I was looking closely at this picture:


Then I bounced over to this testing:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm

Then it hit me.  The water is acting as a capacitor but only to cause the delay in a typical LC circuit.  It's this delay that allows you to create a magnetic flux in the core of the VIC, otherwise with the windings the way they are, it would buck.  Think about it, you lay one winding right next to the other.  Notice the two windings have exactly opposite electron flow even though they have nearly identical physical placement.  What is it going to do...?   Zippo without that special little water capacitor in between.  Now if you can hang with me so far, the really cool part is what happens during the pulse rest when the magnetic flux should drop?

My theory is this:  It can't dump back out the input side because of the diode and behind the diode there probably isn't much of current path even if it swings negative and dumps in the opposite direction it was charged in.  So it has to go out the water side.  But here is the way cool part...  There are a whole mess of windings on the core, but they are tightly wound together and since there is no path back out the input side, it is my theory the tightly wound bifilar wires act as a shunt against the flux field dissipating.  Again, the flux can't be dumped out the input side so it doesn't even try.  As a wild guess four fifths of the input coil side are seen to the dropping flux as only a shunt and the last one fifth of the windings towards the output side does all the dissipating of the magnet flux.

Right or wrong, hang with me just a bit longer.  So what I'm thinking is you charge up the coil through a long pair of wires, establish the flux, then pause, dump the flux through a small number of turns on the output side.  High voltage, low current  pulses in; low voltage, high current pulses out into the water.  And SMASH!  You have electrolysis with high voltage pulses instead of the typical high current DC way.

So if you think I'm on to something, let me add just a hair more to the pie.  I think the output windings of this bifilar coil are extremely critical and must be tuned within 95% to get the VIC to function.  First thing, they current must be high on the output, but the voltage still needs to be just high enough to initiate the electrolysis.  Second thing, you tune this by the number of "unshunted" turns of wire on the output side to get the correct voltage ratio.  What do I mean by "unshunted"?  I mean the two wires are no longer piggy-backed right next to each other.  Lots of various configurations here, but I think the easiest to understand is simply separating them physically from each other.  On the input side they are side by side and on the output side they have 3mm between them.  Or...   Maybe we have say eight more turns on one wire than the other.  You get what I mean right.  The trick is to partly turn a bifilar coil into a conventional transformer but kill any (as much as you can) back EMF in the process.

Stan mentioned the timing is critical and has to be tuned to the water, the cell and probably the particular VIC being used.  I do think using a little Arduino would make this fairly easy and...   The WFC itself is part of the LC circuit, so it may actually help tune itself to some degree.

Anyway, it just made sense to me that the electrolysis is still happening with current, it's just by using the VIC we still only have to pay for it with voltage giving us a total wattage on the input much less than the output.

Quote from Dog-One on September 16th, 2012, 06:24 PM

I was looking closely at this picture:


Then I bounced over to this testing:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm

Then it hit me.  The water is acting as a capacitor but only to cause the delay in a typical LC circuit.  It's this delay that allows you to create a magnetic flux in the core of the VIC, otherwise with the windings the way they are, it would buck.  Think about it, you lay one winding right next to the other.  Notice the two windings have exactly opposite electron flow even though they have nearly identical physical placement.  What is it going to do...?   Zippo without that special little water capacitor in between.  Now if you can hang with me so far, the really cool part is what happens during the pulse rest when the magnetic flux should drop?

My theory is this:  It can't dump back out the input side because of the diode and behind the diode there probably isn't much of current path even if it swings negative and dumps in the opposite direction it was charged in.  So it has to go out the water side.  But here is the way cool part...  There are a whole mess of windings on the core, but they are tightly wound together and since there is no path back out the input side, it is my theory the tightly wound bifilar wires act as a shunt against the flux field dissipating.  Again, the flux can't be dumped out the input side so it doesn't even try.  As a wild guess four fifths of the input coil side are seen to the dropping flux as only a shunt and the last one fifth of the windings towards the output side does all the dissipating of the magnet flux.

Right or wrong, hang with me just a bit longer.  So what I'm thinking is you charge up the coil through a long pair of wires, establish the flux, then pause, dump the flux through a small number of turns on the output side.  High voltage, low current  pulses in; low voltage, high current pulses out into the water.  And SMASH!  You have electrolysis with high voltage pulses instead of the typical high current DC way.

