open-source-energy.org

Open - Source - Research => HHO / Browns Gas / Hydroxy / Stan Meyer => Open-Source Research => Stan Meyer WFC => Topic started by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 9th, 2015, 05:53 PM

Title: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 9th, 2015, 05:53 PM
Has anyone replicated the Electron Extraction Circuit :huh:

In the videos and speaches..
It seems that Stan is describing a progressive technological achievment..

For example one of his first "achievment"  was being able to limit the current in the water fuell cell bath with the VIC.
but it wasnt till he starts talking about the "Electron Extraction Circuit"  where things realy started to go into high gear.

With the "Electron Extraction Circuit"   and the "resonant cavity cell" he can now achieve  "on demand" gas yeild...
he mentiones this "on demand' couple times in reference to the  "Resonant Cavity Cell" and "Electron Extraction Circuit"
not the VIC!
"Resonant Cavity Cell"....not very effective until we introduce the "Electron Extraction Circuit".

see acording to stan the (EEC) is  what creats the condition for "higher yield" of gas....

The (EEC) in action is what allows the water to enter into a gas ionized state togheter with the resonant cavity :exclamation:

In the Resonant Cavity he talkes about "particle impact".. now upon watching his videos over and over... this is conclusion ive come to ... that the "particle impact"  can only occur when the (EEC) is working properly.

See the (EEC) is the (VIC)..
In other words the (VIC) was a precursur to the (EEC) ...
not forgeting that Stan was using the Kiss methode. 
I think Stan Got his master design and subdivided it into tiny little chunks for the patent office.

This makes it very hard to replicate!

In the Water Fuell Cell demo that  he showed the patent office in witch most of us have  replicated. He does not show  the (EEC) in action!

.. Now the "Resonant Cavity"  im thinking was a precursor to the (WFCI) Water Fuel Cell Injector.

And just like the original "Resonant Cavity" was not functional without the (EEC)  I belive the (WFCI) is not funtional without the
(EEC).

One more insight... the (EEC) is what possibly he was using to alter gas states and testing in the (EPG).

 :thinking: Has anybody out  there replicated this?  This is probably important peace of puzzle..


Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Matt Watts on April 9th, 2015, 06:45 PM
It was always my understanding the VIC and WFC combination could yield approximately 3 LpM of gas at very low input power.  This gas however lacks the "quality" to actually run the little four cylinder VW engine with any significant power and may not even be able to idle the engine (from my experience).

I'm not sure if it's the EEC or not, but there is some component that drastically improves the fuel quality of the gas coming out of the WFC.  This component has always been the holy grail in my book, simply because one should be able to attach a brute force dry to its input and get a fuel gas on the exit that can do some real work in an ICE.  I had thought for years this component was the one having all the LEDs inside it.  Without this component the fuel gas simply doesn't have the thermo-explosive energy to really get a piston engine to run properly.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 11th, 2015, 01:35 AM
Ed Mitchell from TrueGreenSolutions has built the EEC into the Gas Processor and we have operated it 2 years ago.

The Gas Processor is the missing link to efficiency.

(But) To operate efficient the VIC transformer must work the correct way. We have to learn the design the hard way thru implementing the VIC to a water cell first and that leads to the know how needed to vary the VIC to Gas Processor usage.

Question to check your detailed knowledge: who knows how the VIC high voltage output signal has to look like to make the Gas Processor work correctly and why?

it may help to think about the aspect that using a VIC to drive a water cell is much different from driving a Gas Processor.

But what do both modi operandi have in common :huh:

Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 11th, 2015, 01:48 AM
Stan used a stack of Gas Processors to extract one layer of electrons after the other.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 11th, 2015, 06:14 PM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on April 11th, 2015, 01:35 AM
Ed Mitchell from TrueGreenSolutions has built the EEC into the Gas Processor and we have operated it 2 years ago.

The Gas Processor is the missing link to efficiency.

(But) To operate efficient the VIC transformer must work the correct way. We have to learn the design the hard way thru implementing the VIC to a water cell first and that leads to the know how needed to vary the VIC to Gas Processor usage.

Question to check your detailed knowledge: who knows how the VIC high voltage output signal has to look like to make the Gas Processor work correctly and why?

it may help to think about the aspect that using a VIC to drive a water cell is much different from driving a Gas Processor.

But what do both modi operandi have in common :huh:
Yes.. very important.. the gas processor..

I dont think Ed ever showed the gas processor in action? complete with the EEC?

This is were Stan I think confuses us all....
he gives multiple fancy names to similar devices...

example:  does anyone know the difference between "The Hydrogen Gas Gun & the "Gas porcesor?

See according to Memo WFC 420 pg 1-10
this is what he says.
"The Hydogen Gas Gun" is the Electron extraction process....

the process is composed of an electron extraction circuit  figure 1-14 and  Gas resonant cavity... figure 1-17
basicly two main components...

This not to be confused with the "Gas Procesor"...

they look alike , sound alike but altogher different...
the Gas Processor preps the ambient air in for combustion..

The "Gas Gun" with (EEC) directly affects the actual gases liberated from water bath.

now this is an important statement.. found in pg 1-12
The "Hydrogen Gas Gun" can be reduced to the size of an auto spark plug!

meaning that according to his defenition.... the (EEC) would be required as a component to the "Electron Extraction process" pg 1=10

now this all falls under one main term or topic that he describes as the Hydrogen Fracturing Process.
not to be confused with the Water Fracturing process..lol...

ok here is my brief expl of stans design...process.

#1 Electrical Polarization process.. pg 1-7
this is were he actually limits the current with electronics and fracture the water....

#2 Electron Extraction Process..pg 1-9
this  process, combined with first is what I personaly  belive takes the water into ionized state.

now this ionized gas.... is what he reintroduces in the "resonant cavity" that is what we know as wfc lol..
and this causes "particle impact"...  this is why  suposedly his Resonat Cavity  is suposed to yeild an
exponential rate of gas unlike other cells.

ok i will atttempt to answer your question...
this is just my  opinon ... i dont have any  hard evidence for this statement.

im thinking ther is sopused to be a trigered  step voltage increase to the VIC.
similar to switch- off coil array figure 7-13
video bellow look at around 3:34... i try to explain sequencial trigered step voltage increase....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4082392553&feature=iv&list=UU095jfI446MK9VoLnAJKwRw&src_vid=99V-kr_8zio&v=99V-kr_8zio#t=4m43s

and during swicht off... we are supoposed to apply the (EEC)

and if we are using this specific system its soposed to be a "Water Drop"
This is what i think is part of problem with Ed VIC..

He mentioned he has high voltage at cell...yet not enough...
If he were to apply same VIC network to small "water drop" and during switch off
phase applyes (EEC) .. The water drop may actually ignite,,,off course he would need
a WFC Injector.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: firepinto on April 11th, 2015, 06:34 PM
In Stan's 11 cell system, the positive and negative wire of the VIC Primary Coil are both controlled by transistors.  One transistor is responsible for the pulse train, while the other transistor is responsible for the voltage amplitude.   The pulse train amplitude stays the same through out the process.  The design intent was to limit the amount of gas produced.  There was also a toggle switch to bypass the voltage amplitude transistor, and supply direct 12 Volts to always produce maximum gas output.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: brettly on April 13th, 2015, 11:55 AM
I think the injector unit only splits water then hho directly into the engine.
There is a reason why I think it: I was experimenting with ultrasonic water foggers, the fog was produced inside a plastic bottle which was sealed, the water mist only exited via one plastic tube, the plastic bottle was pressurised slightly with an aquarium water pump.
I used a syringe needle in one experiment to see if the water mist would go through a hollow needle ( common size used to inject humans). It turns out there is a minimum size orifice where the water mist will recombine back into liquid water before exiting the orifice.( i.e. in that experiment no water mist came out the needle, only droplets of water!)
I conclude that with stans injectors, he premixes the exhaust gas/ambient air/water with an atomisier type setup...............once that goes into the voltage zone ( 1/100th space) it turns back into liquid water, not droplets anymore.
Stans injector system developed from his electrical circuit where liquid water between two electrodes used the capacitance of the water as part of the circuit.
The injector is no different, its still using water in its liquid form between concentric electrodes, its not in droplet form once it enters the voltage zone. Thats my conclusion anyhow.
The effect of hho bubbles within the voltage zone I have no idea, but I did find one academic paper that found the bubbles increase the resistance between electrodes ( sorry I didn't save the link to the paper). I would have thought hho bubbles would decrease the resistance between electrodes, maybe its fortuitous.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on April 23rd, 2015, 05:58 PM
Other work  jj thomson. hydrogen only has one electron.

