open-source-energy.org

It's very crude ATM but it works.
Producing HHO ATM with very inefficient brute force flat plate electrolysis (unit can just about be seen in background of video) with not enough production to run engine direct from HHO generator(filling balloons and running from them for testing)
What I would like to ask you guys is, what you think would be the best route to take (easiest, cheapest and most efficient) to produce enough gas to run this engine, It's a 75cc Suffolk Colt lawn-mower engine  and I think it should only need approx 3 LPM to run at around 1000 RPM ????????????. I will be borrowing a very accurate gas flow meter tomorrow evening from a friend that works for a gas equipment testing laboratory, so will have better idea of how much it does need to run then.
I was reading somewhere on here I think but maybe elsewhere on internet (I've read so much lately my eyes hurt) about one of Stan's early designs think it was 8XA circuit and matching VIC coil that was working quite well with flat plate systems and is relatively simple to build and get working, albeit not as efficient as his later designs that are not quite perfected yet (I believe that we will get there soon)  but cannot find where I read it again. Would this be correct and would this be a good place to start ?. I have a sheet of 314 stainless steel aprox 1.5m x .75m  .8mm thick ready to cut up to make new unit but am looking for some guidance before wasting  this stuff on something that is no better than what i already have.
Not played around with dry-cell units before but am willing to built that type of unit if you guys feel that would be best.
I'm hoping that this build will help me get up to speed with you guys so that I maybe able to help this community to succeed in finishing off what Stan started as I am very impressed with what you are doing and how you all work together. So please point me in the direction that will help us all and I will do my best to help where I can.

You can try adding exhaust gas (Non Combustible Gasses) recirculation to make the gas you are producing go farther.  This was one part of Stan's system that was needed.  Tap into the exhaust and run the hot gasses through a cooler and back into your intake manifold.

Nate

 Hi Nate, thanks for reply.
like that idea cheap and easy to implement :). What type of thing had you in mind as a cooler, would a simple bubbler do the job ?

Quote from King Fred on February 17th, 2013, 05:01 PM

It's very crude ATM but it works.
Producing HHO ATM with very inefficient brute force flat plate electrolysis (unit can just about be seen in background of video) with not enough production to run engine direct from HHO generator(filling balloons and running from them for testing)
What I would like to ask you guys is, what you think would be the best route to take (easiest, cheapest and most efficient) to produce enough gas to run this engine, It's a 75cc Suffolk Colt lawn-mower engine  and I think it should only need approx 3 LPM to run at around 1000 RPM ????????????. I will be borrowing a very accurate gas flow meter tomorrow evening from a friend that works for a gas equipment testing laboratory, so will have better idea of how much it does need to run then.
I was reading somewhere on here I think but maybe elsewhere on internet (I've read so much lately my eyes hurt) about one of Stan's early designs think it was 8XA circuit and matching VIC coil that was working quite well with flat plate systems and is relatively simple to build and get working, albeit not as efficient as his later designs that are not quite perfected yet (I believe that we will get there soon)  but cannot find where I read it again. Would this be correct and would this be a good place to start ?. I have a sheet of 314 stainless steel aprox 1.5m x .75m  .8mm thick ready to cut up to make new unit but am looking for some guidance before wasting  this stuff on something that is no better than what i already have.
Not played around with dry-cell units before but am willing to built that type of unit if you guys feel that would be best.
I'm hoping that this build will help me get up to speed with you guys so that I maybe able to help this community to succeed in finishing off what Stan started as I am very impressed with what you are doing and how you all work together. So please point me in the direction that will help us all and I will do my best to help where I can.

John, for making conventional HHO, I have done a lot of digging and came to the conclusion that using a variac and a bridge rectifier with a multi-plate cell is probably the best option.  Green Fuel H2O makes a DIY cell where you can add however many plates you want:
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/diy-hho.htm
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/pl4x6ss.htm
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/4x6g.htm

Start with something in the neighborhood of 31 plates.  Set your amp draw with electrolyte after running your voltage to approximately 2 volts per cell.  Do not exceed 0.5 amps per square inch on a single plate--this will keep the cell from overheating.  These are 4 x 6 inch cells with probably 3.5 x 5.5 usable inside the gasket, so keep it under 10 amps.  Some say KOH is the best electrolyte; others say NaOH is better.  I lean towards the later.  If it were me, I'd start with:
http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/HHO-electrolyte.php

If your gas production is not what you want, add or remove cells as necessary.  Use the variac to set voltage, use electrolyte to set amperage.  Definitely use a reservoir, bubbler and flash suppressor.  If it doesn't work how you want, you can always use it as a nice little HHO torch, so your investment isn't wasted.

