Hy Lynx,

It looks like bob boyce made the same experience with monoatomic hydrogen. He also wrote that the reactor should be placed near the engine.

So we should imagine that in every hho reactor can create monoatomic hydrogen. We only have to use it the right way before it reacts to H2 warm up the cell.

regards

 

Quote from Amsy on January 1st, 2014, 08:34 AM

Hy Lynx,

It looks like bob boyce made the same experience with monoatomic hydrogen. He also wrote that the reactor should be placed near the engine.

It sure looks like it.
Shorten the distance between the cell and the intake manifold, perhaps even add a HV electrostatic field or a laser pathway for the hydrogen to pass through on it's way to the motor, just to preserve the monoatomic hydrogen as much as possible.

Some good observations going on here guys.:cool::D:P

Cheers Jeff, let's hope so :exclamation:

Hy guys,

in order, I was thinking about the atomic hydrogen creation. I found something, maybe this is not new for you guys, but I will put it in here:
http://www.citycollegiate.com/atomichydrogen.htm

One detail is very interesting: "Hydrogen gas liberated during a chemical reaction is always in atomic state, which is known as nascent hydrogen."

Also I found out, that hydrogen which is created on a cathode, has the same behaviour like in a "normal" chemical reaction. Electrolysis is a chemical reaction, which is forced by voltage and current. But there are the same chemical rules for it.

If we look at the "normal" electrolyses reaction we see, that atomic hydrogen is born on the cathode:
(H3O+) + (e-) => H + H2O ....

The time after it is born, normaly it forms to H2 and creates heat at the cathode.
So there is nearly no chance to do a cool electrolyses process in a external cell.

To use all the power of this process, it is much better to generate the atomic hydrogen where we need it. Indeed the high voltage will help us to form atomic hydrogen very fast. But we also need a little bit of current.
My trial and error methode show me, that in the injector, we have to solve 2 problems.
1. We need to electrolyse water into atomic hydrogen very fast. This can be made with high voltage (100-400DC), this also needs a little bit of current, but this helps us to do it very very fast.
2. We need a high voltage field afterwards like in a spark plug to ignite the atomic hydrogen.

I think Stan´s VIC (latest version) can do both. When water is inside it will be electrolised at a voltage, which depending on the resistance of the water. When all the water is in a gas state (HHO), there is no resistance any more and the VIC creates automatically the high voltage.

The first stage is "normal operation" of the transformer, it electrolyses with a voltage which he "can", depending on the primary side input.

The second stage, only HHO is in the injector is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-circuit_voltage , which can be very very high on such transformers like the VIC. I think russ showed this very well in his videos.

There are also some parallels to the "water spark plug". :D

Thanks, kind regards!

Hy folks,

I found something interesting about the oxyhydrogen chainreaction explosion:



Indeed oyhydrogen doesn´t explode like the easy way H2 + O = H2O. That is only the overall formular for the reaction. But if you look, during the reaction the monoatomic H is very important. It keeps the chainreaction alive during explosion.

Here are the steps in detail:











This is called radical chain reaction. The chain reaction stops when the chemical radicals can not find any partner for reaction. (O2 or H2). So the radicals react again together like this:



So this is very interesting:
-we see that the atomic form of hydrogen is very important for this chain reaction
-the chain reaction gains its most energy out of H+H reaction.
-the chain reaction only stops, when there is a local pysical end like a reactorwall or something like that, also stops when there are no more reaction partners
-the chain reaction seems it can cycle along, as more H atoms are in it.

Now, imagine, we do not use H2, but we use monoatomic H => we see, that we need no splitting energy for H2=>H+H.
As more monoatomic H, as longer the chain reaction can be.

It looks like Meyer read this somewhere or he finding out by trail and error. Because he tried to create monoatomic H with his tools which Lynx already mentioned. He tried to keep the Hydrogen in atomic state as long as possible. In the reaction above, you can see why this is better than in molecular state. It looks like, if there are enough reaction partners like O2, we could create an avalanche effect of creating H during explosion. To chance to create an avalanche is higher as more monoatomic H is present at the ignition.

We also see, that there has to be enough reaction partners like O2. So with the monoatomic H we can use ambient air to give this chain reaction some fodder :-) Maybe it is possible to create an extremly lean fuel explosion.

