Jon Able has replicated the pulse train we see in stans patents and it is so clean its Beautiful!!!


Here is most all info you need as I explain what Jon did in this video, watch first please:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p1D-HIMqF0



frequency and gating single fed in to a bifilar coil to a full wave bridge rectifier then to 6 cells in series... my video explains this better so please watch it for all details.

Here is jon's videos and photos are attached:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKG70zfu1l4&feature=plcp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxQj-9aZU-Y&feature=plcp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6AXzE_75RM&feature=plcp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYrkPmyfBZU&feature=plcp

Jon:

Quote

My circuit is a Dave lawton Pwm, attached to 2 NAND gates, then a 800 volt 11 amp MOSFET.    On JLNaudin's circuit, I then removed the primary/secondary and put the bifilar in its place.   2 unhooked outputs of bifilar feed into a FBWR and outputs of FWBR feed into 7 pipes in series.   Positive of FBWR goes to outer first pipe, negative of FBWR goes to inner last pipe.

Jon's face book: http://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002436455786&_rdr

here is a shot of my try at it... got a nice double pulse...
[attachment=1355]

thanks! ~Russ

Hi Russ,
thanks for those very interesting.
The circuit diagram is similar to the lawton circuit. What i notice in the Able circuit is they use a low ohm resistor (50r) on the gate to the FET, the lawton circuit used a much larger gate resistor(820r? i think). I dont know the principles/methods on how to correclty drive a fet so went looking thru google,some electronics forums discuss 10 to 20ohm values are safe to use to help eliminate a ringing phenomenon in fet's while having a low enough gate resistance to charge/discharge the gate quickly enough.

From what i can gather from other electronics forums, the gate resistor is an important feature of driving a fet properly. electronics forums say that high gate resistors alter/ slow the charge/discharge time characteristic of the fet, perhaps the high resistor value in the lawton circuit might have been why others say they couldnt get their copy to work. Ive built a similar circuit except for that each 555 output separately are fed into an AND gate which in turn drives an irf840 FET(because its what ive got on hand to use.).

the able circuit doesnt specify which fet to use. could someone with the knowledge on how to choose a fet give some pointers on the characheristic of the fet to use?
ie, v, I, on resistance, switching speed.

Is there a calculator for the gate resistance to use so that when others use their own choice of FET they can drive it with intended results?

cheers

I think "suggest Jon to Russ Forum"

This is very exciting!  Photo3 is now my new phone wallpaper.:cool:

Nate

Quote from firepinto on April 28th, 2012, 05:22 PM

This is very exciting!  Photo3 is now my new phone wallpaper.:cool:

Nate

Haha nice!!! :) ~Russ

I am not using ANY resistor between the NAND gates and the MOSFET gate.  

Also, my 555 chips are completely separated - the gating wire was not attached between the two chips.   Only the NAND gates are combining the 555 signals.

The resonant signal was not easy to find, it took me 20 days.   It is not obvious, and it may - or may not - work with a digital scope.   I have an old analog scope I got on Ebay for $80.   I don't know if digital scopes will automatically filter out what you see on my videos.  It will need to be eventually tested, but I don't have a digital scope yet.  

Also, I see alot more background scope noise than Russ is seeing, but I think seeing that noise helps me - in a way.

NAND gate is a QUAD 2 input chip from Digi-Key -  N74F3037N (16pin).  

MOSFET was either a 600 or 800 volt.   Don't have the serial anymore, but I chose one with the lowest R(ds) that I could find.  Again, on Digikey.  
 
I have been told by DynoDon64 that the Dave Lawton PWM doesn't hold it's 50% duty cycle as you change the other dials - which explains why I ended up having to tweak all 4 dials.   Plus the resonant signal might be hidden (at first) for you until you turn the frequency divisions to 20 - 10 microseconds and work backwards.  But, be sure to get the rising pulse FIRST, then worry about hitting resonance.

