Electron Extraction Circuit...

Heuristicobfuscation

Electron Extraction Circuit...
« on April 9th, 2015, 05:53 PM »
Has anyone replicated the Electron Extraction Circuit :huh:

In the videos and speaches..
It seems that Stan is describing a progressive technological achievment..

For example one of his first "achievment"  was being able to limit the current in the water fuell cell bath with the VIC.
but it wasnt till he starts talking about the "Electron Extraction Circuit"  where things realy started to go into high gear.

With the "Electron Extraction Circuit"   and the "resonant cavity cell" he can now achieve  "on demand" gas yeild...
he mentiones this "on demand' couple times in reference to the  "Resonant Cavity Cell" and "Electron Extraction Circuit"
not the VIC!
"Resonant Cavity Cell"....not very effective until we introduce the "Electron Extraction Circuit".

see acording to stan the (EEC) is  what creats the condition for "higher yield" of gas....

The (EEC) in action is what allows the water to enter into a gas ionized state togheter with the resonant cavity :exclamation:

In the Resonant Cavity he talkes about "particle impact".. now upon watching his videos over and over... this is conclusion ive come to ... that the "particle impact"  can only occur when the (EEC) is working properly.

See the (EEC) is the (VIC)..
In other words the (VIC) was a precursur to the (EEC) ...
not forgeting that Stan was using the Kiss methode. 
I think Stan Got his master design and subdivided it into tiny little chunks for the patent office.

This makes it very hard to replicate!

In the Water Fuell Cell demo that  he showed the patent office in witch most of us have  replicated. He does not show  the (EEC) in action!

.. Now the "Resonant Cavity"  im thinking was a precursor to the (WFCI) Water Fuel Cell Injector.

And just like the original "Resonant Cavity" was not functional without the (EEC)  I belive the (WFCI) is not funtional without the
(EEC).


One more insight... the (EEC) is what possibly he was using to alter gas states and testing in the (EPG).

 :thinking: Has anybody out  there replicated this?  This is probably important peace of puzzle..



Matt Watts

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #1, on April 9th, 2015, 06:45 PM »
It was always my understanding the VIC and WFC combination could yield approximately 3 LpM of gas at very low input power.  This gas however lacks the "quality" to actually run the little four cylinder VW engine with any significant power and may not even be able to idle the engine (from my experience).

I'm not sure if it's the EEC or not, but there is some component that drastically improves the fuel quality of the gas coming out of the WFC.  This component has always been the holy grail in my book, simply because one should be able to attach a brute force dry to its input and get a fuel gas on the exit that can do some real work in an ICE.  I had thought for years this component was the one having all the LEDs inside it.  Without this component the fuel gas simply doesn't have the thermo-explosive energy to really get a piston engine to run properly.

Gunther Rattay

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #2, on April 11th, 2015, 01:35 AM »Last edited on April 11th, 2015, 01:52 AM
Ed Mitchell from TrueGreenSolutions has built the EEC into the Gas Processor and we have operated it 2 years ago.

The Gas Processor is the missing link to efficiency.

(But) To operate efficient the VIC transformer must work the correct way. We have to learn the design the hard way thru implementing the VIC to a water cell first and that leads to the know how needed to vary the VIC to Gas Processor usage.

Question to check your detailed knowledge: who knows how the VIC high voltage output signal has to look like to make the Gas Processor work correctly and why?

it may help to think about the aspect that using a VIC to drive a water cell is much different from driving a Gas Processor.

But what do both modi operandi have in common :huh:

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #3, on April 11th, 2015, 01:48 AM »
Stan used a stack of Gas Processors to extract one layer of electrons after the other.

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #4, on April 11th, 2015, 06:14 PM »
Quote from Gunther Rattay on April 11th, 2015, 01:35 AM
Ed Mitchell from TrueGreenSolutions has built the EEC into the Gas Processor and we have operated it 2 years ago.

The Gas Processor is the missing link to efficiency.

(But) To operate efficient the VIC transformer must work the correct way. We have to learn the design the hard way thru implementing the VIC to a water cell first and that leads to the know how needed to vary the VIC to Gas Processor usage.

