Hi all,

Some time ago, I posted a thread about the theoretic principles along which Stan's system is capable of drawing excess energy out of the aether/vacuum/ZPE field/whatever name you prefer:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=1168

Since the idea is that the WFC is supposed to be an electrolytic capacitor, I went looking for ways to make a suitable dielectric layer on top of stainless steel. The first direction I thought of was some kind of nickel oxide, because stainless 316 has the highest concentration of nickel, and nickel is also being used in super capacitors. However, these use a different mechanism and are thus NOT suitable in a normal electrolytic capacitor like the WFC.

So, I went looking for what I could find out about chromium oxide, and more particular, Cr3O2, which is the oxide growing on top of stainless and which is what protects the metal from rusting.

It turns out that Cr3O2 has similar properties as aluminum oxide, which is being used in electrolytic capacitors.

AND it turns out that so called "electropolishing" process which is used a/o for anodizing stainless steel for medical applications is very similar to the process by which normal electrolytic capacitors are made, based on aluminum.

See my posts on the other thread for more details:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=1168&pid=17448#pid17448

Now if we add one and one together, I would say chances are very heigh that Stan used electropolished stainless steel.

That basically explains why Stan did not appear to have "conditioned" his pipes, but others reported good result with "conditioned" pipes. So, he apparently *did* use a specific "conditioning" process, BUT he simply just ordered "electropolished" stainless instead of doing it the hard way...

I found this pdf for electropolishing.  Looks like a good read:

http://www.euro-inox.org/pdf/map/Electropolishing_EN.pdf

Interesting.
It's definitely worth a shot.

Quote from lamare on September 4th, 2013, 12:32 PM

Hi all,

Some time ago, I posted a thread about the theoretic principles along which Stan's system is capable of drawing excess energy out of the aether/vacuum/ZPE field/whatever name you prefer:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=1168

Since the idea is that the WFC is supposed to be an electrolytic capacitor, I went looking for ways to make a suitable dielectric layer on top of stainless steel. The first direction I thought of was some kind of nickel oxide, because stainless 316 has the highest concentration of nickel, and nickel is also being used in super capacitors. However, these use a different mechanism and are thus NOT suitable in a normal electrolytic capacitor like the WFC.

So, I went looking for what I could find out about chromium oxide, and more particular, Cr3O2, which is the oxide growing on top of stainless and which is what protects the metal from rusting.

It turns out that Cr3O2 has similar properties as aluminum oxide, which is being used in electrolytic capacitors.

AND it turns out that so called "electropolishing" process which is used a/o for anodizing stainless steel for medical applications is very similar to the process by which normal electrolytic capacitors are made, based on aluminum.

See my posts on the other thread for more details:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=1168&pid=17448#pid17448

Now if we add one and one together, I would say chances are very heigh that Stan used electropolished stainless steel.

That basically explains why Stan did not appear to have "conditioned" his pipes, but others reported good result with "conditioned" pipes. So, he apparently *did* use a specific "conditioning" process, BUT he simply just ordered "electropolished" stainless instead of doing it the hard way...

Interesting, my one cell the inner SS tube, as I condition the cell, it builds up a white coating, then produces more HH0. So I think your on the right track. :cool::D:P

BTW, Stan's original design has become available after his estate has been sold. These have been converted to CAD drawings by a/o Russ Griess and all the components appear to be available ready made now for reasonable prices, although details may still have to be changed in future versions:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=249&pid=16487#pid16487
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=249&pid=16636#pid16636
http://www.securesupplies.biz/#!electrolyzers-11-cell/cj6f
http://www.securesupplies.biz/#!electrolyzers-7-cell/c1zln


So, it appears that we are getting very close to being able to successfully replicate Stan's WFC. It should be a piece of cake to have these components "electropolished".

