here is another interesting paper,
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222112707_Ab_Initio_Molecular_Dynamics_Study_of_Dissociation_of_Water_under_an_Electric_Field
 it goes into the process of self ionisation of water,
it gives some good details on the process, its quite recent work also ( 2012).
I'm not sure if its possible to directly convert volts/angstrom to volts/mm or similar, but they found 0.35v/angstrom is the threshold for ionisation of water. They also refer to ionisation of water is really the dissociation of water ( into oh and h30 ions), they also say 100% ionised water is completely dissociated water.
If anyone can decipher this paper into more easily understood terms would be useful, I think stan would have loved to have this type of info at his fingertips.

another one:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/229552901_A_Molecular_Perspective_of_Water_at_Metal_Interfaces

this one is good for getting an understanding of most basic interactions of water and metal surfaces, and how its being research, and the complexity that is involved.
Its more of academic interest, but does show the inadequacies of bilayer model of water near metal surface.
It seems most pure research is done at very low temperatures and in high vacuum, which gives insight into most basic interactions of water with metal surfaces. Not particularly relevant for understanding stans systems in my view.

I suspect this picture has been discussed previously

the pictures above show atomic absorption spectra of hho gas.
Graph produced by Chris Eckman
( Idaho University..student?)
its quite interesting results.
its a bit hard to read the annotations, but from left to right I think it reads:

monotonic hydrogen, diatomic hydrogen, helium, carbon, monotonic oxygen, water vapour,
plasma expanded water (5%), sodium, diatomic nitrogen, diatomic oxygen, chlorine gas,
unknown, argon, carbon dioxide, iron, copper, selenium, plastics ( polypetifine?, pvc)

There is an interesting video also here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9EmgSowldw
which suggests once the hydrogen is removed there is still a combustible gas present in the browns gas mixture.

I guess relating to stans work, if chris eckman is correct and there is a form of water present in browns gas which has two extra electrons, it may explain why stan could get a current out of his electrolyser, and it may also explain why hho reacts as it does to different materials.
Judging by the constituents he found in the browns gas, it looks like he might have used tap water to test?
Also the water vapour and "expanded water" might explain why hho gas is visible as a cloud of small droplets?

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/BrownsGas/Eckman_-_Plasma_Orbital_Expansion_of_the_Electrons_in_Water.pdf

or

http://pesn.com/2010/05/28/9501658-Plasma_Orbital_Expansion-of-the-Electrons_in_Water/

seems chris eckmans expanded water spectral results have been discussed on this forum briefly in the browns gas thread ( also some very brief discussion on energetic forum).
Chris has indicated that the water he tested was demineralised and deionised water.

deleted

http://vibmasss.info/index.php/vibmasss-the-implementation-technology-2/

Thank you for your offer of using a workbench but first I must get prominent physicist and billionaires to understand it and want to invest in the development technology for mass production like the investment in solar panel technology. 

Here are some reproducible experiments videos with empirical data:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJfqMYHaQw watch the whole video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-RjuauyuzM watch the whole video 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0wbEl7caTY watch the whole video

Quote from vibmasss on November 21st, 2015, 11:07 AM

http://vibmasss.info/index.php/vibmasss-the-implementation-technology-2/

Hi there, welcome to the forum.
That looks like quite a device, I would strongly advice you to consider getting your own workbench and present your build there, let's you decide all by yourself how you'd like to present the development of your device(s) in that you get moderator privileges in your own bench.
Basically, what that means could be summoned in that the only rule that comes with moderating your own bench is that you keep to forum rules, which, so far, all benchowners have been able to abide to, not a very hard thing to do actually.
Here, http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1883.0

As  pertaiining to Chris Eckmans video, How could we measure how much hydrogen gas has left out the top of the bottle?

