research information sharing

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #100, on February 12th, 2015, 09:45 PM »Last edited on February 12th, 2015, 09:53 PM
another new vid from valyonpz
'   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIcQ3Ud-jqU#ws   '
This is a very interesting video, he has achieved step charging water to high voltage ( 700v) without direct contact of the water to the electrodes. The majority of the video he goes through some of stans patent statements, near the end he shows puharich injectors use glass tube to isolate water from the electrodes ( very interesting!), he then tests this method and still gets
step charging of the water!!!!
He also notes that breakdown of water begins at 1,000v was one of stans statements, and
later below the vid in comments refers to puharich info where he mentions 600v min, needed
for dissociation.
He doesn't show if any gas is produced.......will be interesting to see what is happening with gas production.
I believe this possibly could  be a major breakthrough, the fact that water can be charged by static induction has been known for a long time ( not referring to coil inductors here), but to static charging due to proximity to electric charges ( i.e the electrodes).
This will open up a whole new way of developing the process if he is getting gas production,

I'm quite excited by this discovery he has made.




Re: research information sharing
« Reply #101, on February 12th, 2015, 10:04 PM »
Imagine if it were possible to spray a very thin stream of water ( or water droplets) between two charged plates ( pulsing ) and it instantaneously turned into HHO..........that would be something.
Imagine if you could do it with non-pulsing charged plates ( that would really be something).

It does seem valyonpz discovery is indeed very similar to air ionisers, which use ceramic plates
rather than glass ( very similar), both having a very high dielectric value ( high resistance).
The blue glow maybe ionisation of gases within the water ( nitrogen/oxygen etc).
Although the water is not in direct contact with the metal electrodes, it still is in direct contact with
the glass, I believe the glass itself plays a role in static induction. The difference between direct contact with the glass and direct contact with the electrodes must be playing a role in achieving the high voltage charging of the water.
I cant remember how the ceramic plate in air ionisers works, that is something worth pusuing to come to some understanding of the valyonpzs' discovery.

Sulaiman

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #102, on February 13th, 2015, 03:21 AM »Last edited on February 13th, 2015, 03:39 AM by Sulaiman
A couple of things just occurred to me,
related to pulse energy storage/discharge water dielectric capacitors;

1) 10's of kV short pulses do not split H2O in any significant quantity.
2) if the water is not pure then the electrodes need to be insulated from the water to prevent wasted leakage current.

Which leads me to two questions;

A) has anyone other than S.Meyer demonstrated water splitting more efficient than straight electrolysis using S.Meyers approach?

B) have any of S.Meyers colleagues continued with the work?

If the answer to both A and B is NO then it doesn't look very promising.
The key question is B, if NO then why not?
No one could be nearer to S.Meyers work than his ex-colleagues.

nav

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #103, on February 13th, 2015, 03:28 AM »
Quote from brettly on February 12th, 2015, 10:04 PM
Imagine if it were possible to spray a very thin stream of water ( or water droplets) between two charged plates ( pulsing ) and it instantaneously turned into HHO..........that would be something.
Imagine if you could do it with non-pulsing charged plates ( that would really be something).

It does seem valyonpz discovery is indeed very similar to air ionisers, which use ceramic plates
rather than glass ( very similar), both having a very high dielectric value ( high resistance).
The blue glow maybe ionisation of gases within the water ( nitrogen/oxygen etc).
Although the water is not in direct contact with the metal electrodes, it still is in direct contact with
the glass, I believe the glass itself plays a role in static induction. The difference between direct contact with the glass and direct contact with the electrodes must be playing a role in achieving the high voltage charging of the water.
I cant remember how the ceramic plate in air ionisers works, that is something worth pusuing to come to some understanding of the valyonpzs' discovery.
Interesting vid.
Two points about insulating the cell: Firstly, will insulating the cell plates restrict the electric field to the inside of the dielectric layer so water is not in the field? and secondly if you can get voltage on the cell in a series charged situation without series current, will the voltage sit there in an electrostatic field without any stress on the dielectric layer? We know if we charge a capacitor to a 1000v and disconnect it from the source and then apply it to a cell, current will run in series across the water. Therefore, either there is a different charge relationship on the cell plates between the Q values or they are indeed insulated. A good test would be to strip down a microwave oven transformer and split the dielectric layer into two parts that has a cavity between them. Charge it up, take it from the source and drip water down the cavity.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #104, on February 13th, 2015, 03:44 AM »
Also, there could be a possibility that the cell plates are not actually capacitive in nature. If you create a self resonant pair of coils that have opposite polarity in both inductance and capacitance and you can extend the L/C reaction to the outside of the coils, then it could be that the reactance on each cell plate is confined to its own network and not across the cell. No reactance across the cell plates because both Q values are part of their own respective reactance in their own networks which is a stronger pressure than the gap between the plates.
Then the negative plate cannot react to the positive plate but still has a large voltage.