Question to check your detailed knowledge: who knows how the VIC high voltage output signal has to look like to make the Gas Processor work correctly and why?

it may help to think about the aspect that using a VIC to drive a water cell is much different from driving a Gas Processor.

But what do both modi operandi have in common :huh:
Yes.. very important.. the gas processor..

I dont think Ed ever showed the gas processor in action? complete with the EEC?

This is were Stan I think confuses us all....
he gives multiple fancy names to similar devices...

example:  does anyone know the difference between "The Hydrogen Gas Gun & the "Gas porcesor?

See according to Memo WFC 420 pg 1-10
this is what he says.
"The Hydogen Gas Gun" is the Electron extraction process....

the process is composed of an electron extraction circuit  figure 1-14 and  Gas resonant cavity... figure 1-17
basicly two main components...

This not to be confused with the "Gas Procesor"...

they look alike , sound alike but altogher different...
the Gas Processor preps the ambient air in for combustion..

The "Gas Gun" with (EEC) directly affects the actual gases liberated from water bath.

now this is an important statement.. found in pg 1-12
The "Hydrogen Gas Gun" can be reduced to the size of an auto spark plug!

meaning that according to his defenition.... the (EEC) would be required as a component to the "Electron Extraction process" pg 1=10

now this all falls under one main term or topic that he describes as the Hydrogen Fracturing Process.
not to be confused with the Water Fracturing process..lol...

ok here is my brief expl of stans design...process.

#1 Electrical Polarization process.. pg 1-7
this is were he actually limits the current with electronics and fracture the water....

#2 Electron Extraction Process..pg 1-9
this  process, combined with first is what I personaly  belive takes the water into ionized state.

now this ionized gas.... is what he reintroduces in the "resonant cavity" that is what we know as wfc lol..
and this causes "particle impact"...  this is why  suposedly his Resonat Cavity  is suposed to yeild an
exponential rate of gas unlike other cells.

ok i will atttempt to answer your question...
this is just my  opinon ... i dont have any  hard evidence for this statement.

im thinking ther is sopused to be a trigered  step voltage increase to the VIC.
similar to switch- off coil array figure 7-13
video bellow look at around 3:34... i try to explain sequencial trigered step voltage increase....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4082392553&feature=iv&list=UU095jfI446MK9VoLnAJKwRw&src_vid=99V-kr_8zio&v=99V-kr_8zio#t=4m43s

and during swicht off... we are supoposed to apply the (EEC)

and if we are using this specific system its soposed to be a "Water Drop"
This is what i think is part of problem with Ed VIC..

He mentioned he has high voltage at cell...yet not enough...
If he were to apply same VIC network to small "water drop" and during switch off
phase applyes (EEC) .. The water drop may actually ignite,,,off course he would need
a WFC Injector.

firepinto

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #5, on April 11th, 2015, 06:34 PM »
In Stan's 11 cell system, the positive and negative wire of the VIC Primary Coil are both controlled by transistors.  One transistor is responsible for the pulse train, while the other transistor is responsible for the voltage amplitude.   The pulse train amplitude stays the same through out the process.  The design intent was to limit the amount of gas produced.  There was also a toggle switch to bypass the voltage amplitude transistor, and supply direct 12 Volts to always produce maximum gas output.

brettly

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #6, on April 13th, 2015, 11:55 AM »
I think the injector unit only splits water then hho directly into the engine.
There is a reason why I think it: I was experimenting with ultrasonic water foggers, the fog was produced inside a plastic bottle which was sealed, the water mist only exited via one plastic tube, the plastic bottle was pressurised slightly with an aquarium water pump.
I used a syringe needle in one experiment to see if the water mist would go through a hollow needle ( common size used to inject humans). It turns out there is a minimum size orifice where the water mist will recombine back into liquid water before exiting the orifice.( i.e. in that experiment no water mist came out the needle, only droplets of water!)
I conclude that with stans injectors, he premixes the exhaust gas/ambient air/water with an atomisier type setup...............once that goes into the voltage zone ( 1/100th space) it turns back into liquid water, not droplets anymore.
Stans injector system developed from his electrical circuit where liquid water between two electrodes used the capacitance of the water as part of the circuit.
The injector is no different, its still using water in its liquid form between concentric electrodes, its not in droplet form once it enters the voltage zone. Thats my conclusion anyhow.
The effect of hho bubbles within the voltage zone I have no idea, but I did find one academic paper that found the bubbles increase the resistance between electrodes ( sorry I didn't save the link to the paper). I would have thought hho bubbles would decrease the resistance between electrodes, maybe its fortuitous.

freethisone

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #7, on April 23rd, 2015, 05:58 PM »
Other work  jj thomson. hydrogen only has one electron.

