Some more images to study.  The fellow that released these videos didn't draw them (I believe they were drawn by UFO Politics), but confirmed them to be accurate.

hummm. question.

why cant i try this small scail?

i have plenty of crap laying around...

i'm willing it give it a go.

back to the first responses to this post.

i was asking for more info on this as we " need to know how it works" but i was referring to just a good theory. not necessarily a truly how it works answer. just something to go off of.

with out something its all dark.

Mike Nunnerley modified a small computer fan and is actively finding that certain thicknesses of metal change the cogging behavior and increase output voltage.  He's doing his experiments a little backwards of the Indonesian setup, but getting some results and learning in the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WkZhCHyI8#

Still on the fence myself with this.  TK and Tinman are sure it's a hoax while other folks are full-on exploring it.

I guess it's time to start putting something together; maybe enter it in the PMBO as a failed attempt if nothing else.

Have kind of a concept in mind using a piece of slotted PVC pipe with metal cores added as the rotating part, a standard motor stator for the output coils and some permanent magnets as the core exciters.  I think it's going to take a lot of trial-n-error to work out dimensions that are reasonably in the ball park.

Quote from ~Russ on November 17th, 2014, 08:11 PM

i was asking for more info on this as we " need to know how it works" but i was referring to just a good theory. not necessarily a truly how it works answer. just something to go off of.

Translate this and have a read.  Something I have never heard of before, but may well explain what is going on here.

Could you reduce cogging by having 5 interrupters instead of 4 on the rotor part ?   

Yes this should reduce the cogging, but then you would also have to rewire the 4 coils, as you would have some coils being energised strongly, while others, not so much. 

As it stands now with MJN's test fan motor, the configuration works such that he ties all coils together.
If you are after voltage output, then all coils in series would get you that.  If you want current, then coils in parallel do.

I have an outrunner PMA similar in concept to the computer fan.  It has a 3 phase configuration with 12 laminated steel poles or islands  for the coils (instead of 4).  I had considered rebuilding this motor / generator to see if I could see any lenz negating effects.  I now think I might follow MJN's lead and take a hammer to one of my larger computer fans.

Here's a picture posted by cadman at OU that shows an end-on view of the modified generator.  For those that haven't been following this closely, the only parts that move in this design are the green iron rotors.  The center portion is locked in-place, so the magnetic flux simply switches via the iron rotors.  When a single iron rotor is between two poles, the flux (or magnetic current in Ed Leedskalnin's terminology) flows through the iron rotor, pole to pole.  As the iron rotor turns and aligns with the nearest pole, another iron rotor moves into place to align with the adjacent pole; at this position, the flux flows through the two iron rotors and through the stator core.  This pattern repeats for all four poles every 90 degrees.

With the proper dimensions of the iron rotors and the poles, this transition of magnetic current shouldn't cause any rotational drag.  As for the reduction (or elimination) or Lenz Law, we can see how the back EMF would push on the central core, which does not move.  The Lenz force never directly acts on the rotating rotor iron.  Of course the proof is in the pudding as they say, but I would be willing to bet that if you could unlock the central core and put a torque gauge on it, you would see torque increase as you electrically load the stator windings.  This is exactly the condition we want where the Lenz force acts between two statically mounted objects and never the object in rotation.

Still not convinced?

I still have 10% more convincing to do before I start getting parts milled, but I do think this concept has merit and is worth further investigation and prototyping.

are we still excited by this?

i have some friends that are willing to do some of the mechanical work.

Matt, before you jump in lets devise a plan if we want to work as a group.

~Russ

http://www.google.com/patents/US20030111925

look up more from this guy, is it the same? ( i haven't looked)

Quote from ~Russ on December 11th, 2014, 02:55 PM

are we still excited by this?

i have some friends that are willing to do some of the mechanical work.

Matt, before you jump in lets devise a plan if we want to work as a group.