The bifilar transformer is similar to JLNaudin's - a 5/8" diameter 8 inch ferrite rod - it is wrapped with 2 strands of enameled copper 24 AWG wire - side by side.  Not fun to wrap, but can be done in about 30 minutes if you use masking tape as you progress.    I found 12 rods on Amazon or Ebay for $55.    

I started my research with a primary/secondary, then a FBWR, then the bifilar, as you see on the circuit in Russ's video above.  
But, I couldn't get it to work, so that's why I removed the primary secondary, and repositioned the 1:1 bifilar in it's place, then left the FBWR where it was, and then hooked the output of the FBWR to the pipes.  In series worked better than parallel pipes, but there are too many combinations yet to try to say that is correct.  

I believe reactance for serial capacitors is higher than for parallel, but somebody else can do the math and double-check.   I really need to look up those calculations again.

The KISS method is what made me think to remove the 1st transformer.    

And as Russ says, check your probe placement.  

Sincerely,

Jon Abel

MOSFETs are voltage devices so the resistor in series with the Gate can act as a low pass filter to slow switching times ( either in combination with the parasitic capacitance of a PCB or using very small value like 2-3 pf ). As Jon is driving his FET straight from the gate his output switching is very fast. That's is likely one reason we see the noise on his wave forms. If you add a resistor (and small cap to gnd) in series you can slow the switching time of the FET. In power supply design this is often done to reduce noise that is generated (like 3-10ohms in combination with a few pf of parasitic pcb capacitance).
As Stan used power transistors, likely because the power MOSFETs of today were not available, I wonder how that affected his results. Given these low frequencies probably not much. However, one advantage of a transistor is that you don't have to operate it in saturation (meaning like a MOSFET is either on or off). I often have problems driving low resistive coils and needing to limit current. I add resistance in series with the coil but this will limit the amplitude of the switching voltage. If you control the base current of the power transistor you can limit the current switching in the coil. Basically a gain adjustment.

My question is what is the advantage of using bifilar winding? Is it because even though you wind it 1:1 in terms of turns you actually get a voltage gain? So you are winding the primary next to the secondary? How many turns? What is the resistance of the primary?

This very interesting results you are getting.

Thanks for sharing

Hey Russ,
 
The signal should be as stated by S. Meyers " High frequency pulses build a rising staircase DC potential across the electrodes of the cell.
pulsating, unipolar electric voltage field in which the polarity does not pass beyond an arbitrary ground, whereby the water
molecules within the capacitor are subjected to a charge of the same polarity and the water molecules are distended by their
subjection to electrical polar forces"
 
The Stair Case is only part of it. "Unipolar" and your "Arbitrary" Ground are the most important... and I do not use a FWBR and the PS is a 12V Battery.
 
As you can see in the attached '(By Channel)
A: 137.5V
B: 118.75
A Unipolar Signal and the Arbitrary 0 is by +18.75V after Voltage Cancelation over the Cell /Water Molecule.  I would love to see these Signals over a Spectrum Anyliser....

[attachment=1356]
 
Love your work!!!
 
Rob
(YouTube Nick: sstubbby)

Jon able this Amazing work Cheer!!! Right Trace to success

to Russ
You will test Jon Able circuit with microwave oven transformer or ignition coil and change diode in HV????

50KV30A diode DIV
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/High_voltage_diode_-_50_kV,_30_A_peak

thanks
geenee

Is it possible to download a copy of the Circuit you are using? The Circuit I have been playing with has a few impedance issues. If interested, have a look at the attached. It is partially in German; where I am located.

There are approximately 186 per choke wound over 7.5 inches of the 5/8" diameter, 8" inch rod.  Wire is .0201 inches in diameter or 24 AWG.  

Resistance across each of the chokes is 1.2 ohms.   Not sure why, since (5/8" * pi * 186 = 366 inches, or 30.49 feet of wire per choke.   24 AWG wire is 25.67 milliohms per foot which come out to 781.25 milliohms.  About half of what I measure.    Strange.