In 1905, Thomson discovered the natural radioactivity of potassium.[16]

In 1906, Thomson demonstrated that hydrogen had only a single electron per atom. Previous theories allowed various numbers of electrons.



How do they remove electrons from an atom?
How do chemist and physicist strip electron from an atom? how are different atoms electrically charged? for example how would you electrically charge a stable oxygen atom?
Update: can these charged atoms harm a person if they are exposed to them?
Follow
2 answers

Best Answer:  You can simply heat the gas, .e.g. by passing a large current through it. The collisions between atoms knock off electrons. The charge on each ion depends on how many electrons have been knocked off.

The positive ions can them be directed where you want, using an electric field.

E.g. see link.
Source(s): http://www.globalspec.com/learnmore/manu...
Steve4Physics · 3 years ago
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    ?
    According to Albert Einsteins theory on the Photoelectric Effect, the photon energy of a high enough energy source will exhibit the nature of a particle; hence you can calculate the photon energy with the equation E=hf. If you shine UV light at a single atom by placing the atom on the head of a needle, you can remove an electron, and capture it in a matchbox. This will enable the atom to the positively charged, or become a cation. Moreover, if you remove the electron this way, the electron will have a velocity, and therefore you can calculate its kinetic energy, which you could use to estimate the energy it potentially had within the atom.
    Source(s): The Sauce

Gunther Rattay

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #8, on April 24th, 2015, 12:54 AM »Last edited on April 24th, 2015, 02:30 AM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 11th, 2015, 06:14 PM
...
ok i will atttempt to answer your question...
this is just my  opinon ... i dont have any  hard evidence for this statement.

im thinking ther is sopused to be a trigered  step voltage increase to the VIC.
similar to switch- off coil array figure 7-13
video bellow look at around 3:34... i try to explain sequencial trigered step voltage increase....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4082392553&feature=iv&list=UU095jfI446MK9VoLnAJKwRw&src_vid=99V-kr_8zio&v=99V-kr_8zio#t=4m43s

and during swicht off... we are supoposed to apply the (EEC)

and if we are using this specific system its soposed to be a "Water Drop"
This is what i think is part of problem with Ed VIC..

He mentioned he has high voltage at cell...yet not enough...
If he were to apply same VIC network to small "water drop" and during switch off
phase applyes (EEC) .. The water drop may actually ignite,,,off course he would need
a WFC Injector.
@Heuristicobfuscation
ok, you were the one and only one to give an answer to that question :)

@all
following the thread shows that not all of us are really communicating but instead putting  individual statements  into the sequence no matter whether it fits or not ...

... however

we used a high voltage ignition coil (>50KV) connected to inner and outer electrode of the gas processor.

once coil primary was pulsed DC the voltage from the secondary thru the diode at the gas processor instantaneously rose to 50 KV and stayed constant DC. that´s obvious because there is no load (or extreme high) resistance thru air betweeen the electrodes.

Stan wanted to break the electron bond and with DC voltage he could not reach that. and without pulsing the electron extraction also doesn´t work.

so the answer is: an ignition coil can´t produce the pulsed voltage for the gas processor because it only has a primary and a secondary and it´s lacking the chokes (behind the diode) and the bifilar windings and the magnetic coupling.

so the most important answer is that the pulsing at the gas processor electrodes is created by internal sharp edged AC voltage generation within the VIC itself so that the output voltage swings between +Max and 0 or even between Max+ and Max- no matter whether there is a load connected or not
a load can be resistive or capacitive, doesn´t matter at all.

that´s the same for the water VIC. but the water resistance makes it easier to make the voltage output pulse by the water´s resistance working against the capacitance.

Result: no correct VIC, no fun ...
 
Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #9, on April 24th, 2015, 01:31 AM »Last edited on April 24th, 2015, 01:34 AM
so we can see that the VIC knowledge will / the VIC solved will bring the breakthru/turnaround for that technology.

