Thanks Dog, yes single feed ATM will fit more in/out ports and larger tubes and see how that works.
Post results later.

Hi all, still no joy, have fitted extra in/out ports on rear of cell with new fittings, same size as before as that was all I could get locally, but was assured that one tube would easily be able to pass 3 LPM so two should certainly do it, although now I'm not sure, will have to do some testing tomorrow.
This has got me totally baffled, and now starting to give me a headache :@
Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.

John

More testing done today and more disappointment. Have raised header tank as high as I could with longest piece of angle iron I had.

[attachment=3438]

Made no noticeable difference.

Also tried pumping electrolyte around system.

[attachment=3439]

Pump can move 3 LPM (tested with stopwatch and measuring jug) through system.
Still no difference.

Put electrolyte into old wet-cell to make sure it was conductive enough to pass required current and could get PWM meter to go off scale (meter will max out at 40 A) so no problem there.
Anyone got anymore ideas that I can try as I'm now 110% out of ideas myself.

Some good news is that I have been able to test CDI with all these balloons of gas I've been blowing up and has been performing very well so will redraw schematic and post here when done for all to use.
Thanks

John

Did you try the 1 liter bottle fill time measurement yet?

Another test:  Take your voltmeter and measure voltage across every pair of plates while it's running.  That voltage should be nearly identical as you move across the cell.

Hole alignment:  Those bottom fittings, are they inline with the bottom plate holes?

Something else I see that is a little disturbing is the discoloration of your electrolyte--rust colored.  That would mean your passivation process wasn't complete and the electrolyte is pulling iron out of the stainless steel.  Not good.  Don't know how much "not good", but may have something to do with your measured performance.

I really don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I think if it were me, I would take the cell apart and carefully inspect it.  Something has to be out of whack.  You should be able to get at least 75% of the expected numbers calculated.  Some of the plates may be slightly warped, something.  If any of those plates have the slightest amount of oil on them, that will clobber your cell.  Even just hand oil from touching them.  If you decide to tear it down, I would setup some pans like they used to use for film developing.  Get two pans of distilled rinse water; one pan of mixed citric acid.  Scourer the plates in a diamond pattern with fine emery cloth, rinse then soak in acid.  Let it sit for at least 30 minutes, then rinse again (different pan).  Use rubber gloves and go straight from the final rinse, right to the cell gasket for re-assembly.  While you are doing this, check every plate to see if it has burs or is not flat; correct as you go.  Check those gaskets too for bulges or thin spots.

It's a bummer you have spent this much time on your new cell already, but I'm afraid it is going to take a little more to get it right.  This is a learning process and no one seems to get it perfect on the first try.  You will get it though, if you have a little more patience and just take your time.  Don't make work out of this, keep it fun, step by step.

Quote from Dog-One on March 5th, 2013, 03:42 PM

Did you try the 1 liter bottle fill time measurement yet?

Not tried that one yet as not got anything rigged up but will do soon as I get cell working properly.

Quote from Dog-One on March 5th, 2013, 03:42 PM

Another test:  Take your voltmeter and measure voltage across every pair of plates while it's running.  That voltage should be nearly identical as you move across the cell.

Yes, voltage across each pair is between 1.92 v and 1.97

Quote from Dog-One on March 5th, 2013, 03:42 PM

Hole alignment:  Those bottom fittings, are they inline with the bottom plate holes?

Again yes, with fittings removed I can push a pen through complete cell.

The discoloration of electrolyte has always bothered me also, even with my old cells it was the same, and until you mentioned it I was beginning to think it was normal. Looks like my method is far from good :(. Will be taking your advice and tearing cell down for a scrub up in the way you described. Thank you very much for detailed method and explaination of cause.
Working on these projects is my hobby so I don't mind at all tearing things apart and rebuilding differently to get better/worse results it's all fun. What does get to me though is the frustration of not knowing why things don't work as they should, but I will get there in the end with the help of good people like yourself and others here.
On a lighter note and some good news, this setup is defenetly showing signs of OU. In a test run of generator done today I plugged a 500 W angle grinder into the AC output of the generator and was able to start cutting a piece of angle iron before balloon ran out :D. Using the calculator you posted with my cell info running at 35 A
the cell would be using 419.90 W, and I'm 99% sure the engine is not setup to run correctly yet as it doesn't run long enough on one balloon full to mess with timing/fuel-air mix (I'm old-school and do most engine setups by ear), so should get even better.