NAND is a 30 ohm driver.

To Jon Abel

I need information all of your test to test by myself.
about this video "Scalable Rapid Hydrogen Production Replicated at Fargo ND University"

Please post schematics pic or detail of mosfet(model?),mosfet driver,diode model,transformer power supply, chokes, your PLL circuit,frequency resonant?.

Thanks alots
geenee

I found the MOSFETS I was using at the time.   It was one of these 3.

1. 800 Volt 9 amp 160 watt
STP10NK80Z

2. 600 Volt 4 amp 25 watt
STP4NK60ZFP

3. 400 Volt 10 amp 124 watt
IRF740PBF

Quote from jonabel1971 on April 28th, 2012, 07:41 PM

I am not using ANY resistor between the NAND gates and the MOSFET gate.  

Also, my 555 chips are completely separated - the gating wire was not attached between the two chips.   Only the NAND gates are combining the 555 signals.

The resonant signal was not easy to find, it took me 20 days.   It is not obvious, and it may - or may not - work with a digital scope.   I have an old analog scope I got on Ebay for $80.   I don't know if digital scopes will automatically filter out what you see on my videos.  It will need to be eventually tested, but I don't have a digital scope yet.  

Also, I see alot more background scope noise than Russ is seeing, but I think seeing that noise helps me - in a way.

NAND gate is a QUAD 2 input chip from Digi-Key -  N74F3037N (16pin).  

MOSFET was either a 600 or 800 volt.   Don't have the serial anymore, but I chose one with the lowest R(ds) that I could find.  Again, on Digikey.  
 
I have been told by DynoDon64 that the Dave Lawton PWM doesn't hold it's 50% duty cycle as you change the other dials - which explains why I ended up having to tweak all 4 dials.   Plus the resonant signal might be hidden (at first) for you until you turn the frequency divisions to 20 - 10 microseconds and work backwards.  But, be sure to get the rising pulse FIRST, then worry about hitting resonance.

The bifilar transformer is similar to JLNaudin's - a 5/8" diameter 8 inch ferrite rod - it is wrapped with 2 strands of enameled copper 24 AWG wire - side by side.  Not fun to wrap, but can be done in about 30 minutes if you use masking tape as you progress.    I found 12 rods on Amazon or Ebay for $55.    

I started my research with a primary/secondary, then a FBWR, then the bifilar, as you see on the circuit in Russ's video above.  
But, I couldn't get it to work, so that's why I removed the primary secondary, and repositioned the 1:1 bifilar in it's place, then left the FBWR where it was, and then hooked the output of the FBWR to the pipes.  In series worked better than parallel pipes, but there are too many combinations yet to try to say that is correct.  

I believe reactance for serial capacitors is higher than for parallel, but somebody else can do the math and double-check.   I really need to look up those calculations again.

The KISS method is what made me think to remove the 1st transformer.    

And as Russ says, check your probe placement.  

Sincerely,

Jon Abel

Jon, whose JLNaudin, can you link us to his work? It would be of interest as well.

Quote from Jeff Nading on April 29th, 2012, 12:19 PM

Quote from jonabel1971 on April 28th, 2012, 07:41 PM

I am not using ANY resistor between the NAND gates and the MOSFET gate.  

Also, my 555 chips are completely separated - the gating wire was not attached between the two chips.   Only the NAND gates are combining the 555 signals.

The resonant signal was not easy to find, it took me 20 days.   It is not obvious, and it may - or may not - work with a digital scope.   I have an old analog scope I got on Ebay for $80.   I don't know if digital scopes will automatically filter out what you see on my videos.  It will need to be eventually tested, but I don't have a digital scope yet.  

Also, I see alot more background scope noise than Russ is seeing, but I think seeing that noise helps me - in a way.