At the moment there are very few people working on VIC build. As far as I know Ronnie, Ed and nav.

Ronnie told a year ago that his VIC is working fine now and I personally feel so sad that he doesn´t share that knowledge with the community. For a year since then we have built one VIC configuration after the other, always getting to a point of fail and much cost could have been avoided by sharing that knowledge. personally I expect that once the Ronnie´s and Neal´s Stan Meyer full replication goes viral his VIC also will have some problems and then it will take more time and more time to solve. over the years we have not found magnetics experts here, nav seems to be the one with advanced know how, and this VIC part really would need some sharing of know how.

 so ... @Ronnie
please think once more about publishing details of your VIC implementation and results

freethisone

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #10, on April 24th, 2015, 07:03 PM »Last edited on April 24th, 2015, 07:05 PM
electron connection is interesting right? you want to strip off electron from a hydrogen gas right.. but wait a minute what else can you do with a corona discharge? the answer is extract electrons directly from air, causing any spark gap operated devise to produce more power..

what does the spark gap trigger, the extraction devise, and  a hho cell really do? it can increase energy in a circuit..

but a corona devise in vacuum can cause ozone to be produced. can cause election avalanches in spark gap triggers. or simply charging capacitors.

Matt Watts

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #11, on April 24th, 2015, 09:08 PM »
Quote from freethisone on April 24th, 2015, 07:03 PM
but a corona devise in vacuum can cause ozone to be produced.
So you can make ozone in a vacuum?  Hmmm.  I'd have to see that to believe it.   :dodgy:

freethisone

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #12, on April 24th, 2015, 10:43 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on April 24th, 2015, 09:08 PM
So you can make ozone in a vacuum?  Hmmm.  I'd have to see that to believe it.   :dodgy:
im trying to describe a vacuum tube.. sorry..  vacuum tube has a vacuum but still a spark crosses a gap.
Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #13, on April 24th, 2015, 11:05 PM »
here is an experiment, use electron circuit to create a conduit, and in the conduit have venture tubes, use a small cpu fan for circulation. enclose it in a sealed box. plexi..

now u have a second box, with a 3 inch hole were the fan goes in.its at the bottom of second box, and empties into the the second box that is on top. also in the second box we add a spark gap to tes for spark gap increases as a direct effect of increasing energy output. by the creation of ions, and electric break down.

in box number one that is below the first you have enclosed your electron corona field to condition the volume of gas that you choose.  later we will include carbon smoke, or vapour fro ordinary gas to prove the power of  charging atoms, and increasing the volume of fuel by adding ionic charges to the mix.

i can use pm magnets if i choose to separate the charges at the venturi tubes. to prove a concept that rare gas, can be created and used for direct current.

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #14, on April 26th, 2015, 01:50 PM »






For some time ive tried to reconsile the mathematical fact that given a secondary voltage state, the resistance has to rise!
according to established laws we are aware of.  (volts = √watts × ohms)

this arguments and reasonings can be found here:  http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2119.0

althogh i dont have any hard evidence.. The following has helped me in my internal tough strugle....
I know that resistance has to rise!!

the problem has been how  is this possible?
how can the water resistance rise?

going back and forth in Stans extensive writhings... this is what has recently hit me..

#1That nobody has replicated the true (EEC)

#2 That this is possibly what may hold the anwswer to the (volts = √watts × ohms) Rise of Resistance!



usualy there is a balance played out in the electrodes...
The (EEC) is creating an unbalalance.
becouse the internal interaction of the water is no longer bieng allowd to fully develop as electrolosis.
another form of chemical interaction is occuring...
that is what Stan refers as "Particle Bombartment"  he reintroduces the liberated gas into the sperical cavity back into water bath and continualy applyies the (EEC).. 

there is a possibilty that due to the lack of internal electrical disispatioin.. that the resistance is rising due to building up of  execisve built up of  "unipolar charged particles" ( less electons are made available and more positive ions are introduced)

example:   if all of the charges are built up positve then they will repel the anode and saturate the charge.
the diode will prevent unwanted diff in charge to flow.. and the switchoff network from the (EEC) will suffocate any remainder
chatodic charge. from within the water bath...