Posted a new thread with questioning whether or not the injector system actually ever worked, along with some circumstantial evidence suggesting he probably got his hand on some electropolished stainless and got that working, but has never been able to repeat that, because he did not know what was so special about these tubes which actually worked:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=1386

The secret even Stan Meyer himself did not know


Somewhere in the period 1980-1985 Stanley Meyer ran his car on nothing but tap water.

Then it stopped working.

Why?

What happened?

He happened to have used electropolished stainless steel.

But he did not know that.

Nobody did.

And nobody found out.

Until 2013.

http://www.tuks.nl/wiki/index.php/Main/StanMeyersSecret

Thanks Lamare, good to see and hear you

That's a very good write-up and documentary there lamare.  To top it off, I would really like to see a small prototype demonstration using an electropolished plate cell.  This would take all of your research from theory to visible, undeniable proof and put an end to the Stanley Meyer magic.  It would also vindicate the likes of Fred Wells and others that are already building functional devices.  If you would be willing to take this last step, it would seal-the-deal.  I and many others would much appreciate it.

Quote from Dog-One on September 14th, 2013, 07:58 AM

That's a very good write-up and documentary there lamare.  To top it off, I would really like to see a small prototype demonstration using an electropolished plate cell.  This would take all of your research from theory to visible, undeniable proof and put an end to the Stanley Meyer magic.  It would also vindicate the likes of Fred Wells and others that are already building functional devices.  If you would be willing to take this last step, it would seal-the-deal.  I and many others would much appreciate it.

Added a little section on the article, asking for donations, which I have never done before. I will need to order a kit and such, so will need about 500 - 1000 Euro's. Hope some people will donate a few bucks via PayPal to lamare@gmail.com.

I need to build a working prototype, indeed. However, it's not that difficult now that we know what needs to be done.

Can you not get material that is already electropolished?  Surgical equipment or similar?

One of my major concerns is life expectancy and things that could potential destroy the surface layer.  I know in that Fred Wells video he speaks of hooking the cell up backwards which will almost immediate ruin it.

As for raising funds, you might consider Indiegogo if you really think you need to go that route.  I just figured it would be far easier to get some material, dunk it in water, show a high voltage exciter with nearly zero current producing HHO gas.  That would more than satisfy me.  Then we can get serious about DIY, optimization, care and handling, etc.

Quote from Dog-One on September 14th, 2013, 08:28 AM

Can you not get material that is already electropolished?  Surgical equipment or similar?

One of my major concerns is life expectancy and things that could potential destroy the surface layer.  I know in that Fred Wells video he speaks of hooking the cell up backwards which will almost immediate ruin it.

As for raising funds, you might consider Indiegogo if you really think you need to go that route.  I just figured it would be far easier to get some material, dunk it in water, show a high voltage exciter with nearly zero current producing HHO gas.  That would more than satisfy me.  Then we can get serious about DIY, optimization, care and handling, etc.

For an Indiegogo campaign to be successful, one also first needs to have something working, a proof of concept. And for that, I simply need the electronics and a reasonably built fuel cell.

I have already asked a company which specializes in stainless tubes about getting off-the-shelf electropolished stainless pipes. That would indeed be preferred. And I talked to a neighbor of mine, who has contacts with a German company who is in the business of high quality steel products. Perhaps I can score some scrap parts that way.

Another source might be pipes used in milking machines, but so far I haven't been able to make sure these are usable. If they are, I can probably score some scrap parts at a local company who installs milking machines all across the country.

So, I'm trying to setup multiple parallel paths to get there..... :)


Life expectancy is not a major concern. Judging on the life of Stan's buggy, one would be talking about a life expectancy of at least a few months. More than enough to prove the concept. In production machines, it would be simply a matter of cleaning and repolishing every now and then.

What I'm suggesting is the absolute most simple demonstration imaginable to prove your theory.  A simple piece of material, in a jar with water, using rectified line power with a light bulb in series indicating current draw.  I should see the light extinguished and tons of HHO gas coming off the plate.  Nothing fancy, nothing complex.  Keep it very simple so that everyone can see the difference when using electopolished material.  Maybe even have a side-by-side comparison when not using electropolished material.  Be sure to indicate the water is ordinary tap water and not laboratory grade deionized water.  Such a demonstration would more than satisfy the average builder.