In 1905, Thomson discovered the natural radioactivity of potassium.[16]

In 1906, Thomson demonstrated that hydrogen had only a single electron per atom. Previous theories allowed various numbers of electrons.



How do they remove electrons from an atom?
How do chemist and physicist strip electron from an atom? how are different atoms electrically charged? for example how would you electrically charge a stable oxygen atom?
Update: can these charged atoms harm a person if they are exposed to them?
Follow
2 answers

Best Answer:  You can simply heat the gas, .e.g. by passing a large current through it. The collisions between atoms knock off electrons. The charge on each ion depends on how many electrons have been knocked off.

The positive ions can them be directed where you want, using an electric field.

E.g. see link.
Source(s): http://www.globalspec.com/learnmore/manu...
Steve4Physics · 3 years ago
0
Thumbs up
0
Thumbs down
Comment
Report Abuse

    ?
    According to Albert Einsteins theory on the Photoelectric Effect, the photon energy of a high enough energy source will exhibit the nature of a particle; hence you can calculate the photon energy with the equation E=hf. If you shine UV light at a single atom by placing the atom on the head of a needle, you can remove an electron, and capture it in a matchbox. This will enable the atom to the positively charged, or become a cation. Moreover, if you remove the electron this way, the electron will have a velocity, and therefore you can calculate its kinetic energy, which you could use to estimate the energy it potentially had within the atom.
    Source(s): The Sauce
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 24th, 2015, 12:54 AM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 11th, 2015, 06:14 PM
...
ok i will atttempt to answer your question...
this is just my  opinon ... i dont have any  hard evidence for this statement.

im thinking ther is sopused to be a trigered  step voltage increase to the VIC.
similar to switch- off coil array figure 7-13
video bellow look at around 3:34... i try to explain sequencial trigered step voltage increase....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4082392553&feature=iv&list=UU095jfI446MK9VoLnAJKwRw&src_vid=99V-kr_8zio&v=99V-kr_8zio#t=4m43s

and during swicht off... we are supoposed to apply the (EEC)

and if we are using this specific system its soposed to be a "Water Drop"
This is what i think is part of problem with Ed VIC..

He mentioned he has high voltage at cell...yet not enough...
If he were to apply same VIC network to small "water drop" and during switch off
phase applyes (EEC) .. The water drop may actually ignite,,,off course he would need
a WFC Injector.
@Heuristicobfuscation
ok, you were the one and only one to give an answer to that question :)

@all
following the thread shows that not all of us are really communicating but instead putting  individual statements  into the sequence no matter whether it fits or not ...

... however

we used a high voltage ignition coil (>50KV) connected to inner and outer electrode of the gas processor.

once coil primary was pulsed DC the voltage from the secondary thru the diode at the gas processor instantaneously rose to 50 KV and stayed constant DC. that´s obvious because there is no load (or extreme high) resistance thru air betweeen the electrodes.

Stan wanted to break the electron bond and with DC voltage he could not reach that. and without pulsing the electron extraction also doesn´t work.

so the answer is: an ignition coil can´t produce the pulsed voltage for the gas processor because it only has a primary and a secondary and it´s lacking the chokes (behind the diode) and the bifilar windings and the magnetic coupling.

so the most important answer is that the pulsing at the gas processor electrodes is created by internal sharp edged AC voltage generation within the VIC itself so that the output voltage swings between +Max and 0 or even between Max+ and Max- no matter whether there is a load connected or not
a load can be resistive or capacitive, doesn´t matter at all.

that´s the same for the water VIC. but the water resistance makes it easier to make the voltage output pulse by the water´s resistance working against the capacitance.

Result: no correct VIC, no fun ...
 
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 24th, 2015, 01:31 AM
so we can see that the VIC knowledge will / the VIC solved will bring the breakthru/turnaround for that technology.

At the moment there are very few people working on VIC build. As far as I know Ronnie, Ed and nav.

Ronnie told a year ago that his VIC is working fine now and I personally feel so sad that he doesn´t share that knowledge with the community. For a year since then we have built one VIC configuration after the other, always getting to a point of fail and much cost could have been avoided by sharing that knowledge. personally I expect that once the Ronnie´s and Neal´s Stan Meyer full replication goes viral his VIC also will have some problems and then it will take more time and more time to solve. over the years we have not found magnetics experts here, nav seems to be the one with advanced know how, and this VIC part really would need some sharing of know how.

 so ... @Ronnie
please think once more about publishing details of your VIC implementation and results
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on April 24th, 2015, 07:03 PM
electron connection is interesting right? you want to strip off electron from a hydrogen gas right.. but wait a minute what else can you do with a corona discharge? the answer is extract electrons directly from air, causing any spark gap operated devise to produce more power..

what does the spark gap trigger, the extraction devise, and  a hho cell really do? it can increase energy in a circuit..

but a corona devise in vacuum can cause ozone to be produced. can cause election avalanches in spark gap triggers. or simply charging capacitors.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Matt Watts on April 24th, 2015, 09:08 PM
Quote from freethisone on April 24th, 2015, 07:03 PM
but a corona devise in vacuum can cause ozone to be produced.
So you can make ozone in a vacuum?  Hmmm.  I'd have to see that to believe it.   :dodgy:
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on April 24th, 2015, 10:43 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on April 24th, 2015, 09:08 PM
So you can make ozone in a vacuum?  Hmmm.  I'd have to see that to believe it.   :dodgy:
im trying to describe a vacuum tube.. sorry..  vacuum tube has a vacuum but still a spark crosses a gap.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on April 24th, 2015, 11:05 PM
here is an experiment, use electron circuit to create a conduit, and in the conduit have venture tubes, use a small cpu fan for circulation. enclose it in a sealed box. plexi..

now u have a second box, with a 3 inch hole were the fan goes in.its at the bottom of second box, and empties into the the second box that is on top. also in the second box we add a spark gap to tes for spark gap increases as a direct effect of increasing energy output. by the creation of ions, and electric break down.

in box number one that is below the first you have enclosed your electron corona field to condition the volume of gas that you choose.  later we will include carbon smoke, or vapour fro ordinary gas to prove the power of  charging atoms, and increasing the volume of fuel by adding ionic charges to the mix.

i can use pm magnets if i choose to separate the charges at the venturi tubes. to prove a concept that rare gas, can be created and used for direct current.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 26th, 2015, 01:50 PM






For some time ive tried to reconsile the mathematical fact that given a secondary voltage state, the resistance has to rise!
according to established laws we are aware of.  (volts = √watts × ohms)

this arguments and reasonings can be found here:  http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2119.0

althogh i dont have any hard evidence.. The following has helped me in my internal tough strugle....
I know that resistance has to rise!!

the problem has been how  is this possible?
how can the water resistance rise?

going back and forth in Stans extensive writhings... this is what has recently hit me..

#1That nobody has replicated the true (EEC)

#2 That this is possibly what may hold the anwswer to the (volts = √watts × ohms) Rise of Resistance!


usualy there is a balance played out in the electrodes...
The (EEC) is creating an unbalalance.
becouse the internal interaction of the water is no longer bieng allowd to fully develop as electrolosis.
another form of chemical interaction is occuring...
that is what Stan refers as "Particle Bombartment"  he reintroduces the liberated gas into the sperical cavity back into water bath and continualy applyies the (EEC).. 

there is a possibilty that due to the lack of internal electrical disispatioin.. that the resistance is rising due to building up of  execisve built up of  "unipolar charged particles" ( less electons are made available and more positive ions are introduced)

example:   if all of the charges are built up positve then they will repel the anode and saturate the charge.
the diode will prevent unwanted diff in charge to flow.. and the switchoff network from the (EEC) will suffocate any remainder
chatodic charge. from within the water bath...