I think it has merit and I've come up with some mechanical modifications that make this far easier to explore:

• First, you get a standard generator housing with stator windings.  These won't be modified in any way.  A 4-pole or higher, probably single phase.  Something like this should be perfect -- 5kW ST Gen Head
• Next is the cylinder.  In my design we leave this open on one end and use dual bearings on the other end for stability.  This cylinder will actually have the segments of silicon steel bars.  Each bar will have two holes for bolts that screw-in from the far end, having an aluminum ring as the cap.  The bars then butt next to a solid aluminum disc with center hole for axle.  Clearance between the cylinder and the outer stator should be within normal generator specs.
• The last piece is the fixed inner stator.  This will be bolted to the end plate opposite the axle side.  This end plate will have the bearing removed and relocated to the end of this inner stator.  The inner stator can be an array of permanent magnets with alternating polarity or coil wound magnets, whichever turns out easier to fabricate.  Again, clearance between it and the inside of the cylinder should be normal specs.  This inner stator should have on the end of it a pilot hole for the bearing we relocate.  The other bearing will be in the axle side end plate from the stock generator--no modification.
• Also, we need a short shaft that will fit tightly in the cylinder disc, sit in both bearing races and extend out the drive end of the generator end plate.  Doesn't need to be anything fancy, just a short piece with dimensions similar to the stock shaft and keyed for a drive pulley.

My idea here is that if this falls flat, the stock generator can be reassembled and put back on eBay.  There may be a couple of bolt holes drilled on the non-axle side end plate if we cannot secure the inner stator via the vacant bearing hole, but nothing that should interfere with its factory operation.  If this design turns out to work well, there will be a flood of people who want one, at which point we can look at fabricating retrofit kits for this particular ST generator head.  They can get their own generator and we just send them the extra parts and tell them where to drill the holes.  Or given them the detail CAD drawings and let them DIY.

So yeah, if you see and can overcome any hurdles with this design, I'm all in.  The cost even for failure is minimized and failure simply might mean we didn't try enough variations with the inner stator and rotating cylinder.  I honestly expect some interesting surprises if we do this professionally.

I'm confident on my design here,  Missing is the machining and the access to raw silicon steel sheets.  If we can find suitable transformers and have them cut up into the shapes we need, I think we can pull this off.  Not having an exact generator to take measurements from means my CAD drawing will need to be tweaked, which I can do should we decide to press forward.

On the topic of theory, we've been beaten to death by the likes of MileHigh and MarkE that this will never work and must be a hoax.  Luc Choquette and Arunas have presented theories and experimental data to indicate that it is possible.  This arrangement seems to redirect the Lenz drag or Lorentz Force back into the two fixed stators where it cannot directly effect the rotating cylinder.  In a typical generator, the rotating magnets have a fixed field, but in this design, you only have rotating pieces of steel that hold their field for a short amount of time before changing polarity.  This controlled pole flipping in-sync with its rotation appears to be the secret.  The steel is doing the work, not the prime mover.

So here we are; there is only one way I know of to be sure and that's build it and find out for ourselves.

Okay, some good news.  Dragon over at Energetic Forum is making great progress on a real Syair RamaGen replication.

http://www.energeticforum.com/268465-post178.html

Quote from dragon

The 4th build is a pincore 120/240 3kw. I didn't have any silicon handy so I made the director plates from a substandard 1008 steel sheet and electrically isolated them using HV 2mil tape. I knew they wouldn't perform as well as silicon but I figured it was good enough for a test and the assembly could be altered in the future.

The first picture shows the field of the original next to the drum assembly I made up to replace it.

Second one shows the drum installed.

Initial tests gave me around 42 volts at just under 2 amps which isn't to terrible considering the steel used. I measured the gauss being transfered into the core and it was quite low, reading around 550 gauss - not even equal to a good ceramic magnet - pretty poor. Lots of room for improvement.

Just as my 3rd build with the 6 pole the Lenz forces are completely redirected into the solid central hub and have no effect on the input so I know I'm heading in the right direction on the upgrade of this build. Calculating the rpm/Hz at the beginning it should have come in at around 1200 rpm but it actually reaches 60hz at 923 which I find a bit puzzling. Also it does output a perfect sine and should as long as the groupings are correct.