So if you think I'm on to something, let me add just a hair more to the pie.  I think the output windings of this bifilar coil are extremely critical and must be tuned within 95% to get the VIC to function.  First thing, they current must be high on the output, but the voltage still needs to be just high enough to initiate the electrolysis.  Second thing, you tune this by the number of "unshunted" turns of wire on the output side to get the correct voltage ratio.  What do I mean by "unshunted"?  I mean the two wires are no longer piggy-backed right next to each other.  Lots of various configurations here, but I think the easiest to understand is simply separating them physically from each other.  On the input side they are side by side and on the output side they have 3mm between them.  Or...   Maybe we have say eight more turns on one wire than the other.  You get what I mean right.  The trick is to partly turn a bifilar coil into a conventional transformer but kill any (as much as you can) back EMF in the process.

Stan mentioned the timing is critical and has to be tuned to the water, the cell and probably the particular VIC being used.  I do think using a little Arduino would make this fairly easy and...   The WFC itself is part of the LC circuit, so it may actually help tune itself to some degree.

Anyway, it just made sense to me that the electrolysis is still happening with current, it's just by using the VIC we still only have to pay for it with voltage giving us a total wattage on the input much less than the output.

Makes good sense to me. What do others think?:cool::D:P

So have a look at this:


Forget about L3 since the VIC doesn't have it.  Now between L1 and L2 insert the WFC.  What do we have?  Pretty much a VIC.

Over and over Tom Bearden stressed you must have asymmetry in order to extract energy.  So like I see above, lets just separate the two stands on the output side and if that doesn't work, make one of the strands on the output side a few more turns longer.

I've ordered a few more large toroids of various core types to try this out.  This time I'll try to set my scope for differential input and see if I can zero in on just the two output signals.  Maybe with any luck I can see the charge pulses go through the water and the kickback of the toroid when the field collapses.  Seems to me I recall the schematic diagram of the WFC as being a capacitor with a fairly low resistance resistor in parallel, so maybe I should use distilled water initially to better see the charge pulses.

I know this concept is a little hard to visualize from just a drawing, so I'll maybe do a video or screencast that makes it a little easier to see in your head.  First I need to prove it and like many times in the past, the scope doesn't lie.

So basically it's a step down converter you're describing then?
I would have thought that it was the other way around, applying
low voltage/high current on the input to the VIC and get
high voltage/low current in a resonant tuned pulse train into the
water, thus fracturing it into HHO.
Applying low voltage on for example distilled water wouldn't give
all that high a current running through it, but then who knows, i've
still to witness a WFC running in resonant action as per Stanley Meyer,
so you may actually be on to something here :cool:

Quote from Lynx on September 17th, 2012, 02:14 AM

So basically it's a step down converter you're describing then?
I would have thought that it was the other way around, applying
low voltage/high current on the input to the VIC and get
high voltage/low current in a resonant tuned pulse train into the
water, thus fracturing it into HHO.
Applying low voltage on for example distilled water wouldn't give
all that high a current running through it, but then who knows, i've
still to witness a WFC running in resonant action as per Stanley Meyer,
so you may actually be on to something here :cool:

Stan stated he used no more than 1/2 an amp on the input side with high voltage, also two choke coils, one on each side of the WFC, actually the sparkplug,  with one "L2" being adjustable.:D:P

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 17th, 2012, 06:19 AM

Quote from Lynx on September 17th, 2012, 02:14 AM

So basically it's a step down converter you're describing then?
I would have thought that it was the other way around, applying
low voltage/high current on the input to the VIC and get
high voltage/low current in a resonant tuned pulse train into the
water, thus fracturing it into HHO.
Applying low voltage on for example distilled water wouldn't give
all that high a current running through it, but then who knows, i've
still to witness a WFC running in resonant action as per Stanley Meyer,
so you may actually be on to something here :cool:

Stan stated he used no more than 1/2 an amp on the input side with high voltage, also two choke coils, one on each side of the WFC, actually the sparkplug,  with one "L2" being adjustable.:D:P

Okidok, thanks.