As the cycles continue ... we can see that the saturation effect will cause a great increase in resistance!
also the Saturation effect will cause a built up of charge... possible giving rise to "Step charge Phenomenon" That Stan would
continualy mention...  this is another mistery possible explained by the (EEC) . That is: how was the capacitor charging in ever increasing potential if the source of secondary can only due so much?
 To me it seems that the introduction of more charged particels was permiting this arrangement to occur :
 that is by means of reclyling the liberated gasses back into the water bath :exclamation:

At one point in time durring the gate off cycle an opening will occur in  the diode that allows the internal charges to "equalze" producing great amount of electrostatic voltage potential...
this may very well be  the great stress undergone by remainding molecules undergoing "switch off' at withc point a great amount of
electrons would colide with existing anode charged particles producing great stress among water.

Releasing great amounts of Gas that has been energized due to (EEC)







Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: brettly on April 27th, 2015, 01:09 AM
I did read one research paper where they found the bubbles of H and O increase the water resistance, if I can find the paper again I will post a link to it.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 27th, 2015, 02:07 PM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 26th, 2015, 01:50 PM
For some time ive tried to reconsile the mathematical fact that given a secondary voltage state, the resistance has to rise!
according to established laws we are aware of.  (volts = √watts × ohms)

this arguments and reasonings can be found here:  http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2119.0

althogh i dont have any hard evidence.. The following has helped me in my internal tough strugle....
I know that resistance has to rise!!

the problem has been how  is this possible?
how can the water resistance rise?

going back and forth in Stans extensive writhings... this is what has recently hit me..

#1That nobody has replicated the true (EEC)

#2 That this is possibly what may hold the anwswer to the (volts = √watts × ohms) Rise of Resistance!


usualy there is a balance played out in the electrodes...
The (EEC) is creating an unbalalance.
becouse the internal interaction of the water is no longer bieng allowd to fully develop as electrolosis.
another form of chemical interaction is occuring...
that is what Stan refers as "Particle Bombartment"  he reintroduces the liberated gas into the sperical cavity back into water bath and continualy applyies the (EEC).. 

there is a possibilty that due to the lack of internal electrical disispatioin.. that the resistance is rising due to building up of  execisve built up of  "unipolar charged particles" ( less electons are made available and more positive ions are introduced)

example:   if all of the charges are built up positve then they will repel the anode and saturate the charge.
the diode will prevent unwanted diff in charge to flow.. and the switchoff network from the (EEC) will suffocate any remainder
chatodic charge. from within the water bath...

As the cycles continue ... we can see that the saturation effect will cause a great increase in resistance!
also the Saturation effect will cause a built up of charge... possible giving rise to "Step charge Phenomenon" That Stan would
continualy mention...  this is another mistery possible explained by the (EEC) . That is: how was the capacitor charging in ever increasing potential if the source of secondary can only due so much?
 To me it seems that the introduction of more charged particels was permiting this arrangement to occur :
 that is by means of reclyling the liberated gasses back into the water bath :exclamation:

At one point in time durring the gate off cycle an opening will occur in  the diode that allows the internal charges to "equalze" producing great amount of electrostatic voltage potential...
this may very well be  the great stress undergone by remainding molecules undergoing "switch off' at withc point a great amount of
electrons would colide with existing anode charged particles producing great stress among water.

Releasing great amounts of Gas that has been energized due to (EEC)
funny reading my own post and cheking for  errors... I noticed the following....


This mistery:   the one were voltage and Resistance rise and current falls...
all this time I havent been paying attention but it seems that this effect mimics whats called a "Negative Resister"

According to Wiki;

"In electronics, negative resistance (NR)[4] is a property of some electrical circuits and devices in which an increase in voltage across the device's terminals results in a decrease in electric current through it.

This is in contrast to an ordinary resistor in which an increase of applied voltage causes a proportional increase in current due to Ohm's law, resulting in a positive resistance.[8] While a positive resistance consumes power from current passing through it, a negative resistance produces power.[9][10] Under certain conditions it can increase the power of an electrical signal, amplifying it"


Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:10 PM
Interesting catch with the negative resistance.  I did a quick google and found the Gunn diode: 

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/RadCom/part5/page1.html

I'm curious about the formula for Dynamic Resistance, where OHMs law can not really apply on it's own, but instead use the formula r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable.

Also Stan named one of this devices the Hydrogen Gas Gun, and it really has no resemblance of a gun.  Coincidence?  Can we make a Stainless tube set into a Gunn Diode?

I also thought this was interesting in the attached photo of the current sine wave, which one looks the most like step charging? :thinking:
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:15 PM
Page 2 has some nice info too, and a sketch of a microwave resonant cavity.....

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/RadCom/part5/page2.html
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:29 PM
More interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPATT_diode
Quote
Principle of operation

If a free electron with sufficient energy strikes a silicon atom, it can break the covalent bond of silicon and liberate an electron from the covalent bond. If the electron liberated gains energy by being in an electric field and liberates other electrons from other covalent bonds then this process can cascade very quickly into a chain reaction producing a large number of electrons and a large current flow. This phenomenon is called impact avalanche.
It seems the scientific term for the product of Stan's Electron Extraction is probably "electron hole".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 27th, 2015, 08:16 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:10 PM
Interesting catch with the negative resistance.  I did a quick google and found the Gunn diode: 

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/RadCom/part5/page1.html

I'm curious about the formula for Dynamic Resistance, where OHMs law can not really apply on it's own, but instead use the formula r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable.

Also Stan named one of this devices the Hydrogen Gas Gun, and it really has no resemblance of a gun.  Coincidence?  Can we make a Stainless tube set into a Gunn Diode?

I also thought this was interesting in the attached photo of the current sine wave, which one looks the most like step charging? :thinking:
yes the picture detailing negative resistance .defenitly shows a "step charge or increase in osilation"
Quote from firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:29 PM
More interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPATT_diode
It seems the scientific term for the product of Stan's Electron Extraction is probably "electron hole".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole
yes in one of stans comments he says the following :  "The Hydogen Gas Gun" is the Electron extraction process"....
wich is part of reason im searching this area....that is the (EEC)

I have to say i havent been this exited in a while. :excited:..now we are able to see a potential mechanism in which resistance can
rise!.... even dou im sure there are pletny of erors in my last post.. at least now we have a working formula...a potential if you will to
explain the rise of resistance!.... great...

already i can see the big obstacles.....

#1 Clearly identifing the source of the R  rise.
my quess is  "The Hydrogen  Gas  Gun"  or as stan defines is the "Electron extraction process"

#2 Selecting the right methode of  reproducing a "Hydrogen gas gun":
not to be confused with "gas processor" or a "minuture gas gun" such as (wfci).
Here is were things get really interesting.......
before Stan started building his latest dune buggy with the (wfci) he had experimented with the "sperical resonant cavity" and interfaced it with the "Electron extraction process" ... this I think is what promped him to design the (WFCI).   
the problem is we are missing this peace of the puzzle... there are only bits and peaces left from those experiments.. the only solid stuff we have to go by is his not  so in cronological order writhings......

we have pictues and writings... also comentary such as once he mentioned that he had a terible explosion in his garrage..

wich leads me to number

#3  safety..
Stan was a smart cokie.. why did it explode?
dont know the time line... maybe this lead him to the spark arrestor? or maybe he had it?
or could it be he was applying the VIC to the liberated Gas?
well I dont know the answer either way we need to be carefull and extremly safe if we are to go down this path..

although this is how I belive it went down....

#1 he used the VIC to split water...
then recyled liberated gas back into cell with (VIC/EEC).