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #105, on February 13th, 2015, 04:15 AM »
to sulaiman: stans brother continued his work ( he was present at the meeting when his brother stan died......that would slow you down a bit I expect).
Lots of people have replicated stans work but it seems very little emphasis is place on comparing brute force electrolysis to meyer output.

to Nav: my knowledge is not good enough to respond in detail though the info below does assist in part.
 I am searching info on how glass/ceramic is used with high voltages.
One patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US3087056
Uses two stainless rectangular electrodes, the negative one has a piece of glass in front of it and acts as the negative electrode.
( the apparatus is not for water splitting but for spark suppression)
He states:
"Tests have shown that the electric field starts at the surface of the glass electrode 12 and not at the backing plate 13 ( stainless), indicating that the glass is functioning in a manner resembling that of a plate of a capacitor and does not act as a dielectric between the backing plate and the positive electrode 11. In fact, the backing plate 13( stainless) may be replaced by a point contact and in the absence or" appreciable current flow the electric field is essentially unaffected."
Both of the above points very interesting.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #106, on February 13th, 2015, 04:33 AM »
Using glass inbetween the electrodes takes me back to dielectric barrier discharge plasmas ( dbd).
This article has some of the maths involved
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0103-97332009000300015&script=sci_arttext

Also blue discharge is given off by oxygen ( was in one paper i came across on dbd)
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #107, on February 13th, 2015, 04:51 AM »Last edited on March 17th, 2015, 10:56 PM
deleted post not relevant

Sulaiman

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #108, on February 13th, 2015, 04:56 AM »
Quote from brettly on February 13th, 2015, 04:15 AM
to sulaiman: stans brother continued his work ( he was present at the meeting when his brother stan died......that would slow you down a bit I expect).
Thanks, I'll try to find what he did.

On the contrary, this will speed me up a bit,
It's just that I don't want to start investing time, money or my few remaining grey cells in the wrong direction, all are in short supply!

freethisone

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #109, on February 13th, 2015, 05:43 AM »
Quote from Sulaiman on February 13th, 2015, 03:21 AM
A couple of things just occurred to me,
related to pulse energy storage/discharge water dielectric capacitors;

1) 10's of kV short pulses do not split H2O in any significant quantity.
2) if the water is not pure then the electrodes need to be insulated from the water to prevent wasted leakage current.

Which leads me to two questions;

A) has anyone other than S.Meyer demonstrated water splitting more efficient than straight electrolysis using S.Meyers approach?

B) have any of S.Meyers colleagues continued with the work?

If the answer to both A and B is NO then it doesn't look very promising.
The key question is B, if NO then why not?
No one could be nearer to S.Meyers work than his ex-colleagues.
a longer pules of a coil say 3 to 5 seconds, at 10 of thousands kv, plus you will need the normal hho cell operation, and its pulse at 1 second in comparison.

i read it in a patent as a way to more efficiently make hho.he simply dropped a coil into the water, and pulsed it a 50 kv for a long period of tie. with a on off lagging behind the normal operation of a hho cell.

nav

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #110, on February 13th, 2015, 06:11 AM »
Stan says in his lectures that water forms the dielectric layer at around 78. When most people try to get high voltage on the plates, they act like electrodes and series current flows through the water and then becomes brute force because of the voltages involved.
Yet when people have insulated their tubes it doesn't work either. Something tells you that the capacitance on Meyer's tubes is some kind of parasitic capacitance related to some other reactance somewhere else in the network.
Could it be that you have two bifilars, one bifilar on the positive side and one on the negative side? One set of bifilars is reactive and the other is parasitic and the parasitic one, although it is high in voltage is restricted by the reactance taking place on the other bifilar?

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #111, on February 14th, 2015, 01:55 AM »
It will be very interesting to see what valyonpz comes up with next, he has been very active of late.
He doesn't post on forums anymore as far as I can tell, i dont have enough knowledge to reactive circuits to comment.
Though the fact that he is getting very high voltages across/within? the water whilst using glass insulator, does sound promising.
I wish I understood more about exactly what the glass is doing and how the electric field is transferred across it.
 A simplistic theory might be found looking at the glass in terms of static electricity:
Where electrons move around the outside of the glass simply in terms of likes repel and opposites attract. Rather than moving through the glass: the negative electrode having an excess of electrons ( or at least a high potential in negative directon), will via repulsion,  force the surface electrons of the glass to travel away from the negative electrode to the inner surface of the glass.
( the positive electrode same idea in with opposite signs).
I always find early research helpful to get ideas, for example leyden jars and the glass can hold charge might be worth looking into to.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #112, on February 14th, 2015, 02:10 AM »
just did a quick search on leyden jars, it does appear the charge is stored on the surface of the glass, though some storage can occur within the glass but is very tiny amount.
Interesting that leyden jars go back to 1745. Seems the first leyden jars used water inside a glass jar with metal on outside of the glass jar.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #113, on February 14th, 2015, 02:36 AM »
whilst looking for dielectric breakdown voltage of water, I came across this paper:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf

Its a pretty difficult to read paper, but on page 25 it goes into some info on stainless steel electrodes and other types,
they also state 1.5 X10 to power of 7 Volts/m is breakdown voltage of water ( distilled),
that would mean 15kV per mm for pure water
they also give 80 as permittivity
Its quite an academic paper but quite relevant I think as it contains information/formulas relating to water as a capacitor between plates ( it compares to water/ethylene gylcol mixture ( car coolant!) also).