Quote from Dog-One on September 14th, 2013, 08:49 AM

What I'm suggesting is the absolute most simple demonstration imaginable to prove your theory.  A simple piece of material, in a jar with water, using rectified line power with a light bulb in series indicating current draw.  I should see the light extinguished and tons of HHO gas coming off the plate.  Nothing fancy, nothing complex.  Keep it very simple so that everyone can see the difference when using electopolished material.  Maybe even have a side-by-side comparison when not using electropolished material.  Be sure to indicate the water is ordinary tap water and not laboratory grade deionized water.  Such a demonstration would more than satisfy the average builder.

That is an option, of course, which I keep open. For that, I also need electropolished stainless. So, the first thing to do is get me some electropolished stainless. Almost any piece of scrap would do. Depending on what I will be able to get, I will see what can be done.

First things to do is ask people. Will also add a question about that to the article. It appears to spread pretty well so far. Already got over 200 hits, so I am trying to make use of that now.

You have taken things this far, no need to hand it over quite yet.

For some material, I'm thinking dental instruments.  Get something from the local dentist that was about to be tossed out, grind one end so you can make an electrical connection and try the above test.  If the surface layer isn't directly conductive, it should work.  You should see the capacitive breakdown with the release of hydrogen.  If the surface is directly conductive, the instrument is obviously not electropolished surgical stainless.  Using just an ohm meter you should be able to find something.

Quote from Dog-One on September 14th, 2013, 09:27 AM

If the surface is directly conductive, the instrument is obviously not electropolished surgical stainless.  Using just an ohm meter you should be able to find something.

Good point! That's a very good idea :)

I'm sure I have a milking pipe lying somwhere around here. Used it as a pole underneath the kitchen table. Will see if I can find it and test it with an Ohm meter.

-:-

Too bad. It's got a resistance of about 0.2 Ohms. So much for that one. :(

Quote from lamare on September 14th, 2013, 09:39 AM

Good point! That's a very good idea :)

I'm sure I have a milking pipe lying somwhere around here. Used it as a pole underneath the kitchen table. Will see if I can find it and test it with an Ohm meter.

I'm always having to prod the engineers to take off their thinking caps and be field technicians once in a while.

:P

Quote from Dog-One on September 14th, 2013, 08:49 AM

What I'm suggesting is the absolute most simple demonstration imaginable to prove your theory.  A simple piece of material, in a jar with water, using rectified line power with a light bulb in series indicating current draw.  I should see the light extinguished and tons of HHO gas coming off the plate.  Nothing fancy, nothing complex.  Keep it very simple so that everyone can see the difference when using electopolished material.  Maybe even have a side-by-side comparison when not using electropolished material.  Be sure to indicate the water is ordinary tap water and not laboratory grade deionized water.  Such a demonstration would more than satisfy the average builder.

Well, for tons of gas, you need to pulse the current, or use AC, as with old school rectifiers:

http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/SparkBangBuzz/borax-el.htm

As a matter of fact, Steiner's setup would be all right for such a first test, provided one takes care of safety. One should see lots of gas AND "the glow".

Quote from lamare on September 14th, 2013, 09:57 AM

Well, for tons of gas, you need to pulse the current, or use AC, as with old school rectifiers:

http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/SparkBangBuzz/borax-el.htm

As a matter of fact, Steiner's setup would be all right for such a first test, provided one takes care of safety. One should see lots of gas AND "the glow".

Thanks for sharing, I find this most interesting,

Quote

A 75 watt lamp running even at half brilliance makes it difficult to darken the room adequately. I find it easier to observe the glow by using aluminum strips  or both electrodes in the jar. This creates a situation of having two rectifiers back to back, allowing very little current to flow through the lamp. When connected to power for the first time, the 75 watt lamp lights up to full brilliance. The rectifying layer then start to form on the aluminum plates until after a few minutes, the lamp brilliance dies down to nothing. At this time, both aluminum strips will be glowing.