Hydrogen being the lightest element ( as far as I'm aware) would I think leave an open container quite rapidly, if there was also hydrogen ions present ( as compared to H2), they would be even lighter. Unless there was something stopping the hydrogen from floating off it should be gone in a short time period. I will try find some info on it.
Vibmass' ideas and information is way above my head, it looks somewhat similar to stans epg,
but I must say I dont understand it. It also reminds me of the closed loop magnetic holders previously discussed on this forum ( I forget the exact name of the device) but like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alnqltMb-pM
( perpetual motion holder : pmh)
or maybe similar to this one ( seems he has measured some high freq pulses?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw7N73tnuzk

I just want to repost this video since it is so interesting:
It shows some sort of discharge in water charged to 235volts, which takes the form of small points of light. The author ( supermuble) says it took 2 hours to charge the water using a radiant charger ( high volts/low amps), also interesting the plates are aluminium, the aluminium oxide layer acts as a natural diode, so current flow is said to be zero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL0WE5zZXgQ

Anyone got any ideas of how the discharges of light are occuring?

after reading navs thread "a xmas gift", he is suggesting that the capacitance of the wfc cell must match the capacitance of the vic coil, since I dont have a good understanding of  inductance and capacitance of coils, i'm doing some research on that. Here is a very nice video showing how a bifilar coil can be an inductor and capacitor ( the coil actually holds voltage just like a capacitor even after the power is turned off.......I never knew that!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44iT-wtj-o0

Iv read before how physics doesnt know if to class hydrogen as a metal or nonmetal ,  or just doesnt want the consumer to know
heres a chart , they mention H and helium then immediately after that H doesnt exst on the chart

http://www.tutorvista.com/content/science/science-ii/metals-non-metals/electronic-metals-non-metals.php

elements that can donate electrons are called metals

they form positive ions by losing electrons  ....... hello H+ ion

H+ ion
OH- ion
H3O+ ion

these are the same people who claim mon atomic Hydrogen does not exist :roll:

can any one explain this graph from stephen f meyers patent  ( stans brother)
What I dont understand is exactly what unit is being used on the x-axis? is it meters?
If it is meters can anyone interpret the graph? There are some values above the graph also,
what do they mean? Is there is given length of concentric tubes this graph relates to?

so just trying to answer my own question:
electrical wave is travelling through water medium...........the speed of electrical wave through water.....assume pure water ..........is not same as electrical wave through vacuum ( speed of light).........find velocity factor of water to get speed of the wave:
use formula:
vf = 1/ sqrt k
vf=velocity factor, k=dielectric value of medium ( or relative permittivity)

( from here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_factor)

substitute in : k = 78 for pure water
gives
vf= 11.3%
So speed of em or electrical wave in pure water is 11.3% that of in vacuum.
Speed of em wave in vacuum is same as speed of light which is 300,000,000 m/s
11.3% of 300,000,000m/s is
33,900,000 m/s
so electrical wave front  in pure water with dielectric constant of 78 is approximately
34million metres in one second.

going to this page on calculating the electrical length of a transmission line:
http://www.qsl.net/w4sat/velfact.htm)

using values given by stephen meyer in picture previously posted:
freq: 496.9 hz ( given at top of pic) and vel factor of 11.3% ( round to 11%)
Plug values into equation solver on link above ( using 1/4 wavelength)
gives 1.67m
This might be where he got the value for x-axis:
he says 1.67m/div for x-axis on his picture, multiply by 2 gives 3.33m, which is second division on his marked on his graph.
Ok so here is confusion for me:
this value is arrived at using 1/4 wavelength in formula, looking at graph of stephen meyer, it looks like wavelength ( sinewave shape) is equal to 3.33m? So how to resolve the graph does not show 1/4wavelength sine wave? maybe it makes sense to someone who understands transmission line/antannae graphs?

( just as a side note: it maybe that  stephen meyer was the one who discovered the circuit for stans splitter device, he has radar background also, going by info on this forum and some old videos, i'm thinking stephens meyer circuit in his patent is definitely worth understanding)

using 1/4wavelength tranmission line/antanae formula:
lets put in 10khz here
http://www.qsl.net/w4sat/velfact.htm
( using 11% vel factor )
gives 1/4length of 8.2cm..............how long were stans wfc tubes?
Could it be the length of the tube is matched to the 1/4wavelength electrical wavelength and thefrequency? Its certainly looking very close match.
( frequency doubling occurs in stans vic coils but what about in stephens circuit?)
How about the injector type wfc:
What is length of the voltage zone:
approx 1cm
pluggin some values for freq   into formula for 1/4wave by trial and error to get 0.1m wavelength:
75khz matches approx 1cm length.......for injector wfc.