#2 then had multiple stage (EEC) within the ("sperical resonat cavity")
wich formed the "Hydrogen gas gun"

#3 then he would pass this through the "Gas processor"

this is were i think he got divided.... in efforts... at one point he is building this stuff for  military applications...wich if im not mistaken
i think he got a gag order or limited on how he would share certain aspects of his tech... (please correct me if im wrong here)..

Then he is looking for a "retrofit" system for vehicles....

so he embarkes on miniturizing the "Hydrogen gas gun" into the "water spark plug"

when we read all his writhings.. it tells us a story... I think we need to understand the whole story ..
I am not claiming to know the story... just realizing that it is very deep.. and after some time of reasearch
I can see myself compiling more and more info on this vast journey....

If I can convince myself that this is somewhat accurate...
then next level of experiments are going to be alot more interesting......

see I have been limited in experiments thinking the "holy grail"  or "secret ingredient" was in a small spectrum of builds and experiments.....

I keeped performing the same experimetns hoping for differnt results....brushed off the other deep stuff thinking that it wasnt
nessesary. ie (Hydrogen Gas gun,EEC)

Maybe its time for next level..


Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: brettly on April 27th, 2015, 09:02 PM
firepinto posted
r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable

The d can be ignored, its mathematical symbol. Basically you have r = V/I
Thats ohms law, a basic formula for circuits. The same formula can be written:
r = v/i  or v = r/i  or   i = v/r

If you ever see a 'd' or a small triangle in same position as the d , you can ignore them.
The 'd' or small triangle means " change in" , so for your formula r = dv/di  its saying
the resistance is directly proportional to the "change in" voltage ( i.e. as the voltage goes up the resistance goes up, or vis versa as the voltage goes down the resistance goes down)
and
the resistance is inversely proportional to the current ( i.e. as the resistance goes up the current goes down, or vis versa, as the resistance goes down the current goes up).

confusing? if your not mathematically minded then best to read up on ohmns law and try to understand some examples that use the formula.

I'm quite enjoying your information on eec etc
Do you know what einstein got the noble prize for? most people would think relativity....but....
he got a noble prize for research on the photoelectric effect. When light of a certain wavelength is shone onto a metal surface, if its at the correct wavelength it can knock off an electron from the surface of the metal.
Stan is using red leds I assume to give some energy to electrons in the water, since water absorbs well in the infrared frequencies. I'm not familiar with the eec or its function. Maybe he
is using the red leds to energise the hydrogen? Sorry I haven't read up on the eec.
Just keep in mind there is the photoelectric effect also, where light can be used to free an electron from a metal surface.....I have no idea if that plays a role in the eec.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 27th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Quote from brettly on April 27th, 2015, 09:02 PM
firepinto posted
r = dV/dI.  What the heck is the d variable

The d can be ignored, its mathematical symbol. Basically you have r = V/I
Thats ohms law, a basic formula for circuits. The same formula can be written:
r = v/i  or v = r/i  or   i = v/r

If you ever see a 'd' or a small triangle in same position as the d , you can ignore them.
The 'd' or small triangle means " change in" , so for your formula r = dv/di  its saying
the resistance is directly proportional to the "change in" voltage ( i.e. as the voltage goes up the resistance goes up, or vis versa as the voltage goes down the resistance goes down)
and
the resistance is inversely proportional to the current ( i.e. as the resistance goes up the current goes down, or vis versa, as the resistance goes down the current goes up).

confusing? if your not mathematically minded then best to read up on ohmns law and try to understand some examples that use the formula.

I'm quite enjoying your information on eec etc
Do you know what einstein got the noble prize for? most people would think relativity....but....
he got a noble prize for research on the photoelectric effect. When light of a certain wavelength is shone onto a metal surface, if its at the correct wavelength it can knock off an electron from the surface of the metal.
Stan is using red leds I assume to give some energy to electrons in the water, since water absorbs well in the infrared frequencies. I'm not familiar with the eec or its function. Maybe he
is using the red leds to energise the hydrogen? Sorry I haven't read up on the eec.
Just keep in mind there is the photoelectric effect also, where light can be used to free an electron from a metal surface.....I have no idea if that plays a role in the eec.
thanks for your post...

yes the light wave has important role in the "Hydrogen gas gun" or "Electron extraction process"  as Stan would say..

The  "Electron extraction process"  is composed of multilayer system....

Starts of with what Stan calles the "Electrical Polarization Process" pg 1-7

This process is limited in voltage level that it can reach without going into heavy amp consumption...
 see post above were he has picture of data time line..
see pat # 4,798,661    there he explians the evoluton of the attempts he has at limiting current when applying voltage.
he explains how applying differnt levels of tech he started to acheive higer levels of voltage and lower levels of current...
from using resistors,variale resistors,pulse trains,gates, cavity wave lenths, pulse voltage amplitude, pulse voltage frequency etc...

all of that only reached small fraction of where he wanted to be....
that is in a state of "gas ionization"  pg 1-8

its not in his writhing that he starts talking realy big gas and energy  yeild until one runs into the "Electron extractjion process"

The primary consisting of a circuit called the "Electron extraction circuit"and the (VIC) used in a cavity called the "Sperical resonant cavity"

in wich he would recycle back into water bath...
then he would stage level the gas into other resonat cavity that just had the electrodes and the (EEC)(VIC) present...
used to "extract" electrons ... in essence charge the gas... that is "Ionize"

The last stage was to pass it thrue a "Gas processor"  witch is the one that has the led lights.
This would complete in essence the "Hydrogen Gas Gun"

and yes as you had stated this light process would probaly knock of any left over electrons....

this is what we do know.... a photon will increase the energy of an electron into higher orbit or valence shell..
so yes in essence as stan would say it was aiding in the electron extraction.. becouse there are so many levels it can reach
before it detaches and releases the energy in the form of current or "elecron beam or gun"   this is why the (EEC) has a
"grid" on the circuit ...and its to catch the electron and consuming in circuit... other wise it would go elsewhere. like in a magnetron
or chatode ray tube it can be dirrected like a "gun" but instead Stan was collecting it .....and consuming it in circut.

and this was the precursor to the "Water fuel cell injector" in which he miniturized the "HYdrogen gas gun"  into the size of a spark plug..

This last stament can be found at  pg 1-12


also forgot to mention... in some drawing he does show the "laser light" as an option during the "Electrical Polarization Process" directed in water bath..
althogh as in most of his major experiments this info is limited..



Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 28th, 2015, 03:42 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 27th, 2015, 05:29 PM
More interesting stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMPATT_diode
It seems the scientific term for the product of Stan's Electron Extraction is probably "electron hole".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_hole
electron holes play an important role in crystal and semiconductor technology like mosfets, transistors, integrated circuits. base material is artificially modified to create these electron holes and that way amplification and switching and charge storage can be realized. electron holes are the fundament for leverage processes.

assuming that water and steel are no semiconductors (there was an interesting idea here at the forum to take water similar to a semiconductor) electron holes won´t play a role here.

the d or triangle symbol are a part of calculus with differentiation over time. taking water with bubbles  gives a nonlinear resistor because short timelslots without bubbles give lower resistance than short timeslots with bubbles in the water. so you can´t calculate a fixed resistance by applying ohms law. instead you have to break down your calculation into very short timeframes (theoretically timeless points in time, in reality ns timeframes), calculate each dV/dI and calculate an average over time for the whole period. that´s the way instruments work to calculate capacitance/inductance. therefore they need to pulse the test object.

now you can see that Stan´s technology must be looked at at detail to understand it and it must  be controlled at detail to get it working.

so dV/dI really has to be taken into account instead of V/I to understand what´s really going on - to understand the dynamic behaviour of the system. imagine what it means to have a non-linear and non-predictable resistance/capacitance in series to a bifilar wound multi-coil transformer ...

can you see the implications for resonance, magnetic field changes, voltage and current?

that system will operate very dynamic, maybe chaotic and the controlling instance will of course be the pulse generator.

that said first now should make absoluteley clear why a full-control pulse generator as PGen 2.0 (http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2065.msg28186#msg28186) is needed instead of simple 555 or 4046.

with those trivial solutions you won´t reach the goal to analyze in depth the dynamics of the system and without pll regulation integrating gating (as PGen 2.0 does) you won´t fit Stan´s requirements and so you will fail. did you know that Stan already used a microcontroller system in the 90´s when he was ready to go for industrial production?

no? so take a look at his newsletter making that clear. the old discrete builts from the 80´s did no longer fit his necessities and so he made the switch to microcontrollers (!)