Thanks, Amsy
CU

Quote from Matt Watts on January 1st, 2014, 12:23 AM

Quote from Amsy on January 1st, 2014, 12:06 AM

So in this clouds, the only element which is magnetic, is the atomic hydrogen. Which is produced in the HHO Cell. Unfortunately, the atomic hydrogen exist only for less than 1 sec. So we have to catch it with a strong magnet, or we suck it as fast as we can into the engine.

So essentially it would be best to produce this atomic Hydrogen as close to the combustion chamber as possible; maybe even inside the combustion chamber as Stan attempted with his injectors.  Interesting.

So would you say this atomic Hydrogen is far more energetic than H2?  I'm assuming that is the case, but how much more powerful?  Twice?  Three times?  More?

I know heatlocke would be very interested in finding the best delivery mechanism for his cell.

==========================================

I have to read over this more

BUt the Key here is to test  style of magnets

and post the results

1
Insanley strong magnets in base of cell to a line gases on spilt

2  = or -  Magnet near ot on exit port for hydrogen and oxygen
(we may ned to consider if near port if they are a circle out port or rectangle
and if they are  electro magnet or fixed neo magnets, are they monpole to not to lock up of gas in exit ort o effect flows and or are they in centre to promote gas flow  

see attached


PS very good thread now.

Dan

Amsy

I have had time to read through it and check it

This is a Outstanding pc of research work

Very Well done Amsy
it is very significant to joining Final dots together on the fine detail on the
electrodes.

Awesome.
 
All the Best
Dan
Some items to remember

Stan used the Electron Extraction circuit to reduce the h forming into h2 and water,

This new knowledge is very important to understand as if we are extracting electrons
and using magnetics in the right ways and injecting led light.


The third one I would like to contemplate adding here is cavitation

if we are cavitaing the cell does it encapsulte the h monoatomic

if it does we have the answer................. A VALID WATER FUEL

YEAH - HYDROGEN BABY -- We need to focus on this research immediately to prove that is the case.


 

Hy dan,

it is a pleasure to see, that my hints are getting noticed in the right way ;)

To be honest, I don´t know exactly if bismuth will work as an electrode. But, it has some good properties like the low over-tension to hydrogen and the abillity to reject magnetism. The new thing is, that we now know, that monoatomic hydrogen can be influenced by magnetic fields.
So maybe it is possible to slow down or inhibit the H+H reaction with help of bismuth in combination with the neodym. Or we can lead the atomic hydrogen away from the electrode. Or even we can manipulate the clouds in the cell, like in the video.

Quote

Stan used the Electron Extraction circuit to reduce the h forming into h2 and water,

This new knowledge is very important to understand as if we are extracting electrons
and using magnetics in the right ways and injecting led light.

I think dingel and meyer do nearly the same, but in different ways. And yes, the aim seems to be, that the H is not forming to H2.
Meyer also do some more: He extracted the electrons out of the H. What it makes even more reactive for chemical reactions in the combustion chamber. This extraction of electrons is ionisation and can lead to a plasma.

Basically it is important to know, that we can produce monoatomic H in a cell. We only need to know how we can use it best way. We have to be very fast, because monoatomic hydrogen is only usable for 0.3-0.7seconds at standard conditions.
But with magnets, heat or electrical fields are no standard conditions. So we can influence this reation time I think.
Indeed the injector looks like the best concept, because we don´t need to influence this time at all.

I´m sorry that I used the dingel thread for this informations, but I think this new knowledge is also valid for dingles process.

Quote from imanes on April 16th, 2013, 03:27 AM

Some pictures of this system:

http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?thumbnail=3602

It looks very odd inside here - where's the honeycomb in this photo, is this a different access opening to those showing the honeycomb?  Sorry I don't know how to show the photo itself in the post!

I can't see that this link has been posted anywhere here, but it's certainly worth looking at: http://www.dinglefoundation.com/hhoblog/

Quote from Farrah Day on January 7th, 2014, 03:10 AM

Sorry I don't know how to show the photo itself in the post!

Embed the link within [ img] [ /img] quotes, like this,
[ img]http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=3602[ /img] , except of course for the space I put there before the img and the /img expressions.

Then it looks like this,



If you hit reply on this post you'll see more clearly what I mean.

OK, thanks Lynx, I'll know next time.

Yes, so that photo looks like the unit Dingle had in the car in the video (the link to which I posted above) but you can't see any sign of anything honeycomb there. In fact, for an electrolyser it looks downright peculiar inside. :huh:

Make sure you watch that video if you haven't already seen it, because it is quite interesting. I'd never seen that video of Dingle and his water-fuelled car before, and as videos of this nature go, although the quality is not great, it's quite convincing.

