you borrowed indefinitely.  Just like a corporation does.

It's all an orchestra of energy storage and transfer based on how long our coils take to store a chunk of energy.  Their capacity should be known or at least their usable range of capacity.  We then move energy out of the coil, place it into a capacitor and begin a new cycle.  Somewhere in this new cycle we inject the energy we just stored in the capacitor into a separate coil physically near the first coil.  If we inject at the correct moment and for the correct duration, the magnetic field of the first coil climbs even higher.  These cycles repeat to a point where we must add a third coil to drain off a portion of this accumulated energy.  This gets a little tricky because here the back EMF from the load CAN disrupt everything we have setup in the first two coils, so we must add capacitance to adjust when the back EMF collides with the resonance.  A simple matter of constructive or destructive interference; we prefer constructive.

Seems simple, but the coils many times act as though they have a mind of their own.  We have to listen to them and let them guide us.

enhancing the magnetic field produces a stronger back emf.


a stronger back emf! i disdnt realise that one before!

in a perfect setup, each back emf that enhances the next magnetic field produces an even stronger back emf that produces an even stronger magnetic field in the next cycle and on and on and on.

being a resonant system the separate output coil resonates with this ever building   magnetic field, and can be tapped off. into a large capacitor bank.

if that bank is properly filled, it keeps being filled, and we can tap out the dc power from it.

I had a pretty clear picture in my head aboit this concept, but I didnt realise yet, that not only the magnetic field becomes stronger, but also the back emf becomes stronger.

thanks Matt :clap:

At some point the energy being stored in the capacitor dwarfs that of the input power to the system.  That's where you tap a small portion of it for feedback.  It might take a few hundred thousand cycles for this to happen, but in our sense of timeframe it happens pretty quick.

The whole trick is to ensure we always augment the magnetic field; never collide with or impede it.

Steinmetz wrote, to build a magnetic field, a coil consumes voltage.

we provide additional voltage by discharging the back emf stored in the capacitor.

its not only recycling. its enhancing...

I made a video recording today, with all the findings and conclusions I made so far.
Its more than i thought. 20min (not covering all) with only speech.
I also want to add experiments to show what i did.

I concluded its way to much info for 1 video. It would be an information overload.

So to make it more understandable, i want to make several smaller video recordings, showing the separate results.

and maybe a bigger picture video, to tie it all together.

hopefully it will inspire more people.