(http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=2425.0;attach=11219)

oops ... something most of us missed?

remember the guy Holbrook manually regulating the gas flow on the buggy during the cruise?

he had to do that manually because there was no other way to regulate gas flow dependent from actual motor condition without microcontroller ...

so where will the outdated replications of discrete circuits from the patents lead to?

they will be a fun project and lead to a basic understanding what is needed else to get the system up and running ;)
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 28th, 2015, 04:11 PM
 something missing?
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 28th, 2015, 04:25 PM
precursor to the WFCI....

some details
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: firepinto on April 29th, 2015, 06:41 PM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on April 28th, 2015, 03:42 AM
did you know that Stan already used a micro-controller system in the 90´s when he was ready to go for industrial production?
I did know that, but the only evidence that I've seen is on the home heating unit.  This unit was designed from the ground up to use a micro-controller.  The problem is that it still has the development equipment plugged on to where the IC chip goes.  My gut feeling says that programming for this unit was still being done or going through troubleshooting phases.  Point being, his old technology worked, while this unit doesn't look like it operated.

I would bet that the WFC injector system also intended to use microprocessors.  But I have a feeling that is in some other collection these days.

Does Pgen currently calculate cell resistance via r=  dV/dI? 
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 29th, 2015, 11:08 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 29th, 2015, 06:41 PM
...
Does Pgen currently calculate cell resistance via r=  dV/dI?
yes, but it doesn´t need to calculate dV/dI. simply by adjusting frequency via PLL using the feedback line it dynamically adjusts immediately to dV/dI. so PGen can balance the system.

the VIC itself takes r=dV/dI of the cell into account by creating an appropriate phase shift
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 29th, 2015, 11:16 PM
Quote from firepinto on April 29th, 2015, 06:41 PM
I did know that, but the only evidence that I've seen is on the home heating unit.
some parts of Stan´s documentation and components have been taken away for sure. obviously the most advanced parts made sense to be hidden from the public. his latest newsletter could not be undone by TPTB. so we know that he did by the newsletters but there is no more evidence ...
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 30th, 2015, 04:41 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 29th, 2015, 06:41 PM
...
Point being, his old technology worked, while this unit doesn't look like it operated.
...
(http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=2425.0;attach=11219)

in his patents from the 80s´ Stan published basic circuitry to claim that kind of technology. once the principle was published and patent granted there was no need for a published circuit design update. nevertheless he had to update his circuit design because his ic based system was not able to implement PLL with gating. It´s almost impossible to plug in 80s technology to upgrade 555/4046 to get it running. you would have to store/buffer the capacitor´s actual voltage level to get his circuit running as needed.
with modern add-ins that should work but it´s much more work than implementing it by using a microcontroller from scratch using his circuit design idea as a template.

Stan first started using mechanical means like rotary switches and alternators. then he switched over to semiconductor electronics and progressed to integrated circuits.

then he entered the eprom stage emulating logic dependencies by using address lines and data output lines of small sized eproms. he did in a basic way what modern FPGAs can do.

Then he migrated to microcontroller usage and now his competence was no longer visible on a pcb but was hardcoded into a microcontroller rom.

that´s the last step of technology, it was taken away and that is the step we should jump in and continue his work ...
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 30th, 2015, 05:00 AM
the vic is only the starting point for control. now imagine adding in the pulsed gas processor with it´s laser leds and eec in stacks of 4 or more ...

imagine the number of knobs and the multitude of discrete integrated circuits to operate and synchronize them all together.

add in temperature and pressure dependencies and feedback information from actual motor control systems via CANBUS or else ...

.. no means to store parameters in the discrete digital world ...

things have become more complex today, not easier ...

... but means to build have become much easier to use ...
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 30th, 2015, 05:12 AM
this thread talkes about EEC. wherever you put in the EEC in the system, into the cell or into the gas processor, any case the EEC must be pulsed synchronous to the excitation pulse.

so far - so good.

Stan says that the EEC must be active, when excitation is off, easy to realize of course, but what if the timescheme is more complex to optimize the effect???

to explore these effects you need flexible tools. scope, power supply and flexible pulse generator, ...

otherwise you will soon have to become a soldering magican ... :)
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on April 30th, 2015, 07:16 PM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 28th, 2015, 04:11 PM
something missing?
yes the whole negative electrode lol....

where did it go?   :whistle:

well acording to Stan you dont need it... :exclamation:

this is very interesting.....

think about it :thinking:

seriously this is something else....

Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Matt Watts on May 1st, 2015, 04:01 AM
Look familiar?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ypxOmKHUL._AA1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on May 1st, 2015, 04:34 AM
Quote from firepinto on April 29th, 2015, 06:41 PM
I did know that, but the only evidence that I've seen is on the home heating unit.  This unit was designed from the ground up to use a micro-controller.  The problem is that it still has the development equipment plugged on to where the IC chip goes.
...
Once more "electronics and software" from Newsletter 11A.

Noone would prepare such a setup for a fraud ...
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on May 2nd, 2015, 07:38 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on May 1st, 2015, 04:01 AM
Look familiar?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ypxOmKHUL._AA1500_.jpg)
I find this amazingly interesting.....

I was trying to find how he was "accelerating" water in tubes for particle impact.
this is how i ran into that picture (see bellow)..although its supposed to be for the "steam resonator" he used same drawings as for the spherical resonant cavity..

Something I don't understand is why would he have "amp restrictive" circuit pulsed onto single electrode?

how is current going to be consumed anyways if there is  no oposite electrode?

This  should be a simple experiment in which i could try..
 just trying to understand concept.

Almost seems like an antenna.
instead of brodcasting radio waves... he was broadcasting. Electrostatic pulses?


Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Matt Watts on May 2nd, 2015, 10:06 PM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on May 2nd, 2015, 07:38 PM
I find this amazingly interesting.....

Almost seems like an antenna.
instead of brodcasting radio waves... he was broadcasting. Electrostatic pulses?
Why not.  If you can charge an electroscope and have the foil plates separate, seems reasonable you could charge water and have the molecules do the same thing.  Molecules form to share electrons right?  So give the molecules lots of electrons and they should no longer need to share.  Seems logical to me, but now we have Stan talking about electron extraction.  Why does that sound backwards?

The thing to keep focused in your mind is that you can have charge without having definite polarity.  A capacitor has two wires.  How many wires does a metal box have?  There are some Russian fellows that really grasp this idea.  I'm still working on it.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 3rd, 2015, 02:11 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on May 2nd, 2015, 10:06 PM
Why not.  If you can charge an electroscope and have the foil plates separate, seems reasonable you could charge water and have the molecules do the same thing.  Molecules form to share electrons right?  So give the molecules lots of electrons and they should no longer need to share.  Seems logical to me, but now we have Stan talking about electron extraction.  Why does that sound backwards?