As the cycles continue ... we can see that the saturation effect will cause a great increase in resistance!
also the Saturation effect will cause a built up of charge... possible giving rise to "Step charge Phenomenon" That Stan would
continualy mention...  this is another mistery possible explained by the (EEC) . That is: how was the capacitor charging in ever increasing potential if the source of secondary can only due so much?
 To me it seems that the introduction of more charged particels was permiting this arrangement to occur :
 that is by means of reclyling the liberated gasses back into the water bath :exclamation:

At one point in time durring the gate off cycle an opening will occur in  the diode that allows the internal charges to "equalze" producing great amount of electrostatic voltage potential...
this may very well be  the great stress undergone by remainding molecules undergoing "switch off' at withc point a great amount of
electrons would colide with existing anode charged particles producing great stress among water.

Releasing great amounts of Gas that has been energized due to (EEC)








brettly

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #15, on April 27th, 2015, 01:09 AM »
I did read one research paper where they found the bubbles of H and O increase the water resistance, if I can find the paper again I will post a link to it.

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #16, on April 27th, 2015, 02:07 PM »
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 26th, 2015, 01:50 PM
For some time ive tried to reconsile the mathematical fact that given a secondary voltage state, the resistance has to rise!
according to established laws we are aware of.  (volts = √watts × ohms)

this arguments and reasonings can be found here:  http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2119.0

althogh i dont have any hard evidence.. The following has helped me in my internal tough strugle....
I know that resistance has to rise!!

the problem has been how  is this possible?
how can the water resistance rise?

going back and forth in Stans extensive writhings... this is what has recently hit me..

#1That nobody has replicated the true (EEC)

#2 That this is possibly what may hold the anwswer to the (volts = √watts × ohms) Rise of Resistance!



usualy there is a balance played out in the electrodes...
The (EEC) is creating an unbalalance.
becouse the internal interaction of the water is no longer bieng allowd to fully develop as electrolosis.
another form of chemical interaction is occuring...
that is what Stan refers as "Particle Bombartment"  he reintroduces the liberated gas into the sperical cavity back into water bath and continualy applyies the (EEC).. 

there is a possibilty that due to the lack of internal electrical disispatioin.. that the resistance is rising due to building up of  execisve built up of  "unipolar charged particles" ( less electons are made available and more positive ions are introduced)

example:   if all of the charges are built up positve then they will repel the anode and saturate the charge.
the diode will prevent unwanted diff in charge to flow.. and the switchoff network from the (EEC) will suffocate any remainder
chatodic charge. from within the water bath...

As the cycles continue ... we can see that the saturation effect will cause a great increase in resistance!
also the Saturation effect will cause a built up of charge... possible giving rise to "Step charge Phenomenon" That Stan would
continualy mention...  this is another mistery possible explained by the (EEC) . That is: how was the capacitor charging in ever increasing potential if the source of secondary can only due so much?
 To me it seems that the introduction of more charged particels was permiting this arrangement to occur :
 that is by means of reclyling the liberated gasses back into the water bath :exclamation:

At one point in time durring the gate off cycle an opening will occur in  the diode that allows the internal charges to "equalze" producing great amount of electrostatic voltage potential...
this may very well be  the great stress undergone by remainding molecules undergoing "switch off' at withc point a great amount of
electrons would colide with existing anode charged particles producing great stress among water.

Releasing great amounts of Gas that has been energized due to (EEC)
funny reading my own post and cheking for  errors... I noticed the following....


This mistery:   the one were voltage and Resistance rise and current falls...
all this time I havent been paying attention but it seems that this effect mimics whats called a "Negative Resister"

According to Wiki;

"In electronics, negative resistance (NR)[4] is a property of some electrical circuits and devices in which an increase in voltage across the device's terminals results in a decrease in electric current through it.

This is in contrast to an ordinary resistor in which an increase of applied voltage causes a proportional increase in current due to Ohm's law, resulting in a positive resistance.[8] While a positive resistance consumes power from current passing through it, a negative resistance produces power.[9][10] Under certain conditions it can increase the power of an electrical signal, amplifying it"



firepinto

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #17, on April 27th, 2015, 05:10 PM »
Interesting catch with the negative resistance.  I did a quick google and found the Gunn diode: 

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/RadCom/part5/page1.html

I'm curious about the formula for Dynamic Resistance, where OHMs law can not really apply on it's own, but instead use the formula r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable.

