Until it's proven working any theory goes.
Even smearing banana poo on the cells, it could just be the secret sauce here you know.

Quote from Lynx on September 21st, 2013, 07:41 AM

Until it's proven working any theory goes.
Even smearing banana poo on the cells, it could just be the secret sauce here you know.

Pff banana poo.. that kind of humor should also not be allowed here.. ;)

Quote from Matt Watts on September 21st, 2013, 01:00 AM

I know one thing to look for, very high resistance when the plates come in contact with water.  The next big thing is to put some high voltage across those plates and show me bubbles.  I see that by more than one person on this forum and I'll be packing up my cells to be shipped somewhere for professional electropolishing.

Turns out I tried measuring the resisitance of the layer in a normal electrolytic capacitor in 2009:

http://www.energeticforum.com/78886-post23.html

Quote

In order to get an idea about how a dielectric layer on aluminium would look like, I opened up an electrolytic capacitor of 33 uF / 30+ V. You can see what it looks like in the attached picture.

The aluminum foils are light-grey, so it is visible that some layer is present on the foil. As you can see, the layer can be easily scratched with a knife, and then the shining metal underneath becomes visible.

I tried to measure the resistance of the layer, which is not easy. Most of the time I measured a resistance in the order of 10 Ohms, which was also the resistance of the aluminum itself. However, sometimes when I tried to connect the probes very gently, the resistance appeared to vary between something like 500 Ohms and 2 k. However, these are not reliable measurements, indications at best.

There is a difference between the layer on aluminum and on steel, which is that Cr2O3 is much, much harder and durable than aluminum oxide.

So, it will be interesting to see what comes out of resistance measurements of electropolished stainless. While the resistance of the layer is proportional to the thickness of the layer and a layer of Cr2O3 is grown with considerable current for about 20 minutes applying voltages in the order of 10-20 V IIRC, we don't know how much voltage the layer can withstand before it breaksdown after 20 minutes of growing.

It could be that the layer becomes thick enough to withstand something like 3-5V. In that case, we should be able to measure a resistance in the order of perhaps a few 100 Ohms.

It could be a good idea to measure the resistance as a function of the voltage applied to the layer using metal contacts applied gently to the surface, for example using a known resistor in series with a adjustable power supply and then measure the voltage over the resistor and over the layer contacts.

That way, we should see an area up to a certain voltage, whereby we see resistive behavior and above that voltage, the dielectric layer breaks down and it behaves like a shortcut.

The higher this breakdown voltage, the thicker the layer and thus the better it is.

I would guesstimate the breakdown voltage of a layer grown by a professionally performed polishing process to lie somewhere between 1 and 10V.

Quote from lamare on September 21st, 2013, 08:03 AM

It could be a good idea to measure the resistance as a function of the voltage applied to the layer using metal contacts applied gently to the surface, for example using a known resistor in series with a adjustable power supply and then measure the voltage over the resistor and over the layer contacts.

That way, we should see an area up to a certain voltage, whereby we see resistive behavior and above that voltage, the dielectric layer breaks down and it behaves like a shortcut.

The higher this breakdown voltage, the thicker the layer and thus the better it is.

I would guesstimate the breakdown voltage of a layer grown by a professionally performed polishing process to lie somewhere between 1 and 10V.

If it acts like a dielectric, the resistance will grow. So it can only (i think) be measured on a potential, like in a setup for a capacitor. But it should be measurable to be different from ordinary SS..

The normal potential between hydrolyses plates in a cell is near 2 volts, so maybe the layer has to be thick enough to overcome that hurtle.

quote:
Somewhere around 1980-1985 the car ran on water, but then it stopped working.

Why?

What happened?

He happened to have used electropolished stainless steel.

But he did not know that.

Nobody did.

And nobody found out.

Until 2013.
end quote.
Lamare
I'm very impressed about your deep thinking, research full consciousness in details and whole think and final conclusion.
Many thanks for your hard work , sharing with us your ideas and information.
Keep up good work.
All the best for you.
sorry for my english.
Thank
andy

Quote from Lynx on September 21st, 2013, 07:19 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 21st, 2013, 06:14 AM

What I would like to do is take my cell apart and electropolish the tubes myself, so what is needed, is a formula and/or procedure for an individual to do this on his own. I for one don't want to pay someone else to do something I think we ourselves can do.:D

Here, http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=1386&pid=17650#pid17650

I have already ordered the phosphoric acid, should arrive sometime next week.

Excellent!

When you do it yourself, you have the possibility of letting the layer grow much longer than the about 20 minutes used in professional processes. These are optimized for getting a layer with a smooth surface and high durability, but NOT for getting the layer as thick as possible.

If this turns out to be the secret, then one can expect to be able to improve the performance by growing the layer thicker, which can be achieved by letting the process run longer, meanwhile gradually increasing the voltage being applied.

However, be aware that the devil is in the details and that professionally performed process also involves extra steps to clean the metal, etc. So, YMMV, but it can be done. And when you succeed and get all the details right, the possibility of tuning the process to this particular application suggests it might very well be possible to achieve even better results than Stan did.