Stan's use of terminology is probably the number one reason there hasn't been numerous replications.  Also, Stan had an overarching goal to expand his church and needed money to do it which he intended to get from his technology (watch the video below--about 18 minutes in).  So quite literally I can see him writing his patent with language that would make it very difficult to understand and replicate.  Can't say I blame him though.  Personally, I'm much happier with Russ' approach to immediately OpenSource everything.  It makes things far more safe for all of us.  Anytime someone hides the truth for personal gain, it takes away from everyone.  I think in Stan's case we can say, "been there, done that, didn't work."  Maybe this go around someone will figure out what is really going on and the concept will spread like wild fire; then it's just a matter of applying the details to the concept.

So yeah, I think it is quite possible the VIC (Voltage Intensifier Circuit) doesn't really do what the name implies or what we may have thought all along.  I have yet to prove it either way, but I do have an idea and hopefully before too much longer I can at least prune the other side of the tree.

/watch?v=i1r08iWGqCI

Quote from Dog-One on September 17th, 2012, 05:16 PM

Stan's use of terminology is probably the number one reason there hasn't been numerous replications.  Also, Stan had an overarching goal to expand his church and needed money to do it which he intended to get from his technology (watch the video below--about 18 minutes in).  So quite literally I can see him writing his patent with language that would make it very difficult to understand and replicate.  Can't say I blame him though.  Personally, I'm much happier with Russ' approach to immediately OpenSource everything.  It makes things far more safe for all of us.  Anytime someone hides the truth for personal gain, it takes away from everyone.  I think in Stan's case we can say, "been there, done that, didn't work."  Maybe this go around someone will figure out what is really going on and the concept will spread like wild fire; then it's just a matter of applying the details to the concept.

So yeah, I think it is quite possible the VIC (Voltage Intensifier Circuit) doesn't really do what the name implies or what we may have thought all along.  I have yet to prove it either way, but I do have an idea and hopefully before too much longer I can at least prune the other side of the tree.

/watch?v=i1r08iWGqCI

To, I think allot of people have a misconception about the water fuel cell, Stan used this just as a stepping stone to develop the water injection sparkplug, if all can look at this video, 27.44 minutes in, you will see he states this fact, the end result being the water injection sparkplug. I think that's why allot of us are getting different kinds of results from scope shots and so on, because no one I know of is using Stan's exact water fuel cell [replication] to test with, if that were the case, or if we were to copy Stan's WFC exactly, use what we learn, apply that knowledge to the sparkplug, I think we would be much further along than we are.:D

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 17th, 2012, 08:24 PM

To, I think allot of people have a misconception about the water fuel cell, Stan used this just as a stepping stone to develop the water injection sparkplug, if all can look at this video, 27.44 minutes in, you will see he states this fact, the end result being the water injection sparkplug. I think that's why allot of us are getting different kinds of results from scope shots and so on, because no one I know of is using Stan's exact water fuel cell [replication] to test with, if that were the case, or if we were to copy Stan's WFC exactly, use what we learn, apply that knowledge to the sparkplug, I think we would be much further along than we are.:D

So true.  I like the WFC better than the sparkplug just for the simple fact it becomes a general purpose HHO generator.  It would be really cool to just plug in a little 12v 1A power brick and hook up a torch to weld with or shoot a little HHO into a stubborn lawn mower engine.  Imagine a solar panel on the roof generating enough electricity to run a nice little HHO heater for the shop.  The uses for a low power functioning WFC are endless.  That was always a good enough solution for me.  It also seemed logical to get something basic working before moving on to more complex and elaborate designs.  Plus, if the basic design of the WFC could be coupled to a conventional engine/generator in a closed loop fashion and show overunity, the concepts are clearly sound and we know for a fact this is not a hoax or scam of any type.  At that point I say let the young bucks like Russ take it and run with it as far as their imaginations can go.

The thing that I still kick myself over is not being able to show my Pappy a working prototype before he died.  He really pushed me and helped me think things through.  He had as much fun watching me come up with ideas and work on this stuff as I did actually doing it.  Several times it appeared that I was so close, but after careful analysis it became clear the goal remained elusive.