This one has 6 poles in the center with 2 rotating directors - 3 poles per sector this helps activate the field power coils which will be used elsewhere. I found you can use as many central poles as you want ( geometry allowing ) as long as they are odd groupings with the least amount being 2. So 3, 5, 7 etc. This one has a 5" hole and is about 3.25" deep so there isn't much room to pack all this stuff in.

Back to the shop to modify a drum.... fun stuff !!!

Yes, a fully electrical self-runner looks to be in the works--no electronics, no water, no mess.  Just a mechanical generator that outputs more power than it consumes.  This could well be the ticket.

Am I the only one here excited...?

im still waiting, cheering on this project as i have a lot of project on my plate.
also trying to get Scot on here. he cant get back in so... you should see him soon

Quote from ~Russ on December 17th, 2014, 08:54 AM

im still waiting, cheering on this project as i have a lot of project on my plate.
also trying to get Scot on here. he cant get back in so... you should see him soon

Sounds like a plan.  And speaking of plans, I got a doozie coming together on my bench.  This one will answer a very fundamental question that will cut all our research in half once I have the answer.

Hi All,
I am very interested in this project
I should be able to make the parts needed. I see no reason to compromise materials as it also compromises results.
So if someone would Google prices and availability for what ever metal is necessary that would help me a lot.
I have a friend willing to buy the generator so that is a start.
I'm not an electrical guy so I don't get electrical jargon to well so I may need some stuff explained.
Hope to help out I will read at energetic forum  Thanks, Scot
Sorry for the poorly worded post, have little time.

Quote from scot on December 17th, 2014, 11:03 AM

Hi All,
I am very interested in this project
I should be able to make the parts needed. I see no reason to compromise materials as it also compromises results.
So if someone would Google prices and availability for what ever metal is necessary that would help me a lot.
I have a friend willing to buy the generator so that is a start.
I'm not an electrical guy so I don't get electrical jargon to well so I may need some stuff explained.
Hope to help out I will read at energetic forum  Thanks, Scot
Sorry for the poorly worded post, have little time.

Excellent!  Or should I say great scot.  Seems I heard that someplace.  :)

What is killing us is availability of silicon steel or electrical steel.  We need some decent non-grain oriented 0.5mm mid grade silicon steel to work with.  I can find tiny scraps and huge truckload rolls, but nothing in between.  Been looking high and low for someone that will cut-up a roll into sheets that fit on a pallet.  No joy so far.

This mod requires no electrical changes, only the mechanical core if we use permanent magnets.  If we go with an energized core, then things get a bit more complicated, but still quite doable.

great Scot! glad you got in!


cool!

~Russ

Another serious quote from dragon at Energetic Forum:

http://www.energeticforum.com/268558-post197.html

Quote from dragon

Personally I don't see this as a delayed, isolated or blocked Lenz effect... this is Lenz force at its peak. It's simply being re directed.

The rotating iron is simply directing the flux and completing a magnetic circuit. As this circuit is completed all the forces of change are placed on the 2 non movable structures ( magnets and stator ). It's still there in full force but the input isn't the force fighting it.

From what I've seen so far this is a done deal for me. It's down to dealing with all the other challenges related to achieving the maximum flux transfer and coging issues.

Very good summary.

Hope you guys are building.

try looking at it from ed lee flywheel point if view.  what is moving what is not, and were is that magnetic fluid flowing into. ask how, or why...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm8SKwAEVDc#ws

A very simple benchtop replication of this would be a Parallel Path (ala Joe Flynn) magnetic array with a coil at the end of it. Just before the coil would be a rotor that had 4 poles at 90 degree angles... each pole made of ferromagnetic material.

You'd have to make your rotor as wide as the flux path, and you'd have to have pretty close tolerances between the rotor and the flux path. But essentially the rotor causes the flux path to take one of two routes... either the "short circuit" through the rotor, or the long route through the coil.

I tried attaching a small (4.33 KB) PNG image as a 2-D representation, but it keeps throwing an error.

