i found that double bifilar rod that created the back emf into the resonant coil.

the primary pulsed coil is spaced wide. the secondary underneath has much more windings.

a coil pulsed with the back emf of a secondary can get another coil into resonamce as i today again have seen.

the 500V pp resonant sine (parallel tuned coil 123khz) normally produces a strong magnetic field. but now the compass does not point inwards. it doesnt move at all.

to me this means the back emf is pure dielectric energy. the bifilar coil can interact with this energy due to its large capacitance. So in this case the coil acts 100% like a capacitor. only dielectric energy flows between the windings, without any magnetic component.

now the bifilar coil has become a capacitor.

the question Nelson asked, what is different?

if this is a capacitor, could it work as a plate? as he suggested. what happens in another coil next to it? will it act as another plate. I assume the coil would need to be tuned to the same resonant frequency.

but what then? is there a displacement current inbetween both coils? can we tap into that?

Normally the current draw is big with the tuned coil. is that still so now i use the back emf and it has no magnetic field at resonance

in reply of the last post:  the current is still high when using back emf. pretty logical as i use a magnetic field to generate back emf spikes.

now for more results:

there seem to be 2 kinds of resonant sine waves. one based on the magnetic field (coil is pulsed) (compass needle is strongly attracted to the center at resonance)

the other resonance is based on the dielectric field produced by the back emf of the pulsed coil. (this resonance does not produce a swing on the compass needle)

I compared both resonant sine waves (dielectric and magnetic) seperatly in
relation to the square wave that creates it.

there is a phase lag of 3/4 (or 1/4) phase between the dielectric and magnetic resonant sine waves.

So if i use the back emf from the magnetic pulse, i need to store it into a capacitor for 3/4 phase and then discharge it into the already magnetic resonant coil.

but... how to time this?

my igbt has a back emf protection diode so... that maybe could be used for switching the capacitor into the magnetic resonant coil. but how to time this properly at 166khz?

the high inductance magnetic coil producing the big back emf, should be switched by something without a protection diode, to capture al the back emf into the capacitor.
again the switching. the timing is different as the resonant magnetic sine is timed differnet in relation to the dielectric resonance.

the capacitor needs proper switching. first connect to the magnetic coil capture the back emf. a diode can keep the back emf stored in the cap while conmected to the coil.

then the coil has to connect to the already magnetic resonant middle coil. at the right time at 3/4 phase of the magnetic rrsonamt sine wave phase.

that switch needs to switch back fast in 1/4 phase to be able to capture the next back emf...

this all at a really fine tuned 166khz. the Q is pretty high.

so the frequency of both switches is the same. only the phase lag between switching should be able to be controlled.

Help! does anybody know how to do this?
or do i really need a expensive dual channel phase generator? there must be an easy trick ...

Please PM me if you have a tip on this.
thanks

at what phase angle should the back emf charged capacitor, be discharged into the already resonant coil (resonant from the pulsed coil creating back emf)

if the parallel tuned coil has resonance, would there be an exchange of field energy between the magnetic field and the dielectric field?

 what do we see on the scope? a sine. but is the sine representative of the maximum of the magnetic field or the maximum of the dielectric field energy?

if it is magnetic, than the dielectric energy would be max if the sine amplitude is zero. and vice versa.

but in classic resonance there is a quarter phase lag and lead producing power. current and voltage are 90 degrees separated.

if i remember correct voltage comes first to a max Then current comes to a max.
with a sine wave.

but now we work with square waves.

the voltage is max
the current climbs to max (builds up magnetic field)
then the voltage goes low, current stops instantly, back emf spike releases magnetic field energy.

so to add the back emf into the resonant sine, it should be stored into a cap during the off cycle of the square wave, and released
....?