Also Stan named one of this devices the Hydrogen Gas Gun, and it really has no resemblance of a gun.  Coincidence?  Can we make a Stainless tube set into a Gunn Diode?

I also thought this was interesting in the attached photo of the current sine wave, which one looks the most like step charging? :thinking:
Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #19, on April 27th, 2015, 05:29 PM »
More interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPATT_diode
Quote
Principle of operation

If a free electron with sufficient energy strikes a silicon atom, it can break the covalent bond of silicon and liberate an electron from the covalent bond. If the electron liberated gains energy by being in an electric field and liberates other electrons from other covalent bonds then this process can cascade very quickly into a chain reaction producing a large number of electrons and a large current flow. This phenomenon is called impact avalanche.
It seems the scientific term for the product of Stan's Electron Extraction is probably "electron hole".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #20, on April 27th, 2015, 08:16 PM »Last edited on April 27th, 2015, 08:29 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:10 PM
Interesting catch with the negative resistance.  I did a quick google and found the Gunn diode: 

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/RadCom/part5/page1.html

I'm curious about the formula for Dynamic Resistance, where OHMs law can not really apply on it's own, but instead use the formula r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable.

Also Stan named one of this devices the Hydrogen Gas Gun, and it really has no resemblance of a gun.  Coincidence?  Can we make a Stainless tube set into a Gunn Diode?

I also thought this was interesting in the attached photo of the current sine wave, which one looks the most like step charging? :thinking:
yes the picture detailing negative resistance .defenitly shows a "step charge or increase in osilation"
Quote from firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:29 PM
More interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPATT_diode
It seems the scientific term for the product of Stan's Electron Extraction is probably "electron hole".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole
yes in one of stans comments he says the following :  "The Hydogen Gas Gun" is the Electron extraction process"....
wich is part of reason im searching this area....that is the (EEC)

I have to say i havent been this exited in a while. :excited:..now we are able to see a potential mechanism in which resistance can
rise!.... even dou im sure there are pletny of erors in my last post.. at least now we have a working formula...a potential if you will to
explain the rise of resistance!.... great...

already i can see the big obstacles.....

#1 Clearly identifing the source of the R  rise.
my quess is  "The Hydrogen  Gas  Gun" or as stan defines is the "Electron extraction process"

#2 Selecting the right methode of  reproducing a "Hydrogen gas gun":
not to be confused with "gas processor" or a "minuture gas gun" such as (wfci).
Here is were things get really interesting.......
before Stan started building his latest dune buggy with the (wfci) he had experimented with the "sperical resonant cavity" and interfaced it with the "Electron extraction process" ... this I think is what promped him to design the (WFCI).   
the problem is we are missing this peace of the puzzle... there are only bits and peaces left from those experiments.. the only solid stuff we have to go by is his not  so in cronological order writhings......

we have pictues and writings... also comentary such as once he mentioned that he had a terible explosion in his garrage..

wich leads me to number

#3  safety..
Stan was a smart cokie.. why did it explode?
dont know the time line... maybe this lead him to the spark arrestor? or maybe he had it?
or could it be he was applying the VIC to the liberated Gas?
well I dont know the answer either way we need to be carefull and extremly safe if we are to go down this path..

although this is how I belive it went down....

#1 he used the VIC to split water...
then recyled liberated gas back into cell with (VIC/EEC).

#2 then had multiple stage (EEC) within the ("sperical resonat cavity")
wich formed the "Hydrogen gas gun"

#3 then he would pass this through the "Gas processor"

this is were i think he got divided.... in efforts... at one point he is building this stuff for  military applications...wich if im not mistaken
i think he got a gag order or limited on how he would share certain aspects of his tech... (please correct me if im wrong here)..

Then he is looking for a "retrofit" system for vehicles....

so he embarkes on miniturizing the "Hydrogen gas gun" into the "water spark plug"

when we read all his writhings.. it tells us a story... I think we need to understand the whole story ..
I am not claiming to know the story... just realizing that it is very deep.. and after some time of reasearch
I can see myself compiling more and more info on this vast journey....