The thing to keep focused in your mind is that you can have charge without having definite polarity.  A capacitor has two wires.  How many wires does a metal box have?  There are some Russian fellows that really grasp this idea.  I'm still working on it.
i disagree, here is why.  polarity is specific, the neo mags do that, they split the charge carriers,  hence a negative electrode with the positive side as ground,

the force on 2 plates is either attracting or repelling sort to speak. the action of the wires show that effect.


not sure if that helps, one electron is stripped from a hydrogen atom. if you learn how, and its easy you it. all u need is magnets to separate the charges,

if you learn how to do this by electrolysis then u have it. all in one.  you need a blast of 50 kv voltage to saturate the water, it will then go into break down ant the ferrous material become saturated. excess voltages now peals the single electron from the hho atom.away.

sounds simple? well it is if u gra..sp the process. what must occur for a given reaction... cherrs
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Gunther Rattay on May 3rd, 2015, 02:20 PM
Quote from freethisone on May 3rd, 2015, 02:11 PM
sounds simple? well it is if u gra..sp the process. what must occur for a given reaction... cherrs
how do you want to create the 50KV? at what power supply resistance? DC or pulsed? if pulsed at what frequency and duty?
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 3rd, 2015, 03:37 PM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on May 3rd, 2015, 02:20 PM
how do you want to create the 50KV? at what power supply resistance? DC or pulsed? if pulsed at what frequency and duty?
spell check really failed on that last post lol.

here is the theory, but also was done with experiment. im not leading u on a false hunt.

i say the water is not the capacitor

i say to use pulsed dc you should use a common ground.  i say water is like iron bar. if i saturate the core, well it simply over flows.

i say water is the same way. i say a plate in conjunction with your vic coil or inductor can make it a variable capacitor. now u simply change the size of the plate to accommodate its internal resonance..

so what i am saying is. if it be Stans system is already a pulsed DC, then you should use a common ground wile switching.

the capacitance is all in the inductor, and it would be wise to advance this even further by using capacitor banks in the charging process. step up. variable transformer. you should get the same effect Stan did. if you did not now i say the size of the tank is important. the volume of water.

i say adding salt for testing is a good idea. finally if all had failed i drop a coil of stout wire into the tank, and pulse it as a bias to the original circuit.

therefore it is true the high voltage should overcharge the water, and by that i mean saturate the dielectric., and hence adding capacitance is like adding a variable inductor.

the reason a blast of high voltage at a 3 to 5 second on period off period combined with the normal pulsing operation of the Stan pulsed dc system success would be see. and a great deal learned in the process.

.
i forgot if frequency is a problem could be operated  between 22  to 45 khz but there is my old post in the Edward Michel Vic thread. i think i added a number of patent for understanding its theory.


gunther here is another one of my advancements. , if it be you need to do this for the reason we wind a coil in this manner then that may help answer another question?

reluctance? or a way to equal  or balance.

teach me what else must be done? saturation of dielectric O:-) O:-), charging and discharging plates.. i think its simple,. adding the back of caps should really blow the door of this sheet one and for all...
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Matt Watts on May 3rd, 2015, 03:50 PM
Quote from freethisone on May 3rd, 2015, 03:37 PM
spell check really failed on that last post lol.
As well as the logic and reasoning analyzer.

Show me magnets splitting water.

And adding salt to the water is a really bad idea.

Free, you need to hit the bench and demonstrate what you are saying BEFORE you say it.  Especially when posting in someone else's thread.

This is not easy, period.  If it was, we'd all have it solved by now and fully understand how it works.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 3rd, 2015, 03:53 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on May 3rd, 2015, 03:50 PM
As well as the logic and reasoning analyzer.

Show me magnets splitting water.

And adding salt to the water is a really bad idea.

Free, you need to hit the bench and demonstrate what you are saying BEFORE you say it.  Especially when posting in someone else's thread.

This is not easy, period.  If it was, we'd all have it solved by now and fully understand how it works.
i think i was editing at the time you posted, i am dialectics..  tell me what you dont understand? be specific i really thought i was..
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on May 3rd, 2015, 05:46 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on May 2nd, 2015, 10:06 PM
Why not.  If you can charge an electroscope and have the foil plates separate, seems reasonable you could charge water and have the molecules do the same thing.  Molecules form to share electrons right?  So give the molecules lots of electrons and they should no longer need to share.  Seems logical to me, but now we have Stan talking about electron extraction.  Why does that sound backwards?

The thing to keep focused in your mind is that you can have charge without having definite polarity.  A capacitor has two wires.  How many wires does a metal box have?  There are some Russian fellows that really grasp this idea.  I'm still working on it.
yes good points..

I was thinking same way ..although a static charge can be "polarized"  that is positive or negative..  but it seems logical that he was not introducing electrons into the system.

The method he was using could very well enhance the electron extraction.....
he is using the anode... not the cathode... as a pulsing train.
so assuming this works it would

#1 attract the electrons in the water solution to positive anode.

#2 repel the positive charged oxygen atom witch will carry the molecule..

still thinking about the charge without polarity statement... :thinking:

we do know that the layden jar.... has one electrode.... yet it can exibit multiple charged states..
can the layden jar be charged and yet not exibit a polarity?

if we where to have an equal amount of  negative charge and possittve charge in same layden jar ..then we can
assume that it has net zero charge or no visible charge...
yet it is composed of energized particles that have been ballanced.
looking at it this way i can see that there is a potential for multiple charge states and yet exhibit no polarity....
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Matt Watts on May 3rd, 2015, 11:12 PM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on May 3rd, 2015, 05:46 PM
still thinking about the charge without polarity statement... :thinking:

we do know that the layden jar.... has one electrode.... yet it can exibit multiple charged states..
can the layden jar be charged and yet not exibit a polarity?
I think it can, but referenced to what?

Ken Wheeler says it's, "Charge and Discharge", that is all.  Polarization is an entirely different thing.
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on May 3rd, 2015, 05:46 PM
if we where to have an equal amount of  negative charge and possittve charge in same layden jar ..then we can
assume that it has net zero charge or no visible charge...
yet it is composed of energized particles that have been ballanced.
looking at it this way i can see that there is a potential for multiple charge states and yet exhibit no polarity....
Ah, but the balance, that needn't happen immediately.  So the states of charge and discharge can ring/oscillate.  Picture two spheres with a wire between them connected to both spheres.  Given enough time the two spheres will come to a state of equilibrium, but what happens when you first touch one sphere with a charged body having different potential?  Doesn't the added charge to that sphere first equalize on that sphere and then begin to migrate over to the other?  What if you where to pulse the one sphere?  The process of migration takes time and therefore has a potential for resonance.  So you charge one sphere, it immediately begins to discharge to the other sphere.  Now you discharge the first sphere and the second sphere begins to discharge back to the first sphere.  It's easy to see that you can keep the two spheres out of equilibrium indefinitely.

Now what would happen if we thought of the two spheres as ions, O and HO?  Could we create a similar resonance where each cycle increases the difference in charge (step charging)?  At some point it seems logical to me the bond (wire) between the O and OH ion snaps.  At that point you no longer have a water molecule.  The trick to me in all this is to keep the O and OH ions from reforming back to a water molecule.  If we can get the Os to bond together as O2, then we can start working on the ionic bond of OH and get it to split.  Lot to do here to get to the fuel gas we are after.

So lets suppose we heterodyne two resonant signals on the water.  One targets the O and OH bond; the other the O and H bond.  Now all we need to do is to make sure we target all of the water so there is no place within the device these bonds can recombine.

So back to Electron Extraction...

In one of Eric Dollard's lectures, he talks about what an electron is.  Basically it's the snap when a single piece within an electric field gives up.  The snap and creation of an electron, in his terminology, is the destruction of energy.  Lets think about this as it would apply to Stan Meyer's Electron Extraction.  If we are extracting electrons, there are two ways to think about this phenomena.  One, we are avoiding the creation of electrons or snaps within the electric field.  Or two, we are allowing the snaps to happen, but are immediately rebuilding the electric field, since for every snap and creation of an electron, we lose energy in the field.  I tend to think in the case of turning water into gas, we are allowing/encouraging these snaps, but we rebuild the field rapidly.  The creation of the electrons are the breaking of bonds.  Very different terminology I understand.  So when we create an electron (a snap in the electric field), we break a bond, rebuild the field and extract the gas.  You can think of this gas now containing the electron or a tiny portion of the energy that was in the field to start with.  So thinking this way, we really aren't directly extracting "electrons", instead we are extracting the product of the electric field breaking at a discrete point in the electric field.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 4th, 2015, 12:51 AM
 Re: Transformer core saturation from overvoltage
winnie Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 652
Loc: boston, ma    
WFO,

1) No.
2) Depends upon the transformer.

I find it easier to think of things from the opposite direction: what is it that _limits_ the current flow in a transformer, both during normal and saturated conditions.

