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Quote from evostars on May 5th, 2017, 09:40 AM

stack other pancake coil and look to that like one capacitor exchanging charges between each plate  (two pancake coils )

dont know what he means, ...

I do, finally.

Two plates can only form a capacitor when a particular voltage threshold is reached.  Up to that point, the two plates are simply an open circuit.  There is no dielectric lines of force, no attraction between the plates.

But there's more...

There is another voltage threshold related to capacitors and when that voltage is reached, the capacitor is now a spark gap, a short circuit.

I was never taught any of this, but discovered it when working with the Jack Noskills device.

It's a voltage controlled switch that has a range where charge can be accumulated.  To me, this explains Nelson's early circuits using relays--he was trying to formulate a mechanism to take advantage of what we call a capacitor, only he figured out at some point a capacitor is also a switch.  Initially this concept flew right over my head, but now I see it, have proven it is real, it is there and we can use it too.

This explains why an LCR meter is of no use to us with these type of geometries.  You cannot adequately alter the voltage potential enough within an LCR meter for it to cover the entire range of such a capacitor.  So trying to get this kind of test equipment to display a useful value in Farads is pointless.  Now that I comprehend what is going on here, we maybe should attempt to build a measuring device that will tell us where the two thresholds are and what the capacitance is within those two thresholds.  That would be an extremely useful piece of equipment.

Thats a good one Matt. :thumbsup2:
Thats why the high voltage is needed, to close the gap between the bifilar coils.
I just did the 4 coils test, with center gap. I connected the 2 center coils. But they should be open.

I also tested it with open connection. there was a slight signal, but weak. Since I work with relative low voltages, I will need to close the gap. bring the plates/coil together. or raise the voltage. I can hook up my 19V power supply.

I guess, thats why Nelson has the blue coils with the white spacing. thats the dielectric.

What bothers me is that I should have figured this out a long time ago when playing with Xenon flash tubes.



The trigger plate provides a means to shorten the gap because of the placement and dielectric properties of the glass.  Essentially you provide enough voltage so the tube charges like a capacitor, then by providing enough voltage to the trigger plate, you short circuit the high voltage cap and an internal discharge takes place, causing the Xenon gas to form a plasma.

To me this is pure proof of a capacitor also acting as a switch--both high and low voltage thresholds must be adhered to.  As typical, hidden in plain sight.

Quote from evostars on May 5th, 2017, 03:56 PM

There must be 3 fields. one and two are transverse, electro magnetic , and the 3rd is longitudinal. this third wave... moving like sound pressure waves. this is where the energy resides.

If contained in a cylindrical fashion, you will in effect have two longitudinal waves on the same axis emanating from the same central point.  This is easy to recognize in a solenoid type coil, but more difficult to notice in a pancake flat coil.  I would think also more difficult to control.  You no longer have the volume of the solenoid coil, or that volume acting as a guide.  You only have a surface, so the wave will be far more abrupt--like the difference between rapid combustion (explosion) and a true detonation.  This is good though because change in intensity over time is where the energy is; you'll have a massive change in intensity for a very short period of time.  All that is needed is to sequence rapid bursts and the energy emitted will be extraordinary, if you can collect it all.

matt,  that's why I think the surfice area of the bifilar pancake coil is important.

if the 3 fields are all at 90 degrees related to each other. the 3rd field Longitudinal would point out of the coil straight up and down from the surface. bigger area better beam.

at the same time it rotates. producing a vortex.

that vortex needs a center hole, to spin freely.
radius of the hole, is one
radius of the hole plus windings is phi*phi
for perfect balance.
(phi*phi) - 1=phi

Quote from evostars on May 6th, 2017, 12:34 PM

bifilar inner hole ratio to winding surface area, based on the pentagram PHI geometry

I like the phi ratio idea for the inner/outer diameters.  Can you give me some ideas about the turning ratio?  What I mean is:  should the spacing be constant between the conductors from inner to outer starting point?   Or should this spacing also have some kind of phi ratio?   I'm not sure I can draw it properly.  Hopefully you get what I mean.  The reason I ask is because it looks more than possible to design a PCB bifilar pancake coil, with each one being precision made and exact.  If we have some idea what the optimal geometry might look like, it would give me an excellent starting point.