{EDIT}
Just had a thought... in my Energetic Forum posts, I was discussing using a Joe Flynn Parallel Path arrangement and electromagnet coils to switch the magnetic flux between two paths, so I could hit the water with a resonantly fluctuating magnetic field... it may be easier to switch that magnetic flux via a rotor than via electromagnetic coils.
{/EDIT}

Quote from Matt Watts on December 17th, 2014, 01:38 PM

What is killing us is availability of silicon steel or electrical steel.  We need some decent non-grain oriented 0.5mm mid grade silicon steel to work with.  I can find tiny scraps and huge truckload rolls, but nothing in between.  Been looking high and low for someone that will cut-up a roll into sheets that fit on a pallet.  No joy so far.

Bingo!

http://pitschenterprises.com/non-oriented-electrial-steel

Wow great find!  I wonder what kind of price they are looking for.

Maybe Allegheny Ludlum knows of a jobbing distributor. If this is for a prototype that will involve quantity they might send you a sample.

GOES - Grain-Oriented Electrical Steel - Allegheny Ludlum Products

BTW, I didn't know and was curious about what this stuff is. Apparently, it's steel normally rolled into sheets that has properties that make it good for use in laminated transformer coils, etc. For anyone that is interested, from Wiki:

"Electrical steel is an iron alloy which may have from zero to 6.5% silicon (Si:5Fe). Silicon significantly increases the electrical resistivity of the steel, which decreases the induced eddy currents and thus reduces the core loss. Manganese and aluminum can be added up to 0.5%.

Increasing the amount of silicon inhibits eddy currents and narrows the hysteresis loop of the material, thus lowering the core losses. However, the grain structure hardens and embrittles the metal, which adversely affects the workability of the material, especially when rolling it.
...

There are two main types of electrical steel: grain-oriented and non-oriented.

Grain-oriented electrical steel usually has a silicon level of 3% (Si:11Fe). It is processed in such a way that the optimum properties are developed in the rolling direction, due to a tight control (proposed by Norman P. Goss) of the crystal orientation relative to the sheet. Due to the special orientation, the magnetic flux density is increased by 30% in the coil rolling direction, although its magnetic saturation is decreased by 5%. It is used for the cores of high-efficiency transformers, electric motor and generators.

Non-oriented electrical steel usually has a silicon level of 2 to 3.5% and has similar magnetic properties in all directions, which makes it isotropic. It is less expensive and is used in applications where the direction of magnetic flux is changing, such as electric motors and generators. It is also used when efficiency is less important or when there is insufficient space to correctly orient components to take advantage of the anisotropic properties of grain-oriented electrical steel."
What do you think? Thanks, Scot

Hi all,
Love the picture of me in the morning, how did you get it did my wife send it to you?
Forget the last post I see the specifics now.
I have some friends in the business I will be contacting them to see what silicon steel we can scavenge.
Thanks, Scot

Check this out may be helpful.
Thanks,Scot

http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html

More from dragon:

Quote from dragon

First picture shows completed parts prior to assembly, second shows the new rotor assembled. Took advantage of the extreme heat friday night ( above freezing ) and finished machining the parts. Saturday morning assembled everything and put the new rotor in the pincore.

Preliminary tests... coging is still high even with the skewed magnet assembly (N45 neo's ). Made up a quick hand crank for it to test and calculate forces. Hand cranking it gave me 1.5 amps shorted - slow cranking. My first rotor required close to 900 rpm to reach just under 2 amps so it looks promising. Solved one problem, still working on the other...
Next, measured the static forces to overcome lock up... 8.38 lbs of force to break lock at a 5.5" radius which comes in at 3.85 ft lbs. My calculation to reach 60hz is 520 rpm.

So... 3.85 ft lbs at 520 rpm's would require .38hp or 284 watts to drive it. Once it's rotating the forces are a bit less but thought it wise to size the drive motor to the static numbers. Now it's time to scrounge up some pulleys, motor and base then do a little reflecting on what I've learned so far...

http://www.energeticforum.com/269349-post257.html