Stephen meyer mentions in patent that the tubes 'rings' at the electrical frequency, so the tube is acting like an antannae, I'm hoping i've worked out a way to match frequency with length of tube.........I had assumed it was not important but it may be quite important going by
stephen meyers patent.

up until this point i was thinking the frequency of the circuit was being matched to the resonant LC type circuit, so that ringing of the LC circuit occurred, but now I'm beginning to think that the ringing of the cell is matched to frequency of antannae/transmission 1/4 wavelength.
That would mean in order to get ringing of the LC circuit, the coils  would need to be wound to match the resonant frequency of the tubes ( or voltage zone) for a given dielectric value of water.

So at this time I think sequence would be:
Find resonant 1/4 wavelength of voltage zone or tubes ( lets say 75khz for injector voltage zone, approx)....as shown above.......
Then ringing coils on either side of the voltage zone would need to be built to ring at 75khz!!
So there are two resonant or 'ringing' effects on the water:
1. electrical wavelength ringing of voltage zone in tune with speed of electrical wavefront which is approx 11% speed of light.
2. series inductors on each side of the voltage zone: they need to match the frequency already established by matching the length of voltage zone to speed of wavefront.

But........does stephen use inductors in same manner as stan.......looking at the circuit in stephens patent its different circuit........need to look at stephens circuit.

Quote from brettly on December 10th, 2015, 05:05 AM

after reading navs thread "a xmas gift", he is suggesting that the capacitance of the wfc cell must match the capacitance of the vic coil, since I dont have a good understanding of  inductance and capacitance of coils, i'm doing some research on that. Here is a very nice video showing how a bifilar coil can be an inductor and capacitor ( the coil actually holds voltage just like a capacitor even after the power is turned off.......I never knew that!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44iT-wtj-o0

If you neutralise linear inductance which a bifilar does, you are left with electrostatic inductance which is the B vector field. In Stans drawings in the VIC you will see two circles perpendicular the the cancelled H vector field, these indicate the B field of the electrostatic inductance and capacitance. Tesla spent years studying it.
Its velocity is faster than the speed of light according to Tesla. This stored voltage leaves a bifilar coil across its windings down the length rather through the wire, just like a group of series capacitors soldered together, the resistor legs being the resistance. Therefore the resistance is in the thickness of the wire as if the coil was acting like a series of tubes one inside the other. When working out the tube sizes for your cell you must consider its electrostatic resistance not its linear resistance.

brettly,  you are forgetting to include the decimal points in the calculator,

an electrical 1/4wave of transmission-line @ 10khz using a velocity factor of 11% is 824.45 mtrs,

10khz = .01mhz
11%vf = .11 in that calculator


an electrical 1/4wave transmissin-line that is open circuit at the far end will invert the open circuit end impedance to appear as a short circuit at the input end,
an electrical 1/2wave will reflect the open circuit at the far end as an open circuit at the input end.

thnx resonance1, I tried different calculator
( http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/41c.htm)
which is basically same method, and I think you are correct.
 I think you could assume that stephen meyer has used 11% as vel factor, I think its no coincidence that the number 1.67m/division is used.
So how to interpret stephen meyers graph?
Has he made same error that I made? Somehow I would doubt he would make such an error.

using stephen Meyers numbers on the graph:
wavelength = 2.102m
freq = 496.9 ( hz?)
if freq is in hertz gives speed of wavefront is 100m/s ( about 1/3 speed of sound in air, or 1/9th
speed of sound in water) not even on the scale of electrical waves???
Could it be the frequency units are not given makes it impossible to interpret the graph?

this could be a bit embarassing!!
x-axis i think is m=milli-seconds......................doh............not metres.............
i'm aN IDIOT!!

apart from learning that i'm an idiot on occasions, I can say that its back to the  resonance only
being associated with the LC series inductor and wfc capacitor..........oh well.

Think of it like this Bretty, you have a bifilar coil that has been charged with a flux field on a core.
In the coil there are two inductance fields called B and H vectors which are responsible for this charging. The coil has a voltage field besides its inductance field which is held as capacitance using the enamel coating as the dielectric layer and the resistance of the thickness of the wire determines those capacitance zones.
When the bifilar coil is charged by an inductance field it will have 2 positive voltage charges at one end and 2 negative charges at the other end. But if you place a diode agreeing with that charge direction, when there is a change in current and the coil tries to swap its charge field direction, only one of the windings can do this because the diode forces the other winding to keep its original direction.
This creates 2 opposing induction fields which cancel current and the H vector inductance field but the voltage is 90 degrees out of phase and leaves the coil through the electrostatic inductance B vector field.