I'm also not clear whether the winding/spacing should be tighter near the center or the edge.  I'm thinking a vortex would spin faster at its edges than its center, so the angle near the outer edge should be almost tangent, but in the center, the opposite would be true.  The angle would be nearly 90 degrees from dead center, so something less than that at the hole edge.

Evo, do you have any examples of a phi-based spiral?  Other than the typical snail shell?

Quote from evostars on May 5th, 2017, 11:18 AM

For those, who want to comment on my work. please do it here.

You can lock your own thread so that members cannot respond to them.

Quote from Matt Watts on May 6th, 2017, 02:11 PM

I like the phi ratio idea for the inner/outer diameters.  Can you give me some ideas about the turning ratio?  What I mean is:  should the spacing be constant between the conductors from inner to outer starting point?   Or should this spacing also have some kind of phi ratio?   I'm not sure I can draw it properly.  Hopefully you get what I mean.  The reason I ask is because it looks more than possible to design a PCB bifilar pancake coil, with each one being precision made and exact.  If we have some idea what the optimal geometry might look like, it would give me an excellent starting point.

I'm also not clear whether the winding/spacing should be tighter near the center or the edge.  I'm thinking a vortex would spin faster at its edges than its center, so the angle near the outer edge should be almost tangent, but in the center, the opposite would be true.  The angle would be nearly 90 degrees from dead center, so something less than that at the hole edge.

Evo, do you have any examples of a phi-based spiral?  Other than the typical snail shell?

yes,  i have made a phi based toroid. its perfect for 8 pointed coils. I'll make some pics.

the spacing needs to be even. the spiral moves inwards,  and therefore changes rotational speeds.

the capacitance needs to be even to do this.

the only factor in spacing is,  how high the voltage pulses are when you put them in, to prevent spark over between the windings.
closer=better=more capacitance.

the windings are like capacitor plates.

Quote from haxar on May 6th, 2017, 05:46 PM

You can lock your own thread so that members cannot respond to them.

Thanks for the good tip :)

Where you have built the transformer onto your circuit and you mentioned the pulsed signal turning into a sine wave: This happens on all transformers that are pulsed with dc, the transformer core dynamics absorb the infrastruture of any square wave and don't output that infrastructure, you get a normal sine wave that emerges either side of the dc offset. If you place a diode after your transformer you then end up with chopped ac above the offset at twice the input frequency.

And if you need a transformer for high frequency then you need an audio transformer or switch mode transformer that can withstand the frequency. Laminated cores need to be air gapped at HF and sometimes ferrite does too. Normal 60hz transformers saturate at high frequency.
If you wish to build one then you can buy suitable cores and magnet wire to do the job which is what we've all been doing.

In case your wondering how you end up with twice the frequency it is because the diode only allows current in one direction and when it blocks current in the other direction it does so during the 180 degrees of pulse off. You then end up with all the 180 degree pulse off periods eliminated from the circuit and only a signal with back to back 180 degrees of pulse on.

tnx Nav. I suspected the iron core to mess it up.

I'm wondering what it would do without a core, just windings.

http://www.electronicdesign.com/energy/avoid-transformer-core-saturation

Quote from evostars on May 8th, 2017, 06:15 AM

I'm wondering what it would do without a core, just windings.

A transformer relies on magnetic flux to transfer the pulse from the primary to the secondary and the magnetic flux in the core must be able to switch fast enough to carry the dynamic signal. Laminated cores when pulsed with dc tend to over saturate because there isn't enough time to get rid of the magnetising flux before the next pulse. Air gaps in the core can be helpful but materials such as ferrite are better. Audio transformers work ok but you still have to be careful when pulsing them with dc and can still saturate.
Not having a core at all will not transfer the energy from the primary to the secondary efficiently enough because it relies on proximity of the fields rather than magnetic flux in a core.

Evo, if you get Nelson's circuit tuned right, you'll get tiny little pulses that blow the doors off your scope, well in excess of 400 volts with that transformer you bought.  There's also a voltage threshold where the circuit transitions from an oscillator to a pulse generator.  In my case that was somewhere between 7 ~ 9 volts.  I would try using a toroid with 1:1 turns instead of a ferrite rod though.