I simply admit I dont know. I have thought out so many things and have been wrong so many times...

experimenting wil show the correct answer.
but.. how? Matt Watts suggested phase lag due to creating distance between the pulsed coil and the resonant coil.

that could be possible but this seems to have its restrictions. but it is worth a try.

when i pulse one bifilar pancake coil and stack another bifi pancake coil on top i can bring it into resonance if the right pulse frequency is tuned in.

when i place compass on the resonant coil the needle points inwards to the center of the coil.

is this due to the resonant coil?
or due to the pulsed coil?

it is strongest at the resonant frequency but the needle also turns towards the center at harmonic frequencies.
if it was the pulsed coil (it doesnt resonate it shows the square wave) the compass should point inwards at random frequencies.

So I do believe the resonant coil is responsible for turning the needle.

when i tune the res frequency down with a parallel capacitor over the resonant bifilar pancake coil, with the right size of capacitor, the voltage rise is much bigger and the magnetic field is stronger (compass needle is not only pointing inwards but is drawing down to the center, and acts at a larger distance).

why do I share this?
because when feed that same resonant  coil with back EMF it still shows the resonant sine voltage rise. but No deviation of the compass needle.

maybe this should be in a video. its damn interesting.

video with:
*standard resonant coil with compass
*tuned resonant coil with stronger field
*same tuned coil fed with back emf, compass not showing deviation.
and maybe the pulsed coil by itself with a compass to see if it produces a deviation

The back EMF of the pulsed bifilar coil, isnt a single pulse but a fading sine, so, a single diode would not pass all energy into a capacitor. the diode is needed to keep the back emf in the capacitor. and the pulse energy out of the capacitor.

So there still could be use for the other half of the back emf energy? charge a battery?

I don't know if what I'm about to say is truly reflective of what is happening or not, it's just my observation...


If an oscillating coil creates a magnetic field that has an average flux change that is polarized, it will attract a compass needle.  If on the other hand the average flux change is neutral, it will not deflect a compass needed.

What does this mean?

To me it means the input signal is either unipolar or bipolar.  This is something we really don't have any choice over with an inductor having a magnetic core.  In such application, we must use bipolar or have a core gap, otherwise with a solid core we quickly get flux walking and single ended core saturation.   An un-cored pancake coil doesn't have this restriction--we can inject unipolar pulses one after another and by doing so the average flux polarity is always the same and will most definitely deflect a compass needle.


The other factor I suspect to be relevant is the phase angle between the voltage and current.  In a resonant situation where the phase angle is 90 degrees, it's unlikely this signal is unipolar--you can't get a tank circuit to resonate if it's anything but bipolar.  So if you truly have a resonant tank circuit and it appears to deflect a compass needle, how and why is this possible?   Is there something not obvious happening with the phase angle?  Say maybe the voltage aligns with the current on only positive peaks but seems to stay 90 degrees shifted on negative peaks.  Seems screwy to me, but if something like that is happening, it might be really hard to capture on the scope.

thank you for your input Matt
i will think this over.

one thing. is the resonant ... 90 degrees separated?

I observed is the resonant sine wave cant magnetise a ferrite rod. I cant step down the resonant voltage sine. it seems the phase angle has become zero.
zero phase would also mean zero impedance. leaving the wire resistance as only resistance. Just Like Tesla said in his patent 512340

$99 dollar dual signal gen ebay

to good to be true?

Coming from Hong Kong.  Mighty expensive shipping and that's if you're lucky enough to actually receive it.

You may want to check with Gunther and give his PGen a whirl.  If it doesn't do something you need, Gunther can fix the code so that it does.  He's also a lot closer to you than I am.  Send him a PM with some requirements and see what he can do for you.

free shipping. had no problems before with ordering from china. Pgen might be good.

but i think it must be easier.
nelson shows a signal gen into a 1:1 ring torroid. going into a transistor base.

in this series he shows the amazingly little amount of electronics to acomplish his goals. maybe he captures the back emf and releases it at the start of the pulse.

this makes sense because the magnetic field needs a voltage to consume when its building up. that voltage is supplied by the capacitor discharge


in this video Nelson uses the same circuit but he has exchanged his back emf coil for a pancake coil. the ring torroid can be seen. does it switch 2 things with one pulse?

https://youtu.be/8ytg_B9Vs60

what If I use the spike that shows up at the start of the square wave pulse, to discharge the capacitor (filled with back emf).
The spike is short in duration, and can open and close a switch (transistor) from the cap into the already resonant coil.