He talks about a gas regulator, which I assume regulates the gas to the engine, so acting as a throttle, but to me it does seem that no enormously great amount of gas is being produced in that electrolyser. Certainly not enough to drive on!

Nothing particularly high-tech looking. In fact it looks like he beat his WFC into shape with a lump hammer, lol.

And, just as appoint of note, it appears that he does not do any exhaust gas recycling of any kind.

Contrary to what some people seem to think, and after seeing that photo above, I'm erring toward the honeycomb thing possibly being a bit of a red herring.

Thank you Farrah,

It more looks like a joe-cell design than a honeycomb. :D

But Dingle had a lot of different versions of the reactor.... so maybe in his latest version there is a honeycomb seperator?

here is a dingle video in better quality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY9HSGp0Mnk

earlier cell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msFphgFzCyE

Edit:
Here are my Links to all videos I found on youtube about Dingle in best quality I found:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/umlip1g5wxdq62j/Car%20using%20Water%20as%20Fuel.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/submpohvxgg76j8/Daniel%20dingel%20year%201999%20-%20YouTube%20%5B360p%5D.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/37othgvashf6054/Dingel%20Reactor%20Demonstration%20-%20YouTube%20%5B360p%5D.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w1u6x9nkj79dth/Mr.%20Dingle%20Water%20Car.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqzbt99jkq63cfl/NEWOIL%20DINGEL%20WATER%20CAR%20video%20by%20Dansoriano.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8t6m44byk2rw7d9/Wasser%28stoff%29auto%20-%20Daniel%20Dingel.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ampjpebqfpq4a5u/Water%20Car%20...%20Daniel%20Dingel_2.rar
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8lev3eaufprwcdu/Watercar%20Daniel%20Dingel%20Filipino%20Inventor%20-%20YouTube%20%5B360p%5D.rar

Thanks for those Amsy

He calls the honeycomb mesh thingy a separator and says he has a separate output for oxygen and hydrogen. The oxygen being fed directly into the inlet manifold.

Just how he separates the gases in there with the honeycomb mesh is anyone's guess.

You can tell that the electrolyser is not delivering that much gas by his firing syringe display. If he can run an engine, that syringe should be full in an instant. But consider this too, he claims to be filling the syringe with just hydrogen: that syringe would not fire unless there was oxygen in there too. The plot thickens!

Nearly as much of a mystery as to whether he was a Dingel or a Dingle!

Quote from Farrah Day on January 7th, 2014, 10:34 AM

Thanks for those Amsy

He calls the honeycomb mesh thingy a separator and says he has a separate output for oxygen and hydrogen. The oxygen being fed directly into the inlet manifold.

Just how he separates the gases in there with the honeycomb mesh is anyone's guess.

You can tell that the electrolyser is not delivering that much gas by his firing syringe display. If he can run an engine, that syringe should be full in an instant. But consider this too, he claims to be filling the syringe with just hydrogen: that syringe would not fire unless there was oxygen in there too. The plot thickens!

Nearly as much of a mystery as to whether he was a Dingel or a Dingle!

Hey Farrah,

I don´t believe, that dingle seperated the gas really. You are right, when he shots his demonstration gun, he only sucked on the hydrogen tube of the reactor, but he was able to fire it. So it seems, that on both tubes it is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Or, he was able to produce stable atomic hydrogen and recombined it the gun. :huh::huh: (it is more a guess) :D

It tooks a long time to fill this gun, but he also draw up very slow... difficult to say, what is really going on ... dingle dingle :D

The honeycomb mesh only was a hint of him, but it was never seen. The picture of the mesh in the link, is only a demo picture. Somewhere I could read about this is not the mesh of dingle (EthosPete).

The tubes and connectors are all LPG stuff. A lot of cars in phillipines are driving with lpg.

In an other video (links above), he took off the hydrogen tube of the reactor during the engine is running and the engine stops immideatly. The reactor (hydrogen) seems to be main energy source.

So my theory was, that he could suck the nascent hydrogen (atomic) into the engine. Also in some pictures the air filter looks like it ionize the intake air.
So during the explosion, no energy is needed, to fracture H2 into H and H. (Chainreaction picture above)

Still thinking on the "hydrogen fracturing process" and the "electrical polaization process" of meyer. In chemical letter this would be H2 -> H+H or H2 -> (H+) + (H+)....
So the core of the inventions seems to be the usage of the atomic state of hydrogen. Specially I thought about the fresh born nascent hydrogen during electrolyses. Meyers patents indeed make more sense, to know, that electrolyses can generate monoatomic hydrogen.