Start by considering an 'air core' inductor, simply a coil of wire. This has essentially no saturation issues. I'll also start by talking about applied DC voltage, not AC.

The voltage applied to this _inductor_ will act to change the current flowing through the inductor. But when you have a changing current through the coil, you get a corresponding changing magnetic field developed by the coil. This changing magnetic field induces a voltage in the coil, and if we ignore resistance, we will find that the magnetic field is changing at just the right rate to induce a voltage which balances out the applied voltage.

Put another way: the rate change of current through an inductor is proportional to the applied voltage and inversely proportional to the inductance.

When you put an iron core in the inductor, you change the relationship between current flowing through the coil and magnetic flux developed. But you don't change the relation between change in magnetic flux and induced voltage. What happens is that you need less current to develop the same magnetic flux, and thus less _change in current_ to develop the same voltage. Net result: with the same coil and the same applied voltage, the current flow increases more slowly.

Put another way: the addition of the iron core increases the inductance of the coil.

But the core has an issue: saturation. Above a certain magnetic flux density, the boost in magnetic flux caused by the core starts to diminish rapidly. This means that once you reach saturation, the inductor will act more like an air core inductor. With the same applied voltage, the current flowing through the coil increases rapildy.

Put another way, when the core saturates, the inductance of the coil goes down.

Looking at applied AC voltages: At any _instant_ in time, the rate change of current in the coil depends upon the applied voltage and the inductance of the coil. But with AC, the applied voltage is constantly changing, which means that the rate change of current flow will be constantly changing. The current flow at any instant in time is proportional to the _integral_ of the applied voltage, and inversely proportional to the inductance.

Saturation makes the inductance not constant. What happens is that at the peak of the current flow curve in the inductor, the inductance goes down, and the current flow rises more rapidly, so you get pointy tips on the current flow curve.

This saturation current flow is still lagging the applied voltage, and is still reactive power; energy is still being stored in the inductor magnetic field. However this increased current flow is accompanied by increased resistance losses, and thus increased real power consumption by the inductor.

A transformer primary is just an inductor, but with a secondary coil magnetically coupled to the circuit. Any current flowing in the secondary is in some sense subtracting from the magnetic field, thus reducing the 'back emf' in the primary and increasing the primary current flow to compensate. The additional primary current flow means more voltage drop in the primary versus any resistance, thus reducing the voltage that the magnetic flux needs to act against. So as you increase secondary current, if there is resistance in the primary circuit, the peak magnetic flux and magnetizing current will go down. The significance of this will depend upon circumstances.

Note that when a motor is in locked rotor, you essentially have a transformer with a _shorted_ secondary. Lots of current will flow, but it is in phase with the supply voltage, delivering real, rather than reactive power.

-Jon

source  http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/130154/Transformer_core_saturation_fr.html

hope that helps see pdf for more info.  http://www.arresterworks.com/ArresterFacts_files/ArresterFacts%20010%20-%20The%20Switching%20Surge%20and%20Arresters.pdf
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 4th, 2015, 04:05 AM
Dielectric strength
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Dielectric saturation)

In physics, the term dielectric strength has the following meanings:

    Of an insulating material, the maximum electric field that a pure material can withstand under ideal conditions without breaking down (i.e., without experiencing failure of its insulating properties).
    For a specific configuration of dielectric material and electrodes, the minimum applied electric field (i.e., the applied voltage divided by electrode separation distance) that results in breakdown.

The theoretical dielectric strength of a material is an intrinsic property of the bulk material and is dependent on the configuration of the material or the electrodes with which the field is applied. The "intrinsic dielectric strength" is measured using pure materials under ideal laboratory conditions. At breakdown, the electric field frees bound electrons. If the applied electric field is sufficiently high, free electrons from background radiation may become accelerated to velocities that can liberate additional electrons during collisions with neutral atoms or molecules in a process called avalanche breakdown. Breakdown occurs quite abruptly (typically in nanoseconds), resulting in the formation of an electrically conductive path and a disruptive discharge through the material. For solid materials, a breakdown event severely degrades, or even destroys, its insulating capability.

Factors affecting apparent dielectric strength

    it decreases with increased sample thickness.[1] (see "defects" below)
    it decreases with increased operating temperature.
    it decreases with increased frequency.
    for gases (e.g. nitrogen, sulfur hexafluoride) it normally decreases with increased humidity.
    for air, dielectric strength increases slightly as humidity increases
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 4th, 2015, 10:10 AM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 9th, 2015, 05:53 PM
Has anyone replicated the Electron Extraction Circuit :huh:

In the videos and speaches..
It seems that Stan is describing a progressive technological achievment..

For example one of his first "achievment"  was being able to limit the current in the water fuell cell bath with the VIC.
but it wasnt till he starts talking about the "Electron Extraction Circuit"  where things realy started to go into high gear.

With the "Electron Extraction Circuit"   and the "resonant cavity cell" he can now achieve  "on demand" gas yeild...
he mentiones this "on demand' couple times in reference to the  "Resonant Cavity Cell" and "Electron Extraction Circuit"
not the VIC!
"Resonant Cavity Cell"....not very effective until we introduce the "Electron Extraction Circuit".

see acording to stan the (EEC) is  what creats the condition for "higher yield" of gas....

The (EEC) in action is what allows the water to enter into a gas ionized state togheter with the resonant cavity :exclamation:

In the Resonant Cavity he talkes about "particle impact".. now upon watching his videos over and over... this is conclusion ive come to ... that the "particle impact"  can only occur when the (EEC) is working properly.

See the (EEC) is the (VIC)..
In other words the (VIC) was a precursur to the (EEC) ...
not forgeting that Stan was using the Kiss methode. 
I think Stan Got his master design and subdivided it into tiny little chunks for the patent office.

This makes it very hard to replicate!

In the Water Fuell Cell demo that  he showed the patent office in witch most of us have  replicated. He does not show  the (EEC) in action!

.. Now the "Resonant Cavity"  im thinking was a precursor to the (WFCI) Water Fuel Cell Injector.

And just like the original "Resonant Cavity" was not functional without the (EEC)  I belive the (WFCI) is not funtional without the
(EEC).

One more insight... the (EEC) is what possibly he was using to alter gas states and testing in the (EPG).

 :thinking: Has anybody out  there replicated this?  This is probably important peace of puzzle..
i think you started a good thread, i also think we answered all of the questions. what is left??   plenty of ways to advance..

???

Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on May 4th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 27th, 2015, 02:07 PM
funny reading my own post and cheking for  errors... I noticed the following....


This mistery:   the one were voltage and Resistance rise and current falls...
all this time I havent been paying attention but it seems that this effect mimics whats called a "Negative Resister"

According to Wiki;

"In electronics, negative resistance (NR)[4] is a property of some electrical circuits and devices in which an increase in voltage across the device's terminals results in a decrease in electric current through it.

This is in contrast to an ordinary resistor in which an increase of applied voltage causes a proportional increase in current due to Ohm's law, resulting in a positive resistance.[8] While a positive resistance consumes power from current passing through it, a negative resistance produces power.[9][10] Under certain conditions it can increase the power of an electrical signal, amplifying it"
well
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on April 27th, 2015, 02:07 PM
funny reading my own post and cheking for  errors... I noticed the following....


This mistery:   the one were voltage and Resistance rise and current falls...
all this time I havent been paying attention but it seems that this effect mimics whats called a "Negative Resister"

According to Wiki;

"In electronics, negative resistance (NR)[4] is a property of some electrical circuits and devices in which an increase in voltage across the device's terminals results in a decrease in electric current through it.

This is in contrast to an ordinary resistor in which an increase of applied voltage causes a proportional increase in current due to Ohm's law, resulting in a positive resistance.[8] While a positive resistance consumes power from current passing through it, a negative resistance produces power.[9][10] Under certain conditions it can increase the power of an electrical signal, amplifying it"
i added a patent that covers this. it was based on using pulsed dc and a shared negative ground. the energy was captured directly from the water, and shuttled back to capacitors, a renewable by product..
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on May 4th, 2015, 11:47 AM
Quote from freethisone on May 4th, 2015, 10:10 AM
i think you started a good thread, i also think we answered all of the questions. what is left??   plenty of ways to advance..