Either way, how much thicker you can grow the layer and what thickness is optimal for this rather unusual application is a big question, which I am not concentrating on at the moment.

For now, my intention is most of all to prove the principle AND to confirm that Stan could have gotten the performance he got by using off-the-shelf electropolished stainless.

So, if it works with off-the-shelf electropolished, we are in a position that a lot of people can replicate this stuff, without having to do the electropolishing themselves, even when further improvements are possible by tuning the electropolishing process itself for this particular application.

Quote from FaradayEZ on September 21st, 2013, 08:17 AM

Quote from lamare on September 21st, 2013, 08:03 AM

It could be a good idea to measure the resistance as a function of the voltage applied to the layer using metal contacts applied gently to the surface, for example using a known resistor in series with a adjustable power supply and then measure the voltage over the resistor and over the layer contacts.

That way, we should see an area up to a certain voltage, whereby we see resistive behavior and above that voltage, the dielectric layer breaks down and it behaves like a shortcut.

The higher this breakdown voltage, the thicker the layer and thus the better it is.

I would guesstimate the breakdown voltage of a layer grown by a professionally performed polishing process to lie somewhere between 1 and 10V.

If it acts like a dielectric, the resistance will grow. So it can only (i think) be measured on a potential, like in a setup for a capacitor. But it should be measurable to be different from ordinary SS..

The resistance will grow, proportional to the thickness of the layer, yes.

But at some point the dielectric breaks down and we don't know at what kind of voltages that occurs with layers in the order of 30 Angström thick. Yet, it should be possible to measure this, once one knows how to measure reliably, given the thin layers we are dealing with.

Once we do this right, there should be a clear difference between ordinary stainless and electropolished. So, the question is: how to measure this reliably?

All in all, still a lot of unkowns, BUT also quite a lot of possible paths to investigate this stuff.

To me its a bit of a paradox, we need an electric field, but putting water/electrolyte in between will disturb the field. (that is if it gives off electrons)

Using the dielectrics used in a capacitor, they can build up a nice fieldstrength.

Now we want to run water in the middle of that.

So what capacitors have a solid like dielectric that we can split?

(Just another way of looking at this)

As i've read they tried different coatings, even plastic.

But in my mind plastic isn't dielectric so that would only insulate, and build up the electric field but not give of electrons, and some of that is still needed i presume.

But if electropolishing is difficult, one could coat the already owned cell with something used in capacitors, that won't dissolve in water.

So for testing (the general principle) there may be some cheaper solutions out there?

I think we should keep this simple.  Long drawn out pro and con theories can be done after an experiment has been conducted.  

Now I remember my Father saying that they used Citric acid to put a protective layer of oxidation on the stainless steel paper machine equipment that they used to build.  He had saved a small plastic barrel of the stuff in his work shop.  It sprung a leak and ate the concrete. :-/  Anyways I did a quick search on Citric acid and found this:
http://www.finishing.com/466/18.shtml

Quote

Citric removes "less" than nitric in the sense that it removes the iron only and leaves behind the chromium and other metals. This is beneficial both from a waste disposal standpoint and from a corrosion resistance standpoint, as the citric leaves a deeper chromium-enriched layer than nitric.
And yes, the chrome oxide layer is formed not in the bath but in the air afterwards. This does not prevent citric from delivering equivalent or even superior corrosion resistance results.

I would say their are a lot of things we can test.  Electropolishing may be over kill for what we need.  Only experiments will tell.  Telling people not to spend money on an experiment to me is uncalled for, unless you can show documented proof of the exact experiment that has already been conducted.  Ironicly the thread in the link I posted sounds about as heated as this one.:P

Nate

Here's an interesting read, http://www.forumforthefuture.org/greenfutures/articles/rust-catalyst-cheap-hydrogen-productionHere's another, albeit a bit more complex, way of making a catalyst, http://alchemy.cchem.berkeley.edu/jeff/paper111.pdf

Hans-Peter Grote from South Africa has tested a dry cell electrolyser with electropolished stainless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nii_BxApQjo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nii_BxApQjo

Quote

Unbelivable HHO Production with 17.5 Amp

It is running on a 12V battery charger, so DC, at 17.5 Amps.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/347952338667785/402867469842938/

Quote

Electro-Polished Electrode Plates - increased Hydrogen Production and no Oxidation at positive Electrodes. Now you can run also high Amps without any Problems , all day long !

Looks like it works, indeed. :D

Pretty looking cell, but I wouldn't call the output at 17.5 amps unbelievable--looks quite typical to me.  And because the plate surface is so smooth, doubling the amperage would probably show signs of thermal runaway.  My Bob Volk cell is about the same size and can handle 40 amps with only a 5 degree heat-up from ambient.  The difference:  My plates have been roughened.

Brute force electrolysis is all about surface area--the more the better.

What I would be very curious of is if he can run high voltage, low amperage with distilled water...