If I can convince myself that this is somewhat accurate...
then next level of experiments are going to be alot more interesting......

see I have been limited in experiments thinking the "holy grail"  or "secret ingredient" was in a small spectrum of builds and experiments.....

I keeped performing the same experimetns hoping for differnt results....brushed off the other deep stuff thinking that it wasnt
nessesary. ie (Hydrogen Gas gun,EEC)

Maybe its time for next level..



brettly

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #21, on April 27th, 2015, 09:02 PM »
firepinto posted
r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable

The d can be ignored, its mathematical symbol. Basically you have r = V/I
Thats ohms law, a basic formula for circuits. The same formula can be written:
r = v/i  or v = r/i  or   i = v/r

If you ever see a 'd' or a small triangle in same position as the d , you can ignore them.
The 'd' or small triangle means " change in" , so for your formula r = dv/di  its saying
the resistance is directly proportional to the "change in" voltage ( i.e. as the voltage goes up the resistance goes up, or vis versa as the voltage goes down the resistance goes down)
and
the resistance is inversely proportional to the current ( i.e. as the resistance goes up the current goes down, or vis versa, as the resistance goes down the current goes up).

confusing? if your not mathematically minded then best to read up on ohmns law and try to understand some examples that use the formula.

I'm quite enjoying your information on eec etc
Do you know what einstein got the noble prize for? most people would think relativity....but....
he got a noble prize for research on the photoelectric effect. When light of a certain wavelength is shone onto a metal surface, if its at the correct wavelength it can knock off an electron from the surface of the metal.
Stan is using red leds I assume to give some energy to electrons in the water, since water absorbs well in the infrared frequencies. I'm not familiar with the eec or its function. Maybe he
is using the red leds to energise the hydrogen? Sorry I haven't read up on the eec.
Just keep in mind there is the photoelectric effect also, where light can be used to free an electron from a metal surface.....I have no idea if that plays a role in the eec.

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #22, on April 27th, 2015, 09:50 PM »Last edited on April 27th, 2015, 09:56 PM
Quote from brettly on April 27th, 2015, 09:02 PM
firepinto posted
r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable

The d can be ignored, its mathematical symbol. Basically you have r = V/I
Thats ohms law, a basic formula for circuits. The same formula can be written:
r = v/i  or v = r/i  or   i = v/r

If you ever see a 'd' or a small triangle in same position as the d , you can ignore them.
The 'd' or small triangle means " change in" , so for your formula r = dv/di  its saying
the resistance is directly proportional to the "change in" voltage ( i.e. as the voltage goes up the resistance goes up, or vis versa as the voltage goes down the resistance goes down)
and
the resistance is inversely proportional to the current ( i.e. as the resistance goes up the current goes down, or vis versa, as the resistance goes down the current goes up).

confusing? if your not mathematically minded then best to read up on ohmns law and try to understand some examples that use the formula.

I'm quite enjoying your information on eec etc
Do you know what einstein got the noble prize for? most people would think relativity....but....
he got a noble prize for research on the photoelectric effect. When light of a certain wavelength is shone onto a metal surface, if its at the correct wavelength it can knock off an electron from the surface of the metal.
Stan is using red leds I assume to give some energy to electrons in the water, since water absorbs well in the infrared frequencies. I'm not familiar with the eec or its function. Maybe he
is using the red leds to energise the hydrogen? Sorry I haven't read up on the eec.
Just keep in mind there is the photoelectric effect also, where light can be used to free an electron from a metal surface.....I have no idea if that plays a role in the eec.
thanks for your post...

yes the light wave has important role in the "Hydrogen gas gun" or "Electron extraction process"  as Stan would say..

The  "Electron extraction process"  is composed of multilayer system....