NAND gate is a QUAD 2 input chip from Digi-Key -  N74F3037N (16pin).  

MOSFET was either a 600 or 800 volt.   Don't have the serial anymore, but I chose one with the lowest R(ds) that I could find.  Again, on Digikey.  
 
I have been told by DynoDon64 that the Dave Lawton PWM doesn't hold it's 50% duty cycle as you change the other dials - which explains why I ended up having to tweak all 4 dials.   Plus the resonant signal might be hidden (at first) for you until you turn the frequency divisions to 20 - 10 microseconds and work backwards.  But, be sure to get the rising pulse FIRST, then worry about hitting resonance.

The bifilar transformer is similar to JLNaudin's - a 5/8" diameter 8 inch ferrite rod - it is wrapped with 2 strands of enameled copper 24 AWG wire - side by side.  Not fun to wrap, but can be done in about 30 minutes if you use masking tape as you progress.    I found 12 rods on Amazon or Ebay for $55.    

I started my research with a primary/secondary, then a FBWR, then the bifilar, as you see on the circuit in Russ's video above.  
But, I couldn't get it to work, so that's why I removed the primary secondary, and repositioned the 1:1 bifilar in it's place, then left the FBWR where it was, and then hooked the output of the FBWR to the pipes.  In series worked better than parallel pipes, but there are too many combinations yet to try to say that is correct.  

I believe reactance for serial capacitors is higher than for parallel, but somebody else can do the math and double-check.   I really need to look up those calculations again.

The KISS method is what made me think to remove the 1st transformer.    

And as Russ says, check your probe placement.  

Sincerely,

Jon Abel

Jon, whose JLNaudin, can you link us to his work? It would be of interest as well.

Russ is this close to the circuit Jon used, I found this in my archives, had it about a year, it's got your name on it and I gave it to someone here on this forum about three or four months ago.

Quote from Jeff Nading on April 29th, 2012, 12:19 PM

Jon, whose JLNaudin, can you link us to his work? It would be of interest as well.

Hey Jeff,

Here is JLNaudin's website:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/

Nate

Quote from firepinto on April 29th, 2012, 03:58 PM

Quote from Jeff Nading on April 29th, 2012, 12:19 PM

Jon, whose JLNaudin, can you link us to his work? It would be of interest as well.

Hey Jeff,

Here is JLNaudin's website:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/

Nate

Thanks Nate.

This is fairly close, but I didn't use any 220 or 880 resistors before the MOSFET, only 2 NAND gates.   Plus, that picture doesn't show the other bifilar coil.    That coil should be then connected to the FBWR and then the pipes in series.   I did use this Dave Lawton diagram to build my PWM, but another thing to remember is that 100 to 1000 ohm resistors should be placed in series with the potentiometers, since they can be turned down to 0 ohms, hence burning out your 555 chips.  

to Jon Abel

your input Volts is 6 Volts?

you have another video has more input volts and more hho gas result?

great work
Br,
geenee

To Peter

i thought the same.

why use air core or laminate core? low inductance 70 mH  
-i think "low inductance has low impedance when use high freq and need more capacitance than inductance"

why use series LC to make Low Impedance?
-need more amps for? need more electron for electrostatic field

why need resonance?if not resonant it can work?
-best low impedance cause high electron high electrostatic but i think not resonant i can work if high electron

why water capacitor has minimum amps?
-like charge capacitor.first charge capacitor -amps flow and second stop or slow amps flow when nearly full.

why use HV?
- if you charge capacitor 5 V. capacitor has 90-95% of you input volts(4.5-4.8V).If you charge 20KV -capacitor has about 19.6-19.8KV.it cause high positive plates and neg plates(electrostatic).but in water has leaked electron when charge. not like normal capacitor.it discharge faster than normal capacitor.

why use bifilar coil?
-like Peter.it combine capacitance and inductance.if you need more electrostatic more electron you will need more capacitance.bifilar coil is 2 copper wires not connect together cause it has dielectric of water it like capacitor.
related this video-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtI1CPBSm-o  

why put diode front of inductor?
-block electron back.same reason multiplier voltage circuit(diode and capacitor).

why use low freq?
-ask new question.why can't use high freq?i don't know.i think"about impedance".

why use word "charging choke"?
-inductor relate to charge capacitor.this is charging capacitor circuit.

thanks
geenee

Quote from 42n8 on May 2nd, 2012, 10:31 AM

Russ,
I've been interested in the WFC project for about a day or so and I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the team. I trust that you don't find this to be too presumptive.

Firstly, nomenclature is important because it conveys detail to the reader. Much of Stans work is deliberately obfuscated so you must read between the lines.

The bifilar wound coil is not a choke; rather it is an electrostatic oscillator. This was first described by Tesla around the late 1800s.

You will find that most wire wound resistors are formed this way in order to minimise inductive reactance. The windings are essentially 180 degrees out of phase, which more or less cancels out any inductance.

The bifilar coil also exhibits a very low inductance value due to the cancellation effect, regardless of the fact that it is formed around a high permeability core.

However, the device exhibits a high interwinding capacitance, which with the stray inductance forms a resonant circuit at some frequency.

Let's recap shall we:
An inductor stores a charge in its magnetic field and when the magnetic field collapses the stored EMF (not voltage) collapses it induces an opposing current into the circuit.

A capacitor stores electrons in its electrostatic field (not current). When the electrostatic field collapses (discharges), electrons are released which tends to maintain the voltage.

In essence then, the bifilar wound coil looks more like a capacitor that doesn't block DC than an inductor. However because there is some inductance the device will resonate but it cannot oscillate due to the blocking diode - hence its name.

At resonation the voltage builds with each pulse, which if left in the on-state for a period, would cause the coil insulation to break down. Effectively, we are delivering a controlled rising amplitude pulse train to the load and you will notice that the voltage rises and then starts to fall in accordance with the Time Constant of the FET circuit.

The next pulse raises the voltage further until the capacitor (bifilar coil) is charged up and the decay process repeats.

When the frequency is changed, notice that the time is lengthened or shortened but the waveform remains the same. That's because the only thing that really changed was the FET controlled Time Constant.

Further notes:
When winding bifilar coils it is absolutely essential that the distance between the windings (if any) is kept as constant as possible across the whole coil. Any significant variance will affect your ability to reproduce any model you do get operational.

At the relatively low frequency required for this system, don't pay too much attention to skin effect in the calculations

There is some question about the AWG29 quoted for this device. Since we know that the device is being used as a voltage amplifier (intensifier unobfucsated) it is very likely that multi-coated wire was used to increase reliability. It's also likely that the polymer coating used 25 years ago was thicker as it may have been less capable. If problems become apparent the solution will be to add a few extra turns on to the coil because the interwinding capacitance will be somewhat lower.

Jon,
Capacitors in Series: (1/Ctotal) = (1/C1) + (1/C2) + (1/C3)...
Capacitors in parallel: Ctotal = C1 + C2 + C3...

Inductors in series: Ltotal = L1 + L2 + L3...
Inductors in parallel: (1/Ltotal) = (1/L1) + (1/L2) + (1/L3)...

Resistors in series: Rtotal = R1 + R2 + R3...
Resistors in parallel: (1/Rtotal) = (1/R1) + (1/R2) + (1/R3)...

Hope this helps


Cheers

Peter

Excellent input! Thanks a  lot!

Additionally the EEC in the upper coil part in parallel to the coil makes a major change for resonance behaviour because it can shortcut the upper bifilar wound coil.

bussi04

Thanks for the input.   C, L and R series and parallel equations are pretty basic, but it's good to know people are thinking in terms of a destructive LRC circuit.  

Since water acts as the resistor, this form of water splitting is a true Electrical Engineering problem - and becomes less of a chemistry problem.  