[attachment=3440]

Thanks again for all your help and support, hope I can repay in some way in the future.

John.

Quote from King Fred on March 5th, 2013, 06:56 PM

Yes, voltage across each pair is between 1.92 v and 1.97

That's a hair low.  Think I would shoot for a slightly more dilute mix and see if you can get the voltage just a tad over 2.0.

Quote from King Fred on March 5th, 2013, 06:56 PM

Will be taking your advice and tearing cell down for a scrub up in the way you described. Thank you very much for detailed method and explaination of cause.

You are welcome.  I certainly have my fingers crossed for when it's all back together, you see noticeable improvement.

Quote from King Fred on March 5th, 2013, 06:56 PM

On a lighter note and some good news, this setup is definitely showing signs of OU. In a test run of generator done today I plugged a 500 W angle grinder into the AC output of the generator and was able to start cutting a piece of angle iron before balloon ran out :D. Using the calculator you posted with my cell info running at 35 A the cell would be using 419.90 W, and I'm 99% sure the engine is not setup to run correctly yet as it doesn't run long enough on one balloon full to mess with timing/fuel-air mix (I'm old-school and do most engine setups by ear), so should get even better.

Very excellent news.  I suspect when you can get a run long enough to precisely set the timing under load, things will look even better.

I am mostly clueless what to expect as far as mixing air with the HHO.  Supposedly it is necessary to control the burn rate--the nitrogen slows things down enough to push the piston instead of bang the piston.  So in the fuel mix department you will probably end up helping me.

Quote from King Fred on March 5th, 2013, 06:56 PM

Thanks again for all your help and support, hope I can repay in some way in the future.

Again, you are very welcome.  How to repay...   John, the only way that makes any sense to me is to seriously document what you have done, written, pictures and video if possible.  It wouldn't break my heart one bit if every garage around the globe had a water powered generator that was running overunity keeping folks warm and out of the dark.  If you can help some to the best of your abilities to make a little of that happen, you're my hero.

Just found out some very useful information:

You will need plenty of air (Nitrogen) injected with the HHO and when the engine is running properly, the exhaust should smell of ammonia.  You will also want to redirect some of this exhaust back to the intake for recirculation.

Quote from Dog-One on March 6th, 2013, 03:43 PM

Just found out some very useful information:

You will need plenty of air (Nitrogen) injected with the HHO and when the engine is running properly, the exhaust should smell of ammonia.  You will also want to redirect some of this exhaust back to the intake for recirculation.

Link? to the info?

Quote from FaradayEZ on March 8th, 2013, 03:44 AM

Quote from Dog-One on March 6th, 2013, 03:43 PM

Just found out some very useful information:

You will need plenty of air (Nitrogen) injected with the HHO and when the engine is running properly, the exhaust should smell of ammonia.  You will also want to redirect some of this exhaust back to the intake for recirculation.

Link? to the info?

I knew someone would correct me:
http://waterfuelsecrets.com/

Spoke with Aaron in detail about it--pretty sure he is correct.

Hi all, Got cell apart and half way through scrubbing them ready for passivation. Two questions I would like to ask,
1. what is the recomended mix ratio citric acid/water ?
2. Can cell be filled with passivation mix to passivate plates or must be done before ?

Thanks

John

I'm holding a bottle of Citric Acid, Anhydrous in my hands.  It says:

Use two tablespoons for 4 liters of water.
Heat to boiling and allow metal to soak for 15 to 20 minutes.
Rinse thoroughly with clean water and allow surfaces to dry.
Repeat if any residue on the metal surfaces is apparent.

I suppose boiling would be out of the question while the plates are still in the cell.  So I'm thinking if you have a pan that can handle some heat, you could place some SS nuts on the four corners of each plate and stack them, so you wouldn't have to boil each individual plate one at a time.

I apologize for not digging this information up sooner.  I had totally forgot this chemical requires boiling to fully activate it.

Hi all, just a quick update to let you know I'm still here and working on this project. Have spent the last week cleaning and straightening all the plates (they were all concave from drilling port holes, should have noticed that before :@)Managed to passivate them last night and will be reassembling tonight.