Something I need to mention.  HHO burns extremely fast requiring you to retard your timing a bunch.  This is a small problem.  The larger problem is that most all small four-stroke engines use what is called waste ignition which means the plug fires at the compression stroke and again between the exhaust and intake stroke.  The big problem is when you retard the timing enough to make the engine run properly, you also fire a spark on the early part of the intake, which if you can guess, will blow things sky high.  If you care to take a look at my project page:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=883

You'll get an idea of what I had to do to work around these problems.

HTH,

D1

Hi Dog,
Thanks, already defeated wasted spark with home-brew CDI system and running ATM with ignition firing at 15 degrees ATDC. Thanks for advice on dry-cell system but buying is out of question (limited funds) so I guess its down to hacksaw and manual labour to cut my own plates :( . Ah well exercise is good and I have enough SS sheet to cut 31 6x4 plates sat ready waiting to be attacked with my sharpest blade. What are your thoughts on making a box with slots inside to slide the plates into to separate them instead of cutting 29 gaskets as I could do that a lot easier on my CNC machine. As for electrolyte yes I agree with what you said and have been using NaOH for some time now.

Hi Nate, thanks for reply.
like that idea cheap and easy to implement Smile. What type of thing had you in mind as a cooler, would a simple bubbler do the job ?

Quote

Hi Nate, thanks for reply.
like that idea cheap and easy to implement Smile. What type of thing had you in mind as a cooler, would a simple bubbler do the job ?

Russ tried using a section of stainless steel flexible gas line for his genset test rig.  I believe that worked quite well to cool the gasses.  Other things I can think of are old transmission or power steering coolers.  Some of the old school ones were still made of steel and had a simple U shaped large diameter pipe with cooling fins on them.  I had one on my '88 Tbird TC.

Nate

Quote from King Fred on February 17th, 2013, 06:20 PM

Hi Dog,
Thanks, already defeated wasted spark with home-brew CDI system and running ATM with ignition firing at 15 degrees ATDC. Thanks for advice on dry-cell system but buying is out of question (limited funds) so I guess its down to hacksaw and manual labour to cut my own plates :( . Ah well exercise is good and I have enough SS sheet to cut 31 6x4 plates sat ready waiting to be attacked with my sharpest blade. What are your thoughts on making a box with slots inside to slide the plates into to separate them instead of cutting 29 gaskets as I could do that a lot easier on my CNC machine. As for electrolyte yes I agree with what you said and have been using NaOH for some time now.

Dry cell is going to give you better performance (zero leakage current) over wet cell, but it does require some form of gasket.  Sure if you have a laser cutter and can make precision gaskets, that's the way to go.  I don't know anybody who does.  If you can get a precision cut box and just use sealer on each plate, that should do the trick too.  I haven't been able to cut anything quite like that since my smallest CNC plastic cutter bit is 1/8" and my SS sheet is much thinner than that.  The other thought is to use form-a-gasket and just add some small spacers to get the gap set.  Seems like a poor man's solution to me.  Might be a tad messy but certainly doable.  You should be able to find or cut some spacers without much trouble.  Hack sawing stainless...  Okay, can be done.  Any chance you could get access to a shop that has a metal shearing machine?  That would make much easier work out of things and you could be in and out, about an hour if you have everything marked in advance.

I did a fair amount of thinking about making my own DIY cell and decided I just didn't have the tools to do it all, at least not a decent one.  Now if I already had the stainless plate, I might have kept at it a little longer.  If I get any more ideas, I'll be sure to post them for you.

Quote

Hi Nate, thanks for reply.
like that idea cheap and easy to implement Smile. What type of thing had you in mind as a cooler, would a simple bubbler do the job ?

Russ tried using a section of stainless steel flexible gas line for his genset test rig.  I believe that worked quite well to cool the gasses.  Other things I can think of are old transmission or power steering coolers.  Some of the old school ones were still made of steel and had a simple U shaped large diameter pipe with cooling fins on them.  I had one on my '88 Tbird TC.

Nate

already defeated wasted spark with home-brew CDI system and running ATM with ignition firing at 15 degrees ATDC.

Quote

already defeated wasted spark with home-brew CDI system and running ATM with ignition firing at 15 degrees ATDC.

nice work on all this.

i would love to ask you if you had any intention of sharing the " home-brew CDI system" so we all can use it.

this is something that is needed with theses conversions and most do not have the ability to make it work correctly...

if you recycle the exhaust like i tried you should be able to change the timing and get the motor to run better...  

with a load i found out that the timing was critical but at the time did not have the ability to change it...

thanks for posting and i hope you will get the input you were hoping for here on the forums.