Keep building and testing, folks, the economy isn't getting any better.

Quote from bussi04 on May 3rd, 2012, 07:36 AM

Quote from 42n8 on May 2nd, 2012, 10:31 AM

Russ,
I've been interested in the WFC project for about a day or so and I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the team. I trust that you don't find this to be too presumptive.

Firstly, nomenclature is important because it conveys detail to the reader. Much of Stans work is deliberately obfuscated so you must read between the lines.

The bifilar wound coil is not a choke; rather it is an electrostatic oscillator. This was first described by Tesla around the late 1800s.

You will find that most wire wound resistors are formed this way in order to minimise inductive reactance. The windings are essentially 180 degrees out of phase, which more or less cancels out any inductance.

The bifilar coil also exhibits a very low inductance value due to the cancellation effect, regardless of the fact that it is formed around a high permeability core.

However, the device exhibits a high interwinding capacitance, which with the stray inductance forms a resonant circuit at some frequency.

Let's recap shall we:
An inductor stores a charge in its magnetic field and when the magnetic field collapses the stored EMF (not voltage) collapses it induces an opposing current into the circuit.

A capacitor stores electrons in its electrostatic field (not current). When the electrostatic field collapses (discharges), electrons are released which tends to maintain the voltage.

In essence then, the bifilar wound coil looks more like a capacitor that doesn't block DC than an inductor. However because there is some inductance the device will resonate but it cannot oscillate due to the blocking diode - hence its name.

At resonation the voltage builds with each pulse, which if left in the on-state for a period, would cause the coil insulation to break down. Effectively, we are delivering a controlled rising amplitude pulse train to the load and you will notice that the voltage rises and then starts to fall in accordance with the Time Constant of the FET circuit.

The next pulse raises the voltage further until the capacitor (bifilar coil) is charged up and the decay process repeats.

When the frequency is changed, notice that the time is lengthened or shortened but the waveform remains the same. That's because the only thing that really changed was the FET controlled Time Constant.

Further notes:
When winding bifilar coils it is absolutely essential that the distance between the windings (if any) is kept as constant as possible across the whole coil. Any significant variance will affect your ability to reproduce any model you do get operational.

At the relatively low frequency required for this system, don't pay too much attention to skin effect in the calculations

There is some question about the AWG29 quoted for this device. Since we know that the device is being used as a voltage amplifier (intensifier unobfucsated) it is very likely that multi-coated wire was used to increase reliability. It's also likely that the polymer coating used 25 years ago was thicker as it may have been less capable. If problems become apparent the solution will be to add a few extra turns on to the coil because the interwinding capacitance will be somewhat lower.

Jon,
Capacitors in Series: (1/Ctotal) = (1/C1) + (1/C2) + (1/C3)...
Capacitors in parallel: Ctotal = C1 + C2 + C3...

Inductors in series: Ltotal = L1 + L2 + L3...
Inductors in parallel: (1/Ltotal) = (1/L1) + (1/L2) + (1/L3)...

Resistors in series: Rtotal = R1 + R2 + R3...
Resistors in parallel: (1/Rtotal) = (1/R1) + (1/R2) + (1/R3)...

Hope this helps


Cheers

Peter

Excellent input! Thanks a  lot!

Additionally the EEC in the upper coil part in parallel to the coil makes a major change for resonance behaviour because it can shortcut the upper bifilar wound coil.

bussi04

Yes peter, good info, thanks.
I was also wondering if you had any comment on the EEC/alternate power switch?

Here's my newest video with more details on how to hit resonance.  I am using a diode this time.   I also wound a simple primary and secondary over the top of the bifilar.   I used electric tape to separate them.  That's it.  

I used a combination of Dave Lawton's PWM and JLNaudin's transformer layout, which I explain in detail on this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvxvHLh-k5k&feature=youtu.be

thanks Jon for details
Cheer!!!