[attachment=3485]

Fingers crossed this will sort out the problems I was having. Will post results good or bad later.

As for CDI unit, I have been testing by spinning magnet past sensor with electric drill and am fairly confident that it's working well :). so here is schematic.

[attachment=3547]

This is the gear set I made to get things working.

[attachment=3488]

And here a short vid of the spark it can produce.

[attachment=3487]

Values of Resistors R1, R2 and R3 will depend on what LED's and sensor you use.
I used a A3144 Hall Effect Sensor as I had a few lying around but any one should do the job.
I'm no electronics expert so am not 100% sure that circuit is going to stand the test of time, but it has stood up to a lot of abusive testing in the last few days.
If there are any electronic experts reading this I would appreciate any input good or bad you may have on this design.

John

CDI schematic updated 20/03/2013

Nice work John.  One quick note on your schematic:  Don't double up (parallel) bipolar transistors--they don't work that way.  One of them will get hot and the other one will do nothing unless they are both perfectly matched (which none are).  You can do this with MOSFETs however, because of their temperature curves.

All-in-all, it's looking good though.

Quote from Dog-One on March 14th, 2013, 10:31 AM

Nice work John.  One quick note on your schematic:  Don't double up (parallel) bipolar transistors--they don't work that way.  One of them will get hot and the other one will do nothing unless they are both perfectly matched (which none are).  You can do this with MOSFETs however, because of their temperature curves.

All-in-all, it's looking good though.

Check: Collector to collector and emitter to emitter works, but the bases needs 2 separate resistors,



I've connected bipolars in parallell this way before and got them working just fine, the only thing that's needed is the separate base resistors.

Yes, that will help control the thermal runaway but not entirely.  With MOSFETs by their very nature, when one of them conducts more current than the other and begins to warm, the load automatically transfers to the cooler MOSFET, so they keep themselves sync'ed.  It has something to do with the way the silicon is doped.  I read about all this in the past but can't remember the details.

In the meantime John, at least modify your circuit as Lynx recommends.

Quote from Dog-One on March 6th, 2013, 03:43 PM

Just found out some very useful information:

You will need plenty of air (Nitrogen) injected with the HHO and when the engine is running properly, the exhaust should smell of ammonia.  You will also want to redirect some of this exhaust back to the intake for recirculation.

Sorry to say that but IMO Aaron´s information according to nitrogen and his $7 pdf is a scam. Of course most of ambient air consists of Nitrogen and so everyone can see that ambient air is in fact nitrogen plus oxygen plus some minor ingredients.
Everybody knows what happens if a human has to cope with a 100% oxygen atmoshpere. it doesn´t work at all. so everybody knows that nitrogen retards human oxygen consumption. nothing new so far ...

Quote:
"Air normally has no color, odor, or taste. It is a mixture of gases, primarily nitrogen, at about 78%, and oxygen, at about 21%, with the remaining 1% composed of carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen, argon, and helium."

but what does that mean? at first you have to solve the problem for hydrogen production, for fuel supply and then next step you have to regulate for gasoline equivalence.

that´s no secret, that´s common sense published by stan meyer in his documents.

but is it the nitrogen that has to be ionized to get the process up and running or is it the oxygen?... that´s the question. AFAIK Stan says oxygen[/b].

Thanks for info on CDI guys, that was one of the mods I made to the circuit but forgot to update schematic:blush:. Will change and update post.

Bad news is I reassembled cell this evening and my last 10 days of work on it has made NO difference at all :(:(:(:(:(:(:(. Will still only draw current as unit heats up.
From cold start it will draw about 10 amps then slowly rise (takes about 1 hour before drawing 20 amps). Did a flow test using old-school liter bottle and was getting less than 1 LPM  (1 min 16 sec to fill bottle) at 23 amps :(:(.

Couple of questions I have for all out there:
1. What amount of electrolyte should I be putting into de-ionized water ?
2. What sort of temperature would you think cell should run at ?

I have no idea what to do now so open to anymore suggestions.

John

Quote from King Fred on March 14th, 2013, 04:28 PM

Bad news is I reassembled cell this evening and my last 10 days of work on it has made NO difference at all.

Store High In Transit  (SH1T).  I really thought we had it this time.

