Patent Study: US5191258

Matt Watts

Patent Study: US5191258
« on November 10th, 2014, 05:27 PM »Last edited on November 10th, 2014, 05:51 PM
http://www.google.com/patents/US5191258

Looks to me like an ingenious method of avoiding Lenz Law in a generator.  Instead of a rotating magnetic field that would cause torque on the input shaft when the windings are put under load, we have a device where the shaft simply powers an interrupter of the flux path.  Both the magnet and stator windings remain stationary.

Is this the secret of Sterling Allan's QMoGen phenomena...?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWU12Db_MY#


http://u2.lege.net/newebmasters.com__freeenergy/external_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/ElectromagneticDev/olafberens/olaf.htm


Lynx

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #2, on November 11th, 2014, 11:45 AM »
Wow, a perpetuum mobile!
I so wish I had one.
I also wish I had more faith.

~Russ

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #3, on November 11th, 2014, 11:53 AM »
:)

building my faith back up! it dose help :) ( it is the answer)

~Russ

Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #4, on November 11th, 2014, 02:29 PM »
I'm short of answers here.  My gut says the only way possible to really understand what is going on is to find a generator like the one shown in the video and make the needed modifications.  Seems there is a guy on this forum that has access to a wire EDM machine that has the expertise to make an accurate cut of the core.  Then it's a matter of getting accurate dimensions to make the end plates, drill the core and install studs to hold everything rigid.

Even if the finished modifications do not work, surely this device would still open up avenues for further exploration.  Smudge over at OUR has done some extensive research into the mathematics and written several papers on it.  I really only see one next step that can be taken to find what we are looking for.

We have the boat and the oars, now we need to cross the river.




~Russ

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #8, on November 11th, 2014, 03:15 PM »
lol.

where else is information posted?

looks like i need to do some more research... anyone already spend the time copying what he wrote down in that video?

~Russ

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #9, on November 11th, 2014, 03:34 PM »
he states its is  no BMEF but high Cogging...

so it still has a high drag? hummm...

Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #10, on November 11th, 2014, 05:02 PM »Last edited on November 11th, 2014, 07:28 PM
Quote from ~Russ on November 11th, 2014, 03:34 PM
where else is information posted?

looks like i need to do some more research... anyone already spend the time copying what he wrote down in that video?

he states its is  no BMEF but high Cogging...

so it still has a high drag? hummm...
Cogging doesn't necessarily mean high drag, but it does imply there are permanent magnets.  At least one other has stated the central core contains magnets.  I don't know if this is instead of or in addition to what was the rotor windings.

I went through the video and deciphered what he was writing down and it did match exactly with what he was showing us.

Code: [Select]
1.  Now I make gen working
    But it spin in 1500 rpm
    Because I don't modif stator
    It has 4 pole
2.  This is rotor (rotor only iron (soft)
    Pipe is holder and must be open
    When assembly in generator
3.  Now I do it up coil no magnet
    coil not move
    any space between rotor iron and
    coil (magnet)
4.  This is holder rotor iron
    holder spin (rotate)
5.  U must cut original shaft
6.  Now I will show U animation

The current thread is at OU here:
http://www.overunity.com/15088/new-generator-no-effect-lenzlaw-give-more-detail-in-pcture/msg423162/

Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #11, on November 11th, 2014, 08:49 PM »
You may want to consider this comment:
Quote from TinMan
It is good to see some one else spotted the scam.
Flux gate alternators put out very little power , and still have the same lenz force effect as any other alternator per watt output. The gate plates carry the magnetic field, and the lenz force acts apon the plates as if they were the magnets them self .I see some great minds on this thread falling for this rubbish.
This very well could be true in general.  I just can't say specifically about this device.  If anyone is still interested in pursuing it, here's the generator used, best I can tell:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ST-STC-series-Single-three-phase_405415884.html

geenee

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #12, on November 11th, 2014, 11:24 PM »
My thought is Len law still exist but show a little force when spin.from video,first spin use more force to spin after that he can use only finger to spin generator.

He shorted the circuit = high load,but can spin easily.

He said power company don't let it go to public.his purpose is giving information to share something's, IMHO.

Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #13, on November 11th, 2014, 11:47 PM »
Quote from geenee on November 11th, 2014, 11:24 PM
He said power company don't let it go to public.his purpose is giving information to share something's, IMHO.
I can certainly see where a power company would go to great lengths to keep this hidden.  If syairchairun has no agenda other than to share what he knows, we should probably take him seriously and at least make an attempt to replicate his work.  It's likely he has taken a great risk already.

I just know if I purchase a 500 dollar generator and cut it up to make the modifications and it doesn't work, there will be repercussions around my house too.  :dodgy:  So if I take the chance, I need to do this carefully and with best information possible.  There will be no putting it back together in its original form or trying to resell it.  I have no idea what the odds are that I would be successful.

geenee

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #14, on November 12th, 2014, 12:23 AM »
Cogging torque of electrical motors is the torque due to the interaction between the permanent magnets of the rotor and the stator slots of a Permanent Magnet (PM) machine. It is also known as detent or 'no-current' torque. This torque is position dependent and its periodicity per revolution depends on the number of magnetic poles and the number of teeth on the stator. Cogging torque is an undesirable component for the operation of such a motor. It is especially prominent at lower speeds, with the symptom of jerkiness. Cogging torque results in torque as well as speed ripple; however, at high speed the motor moment of inertia filters out the effect of cogging torque.

From he said,no len laws but High cogging.
What is the important of high cogging??

Matt,I agree with you.generator has high cost.if had old one that can safe money.if everyone khow to make it.that will be no risk anymore.

Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #15, on November 12th, 2014, 12:43 AM »
I think the cogging is a factor of the running generator in the video having permanent magnets.  When the generator is at rest, the iron interrupters probably become partially magnetized.  I'm not certain this effect would exist if you use electromagnets in the central core, which I think was his next priority with the generator he shows us in pieces.

One thing I'm not clear about is the polarization of the central magnets or electromagnets.  Which of the possible orientations would likely work the best?

Totally agree about the risk.  If I put one together that worked, that would be more reward than I could ever pay for.  Of course, then I'd have to build another one step-by-step for everyone to see.  :P

~Russ

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #16, on November 12th, 2014, 08:15 AM »Last edited on November 12th, 2014, 08:16 AM
ok... so if we all are in agreement and we can work together to replicate this i will spend the money and try to get it done...

i feel there is a high lack of information on this. ( from whats posted here)

so do we have the drawings somewhere that he was showing in the last video?

shooting in the dark here and i'm not convected at all. so i need more info to feel good about trying to make this work.

we should gather all we can and post it all in one place here on this thread...

can we contact the inverter directly? whats language barrier do we have?

ECT ECT.

500$ generator. ( looks to be a lot more than that)

let me know i'm up for the challenge if its worth pursuing. but i want to have a real plan of what im trying to do before i start... making something from what it looks like has not worked in the past. so im not going to make something just from what it looks... i want to know how and why it would work...

i want to understand how the flux is flowing. i want to know more details before i start. then i can learn more on the way through..

~Russ


Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #18, on November 12th, 2014, 03:26 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on November 12th, 2014, 08:15 AM
ok... so if we all are in agreement and we can work together to replicate this i will spend the money and try to get it done...

i feel there is a high lack of information on this. ( from whats posted here)

so do we have the drawings somewhere that he was showing in the last video?

shooting in the dark here and i'm not convected at all. so i need more info to feel good about trying to make this work.

we should gather all we can and post it all in one place here on this thread...

can we contact the inverter directly? whats language barrier do we have?

ECT ECT.

500$ generator. ( looks to be a lot more than that)

let me know i'm up for the challenge if its worth pursuing. but i want to have a real plan of what im trying to do before i start... making something from what it looks like has not worked in the past. so im not going to make something just from what it looks... i want to know how and why it would work...

i want to understand how the flux is flowing. i want to know more details before i start. then i can learn more on the way through..

~Russ
I hear you--all valid questions and feelings.

I'm the same way about wanting to know how and why it works.  Unfortunately, I think what is actually driving this device (should it be real) is more complicated than we can really understand at this point.  It's a case where a replication may be easier to do than building one from scratch with the knowledge and understanding of how it works beforehand.  As uncomfortable as that sounds, it could easily be 20 years before we really have this figured out.  I've been studying ECE Theory and Spin Connection Resonance (SCR) and I can tell you this is no small potato.  This is heavy, heavy stuff.  And that's not even considering whether this device implements it or not, I'm just assuming at this point it does.  Maybe we could build this after everyone studies and understands Eric Dollard's Verser Algebra for Four Quadrant Representation of Electricity.  That makes it easy for me, since I'll be dead and gone by then.

The only thing that makes sense to me is to try and validate that what we see in the video hasn't been doctored or setup as a psyop.  If we can establish this device is genuine and appears to do as we see it doing, then we take on the task of acquiring all the needed information to actually get the hardware, make the modifications and assemble the final device.  If it runs, maybe your children can figure out why it does what it does.  If it doesn't run, we eat it, just like we have with so many past projects.

Me personally, I think I have enough information to go on.  What I don't have is the materials and the machining tools to personally do the work.  I can probably fanangle the purchase of the generator, disassemble it, send the rotor to someone for alteration and put everything back together again.  I have a machinist down the street that could probably mill the end caps, but I'm certain he won't be able to do the rotor cuts.  I can also do the CAD work for the end caps.  Whether this neighbor of mine can do the threaded holes into the interrupters or not, I'm uncertain.

So with some serious assistance if I can get the whole generator modified, then wiring it may take some trial-n-error, but should be doable.  Testing it will be easy, I have that part covered.  Somewhere through all this, I'll have to build-in some adjustments to offset the inner windings from the stator windings to allow for a little optimization.  This may make the generator unidirectional, but who cares right.  I also have no idea what the output waveform may look like, so in order to really use such a generator, the output may have to be taken down to DC and put through an inverter to get clean AC power.

So at the current status of things, lets give it a couple of weeks and see if the guy from Indonesia will be more forthcoming.  I truly suspect we have gotten all we are going to from him, but I could be wrong.  In the meantime, think about the concept here (it is dead simple) and how things should behave within the housing of this particular 4-pole generator with the modifications suggested.  Call it a thought experiment.  Scratch some notes and drawings down and see if anything pops up that would clearly explain its behavior.

If anyone has a better plan or idea, I'm all ears.

Gunther Rattay

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #19, on November 13th, 2014, 06:20 AM »Last edited on November 13th, 2014, 07:37 AM
what about trying intensively making contact to those video makers and let them update video information by more detailed information?

if there is no response it´s a scam by definition. this whole internet hokus pokus with videos raising more questions than giving answers must be cleaned up somehow ...

everyone posting videos should include a contact address and a statement about request handling like commercial companies.

a bit more excellence in information handling would be beneficial for all serious researchers ...








Matt Watts

Re: Patent Study: US5191258
« Reply #24, on November 13th, 2014, 10:48 PM »
I broke down and purchased the Bedini SG Trilogy package and have been reading it.  A lot of stuff in there that points to how this device probably works, (if it does work).  The windings, the circumference of the 4-pole stator, the spacing of the interrupters; it all tends to add up to something that may well behave as we saw in the video.

Bedini's devices, Kromrey's device, Watson's device and all the Tesla machines lead me to believe there is something there worth pursuing.