The cap can charge from the back emf via a diode, the spike at the start of the pulse is then used to switch the cap into the second coil, and shortly discharge.

hmm... the polarity is wrong...  the switch should only switch at the start of the pulse, not at the end of the pulse where the back emf is...

Nelson... how do you do this?
square wave into 1:1 ring toroid. ring toroid secondary gives a positive and a negative pulse (?). one is the start of the pulse the other the end of the pulse.
The square wave itself is controlling the current into the coil.  The spike on the other side of the coil is used to switch. the back emf of the toroid is not used, only the spike on.

Could this work???

Evo,

Take a look at this link and think about the concept the writer introduces as gorge.

He states this to be non-conservative, which is just what we are looking for.

My thinking of gorge is purely dielectric fields that can stretch from a capacitor plate to any other object(s) in the Universe.  We give the gorge some number to express its relative pressure level/strength.  Each capacitor plate has a gorge value, therefore there exists a differential between the two plates using his formula of:  G = (Q_UPPER - Q_LOWER) / 2

What I find so important in the document is no laws enforce a particular behavior.  Dielectric fields exist everywhere between all sorts of items, even capacitor plates.  Which means if we change the "charge" of each capacitor plate an equal amount, the gorge doesn't change at all.  The abstract term "charge" is conserved, but this doesn't say anything about the dielectric fields.  There is no restriction there.  This means we can manipulate a single plate or both plates and create scenarios where energy is shuttled at no cost.  It's here where we must think more carefully about the side-by-side bifilar pancake coils and the objects that are near them.

As said I will look at that Matt.

this seems a good supply for ferrite
ferrite rods

they provide free samples up to 10 pieces.

would be better to have the raw powder. maybe they can supply it also

Have you tried just holding chunks of ferrite next to the coil to see if things move in the intended direction?

I have two flat ferrite ribbon cable EFI suppressors and when I put them next to my coil, I see no change whatsoever in the behavior.

I was hoping to see something, because if I did, I might go looking for some larger ferrite ring magnets to play with.

Quote from Matt Watts on August 11th, 2017, 11:19 AM

Have you tried just holding chunks of ferrite next to the coil to see if things move in the intended direction?

I have two flat ferrite ribbon cable EFI suppressors and when I put them next to my coil, I see no change whatsoever in the behavior.

I was hoping to see something, because if I did, I might go looking for some larger ferrite ring magnets to play with.

I think the added ferrite is to be able to produce more back emf.  so not only add ferrite also increase the current/voltage?

With no core you can increase the duty cycle too, up to some point where the magnetic field strength no longer intensifies.  Once you add core material, this will change quite a bit I would expect.

To strengthen a magnetic field, you can increase the current and/or increase the number of turns, that's your only options.  Adding a core will focus the flux lines into a particular space.  The total magnetic field you generate won't actually get any stronger, it will just stay where you put it.

How this will effect your back EMF...?  I'm not certain.  Also not certain what you are trying to get the back EMF to actually do.

Quote from Matt Watts on August 11th, 2017, 11:51 AM

With no core you can increase the duty cycle too, up to some point where the magnetic field strength no longer intensifies.  Once you add core material, this will change quite a bit I would expect.

To strengthen a magnetic field, you can increase the current and/or increase the number of turns, that's your only options.  Adding a core will focus the flux lines into a particular space.  The total magnetic field you generate won't actually get any stronger, it will just stay where you put it.

How this will effect your back EMF...?  I'm not certain.  Also not certain what you are trying to get the back EMF to actually do.

adding ferrite to increase inductance.
more inductance would translate to a stronger magnetic field befor the coil saturates.
without ferrite the inductance is low, and the coil quickly saturates. this limits the production of back emf.

the back emf must be powerfull(high voltage) enough. to overcome the loss of the diode, and to fill the cap up with enough (back emf) energy.

I suspect we need to reach a treshold before we really see an effect (like a diode  needs a treshold voltage before we see it emitting light).