Nav, you need to build this circuit and get it working.  It doesn't behave at all like one would expect.  What Nelson discovered we need to comprehend.

tnx!
but how to tune...
i use uf4007 diodes. should be fast enough
removed the iron core,  replaced it with ferrite rods. still sine.

above 5 volts indeed the pulse becomes stronger but still not stable,  tomuch sine wave.

I think my cheap caps havr a hard time (high pitched noise), and a to low voltage rating,  for the bifilar pulses.  I will make that 1:1

Quote from Matt Watts on May 8th, 2017, 06:32 AM

Evo, if you get Nelson's circuit tuned right, you'll get tiny little pulses that blow the doors off your scope, well in excess of 400 volts with that transformer you bought.  There's also a voltage threshold where the circuit transitions from an oscillator to a pulse generator.  In my case that was somewhere between 7 ~ 9 volts.  I would try using a toroid with 1:1 turns instead of a ferrite rod though.

Nav, you need to build this circuit and get it working.  It doesn't behave at all like one would expect.  What Nelson discovered we need to comprehend.

Too busy Matt at the moment with the bifilar/Meyer project. I'm also building a new secondary which can pulse low and high frequencies. At the end of the day there isn't much difference in what i'm doing and what you guys are doing, the dynamics are the same using bifilars. All i'm doing is creating a secondary that can pulse a gated signal then a set of chokes that filter out part of that signal the exact same way a low pass filter chokes out high impedance signals then dumping them into a capacitor. My chokes also work at their self resonant frequency which produces more voltage to be dumped.

Got it fairly good working now, with a ferrite rod, with 2 separate windings, and a ferrite rod as step up transformer core. Thanks for the help.

but still no spikes. sinus...
will try again with iron core

Evostars, there is only one thing you can do with an high voltage dielectric field and that is to store it as capacitance. Then that capacitance must be isolated from the primary source impedance for it to be effective.
For years and years we have choked unwanted signals from voltage and transmission lines then sent them through capacitance back to the source impedance and everyone should have worked out by now that there is no need to do it.
Unwanted signals and their respective harmonics are the gateway to capacitance and if you can't find an unwanted signal with harmonics then create one, it really isn't so hard but it involves firstly creating a primary signal through resistance then filtering an unwanted signal through a capacitor not back to the source impedance but keeping it isolated and then using it while in isolation.
That's what this is all about - isolation, what ever happens in your bifilar array you must keep it away from your source otherwise the source will neutralise it.

There is an effect called self resonance where the inductive and capacitive reactance neutralise each other in an inductor, however if you create a situation where the inductive reactance is asked a question and you've blocked the answer then the capacitive reactance is also asked the same question but here lies wisdom and the beauty of mother nature: Capacitive reactance always answers any question asked one quarter of a cycle before inductive reactance can answer the same question.
With this knowledge you can isolate the capacitive reactance in either a resonant or none resonant condition. Remember these words i've told you because they will help you understand how mother nature works and help you design your own equipment and not copy others.
But here is an absolutely critical clue which i'm going to tell you about and i've not told anyone else about but it needs saying: Imagine you have a magnetic field in a bifilar coil, when the magnetic field collapses it will always collapse in the opposite direction from which it was charged, there are two positive wires at one end of the coil and two negative wires at the other. Now imagine you charged the bifilar through just one of its wires and you used a diode to bias the direction of charge then when the pulse is terminated the magnetic field always opposes the direction of charge so reverses and then is blocked by the diode. There is no voltage or current available on the charging wire BUT something very special happens in the other wire on the bifilar.
Even though the bias diode only blocked the current for one wire it also blocks the current on the other wire because the other wire is magnetically coupled. But mother nature is a very special thing because she allowed the voltage in the other wire to pass even though the current was blocked in that wire. The reason why mother nature does this is because during the very act of blocking current in both wires, the voltage on the wire with no diode was already 90 degrees in front and providing both the wire to the diode and the wire to the capacitor are of equal length then because the voltage is leading by 90 degrees then it hits the capacitor plate first but in the other wire with the diode there can be no voltage pass because it is open circuit. Look at the diagram, its a race to the finish line between the current and voltage on the none diode wire but remember for voltage to win then both wires have to be the same length. You've just picked my brain big style, make use of it.

thanks  for sharing Nav, have you build something with this knowledge?

I need to say this: "what about the 3rd field"

2 transverse fields (EM)
1 Longitudinal field.