I found some reasearch about this and it was possible to generate more atomic hydrogen when the electrical surge voltage was high. (e.g. magnesium). Magnesium has a standard potential of 2,3V. The reasearcher found out, that as higher the electrical surge voltage is, as higher is the production of atomic hydrogen. Which leads to heat. Also they found out, that high current density on the electrodes do nearly the same. Because when high current density is applied, the electrical surge voltage is rising. We should think about whats happend when meyer was using 12V in his demo cell or dingle was using 12V out of his car battery.

Thank you.

Quote from Amsy on January 7th, 2014, 11:34 PM

Hey Farrah,

I don´t believe, that dingle seperated the gas really. You are right, when he shots his demonstration gun, he only sucked on the hydrogen tube of the reactor, but he was able to fire it. So it seems, that on both tubes it is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Or, he was able to produce stable atomic hydrogen and recombined it the gun. :huh::huh: (it is more a guess) :D

It tooks a long time to fill this gun, but he also draw up very slow... difficult to say, what is really going on ... dingle dingle :D

The honeycomb mesh only was a hint of him, but it was never seen. The picture of the mesh in the link, is only a demo picture. Somewhere I could read about this is not the mesh of dingle (EthosPete).

The tubes and connectors are all LPG stuff. A lot of cars in phillipines are driving with lpg.

In an other video (links above), he took off the hydrogen tube of the reactor during the engine is running and the engine stops immideatly. The reactor (hydrogen) seems to be main energy source.

So my theory was, that he could suck the nascent hydrogen (atomic) into the engine. Also in some pictures the air filter looks like it ionize the intake air.
So during the explosion, no energy is needed, to fracture H2 into H and H. (Chainreaction picture above)

Thank you.

The thing is, nobody that ever visited him seems to have asked the right questions. It seems most people were pretty ignorant of science and simply looked on in awe.

Unlike Meyer's systems, Dingle gives no mention of any electrical control over his WFC, so how was he regulating the gas in response to the load? A simple mechanical gas regulating valve would surely create a build up of gas when not fully open, so when idling for too long you would then have pressurised oxyhydrogen building up in the WFC - a potential bomb!

I drive on LPG, so I'm used to the plumbing and pipework involved. But LPG is different in that it is regulated by the vaporiser controlling the amount of liquid that is turned into gas by the vacuum created by the engine. The vacuum created by the engine still being controlled by the throttle on the carburettor.

That photo of the inside of his WFC is just weird. Big heavy pipes or cables... it looks more like the inside of a kettle! Curious indeed.

If the syringe was full of atomic hydrogen, it would not ignite either. Atomic hydrogen is at a higher energy level than H2, so applying further energy in the form of a spark would, if anything, only serve to keep the hydrogen atomic.

i saw that video long times ago.he mixed with oxygen a little,not only hydrogen.he limited gas oxygen out by a clip.

thanks
geenee

Hey Farrah,

totally agree to you post.

There is nothing known about the electrical control of the reactor.

In the video there seems to be no air throttle for the intake. Maybe he used as much air as possible, like the diesel engine.
In one of his videos (link above) you can see a little poster on the wall where you can read 4%hydrogen. This is the minimum for explosion. Maybe he regulated only the quantity of the hydrogen to form explosion from 4% to 79% hydrogen/air mixture.

4% would be idling and 79% would be "full power".

Quote from Farrah Day on January 8th, 2014, 01:57 AM

Unlike Meyer's systems, Dingle gives no mention of any electrical control over his WFC, so how was he regulating the gas in response to the load? A simple mechanical gas regulating valve would surely create a build up of gas when not fully open, so when idling for too long you would then have pressurised oxyhydrogen building up in the WFC - a potential bomb!

Some would think this way.  From my perspective, if I'm making my own fuel and it's real cheap, I would just dump any extra into the atmosphere.  So the only valve or regulation I would need is a simple throttle plate.  The design then becomes trivial--make enough fuel to run your engine at full power and purge for any throttle setting less than wide open.

While searching for some information regarding recommended hydrogen/air mixture for combustion engines I came across this interesting article, http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Quote

Hydrogen has high flame speed at stoichiometric ratios. Under these conditions, the hydrogen flame speed is nearly an order of magnitude higher (faster) than that of gasoline. This means that hydrogen engines can more closely approach the thermodynamically ideal engine cycle. At leaner mixtures, however, the flame velocity decreases significantly.