So some layer of sort is forming, plating the aluminum strips with a PN junction.
Awesome, gonna check it out

Quote from Lynx on September 14th, 2013, 10:31 AM

So some layer of sort is forming, plating the aluminum strips with a PN junction.
Awesome, gonna check it out

Yes, so the difference between aluminum and chromium is that with aluminum one can easily grow the layer, while for chromium one needs a considerable amount of current to do so. With a normal aluminum based electrolytic capacitor, the layer becomes self-repairing when the capacitor is used. With a chromium based one, this appears to be very hard to accomplish.

Note that the rectifier is slightly different from an electrolytic capacitor in the sense that on BOTH plates a layer of dielectric is grown, because it is steered with AC power. This is also what we get with a stainless WFC, so I guess you could use it as a rectifier if need be. :)

It is very interesting to experiment with aluminum and ordinary baking soda. I have done so a few years ago:

http://www.energeticforum.com/john-bedini/5128-bedini-meyer-capacitors-batteries-electret-effect.html#post79132

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swknDdT05-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swknDdT05-M


Also note this detail:
http://www.tuks.nl/Mirror/SparkBangBuzz/borax-el.htm

Quote

The glow is produced on the reverse bias cycle of each rectifier.

So, what happens, is this:

1) capacitor is charged. Electrons are removed from the anode, while at the same time being injected trough the cathode into the fluid, so negative ions move towards the layer.

2) an electric field, caused by the charge, builds up.

3) this polarizes the layer, which polarizes in the OPPOSIT direction, working AGAINST the field which causes it.

4) capacitor "discharges"

5) layer can not keep up de-polarizing at 50 Hz.

6) field caused by layer remains. Because this layer is very thin AND we had a considerable field across it (like 110V in this case over in the order of 1um) the field now ONLY caused by the polarized dielectric exceeds the dielectric breakdown field strength of water, about 70V/um.

7) we get "the glow" and gas production as well. And "the glow" actually is the proof that the water (dielectric) has broken down.

And because the polarization of the layer is dependent of the applied electric field you can push the polarization of the dielectric in high gear by "charging" the capacitor with high voltages spikes along Bedini's recipe, thus increasing the desired effects of dielectric breakdown in the water and the resulting gas production.

So, if you were to put together a cell with different materials, which aren't affected any in the process with regards to oxidizing, then the cell itself makes for the diode in the sense that a PN layer is formed on the wall of the plate/tube........?
Could that be the diode mentioned in Meyer's patents?
Hmmmmmm............

Well, not too easy finding metals that which don't oxidize, seems as though Platinum or Titanium are the "only" inexpensive enough metals to use here.
I've sent a question to a supplier for different cost(s) for Ti, the idea here is to use the Ti for anode and SS for cathode, perform some PN layer curing on the SS either by electropolishing or whatever and then see what gives, if the whole cell turns into one gigantic diode or not.
After that then it's time to subject it to an AC voltage, adjust the frequency and see if there's a sweet spot somewhere where an enormous flow of gas(es) starts bubbling up.
Otherwise I'll just use Aluminum and SS, that should work just as well, as long as I get the cell to act as a diode.
It only has to last until I find the 'proof of concept', I'd be perfectly happy with that

Hum, :huh: I have about a thimble full of platinum, I should do some experimentation with it. So it should be anode or cathode? :cool:

Well as I understand it the O2 forms on the anode and H2 on the cathode, so using it together with SS then, just to get a diode action going, I'm guessing it doesn't matter which is which in this case.
But why not try the Titanium as anode for starters.........?
As long as the diode forms, that's what I'd be aiming for anyway, the rest is still unwritten ;)

I can acquire a small amount of Titanium from work to test with, would be worth looking into.:cool: