research information sharing

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #150, on August 3rd, 2015, 04:02 PM »
new vid from valyonpz posted, glad to see he is still out there!
it shows double distilled water in high volt field between two electrodes, interesting effect observed where the water is pulled up the electrodes above the water level. Anyone got an explanation for that effect?
see
 "  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwkKn-szbhs  "

kenssurplus

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #151, on August 4th, 2015, 05:12 PM »Last edited on August 10th, 2015, 09:34 PM
Quote from brettly on August 3rd, 2015, 04:02 PM
new vid from valyonpz posted, glad to see he is still out there!
it shows double distilled water in high volt field between two electrodes, interesting effect observed where the water is pulled up the electrodes above the water level. Anyone got an explanation for that effect?
see
 "  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwkKn-szbhs "
Yeah,  Please see The Fourth Phase of Water - Gerald pollack - youtube
The Fourth Phase of Water - Gerald Pollack 

See time slice starting at 3:00 min.

Watch the whole vid as it really has some eye openers (at least it did for me - and I have been in the cold fusion arena since 1990).

Gunther Rattay

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #152, on August 5th, 2015, 02:12 AM »Last edited on August 5th, 2015, 02:15 AM
Quote from brettly on August 3rd, 2015, 04:02 PM
new vid from valyonpz posted, glad to see he is still out there!
it shows double distilled water in high volt field between two electrodes, interesting effect observed where the water is pulled up the electrodes above the water level. Anyone got an explanation for that effect?
see
 "  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwkKn-szbhs "
my interpretation:

there is building up a water film between both electrodes. because the distance of the electrodes differs (up=nearer, down=further away from each other) water climbs up the electrodes to make use of the nearer electrodes.

in other words the higher potential difference up creates a pull-up effect to the water molecules.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #153, on August 5th, 2015, 08:14 AM »
thnx gunther interesting video. I'd heard his name before but never looked at his work.
It is interesting another view of the outer layer of water that is generally thought to be a couple of nanometers of aligned water molecules causing surface tension, he is suggesting another mechanism which goes much deeper.
Heres one thought that might be relevant to stans work ( stemming from the video):

stan assumed/believed all the water molecules were aligned in the e-field, and played a role in water splitting, I'm leaning towards its only very near the electrodes where the water molecules are being influenced or at least involved in water splitting in e-field.
Stan has been quoted many times as saying that any type of water will work in his system ( valyonpz is going down the track of only very pure water will work). Lets say the EZ layer ( exclusion zone of Pollock) is also at work in the case of stans type electrolysis. If its only a very thin layer of water thats being split right next to the electrodes, and if there is an exclusion zone also at work very near to the electrodes, then that might be a mechanism which supports stans statements that any type of water will work.
That is, very close to the electrodes the water self purifies itself, along the lines of Pollocks pure water zone. So even if its salty water etc, the water that lands up getting split is only pure water. That would assume that a pure water zone develops perhaps due to the electric field on the electrodes ( Pollock is saying that hydrophillic substances cause an EZ layer, stainless steel without charge may not cause ez layer, but charged stainless electrodes i'm guessing may cause an ez layer).
Another issue stemming from the above, would be that the left over water in a tube type setup, would steadily become more contaminated due to only pure water being electrolysed.

It would seem that valyonpzs' observation of water climbing up the electrodes is related to the water bridge between two beakers with high voltage between them, I will do a bit of research on it. Also the experiment where running tap water bends towards charged balloons might also be relevant.



brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #154, on August 14th, 2015, 07:42 AM »Last edited on August 14th, 2015, 07:45 AM
was just looking for any videos on stans injector to see if anyone had any results as yet,
came across this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XjfRchBPcg

I think the person who did the test completely mis-understands what stan was saying when talking about the injector as a waveguide. My understanding is that the cone section ( splitting zone) is acting to influence the voltage waves as they traverse along the cone.
The person has taken the meaning literally i.e. to mean it puts a shape in the water ( or gas I guess) coming out the end of the injector.
As the electrical wave pulses travel along the cone, the surface area over which they are traversing gets smaller, and this causing the waves to intensify ( perhaps changing the frequency?), anyhow I'm pretty sure it intensifies the energy of the voltage waves as they approach the tip of the cone.
I'm thinking of it more in terms of the voltage pulses 'pile up' near the tip of the cone, and the voltage zone becomes more intense the closer it approaches the tip. Nothing to do with the shape of the hho gas jet as it exits the injector.


brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #155, on September 23rd, 2015, 10:08 AM »
a new video posted by valyonpz:
" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=namRpMcrd84  "

valy has come up with a new idea of how stans circuits may work, he is using h-bridge as used in stans water heater, in conjunction with his gating circuit, he is getting very high voltages on the resonant coils ( somewhat lower on the water capacitor ).
I hope some others can study and discuss his work on this, it really needs some of the long term experimenters to give feedback on his new circuit and its ramifications.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #156, on October 2nd, 2015, 12:05 PM »
Interesting there are no replies regarding valyonpz new idea in his last video.
This link is non-related to valys' findings.
I watch just watching a video on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmlAYnFF_s8  "
Its quite a long video  but its conclusion I think is quite significant to water splitting process.
The video is about  how a new phenomenon was discovered that shows how sodium reacts with water in an explosive manner, and its due to coulombic interactions i.e. basic electrostatics.
Near the end of the video its mentioned that very large currents are produced for very tiny time duration between sodium and water.
Although stan was trying to achieve low amp draw, it may well be that  its the discharge of the capacitance between the interface between the water and the metal that is producing the hydrogen.
In the case of the video above, it is also the interaction occuring between a metal and water interface, which also produces hydrogen. I think the phenomenon shown in the video and the phenomen of stans water splitting aparatus are linked in some way.
In the case of the sodium in the video, it creates a very large surface area in a very short time, due to electrostatic interactions. Stan system is also working due to electrostatic interactions over a very short time period.
I would think that its possible that  increasing the surface area of interaction of water and metal in stans system might be a possible way to increase hydrogen production.


freethisone

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #157, on October 2nd, 2015, 07:36 PM »
san used at least one capacitor, therefore he also used at least one inductor. when dealing with capacitors things change a bit.

i posted a movie, read what tesla said.  and he he wanted low amp the use of the car as either  part of the capacitor, or part of the inductor .

inductor alone with high impedance will get u the low amp draw, but. add capacitors and it changes.


brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #158, on October 31st, 2015, 01:51 AM »Last edited on October 31st, 2015, 02:04 AM
Just some calculations stans injector. The voltage zone ( truncated cone shape) structure.
Truncated Cone Dimensions:
entry : 0.156inch dia
exit:    0.08inch dia
gap: 0.01inch
length: 0.993inch ( perpendicular height)
Formulas for calculations required from this page:
http://www.vitutor.com/geometry/solid/truncated_cone.html

Surface area entry: 0.00506 sqinch
surface area exit: 0.00276sqinch
Reduction in area ( of entry and exit areas) along tapered cone: approx 50%
At the beginning of the tapered cone the water ( and gases) enters through a 0.00506 area circular gap ( the gap being 0.01inch wide), the point at which they exit is a circular area of 0.00276sqinch.
This means a decrease in area from entry to exit of approximately 50%, water being pushed through the voltage zone will be compressed as it flows along the voltage zone.

Volume:
the volume of the voltage zone is 0.006813469 cubic inch

Surface area of the voltage zone:
There are two surfaces ( inner( pos) and outer(neg)): the outer surface area is slightly larger than the inner surface area. I've only calculated the outer surface area ( negative side):
Area = 3.57444 sq inch






Gunther Rattay

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #160, on November 1st, 2015, 03:47 AM »
What I don´t understand is why people using a PLL agree to it´s limitation to detect 90° phase shift. My idea implementing PLL function into PGen 2.0 pulse generator was to adjust phase shift to 0 ... 179° instead. How can people test near-resonance conditon without adjustable phase shift means?

Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #161, on November 1st, 2015, 08:07 AM »
And a bigger problem Gunther is that it only tracks voltage OR current, not both.  Any serious work with inductors will show you that you need to see and control both.