Over in the project sections of http://waterfuelcell.org/ there should be some pictures of the WFC I built years ago.  It worked fine with conventional DC but I was never able to run it low power.  Tried lots of variations.  No joy.

Quote

young bucks like Russ take it and run with it as far as their imaginations can go.

:)

i believe Stan was real and what he had was real, i also think he started to get lost in his own discovery,
but i feel what he had was real...

more to work on for stan's tech! time time time...

Blessings! ~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 18th, 2012, 12:54 AM

i believe Stan was real and what he had was real, i also think he started to get lost in his own discovery, but i feel what he had was real...

more to work on for stan's tech! time time time...

Blessings! ~Russ

Good to hear from you Russ,

I have little doubt he created something special--what I would give to have some of it in my garage...

I do think what he built wasn't explained/documented the same way as instructions for assembling a child's swing set.  I know if I ever figure out what the "magic" to it is and build an operable unit, I will personally build at least three more complete units and happily give them away while writing and publishing step-by-step instructions for the one I keep.  Even if I don't fully understand how it works, I need to be able to clone the thing for someone else to analyze.  We all need working devices in our hands.  That's a "must be".  Hope I get there.  Time will tell.

Quote from Dog-One on September 18th, 2012, 05:33 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 18th, 2012, 12:54 AM

i believe Stan was real and what he had was real, i also think he started to get lost in his own discovery, but i feel what he had was real...

more to work on for stan's tech! time time time...

Blessings! ~Russ

Good to hear from you Russ,

I have little doubt he created something special--what I would give to have some of it in my garage...

I do think what he built wasn't explained/documented the same way as instructions for assembling a child's swing set.  I know if I ever figure out what the "magic" to it is and build an operable unit, I will personally build at least three more complete units and happily give them away while writing and publishing step-by-step instructions for the one I keep.  Even if I don't fully understand how it works, I need to be able to clone the thing for someone else to analyze.  We all need working devices in our hands.  That's a "must be".  Hope I get there.  Time will tell.

hey, yesh, i don think what stan was doing what hard, it is not " magic" its just he knew what needed to be done to get it to work like he wanted.

I believe it is all extremely simple. we are looking at it to hard, its simple. we just got to sit back and ponder... its all right in front of us. i do believe!

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 19th, 2012, 03:24 AM

Quote from Dog-One on September 18th, 2012, 05:33 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on September 18th, 2012, 12:54 AM

i believe Stan was real and what he had was real, i also think he started to get lost in his own discovery, but i feel what he had was real...

more to work on for stan's tech! time time time...

Blessings! ~Russ

Good to hear from you Russ,

I have little doubt he created something special--what I would give to have some of it in my garage...

I do think what he built wasn't explained/documented the same way as instructions for assembling a child's swing set.  I know if I ever figure out what the "magic" to it is and build an operable unit, I will personally build at least three more complete units and happily give them away while writing and publishing step-by-step instructions for the one I keep.  Even if I don't fully understand how it works, I need to be able to clone the thing for someone else to analyze.  We all need working devices in our hands.  That's a "must be".  Hope I get there.  Time will tell.

hey, yesh, i don think what stan was doing what hard, it is not " magic" its just he knew what needed to be done to get it to work like he wanted.

I believe it is all extremely simple. we are looking at it to hard, its simple. we just got to sit back and ponder... its all right in front of us. i do believe!

~Russ

I´m sure it has to be calculated. Those calculations for magnetic flux, saturation, stray capacitance, mutual inductance etc. are no easy way going. For example think about pulse forming network 'yes or no' ?!? Those questions must be answered. For trial and error there are too many alternatives.

Who wants to jump into that here at the forum?

I would have to agree with you Bussi. If Stan's work was easy or simple to replicate it would have been done already, all we can do is just press on to find the answers. :D

I think to some degree you also need to look at the prevailing theories of his day as he developed his ideas.  Stan was the first to admit that his best asset was his ability to understand things others had come up with and execute them well.  I would imagine that it is easier to have a good understanding of the goal of his endeavours than to try and reverse engineer from that goal, as you lose sight along the way of what is truly important to the overall goal and what is not.

I know, easier said than done when there is not much to go on, but he strikes me as the type to have been up to date on previous patents (as well as those filed when he was working) and lets not forget that many inventors are excellent at taking a patented idea and adding their own unique twist through re-combining ideas.

I've been studying the newer design:


Seems to me there must be things in common and things that differ, with the newer design being more optimal.  In the newer design it is pretty clear this is a step-up transformer at the outset.  It does seem overly complex for just that simple function, so again, I think there is more to it...

I recall running my signal generator in a sweep all the way from 20Hz to 20KHz and never spotting anything that appeared to be resonance.  I also recall trying a step-up transformer that was producing an unloaded output voltage of about 800V but when connected to the WFC it was shunted to zero all the way through the frequency spectrum.  This is why I concluded voltage wasn't actually responsible for cracking the water molecules.  I figured there must be more going on than meets the eye.  Maybe current cracks the molecule and voltage speeds things up.  I'm wondering if the newer design allows for this having three semi-independent output coils tied in series.  Maybe the center winding cracks and the other two end windings expel.  If this is true, the wire size probably needs to be rather large for the initial current crack, after which voltage takes over.  So again, not fully understanding how the VIC works, I may have assumed manually sweeping the spectrum with only voltage would have found the sweet spot.  Now I'm not thinking that was not quite correct.  Probably needs to be done in a two phase approach--hit the water with current, then with voltage and look for a ringing in the output.  It's quite possible once the water is ringing at some resonant frequency, then and only then can you sustain the conversion from liquid to gas with pure voltage.  Trying to start the conversion with voltage is likely a dead end and scanning only with current a dead end too.

If any of you guys can look at this latest circuit and formulate/articulate how it may support both attributes of current and voltage, I'd really like to hear your explanation.  Please focus only on the transformer piece as I am quite confident with modern electronics I can produce any sort of input waveform necessary.  What I'm interested in is the windings and how they may be able to handle my latest theory.  Then maybe I can supply the proper input.  Also, if someone can explain why there is a ground attached between TX5 and TX2, that would be helpful, as I cannot see any purpose in it since the winding are completely isolated from the rest of the circuit--unless...   The WFC has a path to VCC that isn't shown, which could possibly explain where the current for the inital crack comes from.

Also, what does "Unipolar Magnet Field" mean?  One direction only?  Or something more complicated?

Oh, and one other thing Russ...   When you get old and your grey matter begins to turn black...   Nothing is easy anymore.   Not even going to the bathroom.  :D

Quote from Dog-One on September 19th, 2012, 11:00 PM

If any of you guys can look at this latest circuit and formulate/articulate how it may support both attributes of current and voltage, I'd really like to hear your explanation.  Please focus only on the transformer piece as I am quite confident with modern electronics I can produce any sort of input waveform necessary.

That's what I also think is the most important thing about Stan's HHO cell, understanding how the VIC works, because as you say there's more advanced electronics available nowadays which would enable me to create just about any waveform @ any frequency, voltage etc.
I have also put my frequency generator on sweep from let's say 20 to 2000 Hz, low sweeping frequency and observing what's going on in the HHO in terms of voltage, current, gas output, temperature, sound (!) etc.
And when I get nothing, which is all I've got so far btw, I up the frequency range from 2000 to 4000 Hz and repeat my observations.

And so on and so on, until I've reached something in the order or 30 Khz, which I think should be more than enough in terms of upper frequency range for a resonant
acting HHO cell as per Stanley Meyer.

But, alas, still nothing.

The secret HAS to be in understanding the VIC, I'm just convinced about that.

Judging by his latest video on youtube it looks like Max Miller (irondmax) has had a pretty big breakthrough on this tech now - maybe he can help satisfy your curiosity on some of these key theories?

Again I think the water fuel cell will only help us to a degree, if we were to use a small amount of water that has been treated with the rest of Stan's process then run this though a water injection sparkplug, I think we would see greater results.:D

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 20th, 2012, 06:03 AM

Again I think the water fuel cell will only help us to a degree, if we were to use a small amount of water that has been treated with the rest of Stan's process then run this though a water injection sparkplug, I think we would see greater results.:D

I personally think that Stan's water fuel cell alone would give you all the necessary
HHO you'd need to power your car, lawn mower, what have you.
If you look at the development of Stan's WFC tech he started out with the 'single'
WFC, which he then refined in order to end up with the water injection sparkplugs.
A simple case of learning how to crawl before you can stand up and walk.
JMO :cool:

Quote from Lynx on September 20th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 20th, 2012, 06:03 AM

Again I think the water fuel cell will only help us to a degree, if we were to use a small amount of water that has been treated with the rest of Stan's process then run this though a water injection sparkplug, I think we would see greater results.:D

I personally think that Stan's water fuel cell alone would give you all the necessary
HHO you'd need to power your car, lawn mower, what have you.
If you look at the development of Stan's WFC tech he started out with the 'single'
WFC, which he then refined in order to end up with the water injection sparkplugs.
A simple case of learning how to crawl before you can stand up and walk.
JMO :cool:

Yes, but there again you would be storing HHO, very dangerous, to put it bluntly, you might have to crawl if you got your legs blown off, the idea is not to store any at all, then we would have something, I would personally not want to store any.:D

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 20th, 2012, 10:24 AM

Quote from Lynx on September 20th, 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote from Jeff Nading on September 20th, 2012, 06:03 AM

Again I think the water fuel cell will only help us to a degree, if we were to use a small amount of water that has been treated with the rest of Stan's process then run this though a water injection sparkplug, I think we would see greater results.:D

I personally think that Stan's water fuel cell alone would give you all the necessary
HHO you'd need to power your car, lawn mower, what have you.
If you look at the development of Stan's WFC tech he started out with the 'single'
WFC, which he then refined in order to end up with the water injection sparkplugs.
A simple case of learning how to crawl before you can stand up and walk.
JMO :cool:

Yes, but there again you would be storing HHO, very dangerous, to put it bluntly, you might have to crawl if you got your legs blown off, the idea is not to store any at all, then we would have something, I would personally not want to store any.:D

Well, kind of storing, I agree though that it's potentially dangerous to store any
kind of explosive gas.
Like stan showed the WFC could also be made to provide gas 'on demand', thus
storing as little gas as possible.
By shortening the number of pulses to the VIC and at the same time increasing the
interval inbetween the pulse bursts the cell would 'only' provide enough gas to
keep the motor running at the required speed, be it at idle or full throttle.
That way you would only store a minimum amount of gas and when there's a
pressure drop at the intake of the motor, indicating that the throttle is opening,
the number of pulses to the VIC increases, thus supply meets demand.
But, as you say, the best thing would be to sort of skip directly to the injectors,
if only the basics are known regarding resonant action voltage/current/frequency
etc then it's basically only your imagination that stops you from applying the tech
on all kinds of vehicles, motors etc etc.  

Quote from Lynx on September 20th, 2012, 10:12 AM

A simple case of learning how to crawl before you can stand up and walk.

My point exactly.  None of us absolutely knows how to harness the energy that is all around us.  The WFC and VIC are something we can focus on until, not by accident, but by careful, deliberate thoughtful action we can reproduce and understand.

Later this evening I'm hoping to brainstorm out loud some ideas, concepts, theories that are floating around in my head.  I'm going to consider mostly Tom Bearden's Massless Displacement Current and what I understand so far about Ed Leedskalnin's theories.  Like Russ has mentioned before, the answer is right there in front of our faces, we just can't see it because we been taught things that don't fit the real underlying principals that are there--whatever they may actually be.  I mean, for example, what if Ed is correct in that electrons don't actually exist...?  If he is correct and all the electronic things we know about still work, how would that be possible?  What I'm getting at is maybe, just maybe we need to look at the problem of building a functional VIC unit a different way.  Once we understand some alternative view of how the world works, then quite possibly making a VIC on the first try do what is intended, becomes not only a possibility but within a short time, a reality.

Quote from Dog-One on September 25th, 2012, 11:34 AM

Later this evening I'm hoping to brainstorm out loud some ideas, concepts, theories that are floating around in my head.

Bring it on :D

Quote from Lynx on September 25th, 2012, 02:06 PM

Quote from Dog-One on September 25th, 2012, 11:34 AM

Later this evening I'm hoping to brainstorm out loud some ideas, concepts, theories that are floating around in my head.

Bring it on :D

Yes it's like not seeing the forest because of the trees.:D