???
ah yes thank you all for your comments .... i am very grateful for this forum..@Rwg..

I hope I never stop asking questions... the day I do would be the day I stop learning.

there is something called "Hive intelligence" and it  only occurs in a collective environment..
I am simply trying to tap into this collective....everybody has something to say..two minds are better than one..
and a "Hive mind" has that much more to offer.

and yes.. we have to learn to filter out the "Buzz" and see the "Dance"
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on May 19th, 2015, 12:47 PM
Go to 1:22:00

Stan mentions the following ... "that for a long time there was two things I  would not discus"

#1  (VIC)
#2  (?) ill let you guys fill this out. lol..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqCaVFWIWQ&list=PLhUKba_vZ9vqJTrCQ1Jzrf1_LzOhWviDP&index=1






Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: Heuristicobfuscation on September 20th, 2015, 04:14 PM
"that for a long time there was two things I  would not discus" he gives his first answer very easliy Then he gets interupted...afterwards he kinda drops the message before he mentions the second key in his technology...

This is what i find interesting....
He clearly says that "they" could not fiqure it out even dou he had his patents posted...


Did you guys catch what his second statement was?

Think about that... if there is something he does not want you to know it is precisely this peace of information!
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on September 20th, 2015, 04:50 PM
umm you do know what a electron extraction circuit iS?

pretty simple look it up on wiki.. lol

oh better yet i posted it a long time ago. look in a real encyclopedia for your answer..


electron extraction lol..

i think the lack of russ doing anything productive for the last 2 years is the reason you dont understand very simple stuff.

sorry but all the info is in front of you. try asking a question...
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on September 20th, 2015, 05:52 PM
Electrowinning
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Electro extracting)
Electrorefining technology converting spent commercial nuclear fuel into metal.

Electrowinning, also called electroextraction, is the electrodeposition of metals from their ores that have been put in solution via a process commonly referred to as leaching. Electrorefining uses a similar process to remove impurities from a metal. Both processes use electroplating on a large scale and are important techniques for the economical and straightforward purification of non-ferrous metals. The resulting metals are said to be electrowon.

In electrowinning, a current is passed from an inert anode through a liquid leach solution containing the metal so that the metal is extracted as it is deposited in an electroplating process onto the cathode. In electrorefining, the anodes consist of unrefined impure metal, and as the current passes through the acidic electrolyte the anodes are corroded into the solution so that the electroplating process deposits refined pure metal onto the cathodes.[1]

Contents

    1 History
    2 Applications
    3 Process
    4 References
    5 External links

History

Electrowinning is the oldest industrial electrolytic process. The English chemist Humphry Davy obtained sodium metal in elemental form for the first time in 1807 by the electrolysis of molten sodium hydroxide.

Electrorefining of copper was first demonstrated experimentally by Maximilian, Duke of Leuchtenberg in 1847.[2]

James Elkington patented the commercial process in 1865 and opened the first successful plant in Pembrey, Wales in 1870.[3] The first commercial plant in the United States was the Balbach and Sons Refining and Smelting Company in Newark, New Jersey in 1883.
Applications

The most common electrowon metals are lead, copper, gold, silver, zinc, aluminium, chromium, cobalt, manganese, and the rare-earth and alkali metals. For aluminium, this is the only production process employed. Several industrially important active metals (which react strongly with water) are produced commercially by electrolysis of their pyrochemical molten salts. Experiments using electrorefining to process spent nuclear fuel have been carried out. Electrorefining may be able to separate heavy metals such as plutonium, caesium, and strontium from the less-toxic bulk of uranium. Many electroextraction systems are also available to remove toxic (and sometimes valuable) metals from industrial waste streams.
Process
Apparatus for electrolytic refining of copper

Most metals occur in nature in their oxidized form (ores) and thus must be reduced to their metallic forms. The ore is dissolved following some preprocessing in an aqueous electrolyte or in a molten salt and the resulting solution is electrolyzed. The metal is deposited on the cathode (either in solid or in liquid form), while the anodic reaction is usually oxygen evolution. Several metals are naturally present as metal sulfides; these include copper, lead, molybdenum, cadmium, nickel, silver, cobalt, and zinc. In addition, gold and platinum group metals are associated with sulfidic base metal ores. Most metal sulfides or their salts, are electrically conductive and this allows electrochemical redox reactions to efficiently occur in the molten state or in aqueous solutions.

Some metals, such as nickel do not electrolyze out but remain in the electrolyte solution. These are then reduced by chemical reactions to refine the metal. Other metals, which during the processing of the target metal have been reduced but not deposited at the cathode, sink to the bottom of the electrolytic cell, where they form a substance referred to as anode sludge or anode slime. The metals in this sludge can be removed by standard pyrorefining methods.

Because metal deposition rates are related to available surface area, maintaining properly working cathodes is important. Two cathode types exist, flat-plate and reticulated cathodes, each with its own advantages. Flat-plate cathodes can be cleaned and reused, and plated metals recovered. Reticulated cathodes have a much higher deposition rate compared to flat-plate cathodes. However, they are not reusable and must be sent off for recycling. Alternatively, starter cathodes of pre-refined metal can be used, which become an integral part of the finished metal ready for rolling or further processing.[1]



believe you me, this is not what i expected to find.  i would simply search electron beam. chin up..
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on September 20th, 2015, 06:00 PM
come to think of it i bet he had dissolved metals in his process,


try using azureite in a plating process. its copper oxide,

he didnt even understand what he was doing.

.
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: massive on September 20th, 2015, 11:43 PM
Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on May 19th, 2015, 12:47 PM
Go to 1:22:00

Stan mentions the following ... "that for a long time there was two things I  would not discus"

#1  (VIC)
#2  (?) ill let you guys fill this out. lol..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqCaVFWIWQ&list=PLhUKba_vZ9vqJTrCQ1Jzrf1_LzOhWviDP&index=1
Ive had a close look at this video before and it looks like the room this group is in, is either a school music room or home private music teacher room , by looking at the books , violin cases and chalk board .
Over here , some schools on week ends allow the rooms to be used for adult learning or community groups . so thats a possibility or it is private but still music room.

"Auckland" is mentioned and the distance , so it is the Hauraki area . Also Stan says "theres a lot of rain" .
My guess is Waiheke island which is where the original green peace members have retired , its that type of place , well at least circa 1990 NZ
   
at the moment I have the original VHS video which is clearer than the digital/internet quality
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on September 21st, 2015, 08:36 AM
Quote from freethisone on September 20th, 2015, 06:00 PM
come to think of it i bet he had dissolved metals in his process,


try using azureite in a plating process. its copper oxide,

he didnt even understand what he was doing.

.
refer tot this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMPbpZ34T2c
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triuranium_octoxide
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: reverandkilljoy on September 24th, 2015, 04:30 AM
Freethisone u have to be kidding man

Electrorefining?

Lmao this is low grade bullPoo....

I know what electron extraction is, its a triangle, of photon oam....

Ive learned a lot since i started studying techyronics

Kal-El abraham has taught me to appriciate and love the equilateral triangle for in those side lengths and 60 deg angles lies the swcret tp our world
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on September 24th, 2015, 10:41 AM
no i meant its called electron beam. it is done by extraction of the current at the point the beam is bombarded..

impy re use the free electrons from the water, re use the energy again.

i understand my English is not good, so i hope that tells u something O:-)..
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: reverandkilljoy on September 24th, 2015, 11:53 PM
electron beam eh?

bombarded by what?

extracted with what?

please go deeper
Title: Re: Electron Extraction Circuit...
Post by: freethisone on September 25th, 2015, 12:13 PM
oh look what i found..
https://www.google.com/patents/US3235647?dq=ininventor:%22Hanks+Charles+W%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBsQ6AEwADgUahUKEwjIod-D8pLIAhXKOT4KHSA8CUg


US4531076  this one is more based on the resonant cavity..