Starts of with what Stan calles the "Electrical Polarization Process" pg 1-7

This process is limited in voltage level that it can reach without going into heavy amp consumption...
 see post above were he has picture of data time line..
see pat # 4,798,661    there he explians the evoluton of the attempts he has at limiting current when applying voltage.
he explains how applying differnt levels of tech he started to acheive higer levels of voltage and lower levels of current...
from using resistors,variale resistors,pulse trains,gates, cavity wave lenths, pulse voltage amplitude, pulse voltage frequency etc...

all of that only reached small fraction of where he wanted to be....
that is in a state of "gas ionization"  pg 1-8

its not in his writhing that he starts talking realy big gas and energy  yeild until one runs into the "Electron extractjion process"

The primary consisting of a circuit called the "Electron extraction circuit"and the (VIC) used in a cavity called the "Sperical resonant cavity"

in wich he would recycle back into water bath...
then he would stage level the gas into other resonat cavity that just had the electrodes and the (EEC)(VIC) present...
used to "extract" electrons ... in essence charge the gas... that is "Ionize"

The last stage was to pass it thrue a "Gas processor"  witch is the one that has the led lights.
This would complete in essence the "Hydrogen Gas Gun"

and yes as you had stated this light process would probaly knock of any left over electrons....

this is what we do know.... a photon will increase the energy of an electron into higher orbit or valence shell..
so yes in essence as stan would say it was aiding in the electron extraction.. becouse there are so many levels it can reach
before it detaches and releases the energy in the form of current or "elecron beam or gun"   this is why the (EEC) has a
"grid" on the circuit ...and its to catch the electron and consuming in circuit... other wise it would go elsewhere. like in a magnetron
or chatode ray tube it can be dirrected like a "gun" but instead Stan was collecting it .....and consuming it in circut.

and this was the precursor to the "Water fuel cell injector" in which he miniturized the "HYdrogen gas gun"  into the size of a spark plug..

This last stament can be found at  pg 1-12


also forgot to mention... in some drawing he does show the "laser light" as an option during the "Electrical Polarization Process" directed in water bath..
althogh as in most of his major experiments this info is limited..




Gunther Rattay

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #23, on April 28th, 2015, 03:42 AM »Last edited on April 28th, 2015, 04:08 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:29 PM
More interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPATT_diode
It seems the scientific term for the product of Stan's Electron Extraction is probably "electron hole".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole
electron holes play an important role in crystal and semiconductor technology like mosfets, transistors, integrated circuits. base material is artificially modified to create these electron holes and that way amplification and switching and charge storage can be realized. electron holes are the fundament for leverage processes.

assuming that water and steel are no semiconductors (there was an interesting idea here at the forum to take water similar to a semiconductor) electron holes won´t play a role here.

the d or triangle symbol are a part of calculus with differentiation over time. taking water with bubbles  gives a nonlinear resistor because short timelslots without bubbles give lower resistance than short timeslots with bubbles in the water. so you can´t calculate a fixed resistance by applying ohms law. instead you have to break down your calculation into very short timeframes (theoretically timeless points in time, in reality ns timeframes), calculate each dV/dI and calculate an average over time for the whole period. that´s the way instruments work to calculate capacitance/inductance. therefore they need to pulse the test object.

now you can see that Stan´s technology must be looked at at detail to understand it and it must  be controlled at detail to get it working.

so dV/dI really has to be taken into account instead of V/I to understand what´s really going on - to understand the dynamic behaviour of the system. imagine what it means to have a non-linear and non-predictable resistance/capacitance in series to a bifilar wound multi-coil transformer ...

can you see the implications for resonance, magnetic field changes, voltage and current?

that system will operate very dynamic, maybe chaotic and the controlling instance will of course be the pulse generator.

that said first now should make absoluteley clear why a full-control pulse generator as PGen 2.0 (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2065.msg28186#msg28186) is needed instead of simple 555 or 4046.

with those trivial solutions you won´t reach the goal to analyze in depth the dynamics of the system and without pll regulation integrating gating (as PGen 2.0 does) you won´t fit Stan´s requirements and so you will fail. did you know that Stan already used a microcontroller system in the 90´s when he was ready to go for industrial production?

no? so take a look at his newsletter making that clear. the old discrete builts from the 80´s did no longer fit his necessities and so he made the switch to microcontrollers (!)



oops ... something most of us missed?

remember the guy Holbrook manually regulating the gas flow on the buggy during the cruise?

he had to do that manually because there was no other way to regulate gas flow dependent from actual motor condition without microcontroller ...

so where will the outdated replications of discrete circuits from the patents lead to?

they will be a fun project and lead to a basic understanding what is needed else to get the system up and running ;)

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
« Reply #24, on April 28th, 2015, 04:11 PM »
 something missing?