Quote

As these calculations show, the stoichiometric or chemically correct A/F ratio for the complete combustion of hydrogen in air is about 34:1 by mass. This means that for complete combustion, 34 pounds of air are required for every pound of hydrogen. This is much higher than the 14.7:1 A/F ratio required for gasoline.

So at stoichiometric ratio, 34:1, a hydrogen engine can more closely approach the  thermodynamically ideal engine cycle. By mass the percentage of hydrogen mix would be 1/35 x 100 = 2,8%, which sounds really low to me

I also noticed the port injection system for hydrogen which seems to provide a more reliable way of injecting the hydrogen to the motor as it reduces valve timing overlap problems and it also reduces the chance of having hotspots backfiring the hydrogen.

Another interesting note is that direct injection during the compression stroke completely avoids premature ignition compared to injection during the intake stroke, however it does not necessarily prevent preignition within the combustion chamber. Also, the power output of a direct injected hydrogen engine is 20% more than for a gasoline engine and 42% more than a hydrogen engine using a carburetor.

This I really like:

Quote

At very lean air/fuel ratios (130:1 to 180:1) the flame velocity is reduced considerably and the use of a dual spark plug system is preferred

That's some ratio right there

maybe Dingle modifies a sparking after TDC.that can make a lean air fuel radios.

great info,Lynx.180:1 that is very high.

I have to correct my post above:
Dingle know from the honeycomb seperator in year 1999. (Video can be seen)
Also there is a intake throttle to see (bowden cable), so not like diesel engine.

Quote from Matt Watts on January 8th, 2014, 07:40 AM

Some would think this way.  From my perspective, if I'm making my own fuel and it's real cheap, I would just dump any extra into the atmosphere.  So the only valve or regulation I would need is a simple throttle plate.  The design then becomes trivial--make enough fuel to run your engine at full power and purge for any throttle setting less than wide open.

Wake up Matt, you're dreaming again, lol.

Wouldn't it be nice if the only thing we had to worry about was what to do with the excess gas we were producing? :)

Just like Meyer, Dingle's WFC is still as much of a mystery now as it ever was, and it's hard to really believe that no one has ever learned or gleaned the secret from him and blabbed it to the world.  You think someone might have nicked his car!

To make it worse there are also numerous versions. One version is that he used so many litres of water to so much petrol. Another version states that he was emulsifying oil and water as part of the system, and indeed one version seems to have him recycling exhaust gases too!

Now we also have this bismuth and honeycomb stuff to throw into the mix. Never really gets any clearer, or any easier... does it? :(


Lynx, that pdf file should be made compulsory reading. Excellent stuff!

You do have to smile at this bit:

Quote

Sixty years later, during his work with combustion engines in the 1860s and 1870s, N. A. Otto (the inventor of the Otto cycle) reportedly used a synthetic producer gas for fuel, which probably had a hydrogen content of over 50%. Otto also experimented with gasoline, but found it dangerous to work with, prompting him to return to using gaseous fuels.

Interesting how initially the liquid fuels like gasoline were considered to be more  dangerous to work with than gases.  But rightly so when you think of spilling liquid or getting it on your clothes and the possible risks as opposed to gas simply dispersing into the atmosphere.

One thing, regarding the air/fuel ratios quoted in that pdf. Remember that they are talking about air/hydrogen ratios, not air/oxyhydrogen ratios.

Quote from Farrah Day on January 8th, 2014, 08:51 AM

One thing, regarding the air/fuel ratios quoted in that pdf. Remember that they are talking about air/hydrogen ratios, not air/oxyhydrogen ratios.

Absolutely correct Farrah, hereafter I'm seriously considering building WFC's which separates the H from the O and dumps the O into the atmosphere as it's 'only' the hydrogen that's interesting anyway.

Plus the fact that I would be doing the World a big favour that way, could come in handy as the rainforests are rapidly becoming a thing of the past........

Farrah Day,Great explain.maybe what you said is the key.

gasoline(liquid) is not economic way(or best way).someone use gasoline vaporizer to make it economy.can make 60-90 MPG.

gasoline engine is not efficient engine,not above 35-50% efficiency.

water more powerful than gasoline 2.5 times by weight.atomic hydrogen more powerful than hydrogen 2.5 times.

atomic hydrogen more powerful than gasoline 6.25 times.if you increase efficient of gasoline engine to about 70-85% then you can use low value of atomic hydrogen(lower up to 10 times than gasoline value).  

thanks
geenee