Gunther Rattay

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #162, on November 1st, 2015, 08:31 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on November 1st, 2015, 08:07 AM
And a bigger problem Gunther is that it only tracks voltage OR current, not both.  Any serious work with inductors will show you that you need to see and control both.
With my PGen 2.0 microcontroller based approach I can take as many input factors as necessary, setup a "jump table" for output condition(s) and create the frequency and/or voltage condition needed.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #163, on November 1st, 2015, 10:40 PM »
This is just a thought that might be useful for small scale experimenting if you dont have access to a meyer type injector:
I want to do some experimenting with stans injector voltage zone, without having the injector to experiment with.
Lets say you have two dress making pins with pointy ends facing each other with very small gap between them, the e-field at the end of the pin points will be concentrated. So it may be possible to experiment with very small amounts of water drops or even water droplets.
( another alternative is having the pinheads facing each other creating the voltage zone, but there wont be any concentration of the e-field.)
I found in a previous experiment that ultrasonic produced water droplets can pass through a glass eyedropper in a very fine mist ( under  pressure) so a continuous very fine stream of fine droplets can be directed where necessary.


brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #165, on November 1st, 2015, 11:35 PM »
some interesting search results from google can be gained by searching
"water field  dissociation energy 0.7ev"
Many different papers/info on dissociation energy of water.
Some researches are using  243 nm and 193 nm lasers for dissociation of water
( can put " 243 nm and 193 nm" into google for those papers)
arf ( argon fluoride) excimer laser = 193nm
krf  krypton flouride) excimer laser = 243nm

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #166, on November 2nd, 2015, 10:00 PM »
This research paper
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.7146.pdf
 is probably not much use, unless you have the intelligence of einstein,
which I dont!
 I'm trying to find information on how an electric field influences water, whether stan was correct assuming all the water molecules line up ( with the e-field) in the bulk water.
Or whether the interactions are mostly occuring right next to the metal electrodes.
The paper above is a model of how water interacts with metal walls, its dealing with voltages per nanometer ( V/nm), converting to voltages per millimeter would mean extremely high e-fields.
There may well be some answers in that paper but its way above my head to understand it.
My guess is most of the bulk water is not aligned with the e-field, its largely confined to the molecules of water a few layers thick right next to the metal electrodes, but I could be wrong as I really dont understand what the paper is trying to say.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #167, on November 2nd, 2015, 10:33 PM »
another good paper for the boffins:
file:///C:/water/ADA351521.pdf
relates to high electric fields/water condensation in high electric fields/changes in water relative permittivity in high electric fields.
A bit off topic, but it appears that water that is frozen whilst being exposed to a high electric field will freeze the dipole moments ( requires very low temps though).

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #168, on November 3rd, 2015, 06:03 AM »Last edited on November 3rd, 2015, 06:28 AM
here is another article researching e-fields and water, its focus is related to ice formation but has some very interesting information throughout ( some interesting formulas also).
https://gmwgroup.harvard.edu/pubs/pdf/1109.pdf

Heres a few bits of text that are relevant ( my comments in bold italics):

"  the complete alignment of water molecules in an
electrical field at ambient temperatures requires
intensities on the order of 1,000,000,000 V/m,
but partial alignment can be observed in fields
with intensities at 10,000,000  V/m because such
alignment causes a measurable change in the dielectric constant
of water. "

So 1 million volts per mm required for complete alignment,
and 10 thousand volts per mm required for partial alignment.
This might suggest that the wfc of stan is not aligning the water
molecules across the bulk of the water, since the voltage are much
lower, but near the electrode surface might be where the alignment
is occuring.
The injector though using higher voltages and small electrode space,
may be partially aligning the water ( though the e-field is diminished inside
water droplets)


Applying Electric Fields in Bulk Water.
In pure water,autoionization of water molecules
produces a constant concentration of hydroxide
and hydronium ions. These free ions can re-distribute
to form Debye space charge layers that screen electric
fields. Even if all ions were instantaneously removed from water,
autoionization would recreate the original concentration of free
ions. To apply external electric fields in pure water, we applied
temporally variable electric fields that had a rate of change that is
faster than the characteristic rate of charge creation due to
autoionization ( 20khz),and the rate of formation of the debye layer(5khz).

I think what is being said here is that water reacts to electric fields by
moving space charges ( debye field) which act opposite to the field that
creates them. What the hell is a debye field?


The minimum frequency,of an external sinusoidally varying electric field
that would not be screened is 3kHz

suggests that below 20khz not useful?

both the autoionization rate and the density of ions decrease as
temperature decreases.

Dielectric breakdown strength of pure water is:
for millimeter size samples:  10,000,000 v/m
for micrometer size samples: 100,000,000 v/m"

so max voltage would be 10kv per millimeter before breakdown at mm size gaps
For stans injector being a gap of 0.254mm ( 0.01") this might suggest over 10kv is
getting pretty close to the dielectric breakdown voltage in his injector.







Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #169, on November 3rd, 2015, 07:35 AM »Last edited on November 3rd, 2015, 07:49 AM
Pulsing and gating remember?

My feeling is that in a small local area near the plate surface, you are increasing this ionization voltage at a rate faster than the water can self-compensate.  When done right, this voltage only increases and doesn't bleed off as heat or some other way.  Eventually you push the voltage up enough to where you crack the dielectric breakdown threshold; that's where the phenomena begins to show gas production.  Before you reach that point, you will see no indication anything is happening.

You have heard all about plate conditioning etc, but I haven't heard anyone mention this...

Maybe what you are really doing is slowly bringing up the ionization voltage.  It may takes hours or days to do this, but at some point, the voltage is there and now gas production begins.  Once it starts, it's simple to shutoff and restart because the voltage is still there.  But if you dump out the water, mess with the plate surfaces, fill the WFC back up and start again, it may takes days or weeks to get back to that same threshold.  I also think this ionization threshold exists as a thin layer near the plates where the voltage differential is quite high.  I also don't think anyone has measured it because it is a thin layer with the water sitting above it and the plate sitting below it.  There's no good way to probe this layer.

Makes me wonder how many experimenters were actually doing the right thing and just got too impatient and ended their experiment before enough time had passed to reach the threshold.

What I will say is if you have the patience and get gas formation to occur, then you tune your electronics to maximize the production rate and don't touch/change anything.  From that point on, all you do is add water.

Gunther Rattay

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #170, on November 3rd, 2015, 09:25 AM »Last edited on November 3rd, 2015, 09:36 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on November 3rd, 2015, 07:35 AM
Pulsing and gating remember?

My feeling is that in a small local area near the plate surface, you are increasing this ionization voltage at a rate faster than the water can self-compensate.  When done right, this voltage only increases and doesn't bleed off as heat or some other way.  Eventually you push the voltage up enough to where you crack the dielectric breakdown threshold; that's where the phenomena begins to show gas production.  Before you reach that point, you will see no indication anything is happening.
So true. The same happens when ionization starts instead of dielectric breakdown.

And one more point: if the pulsing frequency is important then those dual gating pulse generators ANDing 2 separate pulses for gating will create duty pulse length mismatch for the very first pulse after and very last pulse before gating.

IMO those 1st and last pulse must be identical to the other pulses in between. So I have implemented that precision feature in PGen 2.0 for convenience and better experiments.



Matt Watts

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #173, on November 3rd, 2015, 09:48 AM »Last edited on November 3rd, 2015, 09:55 AM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on November 3rd, 2015, 09:25 AM
And one more point: if the pulsing frequency is important then those dual gating pulse generators ANDing 2 separate pulses for gating will create duty pulse length mismatch for the very first pulse after and very last pulse before gating.

IMO those 1st and last pulse must be identical to the other pulses in between. So I have implemented that precision feature in PGen 2.0 for convenience and better experiments.
Yeap.  And the only way to handle this properly is with frequency division--taking a higher frequency and dividing it down into integer parts the same way nature would do.

I (and many others) had the same problem with the Ruslan device until I solved it using a microcontroller.

When you are dealing with pulsed DC and inductors, the width of each pulse is actually more important than the repetition rate (frequency) of the pulse train.  Because if you do this correctly, you can get unipolar signals coming back out the inductor instead of typical AC.  Can you say diode?

Gunther Rattay

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #174, on November 3rd, 2015, 10:29 AM »Last edited on November 3rd, 2015, 10:31 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on November 3rd, 2015, 09:48 AM
Yeap.  And the only way to handle this properly is with frequency division--taking a higher frequency and dividing it down into integer parts the same way nature would do.

I (and many others) had the same problem with the Ruslan device until I solved it using a microcontroller.

When you are dealing with pulsed DC and inductors, the width of each pulse is actually more important than the repetition rate (frequency) of the pulse train.  Because if you do this correctly, you can get unipolar signals coming back out the inductor instead of typical AC.  Can you say diode?
I went another way than frequency division:
my pulsetrains are built from segments. each segment is a pulse frequency and they are concatinated without time delay. so you can realize any segmentation without need for frequency dependency. the only common frequency is oscillation clock of course ;)