~Russ

Hi Guys, not been on for a while as been busy building the new gas generator. Its going quite well but slowly as doing everything by hand :( (never want to see another hacksaw/file in my life). Got all plates cut and drilled, gaskets made and just finished front and back plastic plates, need a few more lengths of threaded rod that I will get tomorrow and then put it together and test. Will post more pics and vid when its working then I can get on with sorting out the CDI unit and post update on that as well.

Bye for now.

John

Quote from King Fred on February 28th, 2013, 05:34 PM

Hi Guys, not been on for a while as been busy building the new gas generator. Its going quite well but slowly as doing everything by hand :( (never want to see another hacksaw/file in my life). Got all plates cut and drilled, gaskets made and just finished front and back plastic plates, need a few more lengths of threaded rod that I will get tomorrow and then put it together and test. Will post more pics and vid when its working then I can get on with sorting out the CDI unit and post update on that as well.

Bye for now.

John

Gaskets too I see, very nice.  Now you see why I was recommending a sheet metal shearing tool.  That's a lot of cutting by hand.  So let me get some vital stats:
1.  plate dimensions
2.  gasket thickness
3.  number of plates

I have a calculator tool around here someplace that should allow me to figure out just what the ceiling flow rate can be for your cell.  If you are careful with your assembly, you should be able to get within 90% of that.  Probably going to end up with what would cost over $500 to buy.  DIY, all the way John.

Hi Dog, Plates are 100x150x0.8 mm, gaskets are 1.5mm thick with 90x140 mm hole (all cut by hand again, and still got all fingers and thumbs) I was going to use 43 plates but messed a few up so only ended up with enough left to build a 37 plate cell. I'm using "+ plate 5 neutral plates - plate" x6 setup. Let me know what your calc comes up with, I was hoping for around 2.5 LPM  but with only 37 plates I think I'll get closer to 2 LPM but I did notice a smaller sheet of stainless in same place this sheet came from so probably can add more if needed (not that ***** hacksaw again):(.
So far Build has cost around £100 so your estimated cost makes me a bit happier about the hours spent.

Thanks Dog. Unit is now built and leak tested :).

Do check it for arc-over; certainly fuse it.  A little citric acid is real good to condition the plates.

Unlike my setup, yours doesn't have any sort of generator or measurable load device.  Have you thought about using an automotive alternator, water pump or something you can load the engine with?

I have a couple of questions.

1. How do I check arc-over ?

2. Could someone please explain about conditioning plates, have never done this before but it seems like I should.

My first intention was to run an alternator off that engine I had running in video, but recently acquired this little baby for free :D.

As it's in almost new condition I'm going to use this instead, I will fit a new set of piston rings in old engine and finish that project as I'm interested to see if my original idea works and I also hate leaving projects half baked.

Reservoir I been waiting for has arrived and have fitted tube connectors to it, need to get 90 degree elbow fittings to run tubes better but these will do for testing.

Bad news is best production I have so far is 1 LPM at 35 amps :huh:

No idea where to start finding problem so any input from you guys is more than welcome. Going to try different electrolyte strengths later today and also run directly from a car battery in case my power supply or PWM are causing the problem, apart from that I'm lost for ideas.

Good news is I have managed to fit CDI unit and 2:1 gears to new generator and it runs (with ballon full of gas) much better than the old knackered lawn mower engine (no surprise there really). Think I have fixed the problem I was getting with CDI (fitted MOV across ignition coil), will do more testing later and post details of circuit when I'm sure it's working well.

What type of gas is your flow meter calibrated for?  If it is for pure hydrogen, pure oxygen, or air, it probably won't be accurate.  I think Russ had a formula for converting the values if I remember right.

Before you pump that gas into your motor, you will want to run it through a bubbler to scrub out any droplets of electrolyte--the stuff is pretty corrosive on engine parts.

Have you checked for all the little things like your connectors?  It would be nice if you just had something wired backwards.  Maybe you aren't getting good fluid flow back into the cells and a bunch of them are running half dry.  There has to be a good explanation, it's just not obvious yet.

What type of gas is your flow meter calibrated for?  If it is for pure hydrogen, pure oxygen, or air, it probably won't be accurate.  I think Russ had a formula for converting the values if I remember right.

Not sure about fluid flow as this is the first dry-cell I have made so nothing to compare to (will search for running cells on net to get some idea). Will be changing tube fittings anyhow so think I will go for a larger diameter tube just incase that is the problem.
Other thing I have noticed is that it only draws about 10 amps from cold and gradually rises as temperature rises, also gets hotter than I imagined it would seeing as it is running less than half the amps that it could be run at, doesn't seem to make a difference how much electrolyte I add and have added quite a lot in my opinion, although again I have nothing to compare with, my old wet-cell only needed a teaspoon full in about the same amount of water as this cell and I must of added at least 100g so far and still takes about 45 mins to warm up and start drawing enough current. Is this normal for a dry-cell ?