Quote from King Fred on March 14th, 2013, 04:28 PM

1. What amount of electrolyte should I be putting into de-ionized water ?

The manual for my commercial cell states:
Two quarts of distilled water with 3 tablespoons of NaOH.  Mix in a separate container and pour into reservoir when fully dissolved.

It also states that it is not a bad idea to add a little vinegar to the bubbler to help neutralize the alkaline electrolyte before it gets to the engine.

Quote from King Fred on March 14th, 2013, 04:28 PM

2. What sort of temperature would you think cell should run at ?

Certainly below 120 degrees Fahrenheit.  I have always heard current draw will drift higher as temperature increases.  So mark your settings for extended runs and let the cell produce less gas than you are after while the cell is cold.

I'll keep thinking.  If anything pops to mind, I'll get it to you ASAP.

Quote from bussi04 on March 14th, 2013, 11:13 AM

Sorry to say that but IMO Aaron´s information according to nitrogen and his $7 pdf is a scam. Of course most of ambient air consists of Nitrogen and so everyone can see that ambient air is in fact nitrogen plus oxygen plus some minor ingredients.
Everybody knows what happens if a human has to cope with a 100% oxygen atmoshpere. it doesn´t work at all. so everybody knows that nitrogen retards human oxygen consumption. nothing new so far ...

Quote:
"Air normally has no color, odor, or taste. It is a mixture of gases, primarily nitrogen, at about 78%, and oxygen, at about 21%, with the remaining 1% composed of carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen, argon, and helium."

but what does that mean? at first you have to solve the problem for hydrogen production, for fuel supply and then next step you have to regulate for gasoline equivalence.

that´s no secret, that´s common sense published by stan meyer in his documents.

but is it the nitrogen that has to be ionized to get the process up and running or is it the oxygen?... that´s the question. AFAIK Stan says oxygen[/b].

Having spoken with Aaron personally, I don't think he intends to mislead anyone.  He doesn't want to directly participate in OpenSource though, which is why we don't see him here.  What I gather him to mean is that the Nitrogen is essential in slowing the HHO combustion down enough to make it suitable for use within an internal combustion engine.

I have worked will this alternate energy stuff for a good number of years and have learned to not take anything literally unless I can prove it.  My instincts tell me instead of using Nitrogen to slow the burn rate down, use cold water mist to start a second reaction of flash steam.  If my idea doesn't work, then I'll look a little harder at the Nitrogen method.  John isn't using water mist, so I felt it necessary to let him know what information I was able to turn up.

Remember something guys:  The first one to the finish line isn't the only winner.  The first one to have something working, the sooner we all have something working.  Got it?  This is not a winner-take-all kind of race.  Keep the dialog positive unless you are absolutely certain someone is going down the wrong path and if so, gently persuade with facts and evidence to see things a different way.

Hi all, just a quick update on progress. Cell is now producing expected amount of gas (approximately 2LPM at 36 amps) Yippeee.:):):):). The problem was with my power supply, I did test with a car battery before and got the same results so believed that the problem was elsewhere but have now discovered that that battery is no good either. Latest test was done with a 120 amp car charger/starter borrowed from a garage. Have ordered parts to fix supply and will be doing more testing then.
Thanks for the info on Nitrogen Dog, I will test that out soon, have already tried with exhaust gasses and found engine ran smoother with it. My plan is to make a mixing chamber/manifold with 3 inputs for HHo, Air and exhaust gases all entering through adjustable flow valves so that I can alter the mixture ratio. Will post results soon.

John

Quote from King Fred on March 23rd, 2013, 08:04 AM

Hi all, just a quick update on progress. Cell is now producing expected amount of gas (approximately 2LPM at 36 amps) Yippeee.:):):):). The problem was with my power supply, I did test with a car battery before and got the same results so believed that the problem was elsewhere but have now discovered that that battery is no good either. Latest test was done with a 120 amp car charger/starter borrowed from a garage. Have ordered parts to fix supply and will be doing more testing then.
Thanks for the info on Nitrogen Dog, I will test that out soon, have already tried with exhaust gasses and found engine ran smoother with it. My plan is to make a mixing chamber/manifold with 3 inputs for HHo, Air and exhaust gases all entering through adjustable flow valves so that I can alter the mixture ratio. Will post results soon.