Quote from Matt Watts on October 30th, 2013, 02:06 PM

Pretty looking cell, but I wouldn't call the output at 17.5 amps unbelievable--looks quite typical to me.  And because the plate surface is so smooth, doubling the amperage would probably show signs of thermal runaway.  My Bob Volk cell is about the same size and can handle 40 amps with only a 5 degree heat-up from ambient.  The difference:  My plates have been roughened.

Brute force electrolysis is all about surface area--the more the better.

What I would be very curious of is if he can run high voltage, low amperage with distilled water...

I don't understand that someone like Hans Peter Grote, who seems to be already a bit longer bussy with HHO production, that he doesn't give the data to calculate on. No LPM per watt, plus the gas production content isn't clear... is it volatile browns gas or something else?

And on surface area... Stan's tubes only use halve of their surface (as far as i could figure out in post: http://www.open-source-energy.org/?tid=1401&pid=19649#pid19649

So..somewhere Stan needed something extra to use, some benefit that this tubing might have over the straight plate cells.

Only thing that comes to my mind is some resonance that was locked in place by the cylindrical tubes and thereby created an exponential influence in the middle. ??
Plus the pulsing stuff (but that can also be done on straight plates?)
Hmm what special can one do with tubes? and not with straights?

I know this is an old thread, but have you (lamare) ever been able to get a hold of electropolished stainless steel?  There is an electropolishing operation where I work. I have been trained to use it. I'm sure I could get permission. I don't have any stainless steel though. I will have to get some and test this out.

This would be of interest Jamie, is it possible to electro polish the inside of a 1" dia. SS tube

I don't see why not. I think all I would have do is make sure there is no air bubbles trapped in side.

what would happen if you use cling wrap or some thin dielectric plastic over the stainless?
Would ordinary knives/forks be electroplated?

Quote from brettly on July 14th, 2014, 12:59 AM

what would happen if you use cling wrap or some thin dielectric plastic over the stainless?

Way too thick.  Even if the plastic was only a molecule thick on the metal, I think you would impose an additional dielectric to the cell.  You want the water to be the dielectric.

Quote from brettly on July 14th, 2014, 12:59 AM

Would ordinary knives/forks be electroplated?

Not sure, but I am sure that many medical type instruments are.  Electropolished that is.

Im not sure about the medical grade stainless. That process may be a little different. All stainless steel parts where I work get electropolished but, we don't have anything that thick so im really not sure. I've only done it a handful of times. It's simple enough to remember though.

Oh...I dont know if it has to do with grade of stainless they use or their particular process but, you can see visible pitting in the parts after they have been electropolished. So I don't know if that happens with all stainless steal. The parts are quite shiny though. Could be a number of things i guess such as maybe the amperage for the thickness of the parts is set too high. Wish I could experiment....could be helpful to us.

Even if it is determined that electropolished stainless steel does not increase hho productivity, I would still recommend you purchase 316L stainless steal that has been electropolished and annealed for optimum resistance to corrosion and prolong the life of your cells. A nice smooth finished surface in my opinion would help dislodge the gas bubbles more efficiently. So that would be my advice but, I'm no expert by any means.
I hope this is of some use to somebody.

Quote from Jamie H. on July 14th, 2014, 02:51 PM

A nice smooth finished surface in my opinion would help dislodge the gas bubbles more efficiently.

Interesting line of thought :thumbsup:
Maybe part of solving the Meyer riddle IS to 'simply' find ways to more easily dislodge the gas bubbles which forms on the tubes, thus preventing unnecessary time wasted in heating the water and instead allow for the electric energy to form new bubbles on the 'just recently cleared space on the side of the tubes'.......?
After all, at the end of the day I'd rather have the electric energy feeding the cells producing bubbles instead of merely wasting it in an unnecessary unwanted heating of the water.

So, i figured it out. Medical grade stainless steel is 316L that is heavily polished. So, if you want a good polished stainless steal surface, I would just try to buy Annealed 316L tubes and manually polish them. You can get a better finish from manually polishing stainless steel than you can electropolishing. I do think that it would be worth the extra effort for cell efficiency. I think im going to do this with all of the cells i build. Might get a little tricky trying to polish the inside of a small tube.
This is one of the reasons i like this forum. I read stuff that just hasn't crossed my mind before. I think it just might help.

Jamie, if you get a moment, take a look at some of the work of Dr. Gerald Pollack.  Here's one for starters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q33KyLkP_Rg#ws

Think about his description of the "EZ" and how the plate surface might need to look microscopically to be most effective for our purposes.

That video gave me more questions than answers. I guess there is way more to it than i have thought about. Thanks for the push into questioning this further. I guess i should have put more attention into the entire thread. Going to have to build a generator that i change tubes in and do some testing.

FYI: Reading through Stan's book, he suggests using T304 stainless steel due to it being chemically inert to hydrogen, oxygen and, ambient air. It's decomposition rate is .0001 per year. He didn't specify if that was millimeters or in inches, nor did he mention anything about the finish. Just thought I'd pass that along.