Sulaiman

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #114, on February 14th, 2015, 02:42 AM »
If anyone does go for 15 kV/mm water dielectric breakdown,
remember that air breaks down at 3 kV/mm

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #115, on February 14th, 2015, 02:56 AM »
I dont think its very relevant to stans method, its just the voltage before pure water looses its resistance to current flow, if you put 15kv/mm it will just spark across the water from plate to plate.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #116, on February 14th, 2015, 02:58 AM »
this seems to be one of the first electrolysis machines
http://www.news.leiden.edu/news-2013/marckoper.html
interesting that in 2013 the mechanism of how the oxygen is released was worked out.
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #117, on February 16th, 2015, 10:02 PM »
a new vid from valyonpz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRstJRUi3_o#ws   '

Another very interesting video, here valy has used a car ingition coil with microwave diode,
to achieve step charging effect.......he also notes noise is coming from wfc not from ignition coil,
this is with the insulating glass between electrodes I assume.
really great work


Gunther Rattay

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #118, on February 17th, 2015, 01:23 AM »
Quote from brettly on February 14th, 2015, 02:36 AM
whilst looking for dielectric breakdown voltage of water, I came across this paper:
http://www.rle.mit.edu/cehv/documents/35-Proc.IEEE.pdf

Its a pretty difficult to read paper, but on page 25 it goes into some info on stainless steel electrodes and other types,
they also state 1.5 X10 to power of 7 Volts/m is breakdown voltage of water ( distilled),
that would mean 15kV per mm for pure water
they also give 80 as permittivity
Its quite an academic paper but quite relevant I think as it contains information/formulas relating to water as a capacitor between plates ( it compares to water/ethylene gylcol mixture ( car coolant!) also).
excellent findings, brettly!

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #119, on February 19th, 2015, 04:50 AM »
thnx gunther, that is a good article quite relevant but very technical.
Just another thought:
since stan has the injector setup as a waveguide where the e-field becomes more concentrated
nearer to the tip, it might be that the majority of the water splitting occurs right near the tip,
that way the possibility of shorting/sparking across the produced gas ( with lower dielectric value than the water) might be minimised.
Its a very narrow gap ( 0.25mm approx or 0.01").
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #120, on March 7th, 2015, 05:20 AM »
just a note for anyone wanting to try a diy meyer type sparkplug, you can buy sparkplug adapters quite cheaply ( not stainless steel i'm guessing), but might allow water/gas injection, via a tapped hole at side, and by extending the electrode might be possible to experiment.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/spark-plug-non-fouler
Re: research information sharing
« Reply #121, on March 17th, 2015, 11:23 PM »
new valyonpz video ,
 '    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqAhhxt99Ug#ws    '
In this video he goes step by step through resonant circuits, comparing parallel and series, then showing stans dual series resonant circuit ( dual inline rlc circuit), some very interesting scope shots of each type of circuit.
He also outlines the function of a resistor in parallel with water capacitor.
Near the end of the video he suggests that stans injector may require an insulating layer on the voltage zone electrode surfaces in order to work, and compares to puharichs' injectors which use glass insulator between electrodes.
Its a very interesting video. I'm not sure if I understand it correctly, but maybe the glass insulator in parallel with the electrodes, is acting in same manner as a resistor in parallel to the wfc. And that resistance changes the resonance of the circuit.





firepinto

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #122, on March 18th, 2015, 07:28 PM »
I don't see much room in the design of the Stan Meyer resonant cavity spark plugs for any sort of glass.  If I were to choose something as an insulator that can with stand a combustion chamber of an ICE, I would choose the same ceramic coating that they use on pistons and head chambers.  The question is, can these ceramics with stand electrolysis or Stan's polarization process?

brettly

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #123, on March 18th, 2015, 10:13 PM »
combustion wont occur in the voltage zone, so should be no problem, I dont understand well enough valyonpz theory to know if insulation layer is necessary or not.
I think his experiments are very valuable information, I'm hoping to duplicate his circuit once I have all the components. He has shown that step charging of water is possible when insulation material is used between the plates, and that higher voltages are achieved when insulation is used.
Something I dont think has been shown by anyone else apart from Valyonpz.
Working independently he has developed his own circuits and freely shared that information,
and he continues to work/share info via his youtube videos. I think its very worthwhile to follow his work, he seems to be at the stage now of moving from meyers water immersed cells, to the water injector system.  I just hope he continues to share his results, I feel they are a most valuable resource for experimenters in hho.


Lynx

Re: research information sharing
« Reply #124, on March 18th, 2015, 11:30 PM »
Quote from brettly on March 18th, 2015, 10:13 PM
he seems to be at the stage now of moving from meyers water immersed cells, to the water injector system.  I just hope he continues to share his results, I feel they are a most valuable resource for experimenters in hho.
So has he already got a motor up and running the Meyer way, using water as a fuel source?