Most excellent news John.  Add a forth manifold port for cold water mist too.  You may want to do some testing with that.

I've been making a little progress myself.  Also about that manifold...  Make sure you have a way to put some vacuum on the cell (for testing purposes).  I'm not sure yet, but what I saw the other night with my setup leads me to believe that vacuum on the cell increases production rate, or at least it appears like it.  My bubbler went freaking nuts and started foaming up once the engine started and pulled a hard vacuum.  I have no throttle control so once engine RPM comes up a bit, the vacuum is really strong.  I was producing about 1/2 HP based on my known gasoline RPM curve and using less than 300 watts (37 volt @ 8 amp) on the cell.  

Pretty exciting.  Really something special to see an engine with your own two eyes running with only water as fuel.  Little droplets of water on the exhaust port, no smell, no fumes.  Cool stuff.

Houston we have a problem.

[attachment=3554]

This is the flashback arrestor I have been using for a long time with no problems at all, It's a water pipe repair fitting with end-caps drilled out to take a tube that is soldered in, it is filled with fine bronze wool and small stainless steel ball bearings (approx 1.5mm) about 1cm deep at each end and then stainless steel mesh to keep bearings in place. Last night while testing engine on balloon filled with gas it failed :(:(:(:( (glad I was testing with balloon though don't think flash would of gotten past bubbler and one way valve to cell). I rebuilt with new wool and tested by lighting gas coming out the end of a 6" long tube and all seemed well. Refitted and tried to start engine again. BOOOOOMMM !!!!!. Well I guess that didn't work to well then.
Here is the resulting damage to the bronze wool.

[attachment=3555][attachment=3556][attachment=3557]

No idea why this should start happening all of a sudden, but think I need a new flashback arrestor. Any suggestions from you guys on what is the best to use would be appreciated.

John

Quote from King Fred on March 24th, 2013, 04:11 PM

Houston we have a problem.



This is the flashback arrestor I have been using for a long time with no problems at all, It's a water pipe repair fitting with end-caps drilled out to take a tube that is soldered in, it is filled with fine bronze wool and small stainless steel ball bearings (approx 1.5mm) about 1cm deep at each end and then stainless steel mesh to keep bearings in place. Last night while testing engine on balloon filled with gas it failed :(:(:(:( (glad I was testing with balloon though don't think flash would of gotten past bubbler and one way valve to cell). I rebuilt with new wool and tested by lighting gas coming out the end of a 6" long tube and all seemed well. Refitted and tried to start engine again. BOOOOOMMM !!!!!. Well I guess that didn't work to well then.
Here is the resulting damage to the bronze wool.



No idea why this should start happening all of a sudden, but think I need a new flashback arrestor. Any suggestions from you guys on what is the best to use would be appreciated.

John

once I have read somewhere at the internet that those bronze filled pipes don´t work that fine with hho because some flame inside the pipe at one side can establish and then the whole arrestor fails. try to use those quenching lines.

Hi all, Ok have now managed to repair power supply and it's working better than ever :) so some progress this week. Still have to build new flashback arrestor and been scouring internet for ideas. Best design (IMO) that I have found so far is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh9BwibvWSU

But I would like to hear your opinions on this design, or ideas for a better one, before I commit to building one, thanks in advance for any help on this.
I was also thinking of using Glass Beads (slightly smaller particles than sand) from my sandblaster instead of sand. Any thoughts on this ?

John

Quote from King Fred on April 4th, 2013, 04:32 PM

Hi all, Ok have now managed to repair power supply and it's working better than ever :) so some progress this week. Still have to build new flashback arrestor and been scouring internet for ideas. Best design (IMO) that I have found so far is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh9BwibvWSU

But I would like to hear your opinions on this design, or ideas for a better one, before I commit to building one, thanks in advance for any help on this.
I was also thinking of using Glass Beads (slightly smaller particles than sand) from my sandblaster instead of sand. Any thoughts on this ?

John

I would look at this one closely and see if you can replicate it.  Doesn't look all that complicated.  Seems to me to just be a water filter housing filled with airsoft BBs.  They block off the center port and drill a new port in the bottom.  Supposedly good for 30 LpM.


Or just buy it if you can at:
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/pc-fb.htm

Also good to make a flash arrestor with an escape hatch for blowouts, instead of these pipebombs ;)