As can be seen in Nelsons vids, he used kV pulses. (another clue).

so Matt, Im just guessing. but my intuition says we need a big voltage.

More important Matt, do  you know at what phase angle we should inject/discharge the back emf filled capacitor into the already existent magnetic resonant sine, to see a increase in magnitude/output?

if a pulsed coil makes a pulsating magnetic vortex, building up the vortex, and collapsing in on itself. like a whirlpool sucking in ether at the south pole and pushing out ether at the north pole. the ether moves around the coil via these magnetic vortexes.

the resonant coil is then at the right phase angle pulsed with back emf energy from the capacitor discharge. creating a ring vortex resonance, inside the magnetic vortex resonance.

the ring vortex is a ether flow around the coil that is a closed loop, but the magnetic field is spinning in up stronger and stronger.

the collapse of the magnetic vortex gives a strong push/pull on the ring vortex spinning it up. but then the same back emf energy is used again to spin up the ring vortex. that is a double  use of the magnetic field energy.

if the ring vortex is strong enough a resonant (tuned) output coil can tap into it.

but .... what if we have 2 of those systems. alligned but some disgance between them.  one slightly faster than the other (detuned).

could we make an ether flow between both systems that moves faster through one of them? deforming the field into a pearshape? could this be the thrust factor of a gravity device? It would need high enough voltage to create a big enough ether flow.

In the beginning of my research I saw the connection between ufo drive tech and energy tech, both being the same tech, but used different. one uses the ether flow to create a ether flow field to create thrust. without inertia because ether is inertia related, but we bend it around.

the other etherflow used to create energy. energy is ether flow.

ether flows at resonance. a magnetic  field is an ether vortex.
a dielectric field is a ether field of twisted tension lines
a resonant dielectric coil is a ether ring toroid.

a pulsed coil can bring a second coil into resonance producing a sine wave.

the pulsed coil also produces a back emf that can create a resonant sine wave into a coil.

I suspect the two resonant sine waves are not in phase so they cant combine (directly) into one coil.

to see the phase relationship, i should bring 2 separate coils into resonance.  these 2 coils should be equal in  their resonant frequency. so they can be driven from one and the same primary pulsed coil.

when it shows how the phase angle is between the two coils, i could delay the back emf resonant coil by storing it in a capacitor and discharging it at a diffent phase angle.

in the end i can see how these two coils interact. (not necessary).

the result should make it possible to make one resonant coil from both sources. the pulse and the back emf combined into one resonant sine. (this should add up the voltages and give a higher energy level than the input)

back from a well deserved break. it did me good. got some distance from it all.

if I remeber correct, the pulsed coil uses 12v positive voltage to create a magnetic field. then when the circuit is opened, it creates a negative voltage spike, that can charge a capacitor, or that can bring another coil into resonance without the swing of the compass needle.

so in respect to the ground (zero) we start with a positive voltage, and we end up with a nagative voltage from the back emf.

so... if I store that back emf negative voltage in a cap, and discharge the cap into the resonant coil at the start of the next pulse,
that would be a out of phase resonance added up.

Since this is a resonant system it might work, as i produced a double voltage before  with out of phase resonant sine waves.

I need to check the phase relation with the experiment i wrote down in the previous post, and work out a system to delay the back emf discharge of the cap into the resonant coil.

Narrowed down to what I think at least needs to be tested.

C₁ is the main Back EMF storage cap.  When the switch closes, a portion of the stored potential is dumped through C₂ into L₂ as a sharp impulse.

The circuit seems too simple to be what Nelson is using, but it may be close enough to know what to do next.

Not quite what we want.  With only a single rectifier diode, L₁ rings way too much--C₁ won't charge like a resistive load.

Trying to figure out how to do this concept with a full wave bridge rectifier, but I'm not certain yet it's possible.  We need some way to share the switch.

well Matt I dont get it either.

so i will first do the test to see the phase relation ship. see if i can work out the logic a bit more.

i made this drawing. L1 is pulsed creating back emf(into cap), and resonance in L2.

the tuning cap of L2 is in series with S2, to inject the back emf at the right time.

I fail to see how L1 and L2 can be one and the same switch